Lance Storm puts the DVDVR boyz in their rightful place!
DChance
on his website at www.stormwrestling.com . This
week, Lance looks at the internet rubedom and their
pathetic attempts at rating workers:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Commentary
Rating Workers
Can it be done?
May 15,2001
A friend of mine sent me a link to a web site that rates workers. In fact
they produce a top 500 workers in the business list
(www.deathvalleydriver.com/dvd500.html). He sent this to me because we have,
on numerous occasions, talked and debated over what makes up a great worker.
I've said many times that I don't feel you can accurately rate workers and I
think lists like this prove my point. With wrestling being such a subjective
art it becomes largely a matter of taste. Even considering a list, such as
this, to be accurate not to mention feeling yourself qualified to make such
a list, without actually working with the people on it, is ludicrous and to
be honest I find it quite offensive.
I don't think anyone outside of the business can have a complete grasp of
what being a great worker is all about and the complexities involved there
in. Granted avid fans, that pay attention, can tell who has talent and who
doesn't, but to think you understand the business enough to determine
whether Eddie Guerrero is a better worker than Chris Benoit or visa versa is
insane. I've been in the business 11 years and am considered a damn fine
worker yet I can't answer that question. I realize they are both very
talented guys but being that I haven't worked either of them I don't know
for sure what all they each bring to the table.
Let me first point out a few thing that I feel make up a great worker that
more often than not fans over look. First and foremost safety, if a guy is
beating the hell out of you in order to make his stuff look good, I don't
consider him a good worker. You also have to have the ability to work around
your injuries and others'. You have to be able to wrestle a diversity of
matches and opponents and still look good. You have to have the ability to
make others look good despite their shortcomings. You have to be able to put
together a great match, execute it, and lead others through it. You also
have to, and this one is a dieing art, be able to work the people. Make them
buy what you are selling, not just throw a bunch of high spots out there so
they can go "OH!" When you do that you are letting the fans call the match,
and they are working you. (I may get into this aspect more next week)
Okay now on to the list. I'm basically going to pick wholes in it to show
how these lists are never accurate or fair to those of us who are on it. I
don't think the creators of the list should take offence. My doing this
commentary will likely generate more traffic for their little list than they
ever imagined. Like they say, "Any press is good press!"
1. Kawada: Now I haven't seen any of his stuff in a while, and I'm told it
has been extremely good but let's be honest here. His stuff looks good
because its พ's legit. He beats the hell out of guys. Does anyone honestly
think he could wrestle non All Japan style matches? Could he work someone
who has a neck injury and still have a good match? Could he pull off a
decent match with a very limited North American style worker? Kawada is very
good at his certain style of match with the workers he's been working with
for the last 5-10 years. Is he truly well rounded and diverse enough to be
considered the best this sport has? I doubt it.
20. Chris Daniels: Nothing against the guy, he's actually a friend of mine
and I think he's quite talented, but he does not have the experience level
or the ability to dictate and carry a match to warrant this ranking. Putting
him way ahead of guys like Hunter and Eddie just shows that our list makers
are marks for Indy guys who do a ton of moves. I don't think Chris would put
himself ahead of a lot of the guys he's ahead of on this list.
26. Great Sasuke: Everybody loves this guy, and granted he's fun to watch,
but believe me he is not a great worker. I've worked with the guy and I
would call him a poor to very poor worker. He has good execution of spots
and is one of the best aerial flyers there is but when the high spots are
over this guy can't work a lick! Working 6-man lucha matches there isn't
much outside of the spots and the dives so you don't notice it, but believe
me if he's not in there with a guy to carry the wrestling this guy is lost!
45. HHH: Come on, here is a guy with versatility who has head lined and
stole the show on PPV and he's ranked below several Indy workers. Give me a
break!
60. Lance Storm: I won't comment. My opinion is likely bias. I just thought
you would want to know where I ranked.
90. Cham Pain: I know this guy, and I've seen him work. Placing him 58 spots
ahead of Billy Kidman should be a crime punishable by death!
148. Billy Kidman: See # 90.
250. This one is a classic example of people not understanding what the word
"Worker" even means. Jarrett is a classic great worker. He can go to the
ring with nothing and run a match on the fly. I know I've worked him. Our
match was put over in the sheets and on the net. We both worked 2 or three
times that night and we went to the ring with nothing but "Let's just throw
it back and forth, get a lot of near falls, and we'll hit the "Stroke" when
Steiner comes out" That is working. Everyone in the WCW locker room loves
working with Jeff, because it's easy. He doesn't have Flair charisma on
interviews, he doesn't have an RVD offensive move set, and he doesn't have
Lex Luger's body, but Jarrett can damn sure work. If there are 249 better
workers in this sport than Jeff Jarrett, there is 200-240 of them I'm yet to
meet!
312. Ricky Morton: I haven't seen any of his work of late but Ricky Morton
on his deathbed is a better worker than half this business.
500. RVD: I will be the first person to say Rob isn't the most diverse
well-rounded worker out there, but to use any criteria to get Rob this far
down a list would also eliminate most of the guys in the top 100.
Well those are a few of the more interesting rankings. Where everyone
actually belongs, I have no idea! I just like pointing out the fact that "A
great match does not a great worker make!"
Till next week,
Lance
-----------------------------------------------
LOL! I can see it now... "Who the Hell does he think he is?"
"How dare he disagree with us?" "He doesn't like Kawada or
Sasuke... he must be anti-Japan!" "What does he have against
the indy workers?" "He probably hasn't watched a tape in years!"
"Why, why... he doesn't know what he's talking about. We're
Tha' Playaz! We're experts! He's just a worker, a mark for
himself and his buddies... yeah, that's it!"
Sit back and watch this one, boys... it's gonna be fun reading!
Good Gawd!
DDC
TentaclePorn
<DCh...@cox-internet.com> spewed forth:
>because its ¾'s legit. He beats the hell out of guys. Does anyone honestly
It's like Drazic says "I bet they are both crying at what he said and
jizzing that he acknowledged their exsistance".
Poor POOART is probably beside himself.
ViNNY
news:tg25s9e...@corp.supernews.com...
> LOL! I can see it now... "Who the Hell does he think he is?"
> "How dare he disagree with us?" "He doesn't like Kawada or
> Sasuke... he must be anti-Japan!" "What does he have against
> the indy workers?" "He probably hasn't watched a tape in years!"
> "Why, why... he doesn't know what he's talking about. We're
> Tha' Playaz! We're experts! He's just a worker, a mark for
> himself and his buddies... yeah, that's it!"
>
> Sit back and watch this one, boys... it's gonna be fun reading!
I seriously doubt you'll see anything like that. Anyone with a brain
realises that the DVDVR 500 is the 500 favourite workers of a handful of
guys with a website, and Lance Storm disagrees. Hell, check the board over
there and you'll see that everyone disagrees with it. I really don't see the
problem.
-Vin
TentaclePorn
spewed forth:
Quiet you dirty paster.
STUART
> "How dare he disagree with us?" "He doesn't like Kawada or
> Sasuke... he must be anti-Japan!" "What does he have against
> the indy workers?" "He probably hasn't watched a tape in years!"
> "Why, why... he doesn't know what he's talking about. We're
> Tha' Playaz! We're experts! He's just a worker, a mark for
> himself and his buddies... yeah, that's it!"
As always, you don't actually make any points yourself, just make smartass
trollish comments. So let's see. You hate WWF fans. You hate Japanese
wrestling fans. Boy, why are you here? Oh yeah, you need the attention.
Dipshit.
P.S. Storm's entitled to his opinion, but the vibes I get is that he hasn't
watched much wrestling in the past few years.
--
Wrestling Viewpoint! - http://www.viewpoint.f2s.com - Puroresu & American
wrestling reviews, rosters, recommended matches and more.
Strong Style Spirit - http://www.njpw.f2s.com - New Japan Pro-Wrestling
resource site, with results, rosters/biographies and more.
Jeff Wahlman
stu...@NOSPAMf2s.com says...
> P.S. Storm's entitled to his opinion, but the vibes I get is that he hasn't
> watched much wrestling in the past few years.
I can agree with Kawada but his opinion on Sasuke certainly has merit,
considering he's actually worked with him. Granted the DVDVR 500 really
measures good matches you've had over the past year and not necessarily
how good of a worker they are, therefore it favors wrestlers who have
good opponents and have time for matches.
And granted after the first few dozen or so it's more of a joke than
anything (i.e. Shane McMahon ahead of RVD).
Fro
STUART
news:MPG.156b71f5a...@news.seidata.com...
> I can agree with Kawada
His comments on Kawada not being able to work outside the AJ style is one of
the most inaccurate things he could have said. Kawada had the (much praised)
(IMO) match of the year in a tag match (teaming with a 45+ year old) against
two *New Japan* wrestlers. Kawada's also faced a ton of new guys in the past
year.
> but his opinion on Sasuke certainly has merit
Well, this relates to my point of him not watching tapes. Sasuke has had
matches that Storm could only dream of having. Sasuke faces outsiders every
month and has shown immense versatility, even at this stage of his career.
He carried inexperienced NOAH junior, Naomichi Marufuji, to a ***1/4 (my
rating; I've seen some higher) match for instance.
> considering he's actually worked with him.
He worked with Sasuke in late '97, when Sasuke's knee was fucked and he was
readying himself for surgery; thus the storyline with Sasuke vs. Credible.
Storm raves about "his" student Credible, but Sasuke *clearly* carried that
match and guided Credible past his usual mediocrity.
NatrBoy72
Sasuke can also have strong traditional wrestling matches as well as the lucha
such as his match with a young Magnum Tokyo
Rockboy
>
> P.S. Storm's entitled to his opinion, but the vibes I get is that he hasn't
> watched much wrestling in the past few years.
Yeah, he's been too busy with his career as, get this, a wrestler.
--
Baron von Rockboy
Yes, I am part of the problem.
Rockboy
Damn that Lance Storm! He hasn't been watching tapes like you have.
Clearly his knowledge of the wrestling business can't compete with
someone like you. He's only been wrestling for 11 years. You're a kid
with a VCR. I think we've established who's opinion really matters.
Chad Bryant
> > P.S. Storm's entitled to his opinion, but the vibes I get is that he
hasn't
> > watched much wrestling in the past few years.
>
> Yeah, he's been too busy with his career as, get this, a wrestler.
For once, both Stuart and Rockboy are wrong.
I find it hard to assume from Storm's comments about DVDVR that he doesn't
watch tapes. It's a lot more likely that he views them in a completely
different frame of mind, having the frame of reference of an actual worker,
rather than some guy who just watches a bunch of wrestling tapes as a hobby.
And if Storm is "busy with his career as a wrestler", it almost assuredly
includes watching videotapes, even if the tapes are of his own matches.
--
Chad Bryant
ch...@chadbryant.cjb.net
www.chadbryant.cjb.net
"I read RSPW about as much as AutoDaFe reads the Bible."
-Mr. 420
"If i could read Google on the can, I'd never stop pooping."
-Greasyfries
ViNNY
news:km84gtgkfl366vmh4...@4ax.com...
> LOL, nuthin funnier than a bunch of elitist know-F-all smarky snobs
getting
> ridden!
Undertaker rulez!!!!!
-Vin
STUART
matters.
Yeah. Similarly, sports analysts and commentators shouldn't be allowed to do
that unless they are former participants in the sport. People who are
interested in politics should not be able to have opinions about George W.
Bush unless they are former Presidents of the United States themelves. Real
estate agents should not be allowed to talk about which house is the best
unless they used to be a house. Oh yeah, and Ebert shouldn't be allowed to
comment on movies because he hasn't directed one!
ViNNY
news:3b02f350$0$25488$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
He's written some, though :)
If fans didn't have opinions the AWF would still be in business..
-Vin
Rockboy
>
> > You're a kid with a VCR. I think we've established who's opinion really
> matters.
>
> Yeah. Similarly, sports analysts and commentators shouldn't be allowed to do
> that unless they are former participants in the sport.
Sports commentators aren't kids with VCRs. They're a lot more involved
in their sport than you'll ever be.
STUART
news:3B035C98...@telusplanet.net...
> STUART wrote:
> > Yeah. Similarly, sports analysts and commentators shouldn't be allowed
to do
> > that unless they are former participants in the sport.
>
> Sports commentators aren't kids with VCRs. They're a lot more involved
> in their sport than you'll ever be.
Notice you cut half of my post out, because you know I'm right and don't
have any answers. Sports commentators analyze sports, just like wrestling
fans analyze wrestling. The PBP guys have never played though, so know
nothing!
Rockboy
>
> > > Yeah. Similarly, sports analysts and commentators shouldn't be allowed
> to do
> > > that unless they are former participants in the sport.
> >
> > Sports commentators aren't kids with VCRs. They're a lot more involved
> > in their sport than you'll ever be.
>
> Notice you cut half of my post out, because you know I'm right and don't
> have any answers. Sports commentators analyze sports, just like wrestling
> fans analyze wrestling. The PBP guys have never played though, so know
> nothing!
I take it you don't watch many sports. Hockey, football, baseball, all
have commentators that have played before.
STUART
> I take it you don't watch many sports. Hockey, football, baseball, all
> have commentators that have played before.
But what about those that haven't? You're really stretching here. Not
everyone that has analyzed sports has played the sport. Not everyone that
analyze movies has been in a movie or directed a movie. Not everyone that
analyzes politics has been a politician. Not everyone that analyzes
professional wrestling has been a wrestler. Oh! That's right. So,
If you haven't done it.
You can't talk about it.
You all have 24 hours to vacate RSPW, because you've never been a wrestler
so know nothing about it. ;)
Bill Elder
>have any answers. Sports commentators analyze sports, just like wrestling
>fans analyze wrestling. The PBP guys have never played though, so know
>nothing!
Correct, the play by play guys havent. This would be the equivalent of simply
telling people what ____ move is actually called and who performed it, etc.
Most sports analysts are former coaches or players.
-------------------------------------
I am the G.O.A.T.
Bill Elder
participant CAN'T judge said sport, it's that they're opinions aren't as
reliable as those of the people who have. If it's not making sense to you read
the chapters in Tim Green's "The Dark Side Of The Game" about the media. He's
been on both sides of the coin and says the same thing.
>But what about those that haven't? You're really stretching here. Not
>everyone that has analyzed sports has played the sport. Not everyone that
>analyze movies has been in a movie or directed a movie. Not everyone that
>analyzes politics has been a politician. Not everyone that analyzes
>professional wrestling has been a wrestler. Oh! That's right. So,
>
>If you haven't done it.
>
>You can't talk about it.
>
>You all have 24 hours to vacate RSPW, because you've never been a wrestler
>so know nothing about it. ;)
STUART
news:20010517190045...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
> You're missing his point. It's not that people who haven't actively been a
> participant CAN'T judge said sport, it's that they're opinions aren't as
> reliable as those of the people who have. If it's not making sense to you
read
> the chapters in Tim Green's "The Dark Side Of The Game" about the media.
He's
> been on both sides of the coin and says the same thing.
Okay.
Lance Storm: "Kawada: Now *I haven't seen any of his stuff in a while*, and
I'm told it has been extremely good but let's be honest here."
Simply because he's a wrestler, does that make him more informed about
Kawada than those people who see *every* televised match of his? I don't
think so. Storm was commenting about guys he self-admittedly hasn't seen for
a while, when the DVDVR500 judges the past 6 months of work. In fact, his
main point about Kawada (not being able to wrestle outside the AJ style) is
*exactly* what proves the point wrong, since he's wrestled non-AJ style guys
like Nagata, Nagai, Kakihara, Iizuka, Sasaki in the past six months and is
set to face New Japan's tag champs, Tenzan and Kojima, in singles matches
over two days. So I don't think his opinion means anything towards those
guys, even though he has wrestled.
Rockboy
>
> >Notice you cut half of my post out, because you know I'm right and don't
> >have any answers. Sports commentators analyze sports, just like wrestling
> >fans analyze wrestling. The PBP guys have never played though, so know
> >nothing!
>
> Correct, the play by play guys havent. This would be the equivalent of simply
> telling people what ____ move is actually called and who performed it, etc.
> Most sports analysts are former coaches or players.
My point exactly. Good god, Bill Elder and I are in agreement.
Bill Elder
>simply
>> telling people what ____ move is actually called and who performed it, etc.
>> Most sports analysts are former coaches or players.
>
>My point exactly. Good god, Bill Elder and I are in agreement.
It's a fluke.
Bill Elder
>
>Lance Storm: "Kawada: Now *I haven't seen any of his stuff in a while*, and
>I'm told it has been extremely good but let's be honest here."
>Simply because he's a wrestler, does that make him more informed about
>Kawada than those people who see *every* televised match of his? I don't
>think so.
No, he also never said that Kawada is a bad worker. He said that he's a
dangerous worker and that from the opinion of an actual wrestler his dangerous
style (stiff kicks mostly) is a lot less preferable to work against as compared
to a style like Jarretts.
>Storm was commenting about guys he self-admittedly hasn't seen for
>a while, when the DVDVR500 judges the past 6 months of work. In fact, his
>main point about Kawada (not being able to wrestle outside the AJ style) is
>*exactly* what proves the point wrong, since he's wrestled non-AJ style guys
>like Nagata, Nagai, Kakihara, Iizuka, Sasaki in the past six months and is
>set to face New Japan's tag champs, Tenzan and Kojima, in singles matches
>over two days. So I don't think his opinion means anything towards those
>guys, even though he has wrestled.
His point wasn't about Kawada's recent work or ANY of his work. It was a
reference to the style which he works within (not necessarily the head
dropping, just the simple fact of extreme stiffness). What the guys at DVDVR
are looking for isnt what makes a great worker in the eyes of most wrestlers.
MikeyJericholic
>have commentators that have played before.
>
You're thinking of color commentators. The play by play announcers, for the
most part, never played collegiately, or professionally. There are exceptions
however.
"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy
test." - George W. Bush
Chad Bryant
> >I take it you don't watch many sports. Hockey, football, baseball, all
> >have commentators that have played before.
> >
>
> You're thinking of color commentators. The play by play announcers, for
the
> most part, never played collegiately, or professionally. There are
exceptions
> however.
You hush! Opie thought he was right. You ruined it!
Ruiner!
Rockboy
>
> "MikeyJericholic" wrote:
>
> > >I take it you don't watch many sports. Hockey, football, baseball, all
> > >have commentators that have played before.
> > >
> >
> > You're thinking of color commentators. The play by play announcers, for
> the
> > most part, never played collegiately, or professionally. There are
> exceptions
> > however.
>
> You hush! Opie thought he was right. You ruined it!
>
> Ruiner!
Chad & Stunnatime, now that's a combo to be scared of. Why don't you
two tell me more about how alcohol is bad?
Chad Bryant
> > > >I take it you don't watch many sports. Hockey, football, baseball,
all
> > > >have commentators that have played before.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You're thinking of color commentators. The play by play announcers,
for
> > the
> > > most part, never played collegiately, or professionally. There are
> > exceptions
> > > however.
> >
> > You hush! Opie thought he was right. You ruined it!
> >
> > Ruiner!
>
> Chad & Stunnatime, now that's a combo to be scared of. Why don't you
> two tell me more about how alcohol is bad?
I'd rather tell you about the fact that you resemble an intoxicated,
feminine, young version of Ron Howard.
<YAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK>
STUART
> His point wasn't about Kawada's recent work or ANY of his work. It was a
> reference to the style which he works within (not necessarily the head
> dropping, just the simple fact of extreme stiffness). What the guys at
DVDVR
> are looking for isnt what makes a great worker in the eyes of most
wrestlers.
He said that Kawada shouldn't be #1 (not directly, but "Is he truly well
rounded and diverse enough to be considered the best this sport has? I doubt
it."
His points to back this up were,
"His stuff looks good because its ¾'s legit." - Completely disregarding
Kawada's expertise at structuring a match. His stuff looks good because it
*is* good.
"Does anyone honestly think he could wrestle non All Japan style matches?" -
He has. Many times. In the past 6 months.
"Could he work someone who has a neck injury and still have a good match?" -
Mitsuharu Misawa.
"Could he pull off a decent match with a very limited North American style
worker?" - Ace. Albright. Steele. Barton. Omori.
"Is he truly well rounded and diverse enough to be considered the best this
sport has? I doubt it." - I think Lance is wrong.
What DVDVR guys look for (in most cases) is workrate + recent form. Some
people don't seem to understand this, but with that criteria, IMO, only Yuji
Nagata and Minoru Tanaka are close to Kawada right now.