Sport or Art form? The debate continues...
DonaldC476
Sport or Art Form? The debate continues...
Is figure skating a sport or an art form? This is a debate that wil probably
continue for as long as figure skating exists, and I'll warn you up front that
I don't intend to cast a particularly convincing ballot on the subject at this
writing. I will, however, point out a few things that might add some new
complexion - and perhaps some more confusion - to the old question, and I will
ask a new question that I hope will result in a long and interesting
thread......
Whatever else it is, figure skating is clearly an art form. Like ballet, it is
highly creative and interpretive, requires a great deal of time - and perhaps
some natural talent - to master, and every now and then produces a genius.
Like ballet, it is a media thru which the performer communicates with his or
her audience; the figure skater essentially tells a story (however abstract)
while out on the ice. Like ballet, a great deal of pleasure can be derived
from the performance, even in the total absence of judges, scores, medals, and
world titles.
The ballet analogy breaks down at a certain point, however, since it's very
difficult to make the argument that ballet is a "sport". Ballet dancers do not
compete with eachother in any sense while on stage (I suppose they audition for
roles in the company, but this isn't competition in the strictest sense), and a
ballet aficionado doesn't "root" for his or her favorite dancer. Moreover,
the off-stage personna of a dancer isn't public a proposition as that of the
off-field (or off-ice) personna as a successful athlete.
To confuse the issue even further, observe that most of the activities we
commonly call "sport" have their own intrinsic beauties, and hence one might
argue that these are art forms as well. They can be appreciated for these
intrinsic beauties as well as for their winners, losers, stats, and final
scores. Is there not a certain artistry, for example, in an Air Jordan
slam-dunk? A perfectly executed 6-2-3 around-the-horn double play? A
beautiful on-side kick (perhaps the most exciting play in football)? Might you
not pay to see some of these, even if the competitive winner/loser aspect was
taken away? (Hint: the NHL seems to have been quite successful at this; its
"nite of hockey" series - in which players show off their skills, but no hockey
is actually played - seems to draw pretty well). Indeed, there are some sports
- diving and gymnastics come immediately to mind - in which, like figure
skating, winners and losers are determined by subjective appraisal of their
intrinsic beauties. Yet, there soesn't seem to be the same confusion in those
sports; I don't believe that diving and gymnastics fans have their own
sport-vs-art-form debate.
The above arguments not withstanding, I'm going to vote "sport" on this issue,
since, as a figure skater, this makes me a "sportsman", something that fits
like a shiny new uniform. By nature, I'm highly creative but not at all
competitive, and never had the desire to play baseball or football (indeed, I
rarely watch).
I have noticed one intriguing difference between figure skating and most other
sports; Major League baseball, the NBA, and the NFL all seem to tolerate - and
perhaps even exault - jerks in their ranks. It would be rather easy to fill
page after page with the names of big-time pro athletes in these sports who
have made utter asses of themselves with their non-sport related behavior.
Figure skating doesn't seem to tolerate this, i.e. it quickly expunges skaters
who make asses of themselves (Tonya Harding and Christopher Bowman are two
examples that come immediately to mind).
Here's a more perplexing - and perhaps troublesome - question. Given that
figure skating is a sport, is it essentially a woman's sport? The overwhelming
majority of figure skating fans are women, and womens events seem to draw more
interest than mens (this may be a result of the fact that the US has
traditionally dominated the womens singles competition, but aside from Scott
Hamilton and Brian Boitano, haven't been especially strong in the mens).
Moreover, recent press (such as the notorious Gretzky/Leetch/McDonalds
commerical) has suggested that there's something effeminate - perhaps even
"sissyish" - about figure skating. Why is this? I am tempted to offer my own
rear end - which has endured plenty of "contact" with the ice - as ample
evidence that this is in fact a contact sport. Indeed, I can attest by virtue
of first hand experience that becoming a competent figure skater is a
substantially bigger challenge than becoming a competent weightlifter (clearly
a sport with more than a little machismo to it). It may be one of life's
little ironies, but having what is normally considered a good physique (I'm
6'1", 190 Lb.) is actually a disadvantage in this sport; the best male figure
skaters seem to be built like squirrels rather than linebackers.
I don't know quite what to make of this; I'm neither gay nor homophobe, and
care not a whit about the sexuality of anyone sharing the ice with me. I am
perhaps as "macho" as the next guy (although I try not to be obnoxious about
it). Still, while I have always loved "the Waltz of the Flowers" I find it
perhaps too effeminate to skate as a single male skater (I'm planning on
skating it with a woman). Does this say anything about my own subjective
prejudices???
Comments or Flames, anyone???
Don Cardoza
Oakland, NJ
Donal...@aol.com
Phefner
I vote "art.: Why? Because sports are scored. Ladies skating, mens' skating,
and pairs all have some pretty precise technical requirements, mainly the jumps
and the spins, as well as the artistic aspect of these disciplines. A missed
required element in the SP of any of these disciplines is an *automatic*
deduction. Ice dance doesn't have this sort of precision in its scoring. It's
more subjective, and depends more on the likes and dislikes of the particular
judge. They are like the newspaper critics who critique the ballet. Ice dance
is an art that's *presented* as a sport. There's nothing wrong with something
being an art. I wouldn't love T&D, K&P, U&Z, the Duchesneys, or B&K if I didn't
like this art form.
Patricia
Hoteach
To Donald - Don't know how much you know about ballet - but
comparing figure skating to
ballet, is tricky at best. Figure skating contains elements of
ballet, and the best skater are undoubtedly good, if not great
dancers. Once saw John Curry perform with one of British
ballets finest dancers, Anthony Dowell. Dowell did not fare
well - he looked small and insignificant next to Curry! However,
Dowell could do whatever Curry could do, easier and better -
whether he could skate, who knows? But, member of Curry's
company at time, Katerine Healy, was one of most superb young
dancers ever saw - and her spiral on ice (yes, she was QUITE
AN ACCOMPLISHED figure skater as well) was far beyond,
in line and position and stretch and length, any spiral done today.
She also did a spiral, backwards - not sure any skater does this
on regular basis.
Moreover - dancers do, indeed, compete! And compete
very seriously. All most famous dancers of last 30 years have
come to attention of general public, after having won most
prestigious dance competitions: Varna (Bulgaria) Competition,
being the most important event - held every 4 years, also Prix de Lausanne,
among many , many others. Dancers are eligible until 29 ( in most
competitions, I believe) and can
compete even if already performing in professional companies.
Seems a bit unfair - pitting raw amateurs against seasoned pros,
but, heh, no one is being forced.
Doesn't do much to clear up issue of differences between
ballet and figure skating! I am crazy about figure skating - but
to be honest, it isNOT longer clearly a sport. If had just simple
element contests or challenges, as has been done in past -
jump challenges, spin challenges, spiral challenges, etc. -
then it might remain a real sport. Ice dancing is not a sport.
It was introduced just a few Olympics ago - and now we see,
it was not such a good idea.
Here, I am going to live dangerously! As much as I love
figure skating, think it no longer has place in Olympic competition.
Feel same about synchronized swimming - it is lovely to watch -
and though it STEMS from a sport - it is not JUST a sport. Ballet is based
on basic human activities - walking, running, jumping, etc. - but
no one would argue that ballet is the same as jogging, power walking,
or long jumping. It has gone beyond - and so has skating.
Was figure skating EVER really just a sport? I don't think so -
and that is the problem!
OTOH - time may take care of problem - as jumps get more
emphasis, and artistry less and less - could become more and
more of just a "sport." We may be seeing last of the great "figure"
skaters, and new generation of technicians.
And then, there
won't be any more argument. It won't look much like ballet -
but it will be a sport.
And we probably won't see any more
Dorothy Hamills or Paul Wylies. And that will be a shame.
Have a strong feeling, we won't be having this discussion, 20
years from now. Both audiences and judges are leaning towards
the technicians and away from the artistic skaters - case in
point - Who won gold in single's? Right, Kulik and Lipinski -
so maybe the argument is already over -
Joanie (ex-dancer) in L.A.
DellaG
>Ballet dancers do not
>compete with eachother in any sense while on stage (I suppose they audition
>for
>roles in the company, but this isn't competition in the strictest sense),
But, they do have ballet competitions!
DellaG
>A missed
>required element in the SP of any of these disciplines is an *automatic*
>deduction. Ice dance doesn't have this sort of precision in its scoring.
>It's
>more subjective, and depends more on the likes and dislikes of the particular
>judge. They are like the newspaper critics who critique the ballet. Ice
>dance
>is an art that's *presented* as a sport. There's nothing wrong with something
>being an art. I wouldn't love T&D, K&P, U&Z, the Duchesneys, or B&K if I
>didn't
>like this art form.
But, according to reports, in June the ISU will be voting to include manditory
deductions in some of the Ice Dancing (Compulsary dance). Does that change it
then from an Art to a Sport?
Michalle S Gould
DellaG (del...@aol.com) wrote:
: >A missed
:
Perhaps clarification of the fact that face to face skating is much to be
preferred and makes for a higher technical basemark than endless side to
side skating would be helpful. And specific deductions for STOPPING on the
ice would be great. That should prevent my favorite couple, K & O from
doing a little fifteen second stopping section right in the middle of
their program next year! It's certainly hurting THEIR technical basemark
right now, but without a deduction there's nothing to force them to face
that fact! I still can't believe they didn't change that section for the
Olympics.
Argh.
Michalle
Albert C.E. Parker
DonaldC476 <donal...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980306042...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> Sport or Art Form? The debate continues...
>
> Is figure skating a sport or an art form?
>Moreover,
> the off-stage personna of a dancer isn't public a proposition as that of
the
> off-field (or off-ice) personna as a successful athlete.
Well, there certainly is a community of dance enthusiasts to whom the
off-stage activities of the dancers are as interesting and important as the
off-ice activities of figure skaters. But they are probably a smaller
group than the population of figure skating fans.
>Indeed, there are some sports
> - diving and gymnastics come immediately to mind - in which, like figure
> skating, winners and losers are determined by subjective appraisal of
their
> intrinsic beauties. Yet, there soesn't seem to be the same confusion in
those
> sports; I don't believe that diving and gymnastics fans have their own
> sport-vs-art-form debate.
I don't know about diving, but there is at least as much controversy about
judging in gymnastics as there is in figure skating, although I have not
seen any recent allegations of "block judging." This is true even though
gymnastics seems to have a more detailed code, with every possible trick
given a value (if it doesn't have a value in the code, you don't get any
credit for it, although there are provisions for getting new skills rated
between code revisions). There is a controversy in gymnastics about
"artistry." Some successful competitors are being attacked for lack of
that quality. There is grumbling that the current code of points has made
artistry too difficult, especially in the women's floor exercise event.
Like figure skating, women's floor exercise is done to music (well, at
least it's done with music in the background—figure skating programs are
generally more closely linked to their music than most women's floor
exercise routines), but it's only 1½ minutes long, and the current
complaint is that there isn't time for real "dance," which is supposed to
be one of the requirements.
> Here's a more perplexing - and perhaps troublesome - question. Given
that
> figure skating is a sport, is it essentially a woman's sport? The
overwhelming
> majority of figure skating fans are women, and womens events seem to draw
more
> interest than mens
This is true of gymnastics, also, at least in the US, on both the
attendance and the participation sides, and it was true before the US
women's team finished 1st and men's team finished 6th at the 1996 Olympics.
I wonder about diving. Two of the US women divers at the 1996 Olympics
were former gymnasts. It may be that more girls are attracted to sports in
which they can excel but in which the competition isn't one-on-one, on an
individual or team basis. In judged sports, like figure skating and
gymnastics, you don't compete against and beat an individual opponent, as
you do in team sports and in sports like tennis. But that's also true of
all racing sports (track and field, cycling, rowing, alpine and
cross-country skiing; in speed skating you race against a single opponent
but beating her doesn't "win" you anything) as well.
> I am tempted to offer my own
> rear end - which has endured plenty of "contact" with the ice - as ample
> evidence that this is in fact a contact sport. Indeed, I can attest by
virtue
> of first hand experience that becoming a competent figure skater is a
> substantially bigger challenge than becoming a competent weightlifter
(clearly
> a sport with more than a little machismo to it). It may be one of life's
> little ironies, but having what is normally considered a good physique
(I'm
> 6'1", 190 Lb.) is actually a disadvantage in this sport; the best male
figure
> skaters seem to be built like squirrels rather than linebackers.
This, too, is also true of gymnastics. Women's gymnastics has the highest
injury rate of all college sports (yes, higher than football), and
competitive gymnasts, even at the lower levels, almost always have some
kind of injury. (As far as outsiders are concerned. To gymnasts, it's not
an injury just because it hurts; it's only an injury if you can't train at
all.) The physics of the sport rewards small bodies in both men's and
women's gymnastics to an even greater degree than in figure skating.
> I don't know quite what to make of this; I'm neither gay nor homophobe,
and
> care not a whit about the sexuality of anyone sharing the ice with me. I
am
> perhaps as "macho" as the next guy (although I try not to be obnoxious
about
> it). Still, while I have always loved "the Waltz of the Flowers" I find
it
> perhaps too effeminate to skate as a single male skater (I'm planning on
> skating it with a woman). Does this say anything about my own subjective
> prejudices???
There does seem to be a difference between figure skating and gymnastics
here. I am not aware of any widespread suspicion that gymnastics is an
"effeminate" sport or that many of the male competitors are homosexuals.
Men's floor exercise isn't performed to music, but that hardly seems to be
a large enough difference to be decisive. There's no "pairs" event in
gymnastics, either. And gymnastics is more demanding in terms of strength
than figure skating (or any other sport), although men's gymnastics is
rather unbalanced in concentrating mostly on upper-body strength.
Considering that there are differences between men and women, it hardly
seems strange to me that some music would suit women better than men, and
other music would suit men better than women, just as some music suits
individual men or women better than other music does.
PegLewis
If you consider that only the top few skaters in any of the various disciplines
come anywhere close to being artists on ice (more so in the pro ranks, of
course, because their emphasis is on the art or entertainment aspect), I think
it's a silly argument. It's a sport, pure and simple, and a rare few can
transcend into art. We are lulled into thinking otherwise because the skaters
who get the TV coverage and win the competitions have been - usually - the ones
that are able to handle the technical well enough to bring out their own
artistic concepts.
Watch all but the top six and see if you still think it's an art form.
FWIW...
Peg
(PegL...@aol.com)
Visit The All-Kwan Network at http://members.aol.com/AllKwanNet/index.html
Visit Ljudmillia's text archives (courtesy Don Edwards) at
http://home.swbell.net/icedance/millia.htm
SmallovianNGB site coming soon!
Che
On 6 Mar 1998 14:18:29 GMT, "Albert C.E. Parker" <ac...@clark.net>
wrote:
>I don't know about diving, but there is at least as much controversy about
>judging in gymnastics as there is in figure skating,
There may be controversy, but it is not NEAR so high-profile as that
in skating. In fact, I've never once seen a news article on a
challenge to a judging result in gymnastics.
Che
On 6 Mar 1998 04:21:46 GMT, donal...@aol.com (DonaldC476) wrote:
>Sport or Art Form? The debate continues...
>
>Is figure skating a sport or an art form?
Yep. That it is.
Sandra Loosemore
pegl...@aol.com (PegLewis) writes:
> If you consider that only the top few skaters in any of the various
> disciplines come anywhere close to being artists on ice (more so in
> the pro ranks, of course, because their emphasis is on the art or
> entertainment aspect), I think it's a silly argument. It's a sport,
> pure and simple, and a rare few can transcend into art. We are
> lulled into thinking otherwise because the skaters who get the TV
> coverage and win the competitions have been - usually - the ones
> that are able to handle the technical well enough to bring out their
> own artistic concepts.
OTOH, I don't think this means that *only* those top few skaters have
any artistic ability. I think it only means that competitive skating
rewards technical skills more than "artistry", and that skaters who
have "artistry" but lack technical ability either wind up languishing
in obscurity while they struggle with the jumps they need to be
competitive, or else they get discouraged and quit. As proof that
such skaters do exist, I will cite David Liu, Alizah Allen, Jeff
Merica, and Gig Siruno.
-Sandra
Benjamin Smith
On Thu, Mar 5, 1998 11:21 PM, DonaldC476 <mailto:donal...@aol.com> wrote:
>Sport or Art Form? The debate continues...
>
>Is figure skating a sport or an art form? This is a debate that wil
probably
>continue for as long as figure skating exists, and I'll warn you up front
that
>I don't intend to cast a particularly convincing ballot on the subject at
this
>writing. I will, however, point out a few things that might add some new
>complexion - and perhaps some more confusion - to the old question, and I
>will
>ask a new question that I hope will result in a long and interesting
>thread......
I think in most other sports, except for gymanstics, and possibly some
others, the goal is very specific. Get more points, lift heavier weights,
stay up longer. Also, most other sports are not done to music. Skating is
always done to music. In gymastics, pole vaults, balance beam, uneven
parallel bars, for men, rings, are not done to music. Only the floor
exercise is.
I see much art in figure skating and my bias is towards the more
individually artistic skaters. The sport part comes in with the spins speed
and positioning, jumps, footwork. And the point basis for these skills.
That's a lot of what is being judged. The artistic part is interpretation
of music, and flow of movement.
So, an easy answer to a difficult question, it is both. But to what
proportion? I'm not tackling that one. And I think there is a lot of
subjectivity involved in that question, and some judges lean towards one
more of these aspects over the other. It is possible to fairly balance both
by guidelines of the rulebooks.
Ben S.
ama...@ix.netcom.com
The question is not well defined. Figure skating under what conditions?
I can paint faster than you, so painting's a sport. When they filmed
Chariots Of Fire, they didn't try to get the actually fastest runners
they could, they got actors who looked good doing that, so distance
running is an art.
You have to define the circumstances, otherwise there's no answer. If
you mean figure skating as it's normally performed, it's a mixture.
Benjamin Smith
On Fri, Mar 6, 1998 1:12 PM, Sandra Loosemore <mailto:san...@shore.net>
wrote:
> As proof that
>such skaters do exist, I will cite David Liu, Alizah Allen, Jeff
>Merica, and Gig Siruno.
>
You're right. I've never heard of Jeff Merica or Gig Siruno and have only
seen David Liu and Alizah Allen's names in passing.
Ben S.
Sk8Maven
Hoteach wrote:
> company at time, Katerine Healy, was one of most superb young
> dancers ever saw - and her spiral on ice (yes, she was QUITE
> AN ACCOMPLISHED figure skater as well) was far beyond,
> in line and position and stretch and length, any spiral done today.
> She also did a spiral, backwards - not sure any skater does this
> on regular basis.
I suppose you mean "any female skater in the "eligible" ranks"? Back
spirals *are* done by both "eligible" and professional *men* -- of all
skaters, Elvis Stojko has attempted them rather frequently. Todd
Eldredge does them. Mark Mitchell used to have real beauties both
forward and backward. And at least until the end of this season, there's
Paul Wylie, who does *all* extension moves so spectacularly well....
Maven
Sue Sebastian
> >
> >Is figure skating a sport or an art form? This is a debate that wil
> probably
> >continue for as long as figure skating exists, and I'll warn you up front
> that
> >I don't intend to cast a particularly convincing ballot on the subject at
> this
> >writing. I will, however, point out a few things that might add some new
> >complexion - and perhaps some more confusion - to the old question, and I
> >will
> >ask a new question that I hope will result in a long and interesting
> >thread......
>
> others, the goal is very specific. Get more points, lift heavier weights,
> stay up longer. Also, most other sports are not done to music. Skating is
> always done to music. In gymastics, pole vaults, balance beam, uneven
> parallel bars, for men, rings, are not done to music. Only the floor
> exercise is.
>
> I see much art in figure skating and my bias is towards the more
> individually artistic skaters. The sport part comes in with the spins speed
> and positioning, jumps, footwork. And the point basis for these skills.
> That's a lot of what is being judged. The artistic part is interpretation
> of music, and flow of movement.
>
> So, an easy answer to a difficult question, it is both. But to what
> proportion? I'm not tackling that one. And I think there is a lot of
> subjectivity involved in that question, and some judges lean towards one
> more of these aspects over the other. It is possible to fairly balance both
> by guidelines of the rulebooks.
>
> Ben S.
Hi - mostly a lurker, but this is an interesting topic. As a former
gymnast, I can point out that it is almost exclusively sport. There are
"exceptions" in gymnastics (i.e., great artistic expression from some
ladies) but it is NOT the norm. (Only women's floor exercise is set to
music, BTW.) Men are simply competing in acrobatic endeavor or "sport".
IF women's artistry is taken into account, which is debatable in the
gymnastics I've seen in the last 20 years, it is not an overriding
scoring element. I rarely ever watch gymnastics anymore because of the
loss of maturity and artistry. I switched to figure skating
instead...and now I'm getting worried about skating's artistic future!
;-)
I think one of figure skating's problems in the "art" vs. "sport" debate
is its use of two sets of marks: technical and presentation (please
don't flame me, I've read the postings that explain the reasons skating
judging is as it is). I think that most people DO wonder, though, about
any "sport" that uses something like presentation scores as such a HIGH
proportion of a competitor's final scores and placement. I think it is a
valid question. Is there a skater out there who can explain it from
their perspective?
Sue (who really likes figure skating the way it is)
remove nospam from address to e-mail
Michalle S Gould
Che (C...@nospam.com) wrote:
: On 6 Mar 1998 14:18:29 GMT, "Albert C.E. Parker" <ac...@clark.net>
: wrote:
:
: >I don't know about diving, but there is at least as much controversy about
: >judging in gymnastics as there is in figure skating,
: There may be controversy, but it is not NEAR so high-profile as that
: in skating. In fact, I've never once seen a news article on a
: challenge to a judging result in gymnastics.
Are you joking? There's been scores changed because of appeals by coaches
to referees - I think a couple times even more than one competitor had
gone by when an old score was changed. There was a lot of criticism of the
balance beam and floor exercise individual finals at this year's olympics.
The reason it isn't so high-profile as in skating is because skating is a
much more popular sport on a year in year out basis.
For REAL controversy see rhythmic gymnastics. Now THERE's a sport that
really is fixed. But it's new, and it just needs time. There was a fight
this year because out of the two Ukrainian competitors, both of whom had
mothers who are coaches/judges - one got her mother as the Ukrainian
judge, so the other (the defending Olympic medalist!) refused to compete
in the Rhytmic Worlds, supposedly because her mother was ill. She
apparently wanted it to be HER mother who was the Ukrainian judge for
Worlds. Of course, in my opinion, the one who actuallyGOT her mother as
the judge - and who won Worlds - was very deserving. But the results at
the Olympics last year, I found befuddling!
Boxing certainly has it's share of controversy - allegations of 'fix', a
refereed sport, decided by judges.
Michalle
Phefner
>means that competitive skating
>rewards technical skills more than "artistry", and that skaters who
>have "artistry" but lack technical ability either wind up languishing
>in obscurity while they struggle with the jumps they need to be
>such skaters do exist, I will cite David Liu, Alizah Allen, Jeff
>Merica, and Gig Siruno.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Excellent post. I have been thinking that ladies, mens and pairs competition
*is* sport; only ice dance, IMHO, is more accurately described as an "art." But
I've seen David Lui skate, and it's a darn shame I didn't get to see him skate
again. He's a wonderful artist on ice who struggled with the technical and
athletic aspect of mens' singles.
Patricia
Shushun0va
In article <6dqedg$hv1$3...@news.nyu.edu>, msg...@is6.nyu.edu (Michalle S Gould)
writes:
> Of course, in my opinion, the one who actuallyGOT her mother as
the judge - and who won Worlds - was very deserving.
Maybe, at Worlds but not at the Olympics. Her mom should not have been
judging her.
>>But the results at the Olympics last year, I found befuddling! <<
Because Petrova did not win much less medal? If that's it then I agree.
Jam
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I know that I'm the best, and I won because I am the best". - Tara Lipinski
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michalle S Gould
Shushun0va (shush...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <6dqedg$hv1$3...@news.nyu.edu>, msg...@is6.nyu.edu (Michalle S Gould)
: writes:
:
: > Of course, in my opinion, the one who actuallyGOT her mother as
: the judge - and who won Worlds - was very deserving.
:
: Maybe, at Worlds but not at the Olympics. Her mom should not have been
: judging her.
The one who won Worlds is different from the won who won the Olympics!
Vitrichenko won Worlds with her mother on the panel, and was deserving.
Serebrianskaya didn't get her mother on the panel and didn't attend
Worlds. She was NOT deserving of her Olympic gold, in my oh so humble
opinion.
: : >>But the results at the Olympics last year, I found befuddling! <<
:
: Because Petrova did not win much less medal? If that's it then I agree.
:
Baffling. She was extroardinary. I just don't get it.
But I'm sure we're about to be told that this isn't relevant to figure
skating!
And it's not really. So fair enough.
Michalle
Shushun0va
In article <6ds42q$5qv$3...@news.nyu.edu>, msg...@is6.nyu.edu (Michalle S Gould)
writes:
>The one who won Worlds is different from the won who won the
>Olympics!
Vitrichenko won Worlds with her mother on the panel, and was
>deserving.
Serebrianskaya didn't get her mother on the panel and didn't
>attend
Worlds.
I know that. I meant that Vitrichenko did NOT deserve to win the Olympics.
>She was NOT deserving of her Olympic gold, in my oh so humble
opinion.<
Then who was?
>>Baffling. She was extroardinary. I just don't get it.
But I'm sure we're about to be told that this isn't relevant to figure
skating! And it's not really. So fair enough.<<
I take it you're refering to Petrova.
Jam
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I know that I'm the BEST, and I won because I am the BEST". - Tara Lipinski
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Louis Epstein
Sandra Loosemore (san...@shore.net) wrote:
: pegl...@aol.com (PegLewis) writes:
:
: > If you consider that only the top few skaters in any of the various
: > disciplines come anywhere close to being artists on ice (more so in
: > the pro ranks, of course, because their emphasis is on the art or
: > entertainment aspect), I think it's a silly argument. It's a sport,
: > pure and simple, and a rare few can transcend into art. We are
: > lulled into thinking otherwise because the skaters who get the TV
: > coverage and win the competitions have been - usually - the ones
: > that are able to handle the technical well enough to bring out their
: > own artistic concepts.
:
: OTOH, I don't think this means that *only* those top few skaters have
: rewards technical skills more than "artistry", and that skaters who
: have "artistry" but lack technical ability either wind up languishing
: in obscurity while they struggle with the jumps they need to be
: competitive, or else they get discouraged and quit. As proof that
: such skaters do exist, I will cite David Liu, Alizah Allen, Jeff
: Merica, and Gig Siruno.
What about Jennifer Blount?
Louis Epstein
Albert C.E. Parker (ac...@clark.net) wrote:
: Men's floor exercise isn't performed to music, but that hardly seems to be
: a large enough difference to be decisive. There's no "pairs" event in
: gymnastics, either. And gymnastics is more demanding in terms of strength
: than figure skating (or any other sport), although men's gymnastics is
: rather unbalanced in concentrating mostly on upper-body strength.
So how do gymnasts do in weightlifting or decathlon,if they're the
strongest athletes of all?
Louis Epstein
Benjamin Smith (be...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: On Fri, Mar 6, 1998 1:12 PM, Sandra Loosemore <mailto:san...@shore.net>
: wrote:
: > As proof that
: >such skaters do exist, I will cite David Liu, Alizah Allen, Jeff
: >Merica, and Gig Siruno.
:
: You're right. I've never heard of Jeff Merica or Gig Siruno and have only
: seen David Liu and Alizah Allen's names in passing.
Siruno is a 3-time US Champion in skating figures!
Sk8Maven
Louis Epstein wrote:
> So how do gymnasts do in weightlifting or decathlon,if they're the
> strongest athletes of all?
On a strength-to-weight ratio basis, the ant is the strongest animal on
earth.
Maven
HILL JANET SWAN
>Sandra Loosemore (san...@shore.net) wrote:
>: OTOH, I don't think this means that *only* those top few skaters have
>: any artistic ability. I think it only means that competitive skating
>: rewards technical skills more than "artistry", and that skaters who
>: have "artistry" but lack technical ability either wind up languishing
>: in obscurity while they struggle with the jumps they need to be
>: competitive, or else they get discouraged and quit. As proof that
>: such skaters do exist, I will cite David Liu, Alizah Allen, Jeff
>: Merica, and Gig Siruno.
I know you knew I couldn't resist ......... Gig is one of my all time
favorites, and I sing his praises whenever an appropriate opening exists.
In addition to being a 3(?)time national Mens Figures Champion, he also
had the most glorious carriage and footwork I have ever seen, and spins to
die for. ...... better, even, than Scott Davis or Eldredge, or Wylie.
long. strong. perfectly centered. beautiful positions. still spinning.
still fast. still centered. still crisp. still spinning ....... and
exquisitely finished. He also had gorgeous *double* jumps and,
unfortunately, unreliable triples. That's why few people have heard
of him, and yet he is among the most accomplished men's skaters around.
janet
--
Blenda
In <B125DA6...@209.109.225.182>, "Benjamin Smith"
<be...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I see much art in figure skating and my bias is towards the more
>individually artistic skaters. The sport part comes in with the spins speed
>and positioning, jumps, footwork. And the point basis for these skills.
>That's a lot of what is being judged. The artistic part is interpretation
>of music, and flow of movement.
>
>So, an easy answer to a difficult question, it is both.
Here's my two cents on the art-vs-sport topic: It seems that a lot of
people think of "art" as something that looks beautiful; therefore if
it is nice to look at, it must be "artistic". I don't think this is
how artists think of it. Several members of my family are
professional artists of one kind or another, and I've gotten the
impression that their art is a very personal expression of their
thoughts and ideas. It doesn't matter whether it's beautiful or not.
What matters is that they're exploring an idea, an emotion, a mood, a
shape, a movement ... and it's complex, it's energy-consuming, and
pulls a lot out of their soul.
I do agree there is art in figure skating, but in eligible competitive
figure skating, the art is secondary. The main goal is to score well
in the competitions - do your elements and present them well. Any art
is a means to further that end. The artistic vision of the
choreographer is used to create a program that will showcase the
skater's strongest technical skills and score well in the presentation
mark. The artistic (i.e. expressive and interpretative) skills of the
skater are used to contribute to the presentation mark as well.
I think of competitive figure skating as primarily a sport because any
artistic vision is a servant to the technical elements; in other forms
of art, it's the other way around: the technique serves the artistic
vision.
--------------------------------------------------------------
~ blenda ~
blen...@hotmail.com
Phefner
>It seems that a lot of
>people think of "art" as something that looks beautiful; therefore if
>it is nice to look at, it must be "artistic". I don't think this is
>how artists think of it.
We don't--at least not this one, or any of my family members. I'm a costume
maker who (occasionally) paints avant-guard style paintings, one of my sisters
is a professional modern dancer, another sister is a sculptor, and our mother
is a graphic artist. We express ourselves. I'm fiery, intense, and emotional,
and that's what my pictures look like. Ditto for my sister's dances--she does
her own choreography. I think people in skating get confused about this
because of its balletic traditions. Some very expressive skaters I've seen are
A&P, K&P, U&Z. and the Duchesneys. These dance teams are not always "balletic"
but what they do *is* art. My problem is--how do you "score" these dancers? I
just happen to like these dancers and many others. That's subjective. They do
very difficult moves that require timing, strength, and balance, all of which
are commonly associated with sports. So I can have some opinions about this,
but it's not my place to get up on a soapbox and scream "this isn't a sport and
if you disagree with me I'll shoot you"!! :-)
Patricia
Benjamin Smith
On Tue, Mar 10, 1998 8:43 PM, Blenda <mailto:blen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Definitely an astute post.
>ere's my two cents on the art-vs-sport topic: It seems that a lot of
>people think of "art" as something that looks beautiful; therefore if
>it is nice to look at, it must be "artistic".
And I think this is a problem. I teach music appreciation in college from
time to time and the pleasant is thought of as beautiful art and the
unpleasant as just ugliness. Art can be unpleasant and ugly and harsh and
still be art due to the level of refinement and craft involved. Now an
artistically disturbing skater would be interesting, and I think Pasha and
Grinkov could pull it off.
I don't think this is
>how artists think of it. Several members of my family are
>professional artists of one kind or another, and I've gotten the
>impression that their art is a very personal expression of their
>thoughts and ideas. It doesn't matter whether it's beautiful or not.
>What matters is that they're exploring an idea, an emotion, a mood, a
>shape, a movement ... and it's complex, it's energy-consuming, and
>pulls a lot out of their soul.
>
All of this is true. But I think what differentiates an artist from a more
commercially minded practitioner of something that the term "art" could be
attached to is that the goal is not to create certain formulas within in
the genre and present them but to deal with these things that Blenda
mentions, often in a personal way, often in ways that challenge the person
creating the art, and often, those who will receive the art. Something
beautiful may not be challenging to the observer, but realizing and
recognizing the refinement within what is presented, the *subtleties*, is a
big part of it.
>I do agree there is art in figure skating, but in eligible competitive
>figure skating, the art is secondary. The main goal is to score well
>in the competitions - do your elements and present them well. Any art
>is a means to further that end. The artistic vision of the
>choreographer is used to create a program that will showcase the
>skater's strongest technical skills and score well in the presentation
>mark. The artistic (i.e. expressive and interpretative) skills of the
>skater are used to contribute to the presentation mark as well.
>
Yes, that's why Gary Beacom has problems, or Gary Beacom like skaters. I
think, for pros, though, art and sport become closer, sometimes skating
exhibitions showcase art of technical skills.
>I think of competitive figure skating as primarily a sport because any
>artistic vision is a servant to the technical elements; in other forms
>of art, it's the other way around: the technique serves the artistic
>vision.
>
Absolutely. Well put.
Ben S.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>~ blenda