Swing low, sweet chariot (spoiler)
Massive Gonads
goal 2mins and 25secs into the game. Unfortunately I fell asleep moments
later but I can imagine how the rest of the game played out, the score
divisible by 3. Champagne Rugby!!
England 9
Australia 18
--
$ cat /dev/null > foo.mg
JD
I feel sorry for Wilkinson, being surrounded by those donkeys. A
talent like his deserves better. What the Welsh or Irish would do to
have him in place of the shitful options they have at first five.
Moody had another good game - outplayed Smith by a margin. The rest
merely took up space on the field.
Who is it that keeps mentioning that special school placement Monye?
Useless - not a fullback's arse. Almost as bad as that downy Banahan.
What sort of joke is putting him on the wing? He's not fast, elusive
or particularly skilled.
Klitty
Actually you're not far off.
Frankly I found it a tad embarrassing.
Predictable as hell. The first half with the fans behind piling on the
pressure until the shackle draggers regrouped, got over the jet lag and
outplayed what will be called the England "2nd XV".
--
Rum, Sodomy And The Lash. Join The Royal Navy.
Klitty
> On Nov 8, 5:13 pm, "Massive Gonads" <bhah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just saw the replay of England vs Australia... Jonny landed a sweeeet drop
>> goal 2mins and 25secs into the game. Unfortunately I fell asleep moments
>> later but I can imagine how the rest of the game played out, the score
>> divisible by 3. Champagne Rugby!!
>>
>> England 9
>> Australia 18
>
> I feel sorry for Wilkinson, being surrounded by those donkeys. A
> talent like his deserves better. What the Welsh or Irish would do to
> have him in place of the shitful options they have at first five.
> Moody had another good game - outplayed Smith by a margin. The rest
> merely took up space on the field.
I could google posts up where I, knowing nothing about rugby, lauded
Smith as the best thing that happened the the Aussies pack in years. He
is class.
As far as Wilkinson goes I have had a change of heart. His "class" as a
kicker means they adapt their play to his strengths. He can play make
but he knows, as we all do, its better to tempt the oppo into fouling
and then kicking the points.
Not the way forward.
Monye is crap. In fact the entire back line is crap. I dont know why
that should be. But when the last time I can remember an England center
generating excitement means Will Carling then I know something is wrong
...
(don't mention Guscott please...)
Still. 2 from 2 on the predictions ..
>
> Who is it that keeps mentioning that special school placement Monye?
> Useless - not a fullback's arse. Almost as bad as that downy Banahan.
> What sort of joke is putting him on the wing? He's not fast, elusive
> or particularly skilled.
>
--
Why so serious?
> JD <_antipode...@bigpond.com> writes:
> > On Nov 8, 5:13 pm, "Massive Gonads" <bhah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Just saw the replay of England vs Australia... Jonny landed a sweeeet drop
> >> goal 2mins and 25secs into the game. Unfortunately I fell asleep moments
> >> later but I can imagine how the rest of the game played out, the score
> >> divisible by 3. Champagne Rugby!!
>
> >> England 9
> >> Australia 18
>
> > I feel sorry for Wilkinson, being surrounded by those donkeys. A
> > talent like his deserves better. What the Welsh or Irish would do to
> > have him in place of the shitful options they have at first five.
> > Moody had another good game - outplayed Smith by a margin. The rest
> > merely took up space on the field.
>
> I could google posts up where I, knowing nothing about rugby, lauded
> Smith as the best thing that happened the the Aussies pack in years. He
> is class.
I thought Smith played pretty well. Moody also played well. I guess
the reason he stood out more was that the rest of the English pack
were crap. I actually thought Rocky Elsom had a really good second
half, after a distinctly scratchy first. Except for *that* bombed try,
which was painful to watch.
> As far as Wilkinson goes I have had a change of heart. His "class" as a
> kicker means they adapt their play to his strengths. He can play make
> but he knows, as we all do, its better to tempt the oppo into fouling
> and then kicking the points.
>
> Not the way forward.
I don't think that's entirely fair on Wilkinson, who had a quality
match all-round. He took the ball to the line, distributed well,
tackled well... and obviously kicked well. I think the problem is
pretty much everyone else. In those first 10-15 minutes he did play
the 'traditional' game, but once England's superiority up front waned
a bit, they used him a bit more as a playmaker.
A class act he is, and certainly miles better than anything else going
around in England- or in the 6 Nations more generally.
> Monye is crap. In fact the entire back line is crap. I dont know why
> that should be. But when the last time I can remember an England center
> generating excitement means Will Carling then I know something is wrong
> ...
>
> (don't mention Guscott please...)
True that- is Tait also injured? Would have thought he could inject
something, somewhere. Monye looked like a winger playing at fullback,
while Banahan just looked atrocious all night.
> Still. 2 from 2 on the predictions ..
>
>
>
> > Who is it that keeps mentioning that special school placement Monye?
> > Useless - not a fullback's arse. Almost as bad as that downy Banahan.
> > What sort of joke is putting him on the wing? He's not fast, elusive
> > or particularly skilled.
>
> --
> Rum, Sodomy And The Lash. Join The Royal Navy.
Also- my favourite moment: Benn Robinson's duck-impersonation/25 metre
run.
Uncle Dave
<snip that sucker>
>
> > As far as Wilkinson goes I have had a change of heart. His "class" as a
> > kicker means they adapt their play to his strengths. He can play make
> > but he knows, as we all do, its better to tempt the oppo into fouling
> > and then kicking the points.
>
> > Not the way forward.
>
> I don't think that's entirely fair on Wilkinson, who had a quality
> match all-round. He took the ball to the line, distributed well,
> tackled well...
Wilkinson played with as much of the flair he's been encouraged to
produce at Toulon as he could, certainly played with a lot more
inventiveness than he did in England's heyday. I think he's very good
at adapting to what's needed and what is needed in a patched together
side of hopefuls is somebody to lead and he did that very well. What
was needed when MJ was captain was primarily somebody to shift the
ball on, to defend and to kick, no need for flair and maybe he was too
immature in his game then to provide it anyway. Who knows? One
thing's for sure, England would have ben well and truly stuffed
without him yesterday, some positives but no real improvement.
I was about the only person here to question the wisdom of appointing
Johnson as head honcho and though I said I hoped to be proved wrong,
it seems I am increasingly being proved right. The poor bastard is
out of his depth and it shows. He looks increasingly like Nikolay
Valuev, plodding around hoping that the same old atrategy will win
through in the end. It won't.
UD
Paul
c52bc9...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, _antip...@bigpond.com
says...
...
> I feel sorry for Wilkinson, being surrounded by those donkeys. A
> talent like his deserves better.
That's why he went to France to play for Toulon.
Paul
johnmhill
The problem is not Johnson except in that he is innately conservative.
And, he has surrounded himself with clones in his coaching team.
Instead of Wells, Rowntree, Ford and Callard he needs to look for
coaches that will assist him develop a side that players 2009 rugby
and who move the players forward and not backwards.
If All the players look crap and counter to form the problem is with
the the coaches - As I have been pointing out since before MJ took
over. They might be his mates, but that is why they need to go; and if
not before next Saturday then before the 6N
JH
Uncle Dave
Well, I disagree inasmuchas Wells, Ford and Callard at least have some
coaching experience and were not entirely unsuccessful. Sack them and
you're still left with somebody who really should be doing something
to try and turn games around which he simply doesn't do - he seems to
sit and wait till he's forced to make a change rather than being
proactive. I have no confidence in his ability as a coach. As a
player and captain, yes, but how many great players make great
coaches? Not many because the two require quite different
approaches. Difficult to explain but if you saw last night's fight
you'll know what I mean - Adam Booth, calm, confident, explaining
what's needed, listening whereas Valuev's guy was just teling him to
get in and knock his man out. You need a coach who can inspire
confidence because of what he helps you to achieve, not what he used
to achieve himself.
UD
Two Dogs
Of course you won't consider that perhaps they are just crap ?
Two Dogs
johnmhill
I've discarded that as irrational, as well as untrue. Some of the
selections beggar belief, some of the players are crapper at this
level than they ought to be, but not all.
Foden should have been selected over Monye
Banahan needs some time to develop
Geraghty was weak at this level. There are lots of options.
Crane was poor. Haskell should start at 8
Who was partnering the weak Borthwick ?
Apart from a few good lineout takes what did Borthwick do?
My team for next week then
Foden
Banahan
Hipkiss
Cipriani (but it won't happen)
Cueto
Wilkinson
Hodgson
Payne
Hartley
Wilson
Kennedy
Shaw
Croft
Moody
Haskell
At the moment there is an imbalance that reflects how the GP teams
stood, but is not any reflection of the current status
League Team Players
Position
1 Saracens 1
2 London Irish 0
3 London Wasps 1
4 Leicester Tigers 5 + 3 coaches
5 Northampton 0
6 Newcastle Falcons 0
7 Harlequins 2
8 Sale Sharks 1
9 Worcester 0
10 Gloucester 0
11 Bath 2
12 Leeds 0
JH
johnmhill
What utter rubbish UD. The experience this coaching team have is of
losing under 3 managers. England have an inadequate defensive
structure, mediocre kicking strategy and the backs cannot operate
because the only consistency in the forwards is their failure to
deliver quick ball. Perhaps part of this is the source of the team and
the way this fails to reflect GP performance.
Mike Thompson
> On Nov 8, 3:26 pm, Klitty <mitti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't think that's entirely fair on Wilkinson, who had a quality
> match all-round. He took the ball to the line, distributed well,
> tackled well... and obviously kicked well. I think the problem is
> pretty much everyone else. In those first 10-15 minutes he did play
> the 'traditional' game, but once England's superiority up front waned
> a bit, they used him a bit more as a playmaker.
The English "superiority" in the first 25 mins was off the back of a
6-0 penalty count which was about the Wallabies being stupid, and two
line-out steals, likewise.
I didn't really see much from England in that time. They were handed a
huge opportunity by the Wallabies and managed to kick a couple of 3
pointers. The moment the Wallabies topped shooting themselves in the
foot they scored a try.
England tried hard, but they were mostly rubbish.
--
Mike
Two Dogs
Of course you have. It would be too horrible for you to consider that
perhaps players you rate are actually crap. Or that good Premiership
players make good International players.
Some of the
> selections beggar belief, some of the players are crapper at this
> level than they ought to be, but not all.
>
> Foden should have been selected over Monye
> Banahan needs some time to develop
> Geraghty was weak at this level. There are lots of options.
> Crane was poor. Haskell should start at 8
> Who was partnering the weak Borthwick ?
> Apart from a few good lineout takes what did Borthwick do?
>
> My team for next week then
>
> Foden
> Banahan
How can you keep banging on about Banahan, that would be possibly
the worst performance by an international winger I've seen in quite
some time. Ran at the line a number of times with a decent run up, the
crowd raising the nosie level in anticipation, only to be hit in the
chest by an Aussie tackler, stop dead in his tracks on first contact,
and topple over backwards for zero gain. He couldn't make a yard. He
couldn't even fall forward. And every time the ball moved through
hands to his wing he was a half step too far upfield and out of
position. The center had to keep the ball EVERY TIME.
He looked like a forward playing on the wing, which he is.
If this is someone you rate, then critcism of your ability to rate
is warranted.
Two Dogs
didgerman
He was shocking compared to his usual self. But if he needs time to
develop, he's not going to get it at Twickers during an international.
Get on the phone to Sackey or Sinbad. Strettle is back as well iirc......
Uncle Dave
<snip>
>
> > UD
>
> What utter rubbish UD.
I note you don't actually produce anything to support your statement
"The problem is not Johnson"...
UD
johnmhill
Can I recommend you read the 3 posts on the subject. I will summarise
so that you don't have to tax yourself too much.
Johnson has inherited the wrong coaches.
They may have experience,but, it is of losing
There is to strong a Leicester influence. It shows in the selections.
Where MJ has failed is in being too loyal to his mates and old club
If not MJ, then who ?
JH
Uncle Dave
I still think you're wrong. I see nothing in his selection policy
thus far or his torpor during games to make me think getting rid of
anyone other than him would change anything. He did a great job for
England as a player and yours (and most of England rugby it would
appear) idea that this is somehow going to transform him into a great
manager is quite simply, well, utter rubbish :-)
He will eventually get the sack. We will all be sad. England will
still be shite. How many false starts must we have before this
uniquely English notion that only former interntational players can be
successful international coaches (which is also utter rubbish) will be
kicked into touch. I can't be bothered to look up 1995 (which hardly
counts as pro anyway) but the most successful (i.e. RWC winning)
coaches in the pro era have either not played at international level
or had success in business. Rod MacQueen. Clive Woodward. Jake
White. See where this is going? Correct. Graham Henry, and most
definitely NOT Martin Johnson.
UD
johnmhill
First, it is not a uniquely English idea that only former
international players can be succesful international players.I know at
least 2 welsh coaches who should have been coaching at that level,
John Vaughan and Lynn Evans.
Clive Woodward played for England and was a successful business man.I
don't know about MacQueen or Jake White.
But after a pair of England coaches who have utterly failed it is a
nonsenese for MJ to go forward with their assistants who wee part of
the failure. Lose Wells, Rowntree and Ford and replace them with some
creative coaches and England may go forward.
I believe that MJ was the wrong former Leicester player for the job,
Dean Richards would have been my candidate because he had proven
success as a coach.But MJ is not the problem except that he is too
loyal.
JH
Mike Thompson
McQueen was a club level performer in his playing days. He tried
moving from Warringah (hopless at the time) to Gordon (better) in an
attempt to make the NSW side, but he never made it. Went back to
Warringah.
But he was quite a successful Businessman, and he captained NSW in
life saving as a very successful boat skip, etc.
Critically, though he had fantastic coaching credentials. He'd taken
Warringah which was a nothing club in Sydney and made them club
champions within two years. They beat the emensely powerful Randwick
to that honour which ... we'll it was a stagering achievement. I just
can't tell you how astounding that was.
And then McQueen coached NSW at the time of the Wallabies '91 World
Cup win. NSW contributed something like 11 players to the RWC winning
Wallabies side. Dwyer might have been the coaching face of the '91
Wallabies, but it could be argued that McQueen was the engine who laid
the foundation with the NSW side (who, for example, beat the full
strength, grand slam winning English side which toured that year).
Then McQueen moved on to the Brumbies and we all know what happened
there. He was given only misfits and left overs and turned them into
the best performing Australian side leaving the rest for dust.
By the time McQueen became Wallabies coach, he'd already pulled off
any number of significant coaching coups. But he was never anything
like an international class player.
--
Mike
Uncle Dave
wrote:
>
> By the time McQueen became Wallabies coach, he'd already pulled off
> any number of significant coaching coups. But he was never anything
> like an international class player.
It's my belief, and indeed my experience, that the best managers
aren't those who are particularly good at the tasks they oversee but
understand what needs to be done in order to succeed. It's something
of a cliche, but nonetheless true, that great salesmen don't
necessarily make great sales managers and I can vouch for the fact
that technically gifted people - engineers, programmers, techie gurus
etc. - rarely make good managers of technical areas. (Mind you, a lot
of non-technical managers can't do it either.) This is because people
who are gifted, if you ask them, often cannot explain why they are so
good at what they do they just *are*. Indeed, they often find the
whole business of analysing what they do tedious and pointless, and as
managers will often revert to doing it themselves when faced with
problems in the workplace which helps nobody. Johnno obviously can't
do that as he's retired as a player, but I get the impression of a man
who is ill at ease with the job and is only doing it because his
country called. It's not his fault that they really should have
called someone else. The key to successful management in most jobs is
enabling your people to do their jobs, which means being hands-off,
mentoring and concentrating on smoothing the path rather than worrying
all the time about where it's leading. Trust. You need to point
people in the right direction and help them along the way, not whip
them into action. I don't think that comes naturally to a great on-
field leader like Johnson.
UD
didgerman
And the Lions.