Can Michelle try again in 2006?
Rocket Ron
it sounds like people are saying that this was Michelle's last chance. Is
this true? I know she will be older and possible so-called over-the-hill,
but what if does have the drive and motivation to make it and qualify for
the 2006 games will she be allowed?
Bummed,
Ron
Locutus of Borg
Of course she would be allowed, if she were to make the team.
What people are assuming is that she will retire at 21, since so many US
ladies' skater have disappeared before or around that age in the last decade.
What they're doing is extrapolating that the field is doing two 3/3s, and MK
"isn't" doing one. (Not that she hasn't landed them in practice; they're just
not on the radar in competition.) They're projecting that MK seems to have - to
them - hit a technical plateau and gone into a choreographic regression trying
to beat her Russian rival at her own game, while other skaters like Cohen and
Hughes have tried to beat Michelle at her old game with the choreography and
new move combinations.
I think Michelle could continue to do well, but she has to want to devote the
time to her craft, to going back to being the cutting edge in interesting
programs, to not trying to beat Slutskaya or any jumper at the others' game but
instead to make them try to beat her at hers.
This would probably entail locking Michelle into a rink for umpteen hours a
week, doing nothing but honing her skating programs, the result of which I'm
sure we'd all enjoy, but at what cost to Michelle, the curious individual
wishing to experience Life? That cost might be too high, and it's Michelle's
ultimate happiness that matters.
People (journalists, in particular) are thinking back to Michelle admitting to
not having the motivation all the time. They're thinking of what they consider
the unfathomable decision to compete without a coach, and thinking that means
she's lost her marbles instead of giving her credit for being independent.
They're sick of Michelle's human error forcing them to make a quick rewrite of
the happy ending story they'd undoubtedly already written - at least mentally -
for their report of the OOOOO ladies' final, and for making them tear up their
triumphant pre-written retrospective of her career. They want her to fit their
script.
They're projecting that skaters currently "are doing" two 3/3 combos in a
program and might start doing 3As, and they wonder if a skater in her 20s could
possibly add such things to her repertoire. If it could be done in the same
kinds of choreographically complex pieces that MK used to be known for, it
would be incredible. But is that a realistic dream?
Would Michelle want to put herself through it again? The reporters don't think
so because they wouldn't want to. The fans see her admit her crushing
disappointment and believe no one could be willing to go through it again.
But Michelle hasn't said what she thinks she's up to doing. So we don't know
what will happen.
Yes, it's possible to keep trying, and to stay in the top 3 in the USA. But it
won't be easy when all the young skaters have been using her as the role model,
using the moves that she made well-known in the country, and have been
designing programs to go after Michelle's strengths. Michelle will have to
out-Michelle not only herself, but the rest of the US field.
And then people are considering the inane absolute points system of marking
proposed during these games, which would favor jumping beans over complete
skaters, and supposing that Michelle's skill set might not be spectacular
enough to score well under such a system.
It's very complicated. But, yes, she could try again.
Peg
==
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Glen Robertson
"Locutus of Borg" <pegl...@aol.compurgator> wrote in message
news:20020226054255...@mb-cm.aol.com...
BottomLineGuySk8
>From: "Glen Robertson" ava...@owt.com
>Date: 02/26/2002 8:23 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <a5g24c$nq1$1...@news.owt.com>
>
>Yes it is complicated but I think she can win gold in 2006 at Torino .
Care to offer any reasons why you think she can win, especially insofar as Peg
just had so much info. to share?
Bottom Line Guy
Beware of posters who post only during the Olympics.
Mark Raso
few years, it has been a constant series of falls, missed jumps and
blunders. It is really embarrassing for M. Kwan and the sport. Every athlete
has their life cycle and each needs to recognize it. We saw in the Olympics
that Todd Eldridge was consistent on his falls. He needs to get out! So too,
M. Kwan, does not have the heart anymore to compete nor the desire.
MDR
"Rocket Ron" <rocke...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HbGe8.4906$2v6.5...@news1.west.cox.net...
Sally4sbb
>few years, it has been a constant series of falls, missed jumps and
>blunders.
Huh? What skater have you been watching? The one who has won 3 World titles
since the last Olympics? All three of those World titles won with clean
programs? And the last 2 with 3/3 in her programs?
SallyH
Shallah
news:3c7b9...@news1.prserv.net...
> M. Kwan has lost it for good. She needs to get out of the sport. In
the last
> few years, it has been a constant series of falls, missed jumps and
> blunders. It is really embarrassing for M. Kwan and the sport. Every
athlete
> has their life cycle and each needs to recognize it. We saw in the
Olympics
> that Todd Eldridge was consistent on his falls. He needs to get out!
So too,
> M. Kwan, does not have the heart anymore to compete nor the desire.
>
> MDR
Even with the mistakes Michelle was still good enough for 3rd. As I
recall the only female skater with a clean program was Sarah Hughes.
To be 3rd best at the olympics even when off says something about how
good the rest of Michelle's skating was. ALL the ladies have had
inconsistant skating this season. If that was reason enough to quit
they all would have to turn in their skates. As for Todd Eldredge he
had two gorgeous 3/3s in his LP and only fell on the quad. He has
everything that makes for a great skater but for the quad. It seems
these days that few men can still do a 3 axel/3 toe any more which is
sad as it was the gold standard for mens skating only a few years ago.
You might not miss him but many skating fans will and considering the
few quad jumpers among US men and even those lacking a consistant 3
axle the USFSA might miss him as well.
Shallah, who thinks Michelle should keep on skating in the elegible
ranks as long as she wants to.
~~~
"The important thing in the Olympic Games is not winning, but taking
part.
The essential thing in life is not conquering but fighting well."
-- Baron Pierre de Coubertin
TCAXEL
>I think Michelle could continue to do well, but she has to want to devote the
time to her craft, to going back to being the cutting edge in interesting
programs, to not trying to beat Slutskaya or any jumper at the others' game but
instead to make them try to beat her at hers.
>
>This would probably entail locking Michelle into a rink for umpteen hours a
week, doing nothing but honing her skating programs, the result of which I'm
sure we'd all enjoy, but at what cost to Michelle, the curious individual
wishing to experience Life? That cost might be too high, and it's Michelle's
ultimate happiness that matters.
This isn't really directed at Peg's post but is more a general question which
her post triggered:
Kwan is unique in that she has been near the top for practically 7-9 years, so
that IMHO the mental strain, more than the physical, is obviously a factor.
And she probably has more opportunites, choices, etc, in her life so that
spending 4-6 hours a day in an ice rink, in addition to conditioning,
cross-training, etc is probably something she doesn't look forward to. So I
don't necessarily disagree with Peg's points vis-a-vis Kwan. She has had a
full career in skating.
But in general, everybody keeps on saying how the sacrificies are so huge,
staying hours and hours in the rink/gym. Which I have no doubt is true. But
there seems to be some sort of "sexist" slant in that in figure skating, it is
perceived as such an overwhelming burden for the female skater to continue with
such an endeavor, indeed make it a "career". She somehow can't live life to
the fullest.
And yet if Joe Shmoe works 8 to 10 hours a day at his job, do we say he's not
experiencing Life? Or do people say that Dan Marino or Barry Bonds's cost
might be too high for dedicating so much time and training to their sport, even
though neither ever achieved the pinnacle of a Supberbowl or World Series ring?
(with Barry, there's still time). If Kobe Bryant doesn't win the NBA title
most sane people don't start screaming he should retire, or if Martina Hingis
chokes away the Austrailian Open, most people don't say "why is she still
playing tennis?"
Mind you, I'm talking at the elite level of atheletics, where money isn't quite
the same factor in being able to continue.
To most professional athletes it's part of their job, their "routine", their
off-season conditioning and training in order to focus during the regular
season. I think of people like Jerry Rice, Jackie Joyner, Cal Ripken Jr.,
Martina Navrawtilova, Carl Lewis, Michael Jordan, etc who have maintained a
high intense level of competitiveness for at least 10 years, and from what I've
read their training is very intense and "monklike" yet they seem to enjoy what
they do and thrive at it. I have no doubt they all spent the equivalent of a
working day training, practicing,etc. It just seems that figure skating is
still caught in that perception that a female champ really can't enjoy life
until after she "retires". That's probably true on some level for ANY athlete,
but I just find it curious that when it's been shown in other sports than many
women are getting into their physical stride in their twenties, in figure
skating it seems more like, "when are they going to retire?"
Yet you have Elvis Stojco and Todd Eldredge who have had long careers and IMHO
most people don't say to the same extent as with female skaters they haven't
"fullfilled" or "experienced life".
Isn't more now, that, the skating game really has changed at the elite level?
I mean, Nancy Kerrigan had the best performance of her life at '94 Lillihammer
when she was 24. Maria B. "peaked" at 26 with her '99 World triumph. And t.
Malinina had her best results at 26 or 27. And Kristie Yamaguchi, even as a
pro, it sure didn't seem to be such a stretch to say she was the *best* female
skater circa '94-'95, when she was 23 or 24 years old, as in still hitting most
of her jumps, (granted not in combination)
The conventional wisdom before was that swimmers and track and field athletes
peaked in their teens and early twenties. Now you have world records and
champs in the late twenties and early thirties, because there is both more
financial opportunities and better training, conditioning methods.
It would be curious to see if there would be a new generation of female
skaters who skate through at least their mid-twenties in the eligible ranks.
Theo
"As long as you have the mental game down, your techniques are solid,
physically all you need is just your body to be there with you." -Venus
Williams
Locutus of Borg
Just so you don't think *I* was being sexist... I would say the same thing were
it Yagudin who had expressed motivational doubts and had talked about wanting
to go to school and experience other things. But it wasn't a male, it was a
femal. Gender has NOTHING to do with MY comments.
Other people might be sexist in their thinking, but other than lusting after
male skaters, I don't have a sexist bone in my body.
>And yet if Joe Shmoe works 8 to 10 hours a day at his job, do we say he's not
>experiencing Life?
We might, if he said he was yearning to try other things. Has Joe mentioned
that? If not, why assume it?
> Or do people say that Dan Marino or Barry Bonds's cost
>might be too high for dedicating so much time and training to their sport,
>even
>though neither ever achieved the pinnacle of a Supberbowl or World Series
>ring?
>(with Barry, there's still time). If Kobe Bryant doesn't win the NBA title
>most sane people don't start screaming he should retire, or if Martina Hingis
>chokes away the Austrailian Open, most people don't say "why is she still
>playing tennis?"
Have any of those sports stars said the same things about wanting to experience
other things?
And last time I checked, Hingis is female.
>It just seems that figure skating is
>still caught in that perception that a female champ really can't enjoy life
>until after she "retires".
I think that's a pathetic state of mind, myself.
>It would be curious to see if there would be a new generation of female
>skaters who skate through at least their mid-twenties in the eligible ranks.
It could still happen.
TCAXEL
were it Yagudin who had expressed motivational doubts and had talked about
wanting to go to school and experience other things. But it wasn't a male, it
was a
femal. Gender has NOTHING to do with MY comments.
Like I said, my post wasn't directed specifically at all the content of your
post. But the reference to Michelle wanting to experience life just triggered
my general musings about the subject, vis-a-vis coments about when female
skaters are going to retire/turn pro, etc and the the threads here on RSSIF
regarding Kwan retiring/going forward/ etc.
>Other people might be sexist in their thinking, but other than lusting after
>male skaters, I don't have a sexist bone in my body.
*****************************
No, that's sexual harassment. ;O)
>
>>And yet if Joe Shmoe works 8 to 10 hours a day at his job, do we say he's
>not
>>experiencing Life?
>
>We might, if he said he was yearning to try other things. Has Joe mentioned
>that? If not, why assume it?
**********************************
Oh, I think alot people are always yearning to try other things.
My reference was in the context of someone spending 4-6 hours at a gym/rink
training, etc. For the most part, someone spending at least that amount of
time for, say, a paying job, isn't thought of as unusual or excessive. But in
general, IMHO the media emphasizes all the hours a female figure skater has
to put into the rink, etc., and when they're goint to get over it and
retire/turn pro,etc. I think that slant is still "sexist", in general. Maybe
it;'s the "pretty dancer"menality skating still projects to others, who knows?
>
>> Or do people say that Dan Marino or Barry Bonds's cost might be too high for
dedicating so much time and training to their sport, even though neither ever
achieved the pinnacle of a Supberbowl or World Series ring?
>>(with Barry, there's still time).
If Kobe Bryant doesn't win the NBA title
>>most sane people don't start screaming he should retire, or if Martina
>Hingis chokes away the Austrailian Open, most people don't say "why is she
still
>>playing tennis?"
>
>Have any of those sports stars said the same things about wanting to
experience
>other things?
*************************
In general terms,I think many top athletes talk about life "after" sports,
what they want to accomplish, their own "burnout" issue, etc. Chris Evert used
to talk about it when she was in her early twenties and she played well into
her thirties. So Sure. I would say alot of them talk about experiecing other
things. And if they seriously talk about "retirement" , yeah, I could see that
being an issue about them in interviews. But I just think in figureskating it
seems an "automatic" subject for FEMALE skaters that journalists and many fans
stake, even if the skater hasn't said anything in interviews, etc.
>And last time I checked, Hingis is female.
>
In this post , I was careful to mention
"sexist" bias in the perceptions of female figure skaters and their careers.
Not all female athletes. That's why I mentioned Jackie Joyner, Martina
Navratilova, etc. There is now a tradition of long-term careers in female
tennis players. There is no such "tradition" for a myriad of reasons in
eligible skating.
>>It just seems that figure skating is
>>still caught in that perception that a female champ really can't enjoy life
>>until after she "retires".
>
>I think that's a pathetic state of mind, myself.
**************************
I agree, and yet it comes up in the media all the time. Even after Nagano alot
of the attention was whether 17 year-old Kwan would "continue". Yarite.
>>It would be curious to see if there would be a new generation of female
>>skaters who skate through at least their mid-twenties in the eligible ranks.
>
>
>It could still happen.
>
>Peg
******************
Agreed.
Mindy
> I know she will be older and possible so-called over-the-hill,
> but what if does have the drive and motivation to make it and qualify for
> the 2006 games will she be allowed?
>
> Bummed,
>
> Ron
Sure, why not? There is no age limitation. As long as she qualifies,
she can even go to the 2010 games and beyond.
Now, whether she will be able to qualify or not is a whole different
matter. Unless US figure skating program rapidly goes down for some
reason, we will continue to see a lot of talented, hungry newcomers
who are equipped with 3-3 combos or possible 3-axel, even quad. It
will be an uphill battle for Michelle every year.
Fiona McQuarrie
: *************************
: Like I said, my post wasn't directed specifically at all the content of your
: post. But the reference to Michelle wanting to experience life just triggered
: my general musings about the subject, vis-a-vis coments about when female
: skaters are going to retire/turn pro, etc and the the threads here on RSSIF
: regarding Kwan retiring/going forward/ etc.
You have some good points, Theo, but on the other hand Joe Schmoe's
"performance evaluation" after that 8-10 hours of daily work doesn't come
down to six minutes with several million people watching and several
million dollars of future work depending on the outcome.
Fiona
Roaz
>Date: 2/26/2002 8:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20020226112247...@mb-fi.aol.com>
Nit: Her first world title after the 1998 Olys was not won with a clean
program.
>
>
>
>
>
DesertRoaz
Frame of reference is everything.
MsFi
> Isn't more now, that, the skating game really has changed at the elite level?
> I mean, Nancy Kerrigan had the best performance of her life at '94 Lillihammer
> when she was 24. Maria B. "peaked" at 26 with her '99 World triumph. And t.
> Malinina had her best results at 26 or 27. And Kristie Yamaguchi, even as a
> pro, it sure didn't seem to be such a stretch to say she was the *best* female
> skater circa '94-'95, when she was 23 or 24 years old, as in still hitting most
> of her jumps, (granted not in combination)
I think skating has gone the other way (ie, to teens winning) because
of a number of factors.
1. the technical difficulty isn't necessarily all that much more than
say 10 years ago, but those who are at the elite level are practicing
these elements more often, thus putting their bodies through more
strain.
2. not a lot of skaters actually go to school for 6 hours a day any
more. not a lot of skaters spend 2 or 3 hours doing figures any more.
this means that they do a lot more jumping. more strain, etc.
3. is it just me or are skaters as a whole thinner than they used to
be?
4. there are a lot more competitions during the year, thus changing
the entire training pattern and extending the time that skaters need
to be in peak form. i believe that this shortens the time that they
can remain competitive.
i don't think we will see a lot of mid-20s winning again unless all of
these things change. if skaters were in school, had only nationals,
worlds and one or two grand prix events to skate in (no exhibitions
etc), i think they could compete for much longer safely. this doesn't
mean that we'll never have another Maria B, just means that they'll
become rarer!
fiona
Jennifer Lyon
----------
In article <20020226124623...@mb-fz.aol.com>,
tca...@aol.com (TCAXEL) wrote:
> But in general, everybody keeps on saying how the sacrificies are so
> huge,
> staying hours and hours in the rink/gym. Which I have no doubt is
true.
> But
> there seems to be some sort of "sexist" slant in that in figure
skating,
> it is
> perceived as such an overwhelming burden for the female skater to
> continue with
> such an endeavor, indeed make it a "career". She somehow can't live
> life to
> the fullest.
I don't deny that there might be some sexism involved here. But I
think the biggest factor is that many female skaters are still in
their teens when they rise to the top. The last three Olympic
gold medals in ladies figure skating were won by teenage girls--
two Americans and one who moved to the USA shortly after she won
her Olympic gold. Hence, each of these young ladies received (and
continue to receive) a lot of publicity in the mainstream media.
Meanwhile, the top 15 and 16-year-old male skaters are still
competing at the junior level. They may be working as hard and
putting in as many hours as Sarah Hughes, but these young guys
aren't winning the Olympics or even placing high enough at
Nationals to make the Olympic team. Devoted skating fans know who
these young men are and they are aware of how hard they work and
all the sacrifices they are making. But the average Joes and
Janes watching the occasional competition on TV don't see these
guys until they're in their early 20s. And they think the male
skaters are all gay, anyway, so there isn't so much concern about
them missing the prom or whatever.
johns
> And yet if Joe Shmoe works 8 to 10 hours a day at his job, do we say he's
not
> experiencing Life?
No, but *he* says that. The luckiest people in the world are the
ones who can earn a living doing their chosen hobby. The rest of
us fit in where we see opportunity .. in line with our abilities. Ask
me if I would trade places with a world class figure skater making
$5,000,000.00 a year. Don't stand in the way of the door.
johns
johns
judging system. She seems to have her head into her
skating, and if she can figure out how to maximize her
scores under a *fair* system, then I suspect her experience
in competition would give her an edge that she could not
get under an arbitrary system that props her and gives
her no feedback. Under the new ( if fair ) system, she
would immediately drop to 4th .. 5th place finishes
in every thing she entered until she wised up and worked
out her jumping and spinning deficiences, and quit listening
to a lot of half baked advice that borders on mysticism.
At her earning potential, I think she would be a fool not
to make skating her lifes work. It would certainly be an
interesting project to see her turn herself around and
face the reality that her skills were deficient, and that her
scores weren't just bad luck at the Olympics. Instead of
doing exhibitions as a pro, I think she should remain in
competition and see where it goes. I remember a gymnast
who did that. I believe she finally won Gold about the
4th time she was a member of the Olympic team. She
was 28 years old at the time ( if I remember right ).
And, over the years, she had slowly increased her level
of difficulty working with several new coaches until there
was no way the kids could pull up to her level. Besides,
skating is fun.
johns
Rocket Ron
Just so you people know the reason I feel for her is that I watched her grow
up before she started figure skating. She lived across the street from me
and her parents restaurant was just about a 1/2 mile away. Her aunt and
grandmother still live across the street from my mom and they are good
friends. My mom asked me if this was it for MK and I didn't have a good
answer.
I believe in my heart if she decides to try one more time she will have just
as much, if not more, support from the public as she had this time.
God Bless Michelle Kwan and her family and loyal fans.
Ron Daldoss
"Rocket Ron" <rocke...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HbGe8.4906$2v6.5...@news1.west.cox.net...
Robert Storr
Also remember as a general rule girls usualy hit puberty before guys
do. My father for example grew 2 inches when he was 21. I think its
just the way nature works, men mature after women. As far as that
goes I remember reading a somewhere that girls nowadays are enter
puberty at an earlier age then they used to. I'm gonna have to look
around and see where the heck I read that though.
Babygi3870
>as much, if not more, support from the public as she had this time.
I think Michelle can do it, she is a beautiful and talented skater. Everything
she does comes from the heart. Even if she doesn't win, she has already showed
an important lesson for skaters younger than her, and people in general for
that matter, Never give up, if you want something badly keep going for it.
That's the most powerful lesson of all, not gold, even though I would love for
her to win and we all know that fire is in her. I am behind you Michelle!!!!