International wrestling
Herb Kunze
>- What is "Lucha Libre" wrestling? I have heard people mention
> it, but I'm not exactly sure what it is. My impression is
> that it is a style of wrestling that exists in Mexico
> (elsewhere, too?); but how is it different from American
> wrestling? Herb Kunze mentioned that in their Clash of
> Champions match the Young Pistols "are trying to incorporate
> some Lucha Libre style moves into their arsenal". I watched
> the CofC, but I didn't notice them doing much differently. Of
> course, I really can't stand them, so I wasn't paying 100%
> attention to their match. Is is that they were doing more
> synchronized moves? Is that what Lucha Libre basically is?
I have several hours of Lucha Libre wrestling in the mail to
me. It's only through discussion with several hardcore fans
that are off the net that I've put together my interpretation
of the Lucha style. It's pretty silly really, since I'm a
couple weeks away from actually seeing it. Lucha Libre is
compared to ballet by these guys. The style has no rhyme
or reason on the surface. It's just a bunch of crazy high
spots that are impossible to follow, leaving the (unintiated)
viewer confused. When it was described to me like this, I
mentioned that the Young Pistols were doing some pretty crazy
stuff at SuperBrawl (similar to what they did last night -
especially Tracey) and was immediately told that the Pistols
had gleaned that style from Lucha Libre.
I'll have more to say in the near future I guess.
Jushin Riger is apparently planning to go to Mexico to learn a
bit of the Lucha style (and search for opponents of his caliber
no doubt).
>- A lot of people on this net seem to be very up on Japanese
> wrestling. How is the Japanese style different from American?
There are several different styles among all the different
federations running shows in Japan. The UWF (now folded and
replaced with other promotions) promoted a shooting style,
where everything was believed to be legitimate and pro-wrestling
moves could actually get you disqualified. This was the hottest
promotion in the world in 1989-1990. They have one promotion
that just does gimmick matches, like barbed wire matches and
chair matches, etc. (In a chair match, both men enter the ring
armed with a chair and can use it in any way ;-)). The more
"standard" promotions are All Japan and New Japan. The style
is more typical pro, but with a heavy stress on workrate.
Most matches have a point where we have one "hot" move after
another with nobody resting and very close falls being counted.
(I would say that the Steiners vs. Sting & Luger match from
SuperBrawl was as close to a Japanese style match as I've seen
from an American promotion. One hot move after another. Of
course, they rested a bit more between moves to work the crowd
up, and they tired a lot sooner). There's also a reasonably high
amount of aerial moves, especially in the New Japan Jr. Heavyweight
division or in the All Japan Women promotion. Usually, when
somebody sees some Japanese stuff for the first time, they
comment on how stiff the work is and how hard the wrestlers
work.
One of the new promotions on the block in Japan, Super World
Sports (that works with the WWF in Japan), is trying to work more
of a North American style. They are, of course, not taken
seriously at all. At the moment, they are drawing reasonable
crowds because they put on infrequent shows, but at least half
their crowd is always freebies. I'm getting a video tape of
their recent shows in Tokyo and Kobe. On the Kobe show, Hulk
Hogan met Yoshiaki Yatsu. The Hulkster tried to mat-wrestle
Yatsu for the whole match and the crowd laughed at him. I'm
told that there were some camera shots of Hogan looking pretty
pissed that the crowd wasn't supporting his efforts. Unfortunately,
they're not brainwashed to love his shtick.
> I assume that there's nowhere near as much shtick in the
> Japanese wrestling. They don't have anything comparable to
> their own Red Rooster, Undertaker, Oz, or Big Josh, do they?
You're right, to a degree. Jushin Riger or Tiger Mask both
have/had cartoon character counterparts to get them over with
the fans. Riger's gimmick is that he is a combination of a
Lion and a Tiger (hence his americanized name should be Liger,
but I can't be bothered to change my spelling of it now) and
the god of all animals. That's pretty gimmicky. But it never
has an effect on his matches. He never stops to listen the
big feline in the sky and see whether he should continue his
match; he doesn't have a "natural" fear of dogs or anything.
The American gimmicks are non-existent.
> Do they just wrestle? The very little I have seen seems to be
> almost no gimmick, just a lot of high-flying, acrobatic
> wrestling. Is that an accurate assessment?
A little simplified, but true in a lot of cases.
> And when Muta is
> wrestling in Japan (not for the WCW, but for his regular
> federation), does he still spit the mist?
Muta wrestles under his real name, Keiji Muto, and wears a
normal ring outfit, not the pants we see him in here. There's
no face paint and no mist.
> And do Japanese
> wrestlers salt the ring "to ward off the evil spirits" like
> they have traditionally done here in America?
Nope. That's a creation of xenophobic American promoters.
> Likewise, when American wrestlers
> go to Japan and wrestle (again, not for the WWF or WCW, but
> for the Japanese federations), do they have some stupid,
> stereotypical American gimmick (the way the Japanese use the
> salt or mist here) that the Japanese fans like, but that they
> don't use here in the States?
Nope. They just wrestle and work damn hard to get over. The
fans in Japan are a lot "smarter" than US fans on average. They
cheer hot moves performed by any wrestler. They appreciate and
respect the efforts and abilities of the pro-wrestlers.
> Do Bamm Bamm Gordy or Stan
> Hansen, for example, do anything differently there than we
> would see them do here? Like spit Jack Daniels into their
> opponents' eyes or bring six-shooters into the ring "to ward
> off the evil spirits"?
Heh heh. Nope. Just work damn stiff. Stan Hansen is so incredibly
over in Japan that it's scary.
>- Speaking of Hansen, have he and Van Vader headed back to
> Japan? Since everything I've ever read about Hansen says
> that he could care less about federations and titles, does he
> really make a lot more money in Japan than he could ever make
> here? Are the great American wrestlers generally worth more
> in Japan than they are here?
Stan Hansen (and Vader, I believe) both have a $100000 deal with
WCW. They will do 100 shows in the year, each for $1000. I'm
fairly sure that these guys can earn more in Japan in half a year
than they could here in a full year, working full time for either
of the big 2.
It depends what you mean by "great American wrestlers." Someone
like the Ultimate Warrior is worth squat in Japan. Sid Vicious
would get a pop until he tried to work. Someone like Cactus Jack
who is relegated to working independents over here was a big
success on his recent Japan tour. Guys like Ricky Steamboat
or Ric Flair have some trouble working in Japan because they
do so many spots that get heat in America but don't get heat
in Japan. For example, remember in the Tokyo Starrcade match
between Flair and Fujinami where Flair was setting Fujinami up
for the figure four by draping Fujinami's leg over the bottom
rope and sitting on it? This is a common spot here in America,
especially for Ric Flair, but the Japanese fans looked at it
as bullshit. The fans were booing like crazy, and Jim Ross
commented on how the fans hate Ric Flair. Not true. They were
booing the stupid maneuver. At the same time they didn't cheer
at all for the Frankensteiner because they see it performed
constantly by Doug Furnas and not as a finishing move.
>- Finally, when I think of successful American wrestlers in
> Japan, I immediately think of Hansen and Bruiser Brody (as
> well as Gordy and Vader). Is it just the big, brawling
> Americans who sell there? Or are there also examples of
> smaller, talented American wrestlers making it big in Japan in
> the Japanese federations?
Hansen, Brody, and Gordy all work for All Japan wrestling. Their
product seems to concentrate on the big men and always has a
brawling aspect to it. Hansen & Brody were a phenomenal tag team.
Now we have teams from the pool of Hansen, Gordy, Steve Williams
and Dan Spivey duking it out for the All Japan tag titles. The
smaller teams like Johnny Smith & Dynamite Kid and Doug Furnas & Dan
Kroffat fight for the secondary tag title (All Asian, I believe).
Other North Americans working in Japan on a regular basis at the
moment include Johnny Ace, Dory Funk, Bam Bam Bigelow, Brad Rheingans
Bobby Fulton, Tommy Rogers, and Terry Funk (until his back injury).
New Japan has it's big athletes too. Van Vader and more recently
Scott Norton are getting over. But they have a Jr. Heavyweight
division that is spearheaded by Jushin Riger. Former Stampede
stars, Owen Hart and Chris Benoit (working as Pegasus Kid) get
over big in this group.
Herb...
P.S. Mike, if you're interested in checking out some Japanese wrestling
on video, drop me some e-mail. I'll trade for pretty much anything
of interest that I don't have, excluding anything from the WWF (which
I don't want ;-)). I don't sell tapes, but perhaps you have some WCW
shows (live PPVs or Clashes or anything) that interest me and that I
don't have. This offer goes for anybody else on the net too.
m...@apollo.com
I have some questions about non-American wrestling.
- What is "Lucha Libre" wrestling? I have heard people mention
it, but I'm not exactly sure what it is. My impression is
that it is a style of wrestling that exists in Mexico
(elsewhere, too?); but how is it different from American
wrestling? Herb Kunze mentioned that in their Clash of
Champions match the Young Pistols "are trying to incorporate
some Lucha Libre style moves into their arsenal". I watched
the CofC, but I didn't notice them doing much differently. Of
course, I really can't stand them, so I wasn't paying 100%
attention to their match. Is is that they were doing more
synchronized moves? Is that what Lucha Libre basically is?
- A lot of people on this net seem to be very up on Japanese
wrestling. How is the Japanese style different from American?
I assume that there's nowhere near as much shtick in the
Japanese wrestling. They don't have anything comparable to
their own Red Rooster, Undertaker, Oz, or Big Josh, do they?
Do they just wrestle? The very little I have seen seems to be
almost no gimmick, just a lot of high-flying, acrobatic
wrestling. Is that an accurate assessment? And when Muta is
wrestling in Japan (not for the WCW, but for his regular
federation), does he still spit the mist? And do Japanese
wrestlers salt the ring "to ward off the evil spirits" like
they have traditionally done here in America? I assume the
mist and salt are just Americanized gimmicks for Japanese
wrestlers who wrestle here. Likewise, when American wrestlers
go to Japan and wrestle (again, not for the WWF or WCW, but
for the Japanese federations), do they have some stupid,
stereotypical American gimmick (the way the Japanese use the
salt or mist here) that the Japanese fans like, but that they
don't use here in the States? Do Bamm Bamm Gordy or Stan
Hansen, for example, do anything differently there than we
would see them do here? Like spit Jack Daniels into their
opponents' eyes or bring six-shooters into the ring "to ward
off the evil spirits"?
- Speaking of Hansen, have he and Van Vader headed back to
Japan? Since everything I've ever read about Hansen says
that he could care less about federations and titles, does he
really make a lot more money in Japan than he could ever make
here? Are the great American wrestlers generally worth more
in Japan than they are here?
- Finally, when I think of successful American wrestlers in
Japan, I immediately think of Hansen and Bruiser Brody (as
well as Gordy and Vader). Is it just the big, brawling
Americans who sell there? Or are there also examples of
smaller, talented American wrestlers making it big in Japan in
the Japanese federations?
Thanks a lot for the info,
Mike McNulty
Nicholas J. Simicich
>In article <910613195...@xuucp.ch.apollo.hp.com>, m...@APOLLO.COM writes:
>> And do Japanese
>> wrestlers salt the ring "to ward off the evil spirits" like
>> they have traditionally done here in America?
> Nope. That's a creation of xenophobic American promoters.
Um, wasn't this intended to be a sort of parody of the Japanese Sumo
ritual? I suspect that if you look at the sequence of events, and who
copied who in terms of styles, there is a logical progression that has
nothing to do with xenophobia.
--
Nick Simicich - uunet!bywater!scifi!njs - n...@watson.ibm.com
SSI #AOWI 3958, HSA 318
Herb Kunze
> In article <1991Jun13.2...@watmath.waterloo.edu> hek...@watmsg.waterloo.edu (Herb Kunze) writes:
> >In article <910613195...@xuucp.ch.apollo.hp.com>, m...@APOLLO.COM writes:
> >> And do Japanese
> >> wrestlers salt the ring "to ward off the evil spirits" like
> >> they have traditionally done here in America?
>
> > Nope. That's a creation of xenophobic American promoters.
>
> Um, wasn't this intended to be a sort of parody of the Japanese Sumo
> ritual? I suspect that if you look at the sequence of events, and who
> copied who in terms of styles, there is a logical progression that has
> nothing to do with xenophobia.
You're probably right, Nick. I didn't really think about it.
Herb...
Mike Steiner
writes:
> - What is "Lucha Libre" wrestling? I have heard people mention
> it, but I'm not exactly sure what it is. My impression is
> that it is a style of wrestling that exists in Mexico
> (elsewhere, too?); but how is it different from American
> wrestling?
"Luche Libra" is the Spanish term for wrestling. Each country tends to
have its own wrestling style. The Mexican style is sometimes referred to
as the luca libre style because of that.
Opionions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of any other
entity, living, dead, or otherwise.
Mike Steiner
In article <1991Jun13.2...@watmath.waterloo.edu>
hek...@watmsg.waterloo.edu (Herb Kunze) writes:
> > And do Japanese
> > wrestlers salt the ring "to ward off the evil spirits" like
> > they have traditionally done here in America?
>
> Nope. That's a creation of xenophobic American promoters.
That schtick is taken from a legitimate sumo routine that all sumo
wrestlers do before each match--as is the spread-leg foot stomp. After
WWII, when a Japanese wrestler had to be a heel or not work at all, the
promoters required them to do that for a number of reasons--1) to
emphasize that the wrestlers were Japanese (hence heels), and a way to
introduce the salt to the ring so that it could be thrown in the eyes of
the face to get the screw-job win.
Sean 'Bandwidth' Ryan
a couple of things in addition to that...
In article <910613195...@xuucp.ch.apollo.hp.com>, m...@APOLLO.COM writes...
>
>- What is "Lucha Libre" wrestling?
At least in the context as it applies to the wrestling, "Lucha" means
"wrestling" and "Libre" means "free-for-all." Can't really say if that
is their actual meaning. There was an article in the 1989 Observer
yearbook concerning Lucha that was relatively informative. I had it on
my account on acad3.alaska.edu for a long time, but unfortunately, I
downloaded and deleted it many weeks back. If I remember correctly,
wrestling in Mexico was much the same as in the U.S. up through the
1950's. After that, the acrobatic style was incorporated with the
introduction into the business of various wrestlers who had the skills
to do this sort of stuff.
> And when Muta is wrestling in Japan (not for the WCW, but
> for his regular federation), does he still spit the mist?
Keiji Muto did wrestle several matches last year as The Great Muta, with
the face paint and the whole U.S. gimmick. But I can't say if he spit
mist during any matches (I believe he did before these matches). Also,
Kabuki has worked in Japan with that gimmick since 1983. But most fans
are quite aware of not only his real-life persona, but his in-ring
existence in Japan before coming over here and doing that gimmick.
Another one to add to this list is Kendo Nagasaki. He has done that
gimmick on occasion in Japan, as well as being himself and doing a
commando-type gimmick, calling himself Rambo Sakurada (that being his
real last name).
***************************************************************
Sean Patrick Ryan Bitnet: FSSPR@ALASKA
Internet: fs...@acad2.alaska.edu On IRC: Aoxomoxoa
Snail: P.O. Box 240554, Anchorage, AK 99524-0554
"You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating
fruit loops on your front porch!" - ST
Sean 'Bandwidth' Ryan
>
> I have several hours of Lucha Libre wrestling in the mail to
> me. It's only through discussion with several hardcore fans
> that are off the net that I've put together my interpretation
> of the Lucha style. It's pretty silly really, since I'm a
> couple weeks away from actually seeing it.
> When it was described to me like this, I
> mentioned that the Young Pistols were doing some pretty crazy
> stuff at SuperBrawl (similar to what they did last night -
> especially Tracey) and was immediately told that the Pistols
> had gleaned that style from Lucha Libre.
> I'll have more to say in the near future I guess.
I have a single 6 hour tape of highlights from Mexico City from late
1987 and early 1988, as well as some Mexico City matches that were aired
on the World Pro Wrestling TV show in Japan and some Japanese matches
involving Blackman, El Canek, Dos Caras, Mil Mascaras and quite a few
others. I also watched the Arena Coliseo shows when they aired on
Univision, as well as the El Santo movies aired there, but the quality
of the wrestling presented in both of those wasn't nearly on a par with
what I have on tape. The tag matches are fast-paced action with a lot
of spots, but the singles matches (usually they only have singles
matches when either a title or someone's hair or mask is at stake) are a
lot slower paced with rest holds and mat work, with the spots and action
rising as the match goes on. Usually things don't pick up in singles
matches until the early or middle part of the 2nd fall. As far as the
Young Pissers, they did wrestle quite a bit in Mexico between stints in
the Continental promotion, back around 1986 or 87.
> Jushin Riger is apparently planning to go to Mexico to learn a
> bit of the Lucha style (and search for opponents of his caliber
> no doubt).
I remember that Riger has spent some time in Mexico before, but not a
whole lot of time there. Also, Satoru Sayama wrestled there for quite a
while before he became the original Tiger Mask, in order to attain some
Lucha skills, which were quite helpful in establishing his legend.
> There are several different styles among all the different
> federations running shows in Japan. The UWF (now folded and
> replaced with other promotions) promoted a shooting style,
> where everything was believed to be legitimate and pro-wrestling
> moves could actually get you disqualified. This was the hottest
> promotion in the world in 1989-1990.
The original inception of the UWF in 1984 and 1985 was also very hot,
but that was mainly due to the legend of Sayama, as Akira Maeda hadn't
established his legend yet at that point. Basically, the promotion
went under after a match between Sayama and Maeda. According to most
accounts, the match turned into a shoot, and the end result had Sayama
leaving the promotion after the match. They stopped promoting about a
week after that, and all of the wrestlers with the exception of Sayama
re-joined New Japan. Recently, Maeda drew a sellout to Korakuen Hall
simply to hear him talk about his future. He announced that he was
starting a new promotion, that according to him will be totally legit.
This contention has been pooh-poohed by most. I believe the name of it
will be called RINGS or something like that.
> They have one promotion that just does gimmick matches,
Herb is talking about the FMW. There was a promotion in Japan many
years ago called the IWE (International Wrestling Enterprise), which was
run by promoter Isao Yoshihara and wrestler Rusher Kimura. They had
also relied heavily on gimmick matches. That, plus the poor foreign (uh
oh, there's the 'f' word again) talent they used, caused the promotion
to close shop in 1981. Another thing which led to their downfall was
the end of their relationship with the AWA. The IWE was the AWA's
affiliate in Japan, but the AWA changed their affiliation in 1979 or
1980 to All Japan. After they shut down, most of the key wrestlers went
to New Japan. New Japan promoter Hisashi Shinma came up with the idea
of feuding the two factions, which led to huge gates over the next year
before Antonio Inoki beat Kimura decisively and ended that feud.
> chair matches, etc. (In a chair match, both men enter the ring
> armed with a chair and can use it in any way ;-)).
Anyone remember a match in Montreal in 1973 between Killer Kowalski and
Eddie Morrow (brother or son, depending on who you believe, of Calgary
mainstay Jerry Morrow)? It was a rounds match, and alternating rounds
consisted of wrestling and chair-bashing. I've been told numerous
accounts of this match, and just got to thinking about it again
yesterday.
> Riger's gimmick is that he is a combination of a
> Lion and a Tiger (hence his americanized name should be Liger,
> but I can't be bothered to change my spelling of it now)
Hmmm. My understanding on his name is that it is Riger, but Liger is
the way that the Japanese would pronounce it.
> Guys like Ricky Steamboat or Ric Flair have some trouble
> working in Japan because they do so many spots that get heat in
> America but don't get heat in Japan.
But at least with All Japan, Steamboat was used a lot, and was also used
as a face, in other words, since the usual face/heel thing is quite
different over there, was portrayed as a friend of the Japanese
wrestlers and teamed with them. Much of this has to do with the fact
that Steamboat's mother is a war bride.
Herb Kunze
>
> [Some discussion of Mexican videos and Lucha style wrestling.]
What I've been trying to get are some matches with Yoshihiro Asai.
I've heard mention that he rivals Jushin Riger as far as excitement
value from his work. Moonsaults to the ringside floor and that kind
of stuff, dontcha know. I may have some stuff with him finally
coming my way.
> [Some discussion of the UWF.]
> I believe the name of it
> will be called RINGS or something like that.
I've only seen a couple of UWF matches. It's rather strange for
someone into the pro-style of wrestling to watch. The one I remember
had Bob Backlund taking on Masaharu Funaki (Backlund did two UWF
matches, both against Funaki). Funaki was DQ'ed for doing a
dropkick.
I just received a video of Akira Maeda's "Rings" promotion debut card.
It's at my permanant home and I'll get to watch it on the weekend.
I believe the headline event is Maeda vs. Dirk Vrij, a kickboxer of
some fame from Holland. Apparently, some 11000 fans showed up for
the card only to see a somewhat out-of-shape Maeda get the stuffing
knocked out of him by Vrij for the entire match. Vrij was in better
shape, stronger, faster, the whole shebang. Then, because of the
superiority of wrestling skills over all other fighting skills,
Maeda managed to slap on a leg-lock and get a submission. The
crowd went wild. As you can tell, it was described to me on the
phone with some amazement. I'm looking forward to watching it.
> > They have one promotion that just does gimmick matches,
>
> Herb is talking about the FMW.
That's the name. This is Onita's organization, right? He got a
lot of negative heat from the fans for trying to bring Jose
Gonsalez in from WWC to feud with him, working the angle in
a parallel to the way that Gonsalez killed Bruiser Brody in cold
blood.
> > Riger's gimmick is that he is a combination of a
> > Lion and a Tiger (hence his americanized name should be Liger,
> > but I can't be bothered to change my spelling of it now)
>
> Hmmm. My understanding on his name is that it is Riger, but Liger is
> the way that the Japanese would pronounce it.
Really? They definitely say Riger (pronounced "Ryyyyyye--Garrrrrr!!!)
when announcing his matches. I thought that there was no difference
between "L" and "R" in the Japanese language and that they use "R"
all the time. But, understanding the derivation of his name leads
Americans to call him Jushin Liger. It doesn't matter, 'cause
when I watch the guy I sit there and yell "Ryyyye-Garrrr!" with
the commentators throughout the match, meaning that I'll never
change my pronounciation anyhow.
> > Guys like Ricky Steamboat or Ric Flair have some trouble
> > working in Japan because they do so many spots that get heat in
> > America but don't get heat in Japan.
>
> But at least with All Japan, Steamboat was used a lot, and was also used
> as a face, in other words, since the usual face/heel thing is quite
> different over there, was portrayed as a friend of the Japanese
> wrestlers and teamed with them. Much of this has to do with the fact
> that Steamboat's mother is a war bride.
I saw one match between Ricky Steamboat and Mitsuhara Misawa (Tiger Mask)
from the time frame when Ricky was NWA champion. The match was great
but the crowd was dead silent. Ricky was selling things like an
American would (and doing a great job of it), but the fans weren't
buying it. It was weird to watch a match that is better than most
anything on any US PPV and not hear a crowd reaction.
Herb...
Sean P. Ryan, Hardcore Alaskan
>
>"Luche Libra" is the Spanish term for wrestling. Each country tends to
>have its own wrestling style. The Mexican style is sometimes referred to
>as the luca libre style because of that.
Really, that statement does seem somewhat outdated. With the exception
of Mexico and Japan, the entire civilized world has rejected any notion
that any style other than what the WWF offers ever existed. Just take a
look around you. Even WCW has had a hard time drawing 1,000 people to a
card lately. The first episode of the Jim Ross radio show, aired from
WCW's hometown, was filled with people wanting to talk about the WWF.
They have the world by its gonads right now, and it is a good thing that
strongholds of "anti-WWF" (for lack of a better term) still do exist on
this earth. Even this group is filled with WWF-praise, although I tend
to feel that most of it consists of people who look at WCW as a joke
(for which I can't blame them), but know of no other alternatives.
***************************************************************
Sean Patrick Ryan Bitnet: FSSPR@ALASKA
Internet: fs...@acad3.alaska.edu On IRC: RadioKAOS
Snail: P.O. Box 240554, Anchorage, AK 99524-0554
"And James here, he made a hundred dollar vow of faith. And he
vowed that that hundred dollars would turn into three thousand
through his gambling, and it came to pass. Praise Satan,
hallelujah!" - the sinner's Robert Tilton
Robert E. Hodge
> The first episode of the Jim Ross radio show, aired from
>WCW's hometown, was filled with people wanting to talk about the WWF.
Do you get this show all the way up there in Alaska, or are you telling us
what you've heard? Not that I doubt you, but if you can get it, maybe I should
give it a shot here in N.E. Ohio!
--
++++ Bob Hodge ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ "The art of living is more like wrestling than dancing." +
+ - Marcus Aurelius (121 - 180 a.d.) +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Robert E. Hodge
Is it just me, or does the recent video tape footage of the desparados from
some Old West-style town make other NWA/WCW fans sad?
I've criticized the WWF for clowning around with wrestling for the past few
years, but I think I've never seen even Vinnie sink to such depths! At least
most of his garbage is well-scripted and rehearsed! Through most of this
Desparados crap, my mouth has been hanging open in amazement at the lameness!
One bright note: anyone notice that Dead-Eye's eyepatch keeps switching
eyes? (Did someone say that he used to be MoonDog Rex? He looks bigger than
I remember Rex to be!)
Bruce Onder
>Is it just me, or does the recent video tape footage of the desparados from
>some Old West-style town make other NWA/WCW fans sad?
Quite sad. Why couldn't they just keep playing that "Who are the
Desperadoes?" video? The one with the blowing dust and the vague
shapes on horseback? Sigh.
>I've criticized the WWF for clowning around with wrestling for the past few
>years, but I think I've never seen even Vinnie sink to such depths! At least
>most of his garbage is well-scripted and rehearsed! Through most of this
>Desparados crap, my mouth has been hanging open in amazement at the lameness!
Things are getting truly bad. B. A. D. I might have to stop
watching all wrestling altogether. What ever happened to real
*angles*?
>One bright note: anyone notice that Dead-Eye's eyepatch keeps switching
>eyes? (Did someone say that he used to be MoonDog Rex? He looks bigger than
>I remember Rex to be!)
Sigh. Continuity...
Bruce
--
Bruce W. Onder on...@isi.edu
(He's not your everyday-type prankster!)
I'm Ice-T: Original Gangster
(O.G.: Original Gangster)
Joe Lempkowski
In article <1991Jun25.1...@icd.ab.com> r...@odin.icd.ab.com (Robert E. Hodge) writes:
>
> Is it just me, or does the recent video tape footage of the desparados from
> some Old West-style town make other NWA/WCW fans sad?
>
This is the most idiotic thing I have seen, since the Sheepherders and Dusty
Rhodes joined the WWF. I guess they are trying to reach the kids, but now
I know why they have the fast-forward switch on the VCR remote control.
Scott Hall
Oops, I meant,
Joe Lempkowski
Sean P. Ryan, Hardcore Alaskan
>
> What I've been trying to get are some matches with Yoshihiro Asai.
> I've heard mention that he rivals Jushin Riger as far as excitement
> value from his work. Moonsaults to the ringside floor and that kind
> of stuff, dontcha know. I may have some stuff with him finally
> coming my way.
As of the last Mexican video I've really had the opportunity to see
(spring of 1988), the hot guy was Atlantis. I couldn't say what his
status is today. That one tape I mentioned earlier, I got from Dave
Meltzer, who in turn got it from Steve Mastropietro (the guy who had the
two matches with Brian Tramel). Anyway, there was a 6-man tag in there
featuring Atlantis which was totally hot. It was Pirata Morgan & El
Verdugo & Hombre Bala vs. Atlantis & La Azteca & Ringo Mendoza, and took
place either in March or April of 1988. The crowds in Mexico City
usually are dead silent for even the best matches, because they see just
about everything that can ever be done in pro wrestling on a weekly
basis. But in this match, the crowd was going wild over every move
Atlantis made. The heat was simply incredible, even by the standards of
other promotions. Anyhow, I do have this tape here with me, so I can
provide more detail if anyone is interested.
> I've only seen a couple of UWF matches.
I've seen a ton of tape of the "1st UWF," as Hitoshi Oi called it, but
I've only seen 1 match from the "2nd UWF." It was the main event from
the 1st card, in May of 1988, and pitted Akira Maeda vs. Kazuo Yamazaki.
When I was watching this for the first time, my roommate, who detested
pro wrestling (no, I'm not talking about you, Eric. I'm talking about
the other putz I got stuck with for a roommate.), was quite impressed at
what he saw. Japan tends to do that to some people.
>> > They have one promotion that just does gimmick matches,
>>
>> Herb is talking about the FMW.
>
> That's the name. This is Onita's organization, right? He got a
> lot of negative heat from the fans for trying to bring Jose
> Gonsalez in from WWC to feud with him, working the angle in
> a parallel to the way that Gonsalez killed Bruiser Brody in cold
> blood.
Yeah. I haven't heard all of what has been said in regards to that
incident, but what I did hear was filled with the usual shock, disgust,
anger and the like. The best assessment of the situation I heard was
summed up like this. Gonzales knew that he got away scot free, and
therefore had no problems announcing to the world that he killed Brody
by virtue of taking part in this angle with Onita.
When you ask around for more tapes of Japan, be sure to ask for the tape
of the 5/6 FMW card in Osaka. If they didn't air it in a regular
fashion, the match in question was featured on a non-wrestling show and
should be available on tape. Basically, it was Onita vs. Mr. Pogo and
featured the gimmick of barbed wire and *LANDMINES*. Four landmines
were set up on each side of the ring, under sheets of plywood, and all
four were set off in the course of the match. This was described in
Chris Zavisa's recent column in the Torch. It is way too long to
reprint here, and a description probably wouldn't do it justice anyway.
Chris says that Japanese Wrestling Journal (an English-language sheet of
Japanese news and results...unfortunately, it's not available to the
public due to the fluctuation of the exchange rate...it's a fantastic
read, though) reported the fan reaction as being total shock that
something this sick could be set loose upon the ticket-buying public.
Onita and Pogo looked like shit by the time the bout was over, and
Victor Quinones (Pogo's manager) went into a mine as well.
> I saw one match between Ricky Steamboat and Mitsuhara Misawa (Tiger Mask)
> from the time frame when Ricky was NWA champion. The match was great
> but the crowd was dead silent. Ricky was selling things like an
> American would (and doing a great job of it), but the fans weren't
> buying it. It was weird to watch a match that is better than most
> anything on any US PPV and not hear a crowd reaction.
> Herb...
Okay, I was thinking more in terms of the early 80's, when Steamboat was
a regular for All Japan, and was on the Japanese side. Two matches from
All Japan that stick out in my mind here. One was from July of 1981,
and pitted Steamboat vs. Mil Mascaras in a 2 of 3 match. The first
2 falls were split, and it was fairly scientific. Then they started to
fight in the 3rd fall, and ended up in a double countout fighting on the
floor. Soon after, Gino Hernandez and Gypsy Joe showed up and started
fighting with both Steamboat and Mascaras. An improptu match resulted
from this, and Steamboat and Mascaras beat Hernandez and Joe in
something like 2 1/2 minutes. The other match of note took place
6/4/82, and featured Steamboat challenging Ric Flair for the NWA title.
I don't recall much about this match, other than it going something like
30 minutes. I believe the only other American Flair faced in Japan
during his first title reign was Bruiser Brody, and that was due to
Brody holding the International title (the top singles title in All
Japan). Back to Steamboat, he was on the Japanese side during most of
the early 80's, due to his being half-Japanese. I recall that he was
teamed with Genichiro Tenryu in the fall tag team tournament in 1981 as
well. But, he made a tour as an emergency replacement after David Von
Erich died (and was "retired" in the U.S. - really was just getting his
gym going, plus holding out to try to see if it could get him the NWA
title), and after that was "just another American" in his bookings.
***************************************************************
Sean Patrick Ryan Bitnet: FSSPR@ALASKA
Internet: fs...@acad3.alaska.edu On IRC: RadioKAOS
Snail: P.O. Box 240554, Anchorage, AK 99524-0554
"And James here, he made a hundred dollar vow of faith. And he
John Michael James
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