Jose Mari/Spanish players abroad
Richard H.
so few Spaniards transfer out of Spain.
Offhand I can only think of Amor and Ferrer as examples of Spanish players
abroad.
I guess we'll never see Raul at Juventus or Morientes at Arsenal or
anything like that.
-Richard
Bill Bride
Richard H. <su...@netset.com> wrote in message
news:susan-20129...@dyn-206-183-228-086.cmh.netset.com...
Good! I can't imagine Raul in any other uniform other than Real Madrid's.
Max Attar Feingold
unto all:
>As Jose Mari is set to leave my beloved Atletico for Milan, I wonder why
>so few Spaniards transfer out of Spain.
>Offhand I can only think of Amor and Ferrer as examples of Spanish players
>abroad.
Mostly they don't do that well, the truth be told. For example, Cesar
Gomez and Marcelino Elena are doing pretty poorly for Roma and
Newcastle, respectively. Both are decent players, but they don't play.
There's something in the Spanish character that makes them want to stay
at home. Same goes for Italians, for the most part.
Max Attar Feingold
maf6 at cornell dot edu
http://almonaster.netpedia.net/mfeingol/
"One crucial issue for voters to ponder is this:
Whose finger do you want on the Alt-Control-Delete button?" - Al Gore
Max Attar Feingold
quoth unto all:
>> There's something in the Spanish character that makes them want to stay
>> at home. Same goes for Italians, for the most part.
>
>I tend to agree with your assessment, but I don't think it says
>anything in particular about the Spanish character or the quality
>of Spanish players.
>
>Plain and simple, I think the reason so few Spaniards play abroad
>is the same reason few Mexicans play abroad: their respective
>leagues tend to over-value them by paying them higher salaries
>than clubs abroad would be willing to. This isn't a criticism
>of the quality of Spanish players (as I think there are some
>excellent ones that can do well in any other league), but its
>merely a by-product of being one the richest leagues in the
>World and not having the players to match that status.
That's a somewhat limited way to view things. I'm not so sure that
Spanish clubs overvalue their homegrown players, which is what you
appear to be claiming. There are a lot of clubs in Spain who prefer to
import cheap Community talent rather than developing or purchasing
Spanish players.
Forced to come up with a comprehensive answer, I think there are three
factors involved here
1) Spaniards are in general very Spain-centered, in the sense that they
truly believe that life in Spain is better than life elsewhere. And
with the exception of Italy and (perhaps) England, they feel that
performing well in la Liga is more important than performing well in any
other league. It's a naive, friendly nationalism, but it's definitely
part of the Spanish character and it influences their players' choice of
clubs.
2) Spanish clubs' salaries are as high as any other league in Europe.
This applies to foreigners as well as Spaniards, which is why I say
there's no over-valuing going on, but it does make it more difficult for
Spanish players to be tempted by megabucks abroad. Again, Italy is an
exception here, as evidenced by Jose Mari's salary.
3) Spanish players are not cheap in terms of transfer fees, so it's more
cost efficient for Italian teams to buy French, Russian or Serbian
players (for example) than Spaniards of comparable quality. This has
changed in recent years, with players from every latitude becoming more
and more expensive. This, in my opinion, is the main cause for the
growing number of Spanish players who in recent years have started to
play abroad - they've suddenly become affordable.
Teka12
>so few Spaniards transfer out of Spain.
>Offhand I can only think of Amor and Ferrer as examples of Spanish players
>abroad.
>
>anything like that.
>
The only spanish players that leave Spain are the ones that are kicked out of
their clubs. Jose Mari was sentenced by the public of the Calderon about a
month ago and he knew it. Ferrer and Amor were kicked out by Van Gaal.
Just think about it, what can a spanish player achieve in a foreign land that
they cannot achieve in Spain?. Lets take your Raul example. What can any soccer
club in the world offer Raul that he cannot get at Real Madrid?. Titles, money,
prestige, quality of life???? Spanish players won't move abroad because in most
cases it means to sacrifice their quality of life. It ain't easy to freeze your
ass in your average boring northern european country where they don't serve
alcohol after 10 pm when you can get Sun, Sand, Surf, Sangria, Senoritas and
Soccer in Spain (not necessarily in that order).
Alex Mizuki
[snip - few Spanish players abroad]
> Mostly they don't do that well, the truth be told. For example, Cesar
> Gomez and Marcelino Elena are doing pretty poorly for Roma and
> Newcastle, respectively. Both are decent players, but they don't play.
> There's something in the Spanish character that makes them want to stay
> at home. Same goes for Italians, for the most part.
I tend to agree with your assessment, but I don't think it says
anything in particular about the Spanish character or the quality
of Spanish players.
Plain and simple, I think the reason so few Spaniards play abroad
is the same reason few Mexicans play abroad: their respective
leagues tend to over-value them by paying them higher salaries
than clubs abroad would be willing to. This isn't a criticism
of the quality of Spanish players (as I think there are some
excellent ones that can do well in any other league), but its
merely a by-product of being one the richest leagues in the
World and not having the players to match that status.
Alex Mizuki
Huw Morris
> Just think about it, what can a spanish player achieve in a foreign land that
> they cannot achieve in Spain?. Lets take your Raul example. What can any soccer
> club in the world offer Raul that he cannot get at Real Madrid?. Titles, money,
> prestige, quality of life???? Spanish players won't move abroad because in most
> cases it means to sacrifice their quality of life. It ain't easy to freeze your
> ass in your average boring northern european country where they don't serve
> alcohol after 10 pm when you can get Sun, Sand, Surf, Sangria, Senoritas and
> Soccer in Spain (not necessarily in that order).
What's really funny is that I think you believe all this. Yup, given the
chance, all us Brits would hop over the channel and come and live in Spain.
Raul would leave Real Madrid for the same reason that a player would leave
Juventus, Bayern or Man Utd.
Huw
Huw Morris
> Mostly they don't do that well, the truth be told. For example, Cesar
> Gomez and Marcelino Elena are doing pretty poorly for Roma and
> Newcastle, respectively. Both are decent players, but they don't play.
>
> There's something in the Spanish character that makes them want to stay
> at home. Same goes for Italians, for the most part.
Ferrer is doing well at Chelsea. (Even though Chelsea as a whole are
struggling in the League this year.) To be fair, I can't think of many other
examples.
Huw
José M. Malo
Teka12 wrote in message
<19991220221901...@ng-fh1.aol.com>...
>The only spanish players that leave Spain are the ones that are kicked
out of
>their clubs. Jose Mari was sentenced by the public of the Calderon
about a
>month ago and he knew it. Ferrer and Amor were kicked out by Van Gaal.
Don't forget De la Peña. He left Barcelona last year to Lazio and now is
playing in Marseille.
Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
Alex Mizuki
> That's a somewhat limited way to view things. I'm not so sure that
> Spanish clubs overvalue their homegrown players, which is what you
> appear to be claiming. There are a lot of clubs in Spain who prefer to
> import cheap Community talent rather than developing or purchasing
> Spanish players.
Think about it -- if there are some _Spanish_ teams that prefer to
buy cheaper Community players, what would compell a team from the
outside to want to do differently? As far as development, I don't
think develypmental players are candidates to play abroad anyway --
or at least shouldn't be.
> 1) Spaniards are in general very Spain-centered, in the sense that they
> truly believe that life in Spain is better than life elsewhere. And
> with the exception of Italy and (perhaps) England, they feel that
> performing well in la Liga is more important than performing well in any
> other league. It's a naive, friendly nationalism, but it's definitely
> part of the Spanish character and it influences their players' choice of
> clubs.
That may be true of the majority of players in any league: if
they get the same compensation staying at home, in all likelihood
they will. However, you should always see a handful of enterprising
players that go abroad.
> 2) Spanish clubs' salaries are as high as any other league in Europe.
> This applies to foreigners as well as Spaniards, which is why I say
> there's no over-valuing going on, but it does make it more difficult for
> Spanish players to be tempted by megabucks abroad. Again, Italy is an
> exception here, as evidenced by Jose Mari's salary.
Sure, but like in Italy and England, the quality of the foreign
players are greater than those of domestic players. Certainly
an all-foreign team in any of these leagues would crush an all
native team, yet the incomes for top foreigners and top domestics
are similar.
> 3) Spanish players are not cheap in terms of transfer fees, so it's more
> cost efficient for Italian teams to buy French, Russian or Serbian
> players (for example) than Spaniards of comparable quality. This has
> changed in recent years, with players from every latitude becoming more
> and more expensive. This, in my opinion, is the main cause for the
> growing number of Spanish players who in recent years have started to
> play abroad - they've suddenly become affordable.
Actually, the above point is exactly what I'm claiming not from a
Spain-centered perspective but from the perspective of other clubs.
The valuation in peoples minds of players like Kiko, Raul or Luiz
Enrique are simply not as high outside of Spain as it is from the
perspective of Spanish clubs.
Alex Mizuki
m2
> On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:17:57 -0500, su...@netset.com (Richard H.) quoth
> unto all:
>
> >As Jose Mari is set to leave my beloved Atletico for Milan, I wonder why
> >so few Spaniards transfer out of Spain.
> >Offhand I can only think of Amor and Ferrer as examples of Spanish players
> >abroad.
>
> Mostly they don't do that well, the truth be told. For example, Cesar
> Gomez and Marcelino Elena are doing pretty poorly for Roma and
> Newcastle, respectively. Both are decent players, but they don't play.
>
> There's something in the Spanish character
Quality of life, probably...
m2
m2
> 1) Spaniards are in general very Spain-centered, in the sense that they
> truly believe that life in Spain is better than life elsewhere.
I really do.
m2
m2
> Raul would leave Real Madrid for the same reason that a player would leave
> Juventus, Bayern or Man Utd.
No, he wouldn't. You can pay Raul 20 times what he wins at Real Madrid and
he won't go to your team. The same happens with Hierro. Something very
hard has to happen for Raul to sign for another club.
> Huw
m2
Teka12
>It ain't easy to freeze your
>> ass in your average boring northern european country where they don't serve
>> alcohol after 10 pm when you can get Sun, Sand, Surf, Sangria, Senoritas
>and
>> Soccer in Spain (not necessarily in that order).
>
>What's really funny is that I think you believe all this.
No, I don't believe it lad. I LIVE IT.
Yup, given the
>chance, all us Brits would hop over the channel and come and live in Spain.
One million limeys (legal or illegal or should I say registered or non
registered) call southern Spain home. If you are still in England, well that's
your problem not mine.
>Raul would leave Real Madrid for the same reason that a player would leave
>Juventus, Bayern or Man Utd.
>
>Huw
You haven't answered my question yet: what can Juventus , Bayern or Manchester
offer Raul that that he doesn't already have in Madrid?. Why go out for cheap
wine when you already have champagne in the fridge?. eh?.
Teka12
So do I dude. You only have to leave Spain to realize the miserable life that
most foreigners live, having dinner at 6pm and going to bed at 10pm. What the
hell is that?. I believe the Feingold character has been living in the US of
fucking A (sorry but I learnt my ABC's in Brooklyn) for too long and he is
confusing quality of life with driving a Camaro instead of a Seat Ibiza.
Usually that mental confusion is welll cured with the passage of time.
arturo thiele-sardina
>It ain't easy to freeze your
>ass in your average boring northern european country where they don't serve
>alcohol after 10 pm when you can get Sun, Sand, Surf, Sangria, Senoritas and
>Soccer in Spain (not necessarily in that order).
You must be referring to the Uruguayos that play for Sevilla who at 0400 hrs in the morning were arrested for injuring a man at a nightclub!
Then the Palanganas wonder why they are in last place?
Saludos Y Viva Er Beti Manque Pierda!
Arturo
---
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Arturo Thiele-Sardiña 901 San Antonio Rd. MS UFMT02-03
Supplier Manager Palo Alto, CA 94303-4900
PDC and MSO Operations Phone: (510) 623-5609
Americas & Asia Pacific Logistics Pager: (408) 699-4406
Sun Microsystems Computer Company Fax: (510) 623-2784
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Doan Nguyen
> Sure, but like in Italy and England, the quality of the foreign
> players are greater than those of domestic players. Certainly
> an all-foreign team in any of these leagues would crush an all
> native team, yet the incomes for top foreigners and top domestics
> are similar.
Hmmm...don't agree with this. Look at Chelsea for an example of how an
all-foreign team is doing domestically. Contrast this with Leeds where
most
of their players have come from their youth system.
You do have a point about the overvaluation of home-based players, which
is
true in the Premiership. Bryan Robson was quoted as saying he wanted to
buy
a player from a lower league club and was asked for a ridiculous amount
of money.
He plumped for Zeige for 4million which was a pretty good bit of
business, obviously
his wages weren't tuppence though.
Doan
Benny
> From : Richard H. <su...@netset.com>
>As Jose Mari is set to leave my beloved Atletico for Milan, I wonder
>why so few Spaniards transfer out of Spain. Offhand I can only think
La Liga clubs money, only Italian clubs can match them for wages so the
best Spanish players will cost an absolute fortune in transfer fees and
wages.
>of Amor and Ferrer as examples of Spanish players abroad.
Both at the end of their careers like Gullit, Zola, Vialli amongst
others when they arrived in England. Martin Vasquez is the only 'top'
Spanish player I can think of that left Spain for another league when
he joined Torino in the early 90's and then went back to Spain, maybe he
also played in France, I can't remember.
>I guess we'll never see Raul at Juventus or Morientes at Arsenal or
>anything like that.
Only on free transfers. Certainly not in England as they are way behind
La Liga and Serie A in wages. Despite all hype Keane earns less than
half of what Del Piero makes in a week.
> Subject : Jose Mari/Spanish players abroad
> From : Alex Mizuki <ami...@bellsouth.net>
>Sure, but like in Italy and England, the quality of the foreign
>players are greater than those of domestic players. Certainly
>an all-foreign team in any of these leagues would crush an all
>native team, yet the incomes for top foreigners and top domestics
>are similar.
In England an all native (i.e English not UK) team would match up very
well against an all foreigner team.
>Actually, the above point is exactly what I'm claiming not from a
>Spain-centered perspective but from the perspective of other clubs.
>The valuation in peoples minds of players like Kiko, Raul or Luiz
>Enrique are simply not as high outside of Spain as it is from the
>perspective of Spanish clubs.
>
>Alex Mizuki
You mean like Albertini in Italy for example?:-)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right."
Ashleigh Brilliant
Max Attar Feingold
broadcast:
>Think about it -- if there are some _Spanish_ teams that prefer to
>buy cheaper Community players, what would compell a team from the
>outside to want to do differently?
Nothing. You're agreeing with my reason #3. Buying a Spanish player
when there's a cheap and comparable alternative is like buying NT Server
to run CGI's.
>As far as development, I don't
>think develypmental players are candidates to play abroad anyway --
>or at least shouldn't be.
Jose Mari is still a developmental player, for the most part. I wonder
what Milan think they see in him. Perhaps they like his athleticism and
think they can make a player out of him, too. Personally, I don't think
he'll do much for them. They'll sell him at cost or for less in a year.
>> 1) Spaniards are in general very Spain-centered, [...]
>
>However, you should always see a handful of enterprising
>players that go abroad.
I think it's starting to happen. Five years ago there's no way
relatively insignificant players like Helguera or Jose Mari would have
gone to Italy in the first place.
>> 2) Spanish clubs' salaries are as high as any other league in Europe.
>
>Sure, but like in Italy and England, the quality of the foreign
>players are greater than those of domestic players. Certainly
>an all-foreign team in any of these leagues would crush an all
>native team, yet the incomes for top foreigners and top domestics
>are similar.
Not sure about the comparable income argument. The foreigners make more
than the Spaniards, for the most part (McManaman, Anelka, the de Boer's,
Piojo, etc.), although some of this is just the fact that their
contracts are more recent.
>> 3) Spanish players are not cheap in terms of transfer fees [...]
>
>Actually, the above point is exactly what I'm claiming not from a
>Spain-centered perspective but from the perspective of other clubs.
>The valuation in peoples minds of players like Kiko, Raul or Luiz
>Enrique are simply not as high outside of Spain as it is from the
>perspective of Spanish clubs.
I disagree. The problem is that all Spanish players have high buyout
clauses these days to impede the frequent transfers of national players
from small clubs to larger clubs that occurred in the old days. Spanish
players are indeed very expensive, but no Spanish club would pay the
massive buyout clauses either.
And given the recent interest of several Italian clubs for several
Spanish players recently, I don't think their valuation is particularly
low abroad. Capello would love to have Luis Enrique, for example, but
he's just too darn expensive.
Huw Morris
> No, he wouldn't. You can pay Raul 20 times what he wins at Real Madrid and
> he won't go to your team. The same happens with Hierro. Something very
> hard has to happen for Raul to sign for another club.
Firstly, I don't believe that for a second. You can probably say that it would
cost twice his current salary for Raul to move. Secondly, you could say that
about players like Paul Scholes etc, who grew up supporting Man Utd and came
up through the youth team. Why do you think Roy Keane stayed when he could
have earned far more in Spain or Italy?
Open your eyes to the wider world out there. I love Spain, but I don't think
I'd want to live the rest of my life there.
Huw
Huw Morris
> So do I dude. You only have to leave Spain to realize the miserable life that
> most foreigners live,
Funnily, the residents of North Korea are equally convinced they live in the
best country in the world.
Huw
Huw Morris
José M. Malo
world to live is Spain, but I admit that probably 90% of English people
think that England is, 97% of Usans think that the States are, and so
on...
I think that three are the main factors to explain the few presence of
Spanish players abroad : the big identification of Spaniards with the
Spanish way of life, the huge wages that Spanish clubs pay to their
players and the high level of the Spanish League. These three reasons
could apply for most of the foreign players that come to our league too.
Bruce Scott TOK
|> One million limeys (legal or illegal or should I say registered or non
|> registered) call southern Spain home. If you are still in England, well
|> that's your problem not mine.
|>
and then also wrote:
|> So do I dude. You only have to leave Spain to realize the miserable life
|> that most foreigners live, having dinner at 6pm and going to bed at
|> 10pm. What the hell is that?. I believe the Feingold character has been
|> living in the US of fucking A (sorry but I learnt my ABC's in Brooklyn)
|> for too long and he is confusing quality of life with driving a Camaro
|> instead of a Seat Ibiza. Usually that mental confusion is welll cured
|> with the passage of time.
Gee, this guy (or gal) is trying to convince us that Spainiards are even
more arrogant than we are. Amazing.
Huw Morris <huw.m...@rl.ac.uk> wrote:
|> Funnily, the residents of North Korea are equally convinced they live in
|> the best country in the world.
exactly!
jmm...@mmm.com (José M. Malo) tries to bring his countrymen back to earth:
|> I share with you and m2 the opinion that the most wonderful place in the
|> world to live is Spain, but I admit that probably 90% of English people
|> think that England is, 97% of Usans think that the States are, and so
|> on...
|> I think that three are the main factors to explain the few presence of
|> Spanish players abroad : the big identification of Spaniards with the
|> Spanish way of life, the huge wages that Spanish clubs pay to their
|> players and the high level of the Spanish League. These three reasons
|> could apply for most of the foreign players that come to our league too.
In Raul's case, everything comes together. He gets to play not only in
his own country but also in his home town. He is a city boy, and for
him Madrid is The Center. Add to that the fact that he always starts,
and that he has a solid position also on the Spanish national team. Add
to that the fact that he is better paid than he would be anywhere else.
For players to go somewhere else to play, the attractions (money,
exposure) must outweigh the drawbacks (different food, language). For
someone like Roque Santa Cruz, Germany is strange, but in Munich you can
get about with English (which he does) and it is easy to avoid German
food (which I have done for > 12 years). And his career gets a big
boost. This is even true for Elber.
For a Spanish player to come here and have to speak a foreign language
(I don't have the impression from my visits to Spain that this is so
widespread there, compared to Germany let alone Holland), and probably
take a cut in pay, and give up the home cooking is asking a lot. The
mediocre ones might be interested, but in that case the eastern
Europeans are always cheaper (Germany has historical ties to many of
those countries, especially Croatia but also the Czech Republic, Poland,
Serbia and Slovenia).
On the other hand, why second rate Dutch and Belgians are apparently so
cheap here is a mystery to me. Those aren't exactly third world
countries.
--
cu,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
m2
> m2 wrote:
> > No, he wouldn't. You can pay Raul 20 times what he wins at Real Madrid and
> > he won't go to your team. The same happens with Hierro. Something very
> > hard has to happen for Raul to sign for another club.
>
> Firstly, I don't believe that for a second. You can probably say that it would
> cost twice his current salary for Raul to move. Secondly, you could say that
> about players like Paul Scholes etc, who grew up supporting Man Utd and came
> up through the youth team. Why do you think Roy Keane stayed when he could
> have earned far more in Spain or Italy?
Obviously it depends on the player. I agree with you. Raul or Scholes
wouldn't go away, but Keane or Luis Enrique would do.
> Open your eyes to the wider world out there. I love Spain, but I don't think
> I'd want to live the rest of my life there.
I want to. I can hardly think of a better place. Why don't you want?
(curiosity)
> Huw
m2
m2
> Teka12 wrote:
> > So do I dude. You only have to leave Spain to realize the miserable life that
> > most foreigners live,
>
> Funnily, the residents of North Korea are equally convinced they live in the
> best country in the world.
Huw, do you think that life in Spain is bad?
> Huw
m2
m2
> I share with you and m2 the opinion that the most wonderful place in the
> world to live is Spain, but I admit that probably 90% of English people
> think that England is, 97% of Usans think that the States are, and so
> on...
Obviously they are wrong :)
kk
Huw Morris
> Huw, do you think that life in Spain is bad?
God no. But I don't see that it's any better than any of the 20 most developed
nations on this planet.
Huw
Max Attar Feingold
broadcast:
>tek...@aol.com (Teka12) wrote:
>
>|> So do I dude. You only have to leave Spain to realize the miserable life
>|> 10pm. What the hell is that?. I believe the Feingold character has been
>|> living in the US of fucking A (sorry but I learnt my ABC's in Brooklyn)
>|> for too long and he is confusing quality of life with driving a Camaro
>|> instead of a Seat Ibiza. Usually that mental confusion is welll cured
>|> with the passage of time.
My newsreader filters out aol.com posts, so I only read this by proxy.
I find it amusing though that I find myself attacked by people like
teka12 after writing a paragraph like this:
"Spaniards are in general very Spain-centered, in the sense that they
truly believe that life in Spain is better than life elsewhere. [...]
It's a naive, friendly nationalism, but it's definitely
part of the Spanish character"
Thank you, teka12, for proving my point.
>For a Spanish player to come here and have to speak a foreign language
>(I don't have the impression from my visits to Spain that this is so
>widespread there, compared to Germany let alone Holland)
Yes, this is very true. Spaniards have immense problems with the
English language, compared to the Portuguese or the Northern Europeans
that you mention. Part of the problem in my opinion is the lucrative
foreign film dubbing industry, which completely shields Spaniards from
foreign languages until 4th or 6th grade.
P.S. - Lest anyone misinterpret my posts, I love Spain, the Spanish and
their character. But love does not preclude honesty.
Huw Morris
> Yes, this is very true. Spaniards have immense problems with the
> English language, compared to the Portuguese or the Northern Europeans
> that you mention. Part of the problem in my opinion is the lucrative
> foreign film dubbing industry, which completely shields Spaniards from
> foreign languages until 4th or 6th grade.
When it comes to foreign languages, my experience is that the Spanish are only
marginally better than the English! I've never seen any subtitles on Spanish
television, it's always dubbed. I was told that it was because Franco decried
that only the Spanish language could be heard on Spanish TV. By the time he
died, the Spanish people were just used to dubbing instead of subtitles.
Whether that is true or not, I have no idea.
Incidently Max, I know some people in *Britain* that have immense problems
with the English language!
Right, that's enough off-topic posts on the subject of Spain from me!
Huw
Max Attar Feingold
broadcast:
>When it comes to foreign languages, my experience is that the Spanish are only
>marginally better than the English!
Heheh, probably. Although my experience with English people has
generally been with people from off the beaten track, atypical folks who
could speak a variety of languages.
>I've never seen any subtitles on Spanish
>television, it's always dubbed. I was told that it was because Franco decried
>that only the Spanish language could be heard on Spanish TV. By the time he
>died, the Spanish people were just used to dubbing instead of subtitles.
>Whether that is true or not, I have no idea.
I don't know is this is true or not, since it was before my time and if
there's something I noticed in Spanish school, it's that their textbooks
don't talk about Franco very much, once way or another. Surprising.
I suspect it is true, though, mainly because it's right in line with his
policies and because dubbing offered a perfect channel for massive film
censorship and editing, which was very much a habit in Spain before
1975.
Teka12
>best country in the world.
>
>Huw
Hell, even the people from Manchester think likewise. Talk about cluelesness.