UK - Granta vs Nepthys
Alistair Potts
for about five years, I think.
It was hinted in the Boat Race newsletter that Cambridge aren't going to
bother with a 2nd crew any more. Does anyone know?
A
Jeremy Fagan
2000 was the first race, but Nephthys have been around for a lot longer
- I rowed with them in 97 & 98 in the 8s head, and there had been a
Nephthys for a few years before that. We always struggled to persuade
CULRC that running a second eight was worth the bother. It would be sad
for them to pull out again.
Jeremy
Jonathan Anderson
> 2000 was the first race, but Nephthys have been around for a lot longer
> - I rowed with them in 97 & 98 in the 8s head, and there had been a
> Nephthys for a few years before that. We always struggled to persuade
> CULRC that running a second eight was worth the bother. It would be sad
> for them to pull out again.
Lack of money has meant they aren't running with one this year.
Jon
Anne Rogers
I don't know about this year, but it's certainly been the case a couple of
years that only around 20 guys have even trialled, basically if you trialled
you were in a crew, unless you got injured, to the extent that some years,
on race day, had an injury occured, there would have been a problem. It's a
shame, because I think the number of guys of the relevant size in Cambridge
would mean there should be a big enough pool to draw from, but for whatever
reason, they are not showing up to trial.
On the other hand, I understand that boatrace wise, Cambridge has wanted to
replace the spare pairs race with a spare coxed 4, but that hasn't happened.
Cheers
Anne
Chris Kerr
at the beginning of term, before we even knew for sure who was going to
show up to trial, and we decided that considering the fact that we don't
have a full-time coach and therefore rely on volunteers (and it is of
course much harder to find two good volunteer coaches than one), we should
concentrate our efforts on producing the fastest first boat possible on
April 1st. This is likely to be the case for the next few years, but we do
want to bring back the Granta-Nephthys race in the medium-term future.
Rule 7 of our constitution specifically states that the Granta crew should
only be raced if we have sufficient resources.
http://www.culrc.org/Documentation/Club/constitution.pdf
7. That the President’s principal task be to produce a University crew
to beat Oxford University in a race to be rowed in eight-oared boats over
the 2,000 metre course at Henley-on-Thames in the Easter Vacation as
arranged by the Organising Committee. A secondary task, where resources
permit, be to boat a reserves crew, known as Granta, to race a comparable
crew from Oxford, known heretofore as Nephthys.
---
Christopher Kerr
Vice-President, Cambridge University Lightweight Rowing Club
Sarah F
> 7. That the President's principal task be to produce a University crew
> to beat Oxford University in a race to be rowed in eight-oared boats over
> the 2,000 metre course at Henley-on-Thames in the Easter Vacation as
> arranged by the Organising Committee. A secondary task, where resources
> permit, be to boat a reserves crew, known as Granta, to race a comparable
> crew from Oxford, known heretofore as Nephthys.
Just noticed that your constitution is wrong! The Henley Boat Races
Course is only 1970m long! Hee hee! ;)
Sarah
Jeremy Fagan
always easy, there were usually a few old blues around to help out.
Since the squad was that size until after Christmas anyway, it was only
another 8 weeks to keep a crew going, providing spare rowers for the
blue boat who were fully fit and in training in case of injury, not only
for the race but also for the weeks leading up to it. We were also
cannon fodder for the blue boat to train alongside, and it was always
great fun when we could pull off some form of a win - usually by using
some slightly sneaky tactics..
It was never felt in Oxford that having a second eight in any way
hindered the development of the 'fastest first boat possible', and in
many ways made it easier.
A pity.
Jeremy
Anne Rogers
> always easy, there were usually a few old blues around to help out. Since
> the squad was that size until after Christmas anyway, it was only another
> 8 weeks to keep a crew going, providing spare rowers for the blue boat who
> were fully fit and in training in case of injury, not only for the race
> but also for the weeks leading up to it. We were also cannon fodder for
> the blue boat to train alongside, and it was always great fun when we
> could pull off some form of a win - usually by using some slightly sneaky
> tactics..
>
> It was never felt in Oxford that having a second eight in any way hindered
> the development of the 'fastest first boat possible', and in many ways
> made it easier.
I don't know how costs compare and time to get to and from training
compared, I get the impression that in Oxford, with the Isis having less
capacity, that most colleges train away and do so regularly, so the rowers
are used to getting to wherever, training and getting back. In Cambridge,
the cam being just about able to cope with training means that college crews
rarely go off cam to train, so the jump to trialling and training at Ely is
quite a huge one. I don't know how the travel times compare, but even if you
get a direct ride in a car or minibus, it's 45mins best case scenario and I
know at times some people had to get the train. It's difficult to be in
posession of a car as a student in Cambridge, I don't know if the same rules
apply in Oxford. Again, I don't know how things work out differently
academically, but I think there may be differences, as I understand it, in
Oxford, many students have no exams in 2nd year? whereas in Cambridge, it's
rare for anyone not to have exams. I think there are probably more
differences between the two universities than at first glance it might seem
and maybe just at the momemt, it adds up with things being tricky for
lightweights at Cambridge.
It's no defense, but maybe food for thought.
Cheers
Anne
JY
The general standard of college crews especially in Lents/Torpids is
lamentable and the benefit of 8 or so lightweight oarsmen returning to
row for their colleges in time for these events is likely to raise the
standard a little, possibly helping the college oarsmen they row with
to improve. This increased university/college crossover may help to
improve the standard and quantity of triallists in subsequent years.
The same should apply to heavyweights with any outside the final 16,
being encouraged to return to row for their colleges rather than train
in a reserve 4 or 8. The reserve crew can always be kept ticking over
and be reformed full time after the bumps are over.
BTW IIRC when the lightweight boatrace was first started, all the crew
members were required to row for their college crews as well with the
crews being formed full time only after bumps. I'm not sure when that
particular rule was dropped.
Edd
> Again, I don't know how things work out differently
> academically, but I think there may be differences, as I understand it, in
> Oxford, many students have no exams in 2nd year?
Increasingly less common I think. Plus I've known people do it with
exams in that year*, and a fair number of grad students without exams
do it, so I'm not sure that's a major factor. (ex-OULRC people will
obviously have more idea about this than me though)
--
Edd
*although the exams would usually be in the term after the race rather
than the same term!
Pete
IMO the issue recently hasn't been the distance (it's less than a lot
of student commutes), it's that there was a serious lack of funds due
to a boat ordering problem (whose fault this actually was I don't know,
but essentially the result was money for a new racing eight was spent
and no race quality boat was received), which didn't go well with a
club running right on the edge financially already, that there was a
coaching issue (not really anyone's fault, good intentions not working
out), and that there is no such thing as a CULRC boathouse, or even
covered area. Ely gets cold in winter, and it's pretty unpleasant when
you have to change in the open in all weather, and the nearest place to
get warm if you get soaked on the water is the supermarket.
CULRC seems to be rather stuck with an undeserved reputation for going
on the lash, a recent record of being outclassed by their opposition
(either OULRC boat would probably have beaten CULRC last year) and
competition for people between CUBC (who are happy to have any really
good lightweights, but unlike OUBC with their women and lwts are very
clear that they will not help CULRC or CUWBC in any way) and the
college clubs, who aren't really all that interested in losing people
to trialling and which have the large advantages of better equipment,
proper boathouses and more social life.
Sarah F
Pete wrote:
>
> IMO the issue recently hasn't been the distance (it's less than a lot
> of student commutes), it's that there was a serious lack of funds due
Oh come of it. Training in Ely takes up a LOT of excess time. Three
early outings mid week that take over 3 hours from door to door, with
only 60-80 minutes of actual water time spent. Thats 9 hours+ for a
measly 4 hours max water time?!
> to a boat ordering problem (whose fault this actually was I don't know,
> but essentially the result was money for a new racing eight was spent
> and no race quality boat was received), which didn't go well with a
> club running right on the edge financially already, that there was a
> coaching issue (not really anyone's fault, good intentions not working
> out), and that there is no such thing as a CULRC boathouse, or even
> covered area. Ely gets cold in winter, and it's pretty unpleasant when
> you have to change in the open in all weather, and the nearest place to
> get warm if you get soaked on the water is the supermarket.
Yes it is true about the boathouse issue... It wasn't so bad when they
had the old CUBC minibus to get changed in.
>
> CULRC seems to be rather stuck with an undeserved reputation for going
> on the lash, a recent record of being outclassed by their opposition
Hmm not sure about that one. I don't think it is a reputation I've
heard of certainly in the last few years. I know their Head Coach had a
go at clamping down on this a few years back - using the supposed
antics of Granta 2003 as an example... rather missing the point that
not only were they the only crew to win since 2001 but most of the
rumours were a significant distortion of the truth anyway.
> (either OULRC boat would probably have beaten CULRC last year) and
The results on the HBR website suggest that a CULRC/Nephthys race this
year would have been close, not necessarily a win for Nephthys:
http://www.henleyboatraces.com/results.asp
> competition for people between CUBC (who are happy to have any really
> good lightweights, but unlike OUBC with their women and lwts are very
There aren't really many lightweight rowers who could trial CUBC and
make it. Doug Perrin is in the squad this year, but in fairness he has
represented GB at U23 level, so you can't really say that his standard
is representative of the majority of CULRC.
> clear that they will not help CULRC or CUWBC in any way) and the
That comment isn't based on fact. CUBC have definitely helped CUW and
CULRC for the past 2 years with more access to Goldie Boathouse (3 erg
sessions per week for each club) and access to the rowing tank.
> college clubs, who aren't really all that interested in losing people
> to trialling and which have the large advantages of better equipment,
> proper boathouses and more social life.
I don't think the colleges try to stop people from trialling for
anyone. Certainly for the bigger rowing colleges, then the advantages
of equipment and facilities are definitely there, but I think its the
individuals that decide whether or not they should trial - its a
feedback system. If the University clubs do well, and row to a high
standard then people will trial for their crews. I'm just not convinced
that blaming the CUBC or the college clubs is going to change the
situation, but it may well get the backs up of people who could be of
help.
Anyway, just my two cents worth.
Sarah
Chris Kerr
This is true - CUBC have been very helpful in the past two years. However,
from what I have heard (please correct me if I am wrong) this has only been
the case since Duncan Holland started as Head Coach.
>
>> college clubs, who aren't really all that interested in losing people
>> to trialling and which have the large advantages of better equipment,
>> proper boathouses and more social life.
>
> I don't think the colleges try to stop people from trialling for
> anyone. Certainly for the bigger rowing colleges, then the advantages
> of equipment and facilities are definitely there, but I think its the
> individuals that decide whether or not they should trial - its a
> feedback system. If the University clubs do well, and row to a high
> standard then people will trial for their crews. I'm just not convinced
> that blaming the CUBC or the college clubs is going to change the
> situation, but it may well get the backs up of people who could be of
> help.
I agree that college clubs are unlikely to tell rowers not to trial, but I
am sure that some are, shall we say, not as efficient at passing on
information about trialling as they could be. Also, (although this is not a
problem for me, as my DoS is a keen rower and a previous Senior Treasurer
of CULRC) some supervisors are strongly opposed to people trialling
(despite the fact that many triallists actually do better in their exams
than they did in previous years).
boatie
> CULRC seems to be rather stuck with an undeserved reputation for going
> on the lash, a recent record of being outclassed by their opposition
> (either OULRC boat would probably have beaten CULRC last year) and
> competition for people between CUBC (who are happy to have any really
> good lightweights, but unlike OUBC with their women and lwts are very
> clear that they will not help CULRC or CUWBC in any way) and the
> college clubs, who aren't really all that interested in losing people
> to trialling and which have the large advantages of better equipment,
> proper boathouses and more social life.
This sounds like 'poor me' syndrome. And presumably the fact that CUBC
allows all the other Cambridge university rowing crews to use their
Goldie boathouse indoor rowing tank, ergos and weights means that they
"will not help in any way". Strange way to show gratitude. If I
remember rightly, Robin Williams wouldn't even allow you guys in the
building and now that Duncan Holland is head coach you train there
twice a week plus you are now allowed to go out at Ely in the same
direction as CUBC as long as outing times don't clash.
This pathetic poor me attitude is why you guys don't have any money.
You're all sitting around waiting for someone to write you a big chunky
cheque. Get wise, it ain't gonna happen.
By contrast OULRC got a seinor committee going 10 years ago (or more)
and have been collecting a small amount of money EVERY YEAR from all
old boys so that they now can afford a fully funded coach plus being
able to afford to pay for support services.
You had the same chance and people like Rod Chisholm tried very hard to
help out but it didn't work because of the underlying attitude of the
club and it's old members.
QED.
Sarah F
> This sounds like 'poor me' syndrome. And presumably the fact that CUBC
> allows all the other Cambridge university rowing crews to use their
> Goldie boathouse indoor rowing tank, ergos and weights means that they
> "will not help in any way". Strange way to show gratitude. If I
> remember rightly, Robin Williams wouldn't even allow you guys in the
> building and now that Duncan Holland is head coach you train there
> twice a week plus you are now allowed to go out at Ely in the same
> direction as CUBC as long as outing times don't clash.
Rebecca, you write as though this Pete guy represents the views of both
CULRC as a club and its current athletes. I don't know who 'Pete' is,
but given his comments have already been pointed out to be rather out
of date, I find it a bit on the harsh side to make such a sweeping
assumption.
Robin Williams DID used to let CULRC train at Goldie, albeit not for as
many sessions that they use now.
And wrt using the 'big boys' way out of Ely, there's not actually any
requirement for CUBC to 'sanction' either CULRC or CUWBC - the river
doesn't actually belong to CUBC. The girls and skinny boys train
midweek at totally different times of day to the big boys (who only go
out there in the afternoons) so they wouldn't even know that they were
using the Adelaide straight, even if they hadn't 'approved' of it.
Yes, its true they need to sort something out. I just don't see the
point of saying anything here that's not constructive.
Sarah
Pete
> Pete wrote:
> > IMO the issue recently hasn't been the distance (it's less than a lot
> > of student commutes), it's that there was a serious lack of funds due
>
> Oh come of it. Training in Ely takes up a LOT of excess time. Three
> early outings mid week that take over 3 hours
Not unless you are faffing. Leave at 6:15, in a lecture at 9 is
possible.
> from door to door, with
> only 60-80 minutes of actual water time spent. Thats 9 hours+ for a
> measly 4 hours max water time?!
Yes, so that is pretty similar to going across London to row on the
Thames like UL and IC do. Most students have that sort of commute,
Cambridge colleges are very lucky that their boathouses are so close to
home.
> > (either OULRC boat would probably have beaten CULRC last year) and
>
> The results on the HBR website suggest that a CULRC/Nephthys race this
> year would have been close, not necessarily a win for Nephthys:
> http://www.henleyboatraces.com/results.asp
The fact that we're even arguing about whether a second boat might beat
a first boat is enough, really. There has been a big gap, much as I
don't like it it's a fact.
> > competition for people between CUBC (who are happy to have any really
> > good lightweights, but unlike OUBC with their women and lwts are very
>
> There aren't really many lightweight rowers who could trial CUBC and
> make it. Doug Perrin is in the squad this year, but in fairness he has
> represented GB at U23 level, so you can't really say that his standard
> is representative of the majority of CULRC.
No - but that sort of guy attracts other good rowers to the club. IIRC,
Marco Espin's been lightweight too.
> > clear that they will not help CULRC or CUWBC in any way) and the
>
> That comment isn't based on fact. CUBC have definitely helped CUW and
> CULRC for the past 2 years with more access to Goldie Boathouse (3 erg
> sessions per week for each club) and access to the rowing tank.
In that case, I apologise for being outdated - wasn't the case when I
was around.
> > college clubs, who aren't really all that interested in losing people
> > to trialling and which have the large advantages of better equipment,
> > proper boathouses and more social life.
>
> I don't think the colleges try to stop people from trialling for
> anyone. Certainly for the bigger rowing colleges, then the advantages
> of equipment and facilities are definitely there, but I think its the
> individuals that decide whether or not they should trial - its a
> feedback system. If the University clubs do well, and row to a high
> standard then people will trial for their crews. I'm just not convinced
> that blaming the CUBC or the college clubs is going to change the
> situation, but it may well get the backs up of people who could be of
> help.
I don't think either are 'to blame', I think it's simply a difficult
position that CULRC are in.
Pete
Chris Kerr
I would like to repeat what Sarah said about 'Pete' not representing the
views of CULRC in this matter. If he is who I think he is, then he has had
a lot of involvement in CULRC earlier on this decade, but not so much in
the past two years, when these complaints have not been so valid. However,
we are still suffering the knock-on effects in some respects - it isn't
just in the field of safety practice that the popular opinion among rowers
is infuriatingly unwilling to change in the face of the facts.
As for the accusations of "just sitting around waiting for a cheque", that
is simply unfair. The very existence of this thread shows that the club and
its executive committee are willing to take drastic action to get ourselves
out of our current predicament, and while for obvious reasons I can't go
giving out exact details I can assure you that it is not the only action we
are taking.
Pete
> This pathetic poor me attitude is why you guys don't have any money.
> You're all sitting around waiting for someone to write you a big chunky
> cheque. Get wise, it ain't gonna happen.
>
> By contrast OULRC got a seinor committee going 10 years ago (or more)
> and have been collecting a small amount of money EVERY YEAR from all
> old boys so that they now can afford a fully funded coach plus being
> able to afford to pay for support services.
>
> You had the same chance and people like Rod Chisholm tried very hard to
> help out but it didn't work because of the underlying attitude of the
> club and it's old members.
I'm not current, I thought that was obvious, but maybe not. As regards
old members - well, the more recent old members have a standing order
set up, similar to OULRC (even if you hadn't heard about it), and most
of us are now busy in some other part of the country and can do very
little beyond that.
Alistair Potts
Chris Kerr wrote:
> The very existence of this thread shows that the club and
> its executive committee are willing to take drastic action
Cool. I'm being manipulated by thought control! I always thought
lightweights looked mildly alien.
Make me dance! Now!
Sarah F
Pete wrote:
> Sarah F wrote:
> > Pete wrote:
> > > IMO the issue recently hasn't been the distance (it's less than a lot
> > > of student commutes), it's that there was a serious lack of funds due
> >
> > Oh come of it. Training in Ely takes up a LOT of excess time. Three
> > early outings mid week that take over 3 hours
>
> Not unless you are faffing. Leave at 6:15, in a lecture at 9 is
> possible.
You're picking spots. I was including time taken from waking up - to
catch an 05:59 train, you wouldn't want to be getting up later than
05.30. The train timetable dictates when you can and can't get to Ely.
Driving isn't an option midweek given the congestion back into
Cambridge - you'd never make 9am lectures.
Also you can't really compare to London given that all London academic
clubs are a fair distance away from accomodation - yes Cambridge may be
lucky with 5mins door to door for outings on the Cam, but that is what
we're comparing training in Ely to - its the OTHER option for these
guys, staying with their colleges. And this isn't just true for CULRC,
it equally applies to the girls.
> > There aren't really many lightweight rowers who could trial CUBC and
> > make it. Doug Perrin is in the squad this year, but in fairness he has
> > represented GB at U23 level, so you can't really say that his standard
> > is representative of the majority of CULRC.
>
> No - but that sort of guy attracts other good rowers to the club. IIRC,
> Marco Espin's been lightweight too.
Thats correct. And Doug has already earned himself 2 half blues from
rowing for CULRC. But if these two are capable of making the CUBC
crews, then who can blame them - afterall a Full Blue is a lot more
prestigous than a Half Blue (and Goldie think that Goldie Colours are
too - isn't that the reason why they're not Half Blue status?). The
same argument applies in the womens squads too... if a lightweight is
*good enough* to make the heavyweight Blue Boat, then they're going to
be put in it, (or rather want to get in it) aren't they? I don't see
that there's really a logical answer to that problem.
>
> I don't think either are 'to blame', I think it's simply a difficult
> position that CULRC are in.
Agreed.
Sarah
>
Pete
> Pete wrote:
>
> > Sarah F wrote:
> > > Pete wrote:
> > > > IMO the issue recently hasn't been the distance (it's less than a lot
> > > > of student commutes), it's that there was a serious lack of funds due
> > >
> > > Oh come of it. Training in Ely takes up a LOT of excess time. Three
> > > early outings mid week that take over 3 hours
> >
> > Not unless you are faffing. Leave at 6:15, in a lecture at 9 is
> > possible.
>
> You're picking spots.
Not really, since this is what I did when I was there.
> Also you can't really compare to London given that all London academic
> clubs are a fair distance away from accomodation - yes Cambridge may be
> lucky with 5mins door to door for outings on the Cam, but that is what
> we're comparing training in Ely to - its the OTHER option for these
> guys, staying with their colleges. And this isn't just true for CULRC,
> it equally applies to the girls.
Yes, I know - CUBC as well, which rather supports my argument that
travel time isn't the problem. Even if you are rowing for a college
club, you still don't usually get off the water, run home and get
straight to work, you're tired after outings and the only difference is
you can rest at home instead of on the train, big deal.
Sarah F
> Not really, since this is what I did when I was there.
>
> travel time isn't the problem. Even if you are rowing for a college
CUBC is a totally different kettle of fish. Their athletes get a lot
more support, in terms of monetary funding and academic support - as
far as I am aware, the club pays for extra supervisions to make sure
that the students don't fall behind through missing lectures etc, so on
terms of the training eating into their working day, they're far more
able to cope with it.
I don't know who you are, and I don't know when you were around here,
but there's something called tuition fees now, which the government has
introduced, which means that a lot of the students now have to pay
£3k+ per year to be here. The result is a much lower uptake in
extra-curricular activities - whether thats due to pressure from
themselves or from home. And this is noticible at all levels, not just
University sports.
> club, you still don't usually get off the water, run home and get
> straight to work, you're tired after outings and the only difference is
> you can rest at home instead of on the train, big deal.
Yeah, that may be the case, I don't know, I can't speak for everyone.
Training in Cambridge does mean that you can get up later though... you
can't really sleep on the train on the way to Ely, or if you do, I
don't think you could really call it decent quality sleep. I don't
think that travel time is the sole reason for problems that they're
having. I do however, think that it might not be contributing to
helping them get out of the situation now they're in it. I can't speak
for the men, but I have heard of good school girl rowers with monster
ergs who won't trial for CUWBC because of the amount of wasted time
going to Ely entails.
Sarah
Rob Collings
> Even if you are rowing for a college
> club, you still don't usually get off the water, run home and get
> straight to work, you're tired after outings and the only difference is
> you can rest at home instead of on the train, big deal.
Different uni, but when I was an undergrad I'd normally be off the
water, out of my lycra and straight up the hill into lectures. Probably
no more than 20 minutes from putting the boat on the rack to sitting
down in the lecture theatre. That was pretty much the norm.
On the rare occasion that I didn't have a 9am start, there wasn't much
rest between second breakfast, a shower and getting down to work
because it's the only way to fit it in. Although maybe that's because I
did a real degree rather than the artsy-farsty stuff that is getting
more popular. ;-)
Rob.
Christopher Anton
news:1163764274....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Robin Williams wouldn't even allow you guys in the
> building and now that Duncan Holland is head coach you train there
> twice a week plus you are now allowed to go out at Ely in the same
> direction as CUBC as long as outing times don't clash.
>
excuse me I wasn't aware that CUBC owned the Ouse at Ely and had the say so
over who could boat as the same time as them or in which direction they
travel. It must be costing them a fortune.
demesto...@yahoo.co.uk
Christopher Anton wrote:
> excuse me I wasn't aware that CUBC owned the Ouse at Ely and had the say so
> over who could boat as the same time as them or in which direction they
> travel. It must be costing them a fortune.
Why buy when you can regulate? See
http://www.cucbc.org/downloads/handbook.pdf - section J on Ely.
On someone's argument that keeping College rowers in a squad would
raise the standard in the Lents - I think CULRC and/or Granta lost to
Colleges (at Kingston and/or Bedford?). So at the moment staying in the
Colleges is better for the overall standard, although hopefully this
won't always be the case.
Christopher Anton
<demesto...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1163804544....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Why buy when you can regulate? See
> http://www.cucbc.org/downloads/handbook.pdf - section J on Ely.
>
I notice that only applies to College crews though. I'm amazed that such a
clause will stand up in law. AFAIK the Ouse at Ely is a navigbale river and
hence comes under the Enviroment Agency and if you have the right licence
then the CUBC can huff and puff as much as it likes but you have a pefect
right to take your boat on the water whenever you like.
demesto...@yahoo.co.uk
Christopher Anton wrote:
> I notice that only applies to College crews though. I'm amazed that such a
> clause will stand up in law. AFAIK the Ouse at Ely is a navigbale river and
> hence comes under the Enviroment Agency and if you have the right licence
> then the CUBC can huff and puff as much as it likes but you have a pefect
> right to take your boat on the water whenever you like.
Yes, you do, and you're right that CUBC won't be able to stop you in
advance of you doing it. I assume the rule is only designed to stop
College crews, where the stick CUBC (and CUWBC, hence the two rules)
has is the ability to prevent a bumps entry - which is the ultimate
deterrent for most College captains.
I suspect more subtle methods can be used against CUWBC and CULRC -
like the withdrawal of what cooperation there is already over access to
Goldie.
Anne Rogers
> Different uni, but when I was an undergrad I'd normally be off the
> water, out of my lycra and straight up the hill into lectures. Probably
> no more than 20 minutes from putting the boat on the rack to sitting
> down in the lecture theatre. That was pretty much the norm.
that long? I think my record was 9mins, or maybe 11, but getting off the
water at 8.50 was not unusual, and would rarely result in me being late to a
9am (which in Cambridge is generally at 9.05!).
Cheers
Anne
Anne Rogers
>but there's something called tuition fees now, which the government has
>introduced, which means that a lot of the students now have to pay
>£3k+ per year to be here. The result is a much lower uptake in
>extra-curricular activities - whether thats due to pressure from
>themselves or from home. And this is noticible at all levels, not just
>University sports.
Presumably this will also apply to Oxford, though dependent on which year
triallest are in, may not have an effect this year.
I wonder, has anyone ever done a comparision of which years triallists are
in and how many years individual rowers trial, my impression is that in both
CULRC and CUWBC the vast majority only trial once and that the average first
boat will have roughly one previous first boat rower and one previous
reserve crew rower. I haven't looked in detail at an Oxford crew list for a
while, but it does seem they have bigger numbers of returners.
It seems to me that the cam is a very empty place on an afternoon and makes
me wonder about the potential for CUWBC and CULRC to switch training to
afternoons and use the cam during the week, CUW definitely did this in the
relatively recent past, possibly last year being 2000 boat race, but maybe
earlier than that. At one time they trained on the cam regularly in the am
and were still winning more often than not. I'd hope that this has been
investigated!
Cheers
Anne
Jonathan Anderson
> If he is who I think he is, then he has had
> a lot of involvement in CULRC earlier on this decade, but not so much in
> the past two years, when these complaints have not been so valid.
If you're thinking Pete Taylor I think you're well wide of the mark.
Jon
--
Durge: j...@durge.org http://users.durge.org/~jon/
OnStream: acco...@rowing.org.uk http://www.rowing.org.uk/
[ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]
Jonathan Anderson
> By contrast OULRC got a seinor committee going 10 years ago (or more)
> and have been collecting a small amount of money EVERY YEAR from all
> old boys so that they now can afford a fully funded coach plus being
> able to afford to pay for support services.
Didn't OURLC lose Andy Nelder early on this season to OUBC or something?
Who has taken his place?
Rob Collings
Anne Rogers wrote:
> > Different uni, but when I was an undergrad I'd normally be off the
> > water, out of my lycra and straight up the hill into lectures. Probably
> > no more than 20 minutes from putting the boat on the rack to sitting
> > down in the lecture theatre. That was pretty much the norm.
>
> that long?
It was a big hill...
I can remember rushing and getting it done in less, but that cuts out
vital time eating Jaffa Cakes before the start of the lecture.
Rob.
Rob Collings
Jonathan Anderson wrote:
> Chris Kerr wrote:
> > If he is who I think he is, then he has had
> > a lot of involvement in CULRC earlier on this decade, but not so much in
> > the past two years, when these complaints have not been so valid.
>
> If you're thinking Pete Taylor I think you're well wide of the mark.
This is getting like a murder mystery. Who dunnit? Who is our anonymous
Pete?
Rob.
S M
If it is anything like the Oxford system then there is a whole series of
rules for colleges (administered by OURCS - Ox.Uni.Rowing.Clubs) and
transgressions of the rules result in monetary fines to clubs, which
must be paid to remain eligible to race in bumps which are organised by
OURCs. Similar to the above example, boating on the Isis (Oxford river)
at a time when the "gentlemen's" agreement between OURCs and the local
city clubs says colleges won't row can attract £50+ fines.
On another note there seemed an awful lot of Tab lightweight 4s on the
Thames at 4s head today - seemingly more than enough to field two crews...
Hannah
and makes
> me wonder about the potential for CUWBC and CULRC to switch training to
> afternoons and use the cam during the week, CUW definitely did this in the
> relatively recent past, possibly last year being 2000 boat race, but maybe
> earlier than that. At one time they trained on the cam regularly in the am
> and were still winning more often than not. I'd hope that this has been
> investigated!
I'm sure Chris will turn up shortly to officialise or not, but i heard
that CUL are training on both rivers at the mo? the problem we had
last year was that it was very difficult to find afternoons when we had
enough squd members free from supervisions, labs etc, whereas no-one
has academic commitments at 6am (unless its a *really* bad essay
crisis!)
Chris Kerr
Yes, CULRC have pretty much been alternating between Ely and the Cam,
depending on congestion levels (it may take 15 minutes on the train to get
to Ely, but on bad days it can easily take twice as long to get back from
Chesterton to the boathouses - the infuriating experience of spending most
of an outing sitting in a queue was one of the main reasons I decided to
join CULRC last year), daylight hours and our current training focus.
We did consider afternoon outings but it is just not possible with
practicals, supervisions and Ph.D.s - we could probably get a four out on
any given afternoon, but it would be a different four every time and
anyway, we would never be able to get a coach, because all of our coaches
either have jobs or academic commitments in the afternoons too.
Chris Kerr
>
> On another note there seemed an awful lot of Tab lightweight 4s on the
> Thames at 4s head today - seemingly more than enough to field two crews...
I think you will find that three times four is less than two times eight...
Anne Rogers
> We did consider afternoon outings but it is just not possible with
> practicals, supervisions and Ph.D.s - we could probably get a four out on
> any given afternoon, but it would be a different four every time and
> anyway, we would never be able to get a coach, because all of our coaches
> either have jobs or academic commitments in the afternoons too.
Not sure about CULRC, but around 2000ish, CUW did afternoon outings Tu, W,
Th on the cam and that was that, the trialists knew in advance that was what
it was going to be and arranged life around it. I imagine that makes it very
hard to arrange practicals in some subjects and I don't know if concessions
were ever made, either by the club, or by the subjects concerned.
Supervisions wise, it should be possible to arrange as needed, unless the
supervisor is particularly arsy, from the point of view of a supervisor, I
never knew which students were sporty, or even which other subjects they
were doing (1A natsci and compsci), so what, where, how long their
practicals would be etc.
It would seem to me that if afternoons were not used for training (I'm
guessing that given you're on morning outings then you must be using early
evening for land training), that life could get very tiring and a tired
athelete doesn't make a well performing athelete.
I guess no one is going to let us know what OULRC are doing!
Cheers
Anne
Anne Rogers
good for CULRC for being there, there were a lot of times in the early 2000s
when they weren't there, no I know they are training for a different race
than CUBC, but it certainly gives something to aim for in early
training/trialling and hopefully provide a platform to build on, or a kick
up the arse.
Cheers
Anne
Sarah F
Anne Rogers wrote:
>
> Not sure about CULRC, but around 2000ish, CUW did afternoon outings Tu, W,
> Th on the cam and that was that, the trialists knew in advance that was what
> it was going to be and arranged life around it. I imagine that makes it very
> hard to arrange practicals in some subjects and I don't know if concessions
> were ever made, either by the club, or by the subjects concerned.
> Supervisions wise, it should be possible to arrange as needed, unless the
> supervisor is particularly arsy, from the point of view of a supervisor, I
> never knew which students were sporty, or even which other subjects they
> were doing (1A natsci and compsci), so what, where, how long their
> practicals would be etc.
CUWBC used to do afternoon outings in Ely on tuesdays and thursdays in
the 2001/2 and 2002/3 seasons (not sure about the year before that). I
don't know who else it put off, but I certainly didn't row for them in
2001/2 when I had been considering it because it meant I would have had
to bin 33% of my course (or pick a different option to do) for my
finals... and I just wasn't prepared to do that. You can't re-arrange
lectures for a time more convenient and as I've said before CUBC can
only get around this because they have the funds (from sponsorship) to
support extra supervisions for people missing their lectures. Its bad
enough trying to arrange college outings for a single crew on the Cam
around peoples' afternoon commitments, without the extra time required
to go out to Ely...
Sarah
James Elder
Sarah F wrote:
> CUWBC used to do afternoon outings in Ely on tuesdays and thursdays in
> the 2001/2 and 2002/3 seasons (not sure about the year before that).
I could be misremembering, but my memory of the mid-nineties is that at
that time both CUWBC and CULRC did some if not all of their training on
the Cam. Bear in mind that this was a time when the Cambridge women's
Blue Boat and Blondie were winning consistently (and producing
internationals - Cath Bishop, Sarah Winckless, Alison Mowbray and
Francesca Zino all came out of CUWBC in that period) and the men's and
women's lightweights were generally well-matched with their opposition.
Potts would know as he coxed CUW in 1995.
Christopher Anton
"James Elder" <jamese...@excite.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1163934169.6...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Sarah F wrote:
>
>> CUWBC used to do afternoon outings in Ely on tuesdays and thursdays in
>> the 2001/2 and 2002/3 seasons (not sure about the year before that).
>
> I could be misremembering, but my memory of the mid-nineties is that at
> that time both CUWBC and CULRC did some if not all of their training on
> the Cam.
In the late 80s they certainly did. Also if a less crowded bit of river is
needed what about the bit below Baitsbite - you could be there 30 mins after
pushing off? Or has that now got considerably crowded.
Chris Kerr
The bit below Baitsbite is still fairly clear, and we can boat before
lighting down (whereas college crews are not allowed to) so we can get
there unobstructed, but we still have to get back - I would rather spend 15
minutes on a warm train (where you can actually stretch and/or read through
the notes for your lectures) than sitting, cold and wet, in a queue of
boats.
Also, the queues are much more unpredictable than train times (barring the
occasional 'leaves on the line') - I know that if we get off the water at
0810 in Ely then we can easily catch the 0825 train back to Cambridge,
giving plenty of time to get to lectures, whereas on the Cam you need to be
at Chesterton not long after 0800 to be sure of getting back in time, even
though the average time spent queueing is less.
Anne Rogers
> CUWBC used to do afternoon outings in Ely on tuesdays and thursdays in
> the 2001/2 and 2002/3 seasons (not sure about the year before that). I
> don't know who else it put off, but I certainly didn't row for them in
> 2001/2 when I had been considering it because it meant I would have had
> to bin 33% of my course (or pick a different option to do) for my
> finals... and I just wasn't prepared to do that. You can't re-arrange
> lectures for a time more convenient and as I've said before CUBC can
> only get around this because they have the funds (from sponsorship) to
> support extra supervisions for people missing their lectures. Its bad
> enough trying to arrange college outings for a single crew on the Cam
> around peoples' afternoon commitments, without the extra time required
> to go out to Ely...
that's just the kind of info I was looking for, I wonder though, if making
things such that everyone is able to make the times, that you actually end
up by having lower quality training and that if you stated up front what was
happening training wise, each individual would make the decision like you
did and either make different choice or not, for some, it's going to be
their last chance and making a different choice for finals along with rowing
for the university is going to be route, and others it's not. I always
thought the problem with organising outings in college was that we didn't
know in advance when it would be, it always seemed that if you had two
people doing the same subject, they'd never have practicals at the same
time, they'd have interleaving ones, and it would be too late to change,
then someone else who didn't have practicals would have arranged a
supervision on the one free afternoon the scientists had and you were stuck,
when theoretically it should have been possible to have managed at least 1
session.
I think timing wise, 2000/2001 they were on the cam and won lwts and blue
boat, losing the reserves race "easily" (though to be fair to them, their
stroke broke an arm a week before the race). 1999/2000, I think they were
also on the cam weekday afternoons and I presume they did so for some time
before that, Autumn 1998, there were trialling crews on the water in the
mornings and everyone knew you just got out of their way, they seemed to
sail through from LMBC and back pretty darn fast.
Cheers
Anne
Chris Kerr
Supervisions can definitely be (re)arranged to fit around afternoon outings.
However, I don't think the "marvels of the computer age" have made
organising practicals around outings any easier. First year NatScis are
allocated their practicals with absolutely no say in the matter, and this
year I had to spend a lot of time pleading to switch a practical, which was
advertised as ending at 5pm on the sign-up sheet but actually ends at 6, to
another day so that I could get to our evening erg training. (I expect that
it could have been a lot harder had not the Heads of Class of my two
practical classes been the current and most recent former Senior Treasurers
of CULRC).
Other subjects are little better; third year Experimental Physicsists have
just had practical class all day every day for two weeks, and of course
some students have lectures in the afternoons.
>
> I think timing wise, 2000/2001 they were on the cam and won lwts and blue
> boat, losing the reserves race "easily" (though to be fair to them, their
> stroke broke an arm a week before the race). 1999/2000, I think they were
> also on the cam weekday afternoons and I presume they did so for some time
> before that, Autumn 1998, there were trialling crews on the water in the
> mornings and everyone knew you just got out of their way, they seemed to
> sail through from LMBC and back pretty darn fast.
We tried 'sailing through' but the CUCBC started making noises and, since
they provide a significant proportion of our budget (from money raised
through fines and also the UBS sponsorship), we backed off. This annoyed me
considerably, especially since there is a rule (number 25 if I remember
correctly) saying that college crews must give way to University crews at
all times.
>
> Cheers
>
> Anne
Alistair Potts
James Elder wrote:
> Potts would know as he coxed CUW in 1995.
In 1995 CUW rowed on the Cam. We were the last year to train exclusively
at Cambridge (unless they've regressed in the mean time). The following
year they created a base at Ely for the first time for use in the Easter
term.
I did coaching for CUW lightweights in 97 though at Ely and thought it
was horrid. There were enough cars for no-one to have to get the train.
Probably better than the Cam.
(I started this reply by asserting that we'd actually trained at Ely. I
really thought we had... weird.)
As for Mowbray, Winckless et al. - we were all pretty novice. Winckless
had only been rowing for nine months. Ron Needs was convinced we were
going to lose, to the extent of telling one of the girl's mum as we
pushed off for the race "they're the worst crew I've coached in ten years".
Fortunately Oxford froze to death waiting on the stakeboat so it was all
ok in the end.
A
ng...@aol.com
Anne Rogers wrote:
> Not sure about CULRC, but around 2000ish, CUW did afternoon outings Tu, W,
> Th on the cam and that was that, the trialists knew in advance that was what
> it was going to be and arranged life around it.
Going back even further - up to the mid eighties or so, CULRC did
nothing till Fairbairns were over, then had all their trials and
selected the crew over the Christmas vac. In the Lent term the crew all
rowed with their colleges and had an additional couple of outings on
top of that with the LW crew. After Lents it was exclusively LW rowing.
They were doing this and winning regularly for quite a few years after
Oxford moved to a dedicated squad, as far as I recall.
I wonder if something like this might be worth trying again. As I see
it, it would have the advantage of reducing the extra commitment
required to a couple of outings per week, which it might be possible to
have pre-breakfast at the weekend - I don't imagine the CRA would beef
too much about a lightweight crew more or less on the river at that
time*. This might swing a few of the better lightweights who currently
don't trial in favour of having a go (and also make it feasible for
more than one year), as well as making the lightweights avaiable to
raise the standard of their college's rowing.
* e.g. last Saturday at 7:30am I think I saw two singles and a double
on the river. Yes, yes, I know it was the IVs Head...
Anne Rogers
> organising practicals around outings any easier. First year NatScis are
> allocated their practicals with absolutely no say in the matter, and this
> year I had to spend a lot of time pleading to switch a practical, which
> was
> advertised as ending at 5pm on the sign-up sheet but actually ends at 6,
> to
> another day so that I could get to our evening erg training. (I expect
> that
> it could have been a lot harder had not the Heads of Class of my two
> practical classes been the current and most recent former Senior
> Treasurers
> of CULRC).
yikes that would drive me nuts, even if you are not trying to do uni level
sport, it's still nice to be able to choose that you have your long
practical on the day of formal hall, or not as the case may be, so you have
a schedule that suits you and your chosen leisure activities
> We tried 'sailing through' but the CUCBC started making noises and, since
> they provide a significant proportion of our budget (from money raised
> through fines and also the UBS sponsorship), we backed off. This annoyed
> me
> considerably, especially since there is a rule (number 25 if I remember
> correctly) saying that college crews must give way to University crews at
> all times.
What!!! things have really changed, back when I was a novice (1998), you
stopped instantly and pulled blades right in, the threat was that the
college crew would get fined, not the uni crew. There were even occasional
CUBC outings on the cam. Each outing you'd probably only ever give way twice
and it was usually when you were stopped or slow anyway and it must have
made a big difference to the trialling crews, I estimate they hit Chesterton
at 8.30 and were pulling up outside LMBC between 8.40 and 8.45, not a
problem at all for getting to lectures.
Cheers
Anne
nc...@hotmail.com
I trialled for 3 years, and vitually never did an morning outing,
except at the weekend. Partly at Ely and partly in cambridge, in
199/2000 we had pre christmas on the cam, and I had a clever
spreadsheet to get 3 eights or so out 4 days a week, with the aim that
everyone did 3, everyone new that they needed to make tues, wed, thurs
afternoons available, like CUBC. We did have 45 odd people trialling
that year, so perhaps we could be strickter, but if you want to win,
you have to train effectively, and that aint the cam on an early
morning, and I've heard it has got worse since I was there.
It could all be a bit more interesting this year, now andy has left
Oxford. To be honest, after 2 good wins, we thought we'd set up a
system that woul;d give us a few years success, but then Oxford upped
the arms race with a good full time coach, and we lost the love bus and
a lot of coaching.
Nick
Chris Kerr
The idea of holding trials after Fairbairns is all very well for people at
colleges with good rowing programs over the winter (Caius, Clare, Downing,
FTT and LMBC, and I am not even sure about the last two) but most people
are not at these colleges. I can overtake most college first eights in a
scull, and I am not a particularly good sculler.
My college (St Catharine's) struggles to put out a (little better than
novice) four for two outings a week (and yet we are second on the river in
the May Bumps!): I would have given up rowing completely, as a number of my
friends from school have, if I had not been able to take it up at a
university level.
In fact, we are happy to have new people joining the squad, in theory up
until the final selection in February, although in practice straight after
Fairbairns is the latest any college rower could leave it - admittedly this
has not been publicised particularly well but there is still some interest.
>
> * e.g. last Saturday at 7:30am I think I saw two singles and a double
> on the river. Yes, yes, I know it was the IVs Head...
well, it wasn't us - as I have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, we took
everyone in our squad (and, because of injuries, I had to sort out a few
last-minute subs from colleges who hadn't got their entries in on time)
Anne Rogers
> My college (St Catharine's) struggles to put out a (little better than
> novice) four for two outings a week (and yet we are second on the river in
> the May Bumps!): I would have given up rowing completely, as a number of
> my
> friends from school have, if I had not been able to take it up at a
> university level.
funny how things change, but not all that long ago, early 2000s I'd think
Catz probably had one of the best training systems in the Michaelmas term.
The only way not starting trialling until after fairbairns would work is if
the vast majority of colleges were doing decent training programs, but even
then you'd have to wonder about the standard of technique, I've never
trialled myself, but I've stepped into the coxes seat on occasion and it
looks pretty darn wierd having 8 different college rowers all trying to do
there own thing!
Cheers
Anne
ng...@aol.com
Chris Kerr wrote:
> ng...@aol.com wrote:
> > * e.g. last Saturday at 7:30am I think I saw two singles and a double
> > on the river. Yes, yes, I know it was the IVs Head...
>
> well, it wasn't us - as I have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, we took
> everyone in our squad (and, because of injuries, I had to sort out a few
> last-minute subs from colleges who hadn't got their entries in on time)
I wasn't having a dig at anyone's being on the river - that was the sum
total of boats out (and I was in one). I was just pointing out that
there's scope for a decent outing at that time of day at the weekend,
provided not everybody piles in.
Hannah
> >> Not sure about CULRC, but around 2000ish, CUW did afternoon outings Tu,
> >> W, Th on the cam and that was that, the trialists knew in advance that
> >> was what it was going to be and arranged life around it.
Maybe the university was more supportive towards lightweight/womens
rowing in your day? i know my supervisors and my senior tutor spent
several months trying to get me to drop trialling, if i'd asked to
rearrange superivsions etc around it they'd have gone ballistic.
> > Going back even further - up to the mid eighties or so, CULRC did
> > nothing till Fairbairns were over, then had all their trials and
> > selected the crew over the Christmas vac. In the Lent term the crew all
> > rowed with their colleges and had an additional couple of outings on
> > top of that with the LW crew. After Lents it was exclusively LW rowing.
> > They were doing this and winning regularly for quite a few years after
> > Oxford moved to a dedicated squad, as far as I recall.
> > I wonder if something like this might be worth trying again. As I see
> > it, it would have the advantage of reducing the extra commitment
> > required to a couple of outings per week, which it might be possible to
> > have pre-breakfast at the weekend - I don't imagine the CRA would beef
> > too much about a lightweight crew more or less on the river at that
> > time*. This might swing a few of the better lightweights who currently
> > don't trial in favour of having a go (and also make it feasible for
> > more than one year), as well as making the lightweights available to
> > raise the standard of their college's rowing.
Chris is right, it's possible it might swing a few people to trial but
unlikely, as most college rowers are keener to do Lents than to do
fairbairns, and it would definately exclude traillists from more than
half the colleges; apart from loosing several months of technical
training, there is no way you could get their base fitness to the
required level in the time.
according to old reminiscing coaches - no idea how reliable - , college
crews did significantly more training (and significantly less studying)
in the eighties that they do today.