Attitude is everything (was Re: [ECW] 11/19 report)
Paul D. Herzog
> Dominic Macika (be...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
> : Whoa, cmon guys. I mean, I know this NWA vs. ECW situation is drawing
> : a huge dividing line down the middle of the newsgroup, but are these
> : potshots really necessary? I mean, I flamed the heck out of Larryoid
> : on irc for taking potshots at the ECW crowd, I see no reason for everyone
> : to be taking this dang thing so serious and wasting bandwidth.
>
> Dom, I couldn't agree with you more. After last night, I was about to come on
> here and post my final note, stating that I will no longer be contibuting
> anything to this group-- be it news or my opinions. I report the results and an
> estimated attendance number for a wrestling show and I get attacked for it.
I'm sorry to hear this, Dave, and I hope you'll reconsider.
And now, to the main point, and this probably should be taken to E-mail, but
there are far too many people involved to try and figure out who to send it to.
I think the ECW regulars are getting WAY too involved with their ECW attitude.
And these are some of the very same that have posted in the past about how they
hate all the flame wars and all the negativity that has taken over r.s.p-w. So
what do they do next? They follow up with a bunch of posts slamming Prazak
about his quoted attendance figures and to insult the NWA product when none of
them were there. Was it as good? Probably not. Were any of the people doing
the insulting there? Hell, no! Unless any of you were there, shut your fucking
hole, man, cause that's bullshit. One guy even had the audacity to call Dave
a straight-up liar, then mumble a quick "I'm sorry" when it turns out he had the
wrong date in question.
I've always believed that if you're the best at something, you don't need to go
repeating it to everyone over and over, just let it speak for themselves. This
obviously isn't the Philly way. An example, I see nothing but the highest
praises for the Bad Breed, sounds like they're the next coming of Brody. Now,
I've seen them on TV with ECW, including the BrawlGame with Public Enemy, and
guess what? I was hardly impressed. Maybe I had to be there. Maybe this says
something about the shitty production quality of ECW TV (and this is one area of
the business about which Tod Gordon obviously knows NOTHING). But more and more
I find myself looking forward to the convention, not only to see some of the
Gods in person (Sabu & Benoit, especially), but to see if the attitude coming
from all of the ECW posters on the net is for real, or just some kind of work to
stir things up.
<soapbox mode *OFF*>
--- Zog
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Paul D. Herzog | "You know what they call a Quarter Pounder
Alcatel Network Systems, Inc. | in France? Royale with cheese."
Dallas, Texas | "What do they call a Whopper?"
I-net: pdhe...@aud.alcatel.com | "Dunno. I didn't go into Burger King."
Work: (214) 996-2624 | --- Vincent & Jules
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Craig
: And now, to the main point, and this probably should be taken to E-mail, but
yes!
: there are far too many people involved to try and figure out who to send it to.
: I think the ECW regulars are getting WAY too involved with their ECW attitude.
I could really add fuel to the fire here and get this flame war hot, but
. . . one last try. I am asking you nicely not to label ECW attitude. I
am an ECW fan. I like the style, the chaos, etc. I do not like flame
wars. They personally attack people and not the problem. If someone is
posting something that is out of line, let's try to talk calmly about the
problem/opinions. Let's not attack the person.
You came very close here to getting me hot. You might not get a kind
request from others. If you feel you are wrong do not be afraid to admit
it.
Peace,
CrazyZ
MadDogJMF
pdhe...@hooter.aud.alcatel.com (Paul D. Herzog) writes:
"I think the ECW regulars are getting WAY too involved with their ECW
attitude.
And these are some of the very same that have posted in the past about how
they
hate all the flame wars and all the negativity that has taken over
r.s.p-w. So
what do they do next? They follow up with a bunch of posts slamming
Prazak
about his quoted attendance figures and to insult the NWA product when
none of
them were there. Was it as good? Probably not. Were any of the people
doing
the insulting there? Hell, no! Unless any of you were there, shut your
fucking
hole, man, cause that's bullshit. One guy even had the audacity to call
Dave
a straight-up liar, then mumble a quick "I'm sorry" when it turns out he
had the
wrong date in question."
'Zog,
This whole thing wouldn't have gotton out of hand if Dave hadn't had run
his mouth from one end of the world to the other bashing the hell out of
the ECW for the past month.
I run the Wrestling Board on AOL and I've had to put up with constant
bashing from Mr. Prazak for the past two months on the subject. The
majority of the time comes at our wrestling cons when he goes off on a
tangent attacking the ECW over and over and over until it just gets silly.
Others can attest that he's done the same thing over and over for the
past two months at other locations.
In the past two months he's passed out bogus information about ECW shows
(I've lost count of how many of them but it's been quite a bit),
"guarenteing" them to be true and when they don't come true he ignores
them, and I, for one, have learned to take anything he says with a large
grain of salt. That's why I have a problem with his report of the
attendance figures -- he's been wrong so many times in the past that his
report doesn't make sense (the attendance would be at least a 300%
increase in the crowds of the cards in the area the previous nights).
A lot of us were fed up with his constant attacks on the ECW but stayed
quiet and just waited until the "guarenteed" results of the shows on the
19th came in. That's when he's turned his attitude around and is taking
this "why are you picking on me?" "let's all get along" and "I may be
leaving RSPW because of this" stance. He was wrong, after two months of
constant attacking -- he was wrong and now we're giving him back what he's
shelled out for the past two months.
If that's being a person with "attitude" then so be it, but I, for one,
hope the NWA -- Crockett branch -- does well. I had hoped the Caraluzzo
branch did well until Mr. Prazak turned their branching to the Philly area
into an all out attack on the ECW. I like the ECW, it has its problems,
but I like the ECW and I'm not going to be dumped on for liking the it
anymore . . .
MADDOGJMF
Paul R. Perdeus
: > here and post my final note, stating that I will no longer be contibuting
: > anything to this group-- be it news or my opinions. I report the results and an
: I'm sorry to hear this, Dave, and I hope you'll reconsider.
No comment! ;-)
: I think the ECW regulars are getting WAY too involved with their ECW attitude.
: And these are some of the very same that have posted in the past about how they
: hate all the flame wars and all the negativity that has taken over r.s.p-w. So
: what do they do next? They follow up with a bunch of posts slamming Prazak
: about his quoted attendance figures and to insult the NWA product when none of
Paul,
Being one of the 'less-vocal' ECW regulars, I thought I should
jump in here, since this is so out of control. I don't think that people
slammed him for his attendance figures. Any 'slamming' that was done was
due to the culmination of the recent NWA kicking ECW out of Philly posts
by him. The ECW fans took the packed house at the Arena and several "the
convention in New Jersey sucked" stories as a major victory and thus
wanted to turn the tables on the most vocal supporter of the NWA side on
RSPW. You make it sound like the ECW fans are just trying to be
'hostile' and randomly slam Dave for a single post about attendance.
: I've always believed that if you're the best at something, you don't need to go
: repeating it to everyone over and over, just let it speak for themselves. This
: obviously isn't the Philly way.
I think that ECW could go up against any other group in the **WORLD** and
come out shining like gold. The reason that ECW fans are so .....'vocal'
is very difficult to explain. There is a definite comradery at the
Arena. The fans at the Arena could be considered the best in the world
and they love the promotion intensely. You can see from the reports of
RSPW'ers who have attended the shows that meeting fellow fans was a major
highlight, if not THE highlight of the night, because everyone hit it off
really well. Up until this point, I think that it has been %100 in that
direction. You can see it in the posts and on IRC. The workers in the group
bust their asses to please the fans and keep up the 'relationship'. The
president (Gordon, not Clinton!) also has a great relationship with the
fans and once you meet him and a few of the guys, there is a sort of
comradery between all parties involved at that point. When people who
have seen very little or no ECW start to 'attack' (and an attack can have
many interpretations to many people) there is a knee-jerk reaction and
you have 'hostility'. When the people involved have histories of being
[I was going to say ASSHOLES, but I won't] not-nice-people, it only makes
things worse. If someone new posted something about seeing ECW and not
really liking it at all and tells why, I would bet $1000000 that none of
the ECW fans here would jump on them and react with hostility. Yes, they
may say that the person should give it another chance or recommend
something else to watch before giving up all together, but I would bet
that that would be the extent of it. When people who are already
disliked for various reasons post stuff that is full of snide remarks and
cuts and down-the-nose attitude, well....it just makes for an ugly
experience.
[stuff about seeing Bad Breed accidentally deleted]
: guess what? I was hardly impressed. Maybe I had to be there. Maybe this says
: something about the shitty production quality of ECW TV (and this is one area of
: the business about which Tod Gordon obviously knows NOTHING).
This is a perfect example. The way you phrased it and the fact that you
have actually seen the product makes your remark above (that I cut part
of out accidentally) fine. I seriously doubt if I'll see any "FUck you
man! They rule! You're an asshole if you don't like the Breed!" posts.
: But more and more
: I find myself looking forward to the convention, not only to see some of the
: Gods in person (Sabu & Benoit, especially), but to see if the attitude coming
: from all of the ECW posters on the net is for real, or just some kind of work to
: stir things up.
I am also looking forward to the convention immensly. As great as the
show will be (and I can safely say this without even knowing the lineup),
I still look forward to meeting a lot of you even more. I also can't
wait to see what the reaction is to ECW from a lot of you who have been
watching this post-a-thon from afar. Maybe it will be easier to
understand once it is experienced live. I know there is a big downside
to hype and how the product sometimes fails to meet big hyped up
expectations, but I still think that it will win a great percentage of
people over once it is experienced. One final note on ECW fans and their
defensivness of the organization....even though it's the most talked
about group in the wrestling circles of the world, it is still somehow
not given the recongnition and respect that it truly deserves IOODO (In
Our Own Damn Opinion), and that is another reason for the pride factor
and defensiveness of the product.
end of sermon,
Paul
--
"Aren't you funny. If you have nothing constructive to add, shut your
pompous mouth you spoiled Long Island punk."
-- Diamond Dave Scherer
Jesse Money
Paul R. Perdeus <ant...@telerama.lm.com> wrote:
>
>The ECW fans took the packed house at the Arena and several "the
>convention in New Jersey sucked" stories as a major victory and thus
>wanted to turn the tables on the most vocal supporter of the NWA side on
>RSPW.
Why did an ECW v. NWA schism have to form? More importantly, why do
people have to "turn the tables" on NWA supporters? All of this
"nyah, nyah, I told you so" junk is incredibly childish. Dave Barry,
at least in part, is apparently right.
>You make it sound like the ECW fans are just trying to be
>'hostile' and randomly slam Dave for a single post about attendance.
For the readers of RSPW who do not frequent IRC or the infamous AOL
chat room (or whatever it is), this is what we see. I haven't seen a
Prazak (or any other) RSPW post saying that the NWA is going to run ECW out
of Philadelphia. Even if he did, though, it was his opinion, and he
has the right to it. If you disagree with it and MUST discuss it, do
it over email. Public flaming like we've seen lately is useless and
asinine.
>I think that ECW could go up against any other group in the **WORLD** and
>come out shining like gold. The reason that ECW fans are so .....'vocal'
>is very difficult to explain. There is a definite comradery at the
>Arena. The fans at the Arena could be considered the best in the world
>and they love the promotion intensely.
And other people believe that fans who hand wrestlers frying pans are
truly barbaric individuals who would have bought front row tickets to
Christians/Lions "exhibitions" in Rome. They also wonder how much the
promoter really cares about the wrestlers he uses if he ALLOWS fans to
hand wrestlers beer bottles, boat oars, frying pans, ... to be used on
his employees. Which group is right? They both are. They're only
opinions, after all.
>One final note on ECW fans and their
>defensiveness of the organization....even though it's the most talked
>about group in the wrestling circles of the world, it is still somehow
>not given the recongnition and respect that it truly deserves IOODO (In
>Our Own Damn Opinion), and that is another reason for the pride factor
>and defensiveness of the product.
ECW is not going to get the respect and recognition of an All Japan,
for example, until they prove that they are more than a regional
promotion. Gordon is respected for giving his fans what they want in
the same manner that Cornette is.
Jesse
Paul D. Herzog
> Being one of the 'less-vocal' ECW regulars, I thought I should
> jump in here, since this is so out of control. I don't think that people
> slammed him for his attendance figures. Any 'slamming' that was done was
> due to the culmination of the recent NWA kicking ECW out of Philly posts
> by him. The ECW fans took the packed house at the Arena and several "the
> convention in New Jersey sucked" stories as a major victory and thus
> wanted to turn the tables on the most vocal supporter of the NWA side on
> RSPW. You make it sound like the ECW fans are just trying to be
> 'hostile' and randomly slam Dave for a single post about attendance.
And like MadDogJMF mentioned, most of this has occurred in the IRC chat areas
and AOL, neither of which I frequent. So, unfortunately, all I see is the
result. Part of the reason I wrote what I did is because I knew everyone would
respond with their side.
> : I've always believed that if you're the best at something, you don't need to go
> : repeating it to everyone over and over, just let it speak for themselves. This
> : obviously isn't the Philly way.
>
> I think that ECW could go up against any other group in the **WORLD** and
> come out shining like gold. The reason that ECW fans are so .....'vocal'
> is very difficult to explain. There is a definite comradery at the
Well, first of all, if you wish to include the world, AAA and All-Japan kick
ECW's ass in all regards of the business (I guess that's why I put ECW 3rd in
Herb's poll for "Best Promotion", eh?), and I think most people will agree
on that. Both of their fans are as rabid as the ECW gang, they have both
drawn houses that Tod Gordon can only have wet dreams about, and their talent
base from top to bottom is at a bit higher level. All-Japan really doesn't
have angles, I guess, but Antonio Pena runs the best angles ever. Lessee...
what would I rather have: another Singapore cane or Hijo del Santo & Eddy
Guerrero fighting for their the honor of their fathers?
And I think it's pretty obvious why the ECW fans are so supportive of their
beloved organization. So much of it has been promoted by Tod as being "us
against them". It's always been that way, even when Eddie Gilbert was the
King of Philadelphia and Ivan Koloff & Don Muraco were hanging around. It's
a style different than anywhere else (except W*ING?). Shane Douglas comes out
in public and challenges Flair to an hour-long shoot? Chad Austin getting
destroyed for saying he liked working for SMW better? Anywhere else in the
world, I think these angles would go down like the Hindenburg. But in ECW,
the fans thrive on it.
Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Hell, I wish I could have that much pride
in my local wrestling group (I hope someday I will). But the more ECW fans I
see on the net, and the more vocal these guys become about "we're the best, fuck
you" (yes, I know nobody has said that directly, but that's the attitude I was
talking about earlier, and if the ECW hard-cores think they don't have it, well,
I guess our impressions differ), the more I can understand why Herb had a bad
taste in his mouth from SMW Fan Week.
Paul D. Herzog
D.E. Prazak
: This whole thing wouldn't have gotton out of hand if Dave hadn't had run
: his mouth from one end of the world to the other bashing the hell out of
: the ECW for the past month.
For the past month, eh? Show me my posts and/or chat logs backing this up. If
"bashing" is considered any negative comment about ECW or my *OPINION* of
their product, then I guess I've "bashed." But the "bashing" back by ECW fans
has been several times as much as I or anyone else dished out. One "They're
always brawling, and it's getting repetitive," to sixteen "Coralosers."
: I run the Wrestling Board on AOL and I've had to put up with constant
: bashing from Mr. Prazak for the past two months on the subject. The
: majority of the time comes at our wrestling cons when he goes off on a
: tangent attacking the ECW over and over and over until it just gets silly.
: Others can attest that he's done the same thing over and over for the
: past two months at other locations.
Anyone interested, ask Mr. Finch to forward you chat logs of my "tirades." God
damn... if having a differing opinion is illegal... at least I never resorted
to name calling, or profanity...
: In the past two months he's passed out bogus information about ECW shows
: (I've lost count of how many of them but it's been quite a bit),
: "guarenteing" them to be true and when they don't come true he ignores
: them, and I, for one, have learned to take anything he says with a large
: grain of salt. That's why I have a problem with his report of the
: attendance figures -- he's been wrong so many times in the past that his
: report doesn't make sense (the attendance would be at least a 300%
: increase in the crowds of the cards in the area the previous nights).
300%? Is it my fault that NWA did 25 one night and 600 the next?
Nope.чЈwдv3тнычі
: A lot of us were fed up with his constant attacks on the ECW but stayed
: quiet and just waited until the "guarenteed" results of the shows on the
: 19th came in. That's when he's turned his attitude around and is taking
: this "why are you picking on me?" "let's all get along" and "I may be
: leaving RSPW because of this" stance. He was wrong, after two months of
: constant attacking -- he was wrong and now we're giving him back what he's
: shelled out for the past two months.
I was wrong? If I'm not mistaken, I publicly posted over two months ago that
on 11/19, ECW would do their usual "sell out," and NWA would do 600. NWA did
700. Why would I be backing down now?
: If that's being a person with "attitude" then so be it, but I, for one,
: hope the NWA -- Crockett branch -- does well. I had hoped the Caraluzzo
: branch did well until Mr. Prazak turned their branching to the Philly area
: into an all out attack on the ECW. I like the ECW, it has its problems,
: but I like the ECW and I'm not going to be dumped on for liking the it
: anymore . . .
That's just plain bullshit. I criticized ECW's almost "all brawling" strategy
and said that the more basic wrestling would appeal to a wider audience, and
that's an "all out attack on the ECW." My gosh...
Oh, and MadDog, wake up. I've received a ton of E-mail over the past three
days, a great deal of it from the ECW fans here on the Net, agreeing with me
that this back and forth crap is pointless, and we've basically decided to end
this thing. Tom Misnik even wished me a Happy Thanksgiving at the end of his
E-mail. Look around. You're the only one keeping this thing going, and I'm
going to end my contibution to this now...
dp
--
Dave Prazak - Post Office Box 4005 - Lisle, IL - 60532 * dp4...@ripco.com
_ __ _ __ / _ __ _ __ / _ __ _ __ /
' ) ) ' ) / / ) / ' ) ) ' ) / / ) / ' ) ) ' ) / / ) /
/ / / / / /--/ ' / / / / / /--/ ' / / / / / /--/ '
/ (_ (_(_/ / ( o / (_ (_(_/ / ( o / (_ (_(_/ / ( o
Pete Barlow
nothing to do with my temper, either. ('Course, flying neither league's banner
would have something to do with that.)
In article <Czqt4...@rci.ripco.com>, dp4...@ripco.com (D.E. Prazak) writes:
> MadDogJMF (madd...@aol.com) wrote:
> : This whole thing wouldn't have gotton out of hand if Dave hadn't had run
> : his mouth from one end of the world to the other bashing the hell out of
> : the ECW for the past month.
> For the past month, eh? Show me my posts and/or chat logs backing this up. If
> "bashing" is considered any negative comment about ECW or my *OPINION* of
> their product, then I guess I've "bashed." But the "bashing" back by ECW fans
> has been several times as much as I or anyone else dished out. One "They're
> always brawling, and it's getting repetitive," to sixteen "Coralosers."
Not to bash the ECWMutants, but Mr. Prazak has a point here. First it was
Herb, then Evan, now Dave. There is a continual, repetitive cycle here.
Whoever says anything "bad" about an ECW show gets flamed to at least a minor
degree by the acknowledged ECW show regulars. And it has to stop. Look,
somebody out there is gonna disagree with the product, its intentions, what
have you. That's fine. Let it go. Don't let the other guy ruin your utopia.
Live and let live. And I know that sounds hopelessly idealistic, yes, but
think about it... whoever said that the same people campaigning against all the
wasted bandwidth are the same ones creating it are right. Incidentally, these
are the same people that subscribed to the info-only mailing list. (which as
luck would have it is currently down for the holiday so Pete can do some work
on it). You figure it out.
> : I run the Wrestling Board on AOL and I've had to put up with constant
> : bashing from Mr. Prazak for the past two months on the subject. The
> : majority of the time comes at our wrestling cons when he goes off on a
> : tangent attacking the ECW over and over and over until it just gets silly.
> : Others can attest that he's done the same thing over and over for the
> : past two months at other locations.
>
> Anyone interested, ask Mr. Finch to forward you chat logs of my "tirades." God
> damn... if having a differing opinion is illegal... at least I never resorted
> to name calling, or profanity...
Until now. I honestly can't think of a Catholic who'd appreciate the Goddamn
comment. And no, maybe you haven't resorted to name calling or profanity, but
changing your nickname to ECWsux and then logging off is hardly what one would
call "mature" either. Think about it; who do you think is farther along the
maturity scale, you or them? It just might have been you, but with that stunt,
you brought yourself right back down to everybody else's level.
> : In the past two months he's passed out bogus information about ECW shows
> : (I've lost count of how many of them but it's been quite a bit),
> : "guarenteing" them to be true and when they don't come true he ignores
> : them, and I, for one, have learned to take anything he says with a large
> : grain of salt. That's why I have a problem with his report of the
> : attendance figures -- he's been wrong so many times in the past that his
> : report doesn't make sense (the attendance would be at least a 300%
> : increase in the crowds of the cards in the area the previous nights).
> 300%? Is it my fault that NWA did 25 one night and 600 the next?
> Nope.
And I think with just the one question there that Mr. Prazak makes an
all-too-valid point. Wrestling crowds are not predictable. Which show was it
by the WCW that they gave out 5,000 freebies, and then promptly turned away
some people? Predictable? Not at all.
> : If that's being a person with "attitude" then so be it, but I, for one,
> : hope the NWA -- Crockett branch -- does well. I had hoped the Caraluzzo
> : branch did well until Mr. Prazak turned their branching to the Philly area
> : into an all out attack on the ECW. I like the ECW, it has its problems,
> : but I like the ECW and I'm not going to be dumped on for liking the it
> : anymore . . .
Splitting this pargraph and Prazak's response to say this: even if the guy on
top is a slimeball, it's immaterial. Without the independents, neither of the
big two can survive, and both Vince and Bischoff know that. Anywhere an indie
can do well, more power to it. If Dennis can get his thing up and running, I
wish him all the best. I just hope he does it as honestly as the business
allows him to.
> That's just plain bullshit. I criticized ECW's almost "all brawling" strategy
> and said that the more basic wrestling would appeal to a wider audience, and
> that's an "all out attack on the ECW."
Problem with statement: more basic wrestling will not appeal to a wider
audience. Not in North America. It will in Japan, but not here. North
American demand a certain colour and flair (no pun intended) with their
wrestling, mostly because Vince and Hogan have made them believe so. Fifteen
years ago, Prazak's statement would have held true. Today, it doesn't. The
youth don't want technical skills, they want creativity. Why do you think
Doink is so far over? Three good reasons... Dink, Wink, and Pink.
> Oh, and MadDog, wake up. I've received a ton of E-mail over the past three
> days, a great deal of it from the ECW fans here on the Net, agreeing with me
> that this back and forth crap is pointless, and we've basically decided to end
> this thing. Tom Misnik even wished me a Happy Thanksgiving at the end of his
> E-mail. Look around. You're the only one keeping this thing going, and I'm
> going to end my contibution to this now...
We are, basically, a nice bunch. The flame wars generally end after two, maybe
three rounds of back and forths, and then we're personable again. And I bear
no one a grudge.
> _ __ _ __ / _ __ _ __ / _ __ _ __ /
> ' ) ) ' ) / / ) / ' ) ) ' ) / / ) / ' ) ) ' ) / / ) /
> / / / / / /--/ ' / / / / / /--/ ' / / / / / /--/ '
> / (_ (_(_/ / ( o / (_ (_(_/ / ( o / (_ (_(_/ / ( o
Although if this is meant as a response to the ECW and their chanting, one can
certainly question any honesty on your part, Mr. Prazak... because if that's
what its meant to be, then this isn't the action of somebody wanting to bury
the hatchet.
I've said enough. Happy Thanksgiving. Enjoy the shows.
Pete.
MadDogJMF
"For the past month, eh? Show me my posts and/or chat logs backing this
up. If
"bashing" is considered any negative comment about ECW or my *OPINION* of
their product, then I guess I've "bashed." But the "bashing" back by ECW
fans
has been several times as much as I or anyone else dished out. One
"They're
always brawling, and it's getting repetitive," to sixteen "Coralosers." "
I stand corrected, it hasn't been the past month. IT's been the past two
months . . .
"300%? Is it my fault that NWA did 25 one night and 600 the next?
Nope.чЈwдv3тнычі"
"I was wrong? If I'm not mistaken, I publicly posted over two months ago
that
on 11/19, ECW would do their usual "sell out," and NWA would do 600. NWA
did
700. Why would I be backing down now?"
But they didn't do 600 the next. I've talked to 3 people who have talked
to people working the show, what did they draw? 200 to 300 at the most for
Cherry Hill -- paid. Not 700 not 600 not 650, at the most 300.
"That's just plain bullshit. I criticized ECW's almost "all brawling"
strategy
and said that the more basic wrestling would appeal to a wider audience,
and
that's an "all out attack on the ECW." My gosh..."
Well Dave nice spin control again, you've done more on that and you know
it. I'm glad you're seeing the world through a fuzzy coating again, but
we'll remember it in the future . .
"if having a differing opinion is illegal."
Nope, nothing wrong with having a personal opinion, but when you distort
the facts and pass on bogus information in order to hurt a promotion then
you cross the lines. Have you done that? Knowingly? I doubt it you even
realize it, but you have and followed it up with personal attacks and made
my life hell for two months now. Why? I'm an ECW mutant. I'm firing back
Dave, hope you like it . . .
"Oh, and MadDog, wake up. I've received a ton of E-mail over the past
three
days, a great deal of it from the ECW fans here on the Net, agreeing with
me
that this back and forth crap is pointless, and we've basically decided to
end
this thing. Tom Misnik even wished me a Happy Thanksgiving at the end of
his
E-mail. Look around. You're the only one keeping this thing going, and I'm
going to end my contibution to this now..."
More spin control (totally ignoring recent attacks), but alas, Dave, have
a Happy Thanksgiving.
MADDOGJMF
Dark Cheetah
>I think the ECW regulars are getting WAY too involved with their ECW attitude.
>And these are some of the very same that have posted in the past about how
>they hate all the flame wars and all the negativity that has taken over
>r.s.p-w.
Paul, I would appreciate if you, among many others, would please stop
making blanket assertions about a monolithic mass of what you term the
"ECW regulars" (others have posted much less flattering words). After
all, you and Jesse Money attend the same Texas shows but you certainly
post differing opinions about them... how would you feel if someone
started complaining about those "Crockett regulars" posting too much or
having a "NWA attitude"?
I would have to consider myself an ECW regular, though I have not attended
that many shows and I have never seen the TV show. I have really enjoyed
attending the shows and when I have had fun, I have always posted my
opinions in that spirit. So I resent the implication that everyone who
enjoys ECW has this ECW attitude.
And for your information, I do indeed hate all the flame wars and
negativity that have taken over rspw, no matter _who_ is contributing to
it. Indeed, I have taken several people to task for that, no matter what
side they have been on, but I have tried to do it quietly via the
time-honored tradition of email, rather than add to the turf-war now
raging on the group...
I responded to your post only because I felt personally affected by it,
and wanted to make my position-- as one of those ECW regulars-- clear to
the group at large. I would also like to take this chance to remind
EVERYONE that, as they say in my family, "You are entitled to your
opinion... even if it's wrong."
I'll listen to anyone's _opinion_: yours, Money's, Prazak's, Scherer's,
Patrizio's, etc. What I won't listen to are insults and plain stupidity.
>obviously isn't the Philly way. An example, I see nothing but the highest
>praises for the Bad Breed, sounds like they're the next coming of Brody.
Well, I like them. They're fun; they work very hard and take some _nasty_
shots. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it (even if it's wrong
*grin*).
No, they aren't anywhere near perfect, only Curt Hennig is *smile* but
still, I like them. They put forth the _best_ effort they have, such as
it may be, in _every_ show I've seen them in, and I appreciate that a lot.
Dark Cheetah
===========================================================================
"You ain't a bad girl honey, no matter what the neighbors say...
It's just you wear those skin-tight dresses with the G string tuned to A"
--Whitesnake, "Kittens Got Claws"
===========================================================================
MadDogJMF
(Pete Barlow) writes:
"Not to bash the ECWMutants, but Mr. Prazak has a point here. First it
was
Herb, then Evan, now Dave. There is a continual, repetitive cycle here. "
The point here Pete, is that Dave started this one on his own -- he
started the out and out attacks on the ECW and continually bashed me on
the subject until I fired back. Now that I'm questioning his actions it's
all a "continual, repetitive cycle here . . ."
"And I think with just the one question there that Mr. Prazak makes an
all-too-valid point. Wrestling crowds are not predictable. Which show
was it
by the WCW that they gave out 5,000 freebies, and then promptly turned
away
some people? Predictable? Not at all."
And the second note. Since Saturday I've had someone who talked to the
ticket taker send me a report from the NWA show: 120-something prepaid,
200-300 total paid. I've had another person who used to work for
Coraluzzo and has access to the Coraluzzo offices, what's the estimate he
got when he talked to the Coraluzzo people? 120-something prepaid,
200-300 people at the show. Finally, someone who couldn't go to either
show but had a friend go to the NWA show -- the estimate he got from his
friend? 200 -300.
A consistant 300 people at the most from three different sources, all who
-- as far as I know -- don't know each other. Not 700, not 600, 300 at
the most. Why is this important? Because I'll be bashed my mr. Prazak
until the end of time with at "700 paid baby" figure that only 1 person
has reported to be true . . .
MADDOGJMF
D.E. Prazak
: And the second note. Since Saturday I've had someone who talked to the
: ticket taker send me a report from the NWA show: 120-something prepaid,
: 200-300 total paid. I've had another person who used to work for
: Coraluzzo and has access to the Coraluzzo offices, what's the estimate he
: got when he talked to the Coraluzzo people? 120-something prepaid,
: 200-300 people at the show. Finally, someone who couldn't go to either
: show but had a friend go to the NWA show -- the estimate he got from his
: friend? 200 -300.
: A consistant 300 people at the most from three different sources, all who
: -- as far as I know -- don't know each other. Not 700, not 600, 300 at
: the most. Why is this important? Because I'll be bashed my mr. Prazak
: until the end of time with at "700 paid baby" figure that only 1 person
: has reported to be true . . .
Mike Grimaldi- estimated it at 650 when he got back that night
Bill Larrabee- strong ECW supporter; was at show, estimated 700
Regis Hildebrand- on platform above arena; did head count, about 675 in
building halfway through the card
Brian Hildebrand- refereed the event; told me on Monday there were about 700
in the building
Mike Tenay- reports on his WCW hotline message today that there were 625 paid.
dp
D.E. Prazak
: Funny... me with the hair-trigger temper picks now to jump in... and it has
Scherer was using the name "NW_WHAT," and I simply countered his anti-NWA with
an anti-ECW name. Funny how none of the NWA supporters are complaining about
constnat NWA bashing by several people, yet those same people are whining
about this...
: > : In the past two months he's passed out bogus information about ECW shows
By "more basic wrestling," I meant regular, American style wrestling. ECW is,
and they admit to being, its own style. For the most part, brawling. More
people will regularly support an SMW-type organization that an ECW-type, as
the numbers show. Haven't yet seen ECW draw 5,000+ paid for one card, yet SMW
has. And Knoxville is a small town in comparison to Philadelphia
population-wise, so SMW is drawing from a smaller group of people.
Eugene Stern
>Not to bash the ECWMutants, but Mr. Prazak has a point here. First it was
>Herb, then Evan, now Dave. There is a continual, repetitive cycle here.
>Whoever says anything "bad" about an ECW show gets flamed to at least a
minor
>degree by the acknowledged ECW show regulars. And it has to stop. Look,
>somebody out there is gonna disagree with the product, its intentions,
what
>have you. That's fine. Let it go. Don't let the other guy ruin your
utopia.
>Live and let live. And I know that sounds hopelessly idealistic, yes, but
>think about it... whoever said that the same people campaigning against
all the
>wasted bandwidth are the same ones creating it are right. Incidentally,
these
>are the same people that subscribed to the info-only mailing list. (which
as
>luck would have it is currently down for the holiday so Pete can do some
work
>on it). You figure it out.
Well, I must admit, Prazak does have the right to voice his opinion.
But here is a piece of advice that maybe we should all think about.
As someone mentioned before, this is wrestling. Now I for one, work my
butt off all week at my shit-ass job. When I come into RSPW, I expect to
see results of live and TV taping shows. I get enough crap at work to
stress me out. I for one am a ECW regular. Why do I have the "N.W. What"
in my sig? Because this lets me voice my opinion without having to sling
mud, or shit choose your poison, at everyone cuz they disagree with me.
You know what-- I couldn't give 2 shits as to whether or not Prazak likes
or dislikes ECW. Flaming is fun, dont get me wrong, but sooner or later,
when there is no middle ground for compromise, then I think it's time for
all you whiny folks to shut the ***F*** up and just stick to reporting
wrestling card results.
And when I wake up, that fine Saturday morning every month, and make my
trek from beautiful NYC down to Philly, I will be thinking of everyone who
dislikes ECW. Because all I know is that it's hard to have an opinion
until you experience the real mccoy. And I always laugh REAL hard in my
car because I know that I am on the way to seeing some facinating wrestling
that makes me forget about the rigors of 9-5 work and all the shit that
goes on in NYC.
Enjoy!!!
N.W. What? I AM THE GIRAFFE N.W. What?
*****************************************************************************
Eugene Stern -- Also known as Giraffe -- Live from Stinky NYC!
ees...@pipeline.com
Foster's, it's Australian for beer mate!
I can't drive 55 ------------------- LETS GO ISLANDERS!
I is a ECWMutant
*****************************************************************************
MadDogJMF
writes:
And we're at dueling banjo's again . . .
I thought you were "done" with this thread?
MADDOGJMF
MadDogJMF
"Mike Grimaldi- estimated it at 650 when he got back that night
Bill Larrabee- strong ECW supporter; was at show, estimated 700
Regis Hildebrand- on platform above arena; did head count, about 675 in
building halfway through the card
Brian Hildebrand- refereed the event; told me on Monday there were about
700
in the building
Mike Tenay- reports on his WCW hotline message today that there were 625
paid."
Actually, I ammend my last comment with a big salute to you Dave, for
finally doing something you haven't done in the past -- sighting your
sources. Thank you, you've finally done what I've asked you to do since
the begining of the thread and for this I give you a big thumbs up.
That's all I've wanted since the begining (though I still totally dispute
the figures because they just don't match up with the reports and the
headcounts I continue to recieve), and I humbly bow out of the thread. My
purpose has been has been fulfilled and I salute you Dave, for finally
taking responsiblity for your actions.
MADDOGJMF
Paul R. Perdeus
: > RSPW. You make it sound like the ECW fans are just trying to be
: And like MadDogJMF mentioned, most of this has occurred in the IRC chat areas
: and AOL, neither of which I frequent. So, unfortunately, all I see is the
: result. Part of the reason I wrote what I did is because I knew everyone would
: respond with their side.
Fair enough!
: Well, first of all, if you wish to include the world, AAA and All-Japan kick
: ECW's ass in all regards of the business (I guess that's why I put ECW 3rd in
First of all, that's your opinion. I would rather see ECW than AAA 7
days a week and rather see it over AJ 5 days out of 7.
: Both of their fans are as rabid as the ECW gang, they have both
: drawn houses that Tod Gordon can only have wet dreams about, and their talent
: base from top to bottom is at a bit higher level. All-Japan really doesn't
: have angles, I guess, but Antonio Pena runs the best angles ever. Lessee...
: what would I rather have: another Singapore cane or Hijo del Santo & Eddy
: Guerrero fighting for their the honor of their fathers?
As i said above, you may rather see the honor match, I'd rather see the
cane. Also, as far as Tod's wet dreams; Paul - ECW's been around a year
and a half-ish. Do you really expect them to be able to compete in those
terms with AJ or AAA for that matter? How long have they been around?
: And I think it's pretty obvious why the ECW fans are so supportive of their
: beloved organization. So much of it has been promoted by Tod as being "us
: against them". It's always been that way, even when Eddie Gilbert was the
This could very well be true for some. It's not true for others (myself
included).
: a style different than anywhere else (except W*ING?). Shane Douglas comes out
: in public and challenges Flair to an hour-long shoot? Chad Austin getting
: destroyed for saying he liked working for SMW better? Anywhere else in the
: world, I think these angles would go down like the Hindenburg. But in ECW,
: the fans thrive on it.
Well, it's just part of the style, ya know. Kind of like a running
angle. It's what makes ECW ECW. You know - kind of the way running lame
angles is WCW's trademark! :)
: Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Hell, I wish I could have that
: much pride in my local wrestling group (I hope someday I will). But
: the more ECW fans I see on the net, and the more vocal these guys
: become about "we're the best, fuck you" (yes, I know nobody has said
: that directly, but that's the attitude I was talking about earlier, and
: if the ECW hard-cores think they don't have it, well, I guess our
: impressions differ), the more I can understand why Herb had a bad
: taste in his mouth from SMW Fan Week.
I tried to explain this in my earlier post (as to why it may come across
this way). As far as the Fan Week thing goes, Dave even found out that
the Sabu chant was an inside jab at Smothers, which just goes to show
that it's not always as it seems on the outside. Kinda like pro
wrestling eh?
David Sternshein
>Path:
>nntp.interaccess.com!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!
>uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>From: madd...@aol.com (MadDogJMF)
>Newsgroups: rec.sport.pro-wrestling
>Subject: Re: Attitude is everything (was Re: [ECW] 11/19 report)
>Date: 24 Nov 1994 20:00:19 -0500
>Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
>Lines: 25
>Sender: ne...@newsbf01.news.aol.com
>Message-ID: <3b3cv3$r...@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
>References: <CzsB9...@rci.ripco.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com
>Actually, I ammend my last comment with a big salute to you Dave, for
>finally doing something you haven't done in the past -- sighting your
>sources. Thank you, you've finally done what I've asked you to do since
>the begining of the thread and for this I give you a big thumbs up.
>That's all I've wanted since the begining (though I still totally dispute
>the figures because they just don't match up with the reports and the
>headcounts I continue to recieve), and I humbly bow out of the thread. My
>purpose has been has been fulfilled and I salute you Dave, for finally
>taking responsiblity for your actions.
>MADDOGJMF
I don't understand. You've never given a name for any of your sources. You
said things like "A former employee of Coraluzzo who has access to Coraluzzo's
office" or "some guy who was at the NWA show." Could you please use names of
the people that told you that that attendance was 200-300? Also, how could
you dispute Mike Tenay? Come on. :)
Again, I simply ask you to provide us with names that have told you 200-300,
and Dave Scherer don't count. Thanks
Larry Sternshein
Just curious
--
joh...@ripco.com and davids@interaccess are my E-mail addresses so you can flame me, make fun of me, or just tell me how much you like me.
Better to be first in Hell
than second in Heaven-Lance Henrikson in Stone Cold
Pete Barlow
> In article <1994Nov23.191138.34624@miavx1>, pmba...@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
> (Pete Barlow) writes:
>
> "Not to bash the ECWMutants, but Mr. Prazak has a point here. First it
> was
> Herb, then Evan, now Dave. There is a continual, repetitive cycle here. "
> The point here Pete, is that Dave started this one on his own -- he
> started the out and out attacks on the ECW and continually bashed me on
> the subject until I fired back. Now that I'm questioning his actions it's
> all a "continual, repetitive cycle here . . ."
Go back. Re-read what I wrote again. The continuous, repetitive cycle is in
direct reference to the fact that anybody who says anything negative about ECW
on this newsgroup gets flamed. Whether you're questioning his actions or not
doesn't matter much, at least not in the nature of that statement.
> "And I think with just the one question there that Mr. Prazak makes an
> all-too-valid point. Wrestling crowds are not predictable. Which show
> was it
> by the WCW that they gave out 5,000 freebies, and then promptly turned
> away
> some people? Predictable? Not at all."
> A consistant 300 people at the most from three different sources, all who
> -- as far as I know -- don't know each other. Not 700, not 600, 300 at
> the most. Why is this important? Because I'll be bashed my mr. Prazak
> until the end of time with at "700 paid baby" figure that only 1 person
> has reported to be true . . .
Hey, and that's all good and fine, but what relevance did any of this have to
the paragraph of mine you quoted above? So Prazak's attendance figures were
off... *shrug* life goes on. It's a time-honoured tradition for people in the
wrestling business to exaggerate figures. Andre the Giant was never 7'5.
Whether Prazak's 700 number is right or wrong doesn't matter to me. The point
was, and still is, wrestling crowds and the sizes thereof are not predictable
things. I'm not questioning anybody's honesty at all with that statement.
Pete.
Pete Barlow
> Pete Barlow (pmba...@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu) wrote:
> : In article <Czqt4...@rci.ripco.com>, dp4...@ripco.com (D.E. Prazak) writes:
> : > Anyone interested, ask Mr. Finch to forward you chat logs of my "tirades." God
> : > damn... if having a differing opinion is illegal... at least I never resorted
> : > to name calling, or profanity...
> : Until now. I honestly can't think of a Catholic who'd appreciate the Goddamn
> : comment. And no, maybe you haven't resorted to name calling or profanity, but
> : changing your nickname to ECWsux and then logging off is hardly what one would
> : call "mature" either. Think about it; who do you think is farther along the
> : maturity scale, you or them? It just might have been you, but with that stunt,
> : you brought yourself right back down to everybody else's level.
> Scherer was using the name "NW_WHAT," and I simply countered his anti-NWA with
> an anti-ECW name.
I'm aware of that. Hell, I was there. But that doesn't excuse the action. If
you pride yourself on being a cut above the ECW Mutants, then all something
like that does is bring you right down to their level.
> Funny how none of the NWA supporters are complaining about
> constnat NWA bashing by several people, yet those same people are whining
> about this...
I'm an NWA supporter. I'm also an ECW supporter, a WWF supporter, an NJ
supporter, and AJW supporter, a AAA suporter, a AJ supporter, a (fill-in league
initials here) supporter.
And had you stopped to think that, in these NWA supporters eyes, all your stunt
did was make the NWA fans look just as bad as the ECW ones?
> : > That's just plain bullshit. I criticized ECW's almost "all brawling" strategy
> : > and said that the more basic wrestling would appeal to a wider audience, and
> : > that's an "all out attack on the ECW."
> : Problem with statement: more basic wrestling will not appeal to a wider
> : audience. Not in North America. It will in Japan, but not here. North
> : American demand a certain colour and flair (no pun intended) with their
> : wrestling, mostly because Vince and Hogan have made them believe so. Fifteen
> : years ago, Prazak's statement would have held true. Today, it doesn't. The
> : youth don't want technical skills, they want creativity. Why do you think
> : Doink is so far over? Three good reasons... Dink, Wink, and Pink.
> By "more basic wrestling," I meant regular, American style wrestling. ECW is,
> and they admit to being, its own style. For the most part, brawling.
As does WCW (Hogan is God), WWF (DOINK!!!!!), SMW (Cornette is God), AJ, NJ,
AJW, AAA... you see my point here? (I hope so. I sure as hell don't.)
> More
> people will regularly support an SMW-type organization that an ECW-type, as
> the numbers show. Haven't yet seen ECW draw 5,000+ paid for one card, yet SMW
> has.
Conversely... has ECW played to a building that can *hold* 5,000? I don't
think so... the biggest place would be ECW Arena, which can hold 1,500 tops.
Kinda rules the numbers thing out if they haven't played anywhere that big yet.
On the other hand, think about this... ECW sells out constantly. Can SMW say
the same?
Pete.
Evan Schlesinger
>Pete Barlow <pmba...@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> wrote:
>>In article <Czqt4...@rci.ripco.com>, dp4...@ripco.com (D.E. Prazak) writes:
>>> MadDogJMF (madd...@aol.com) wrote:
>> For the past month, eh? Show me my posts and/or chat logs backing this up. If
>> "bashing" is considered any negative comment about ECW or my *OPINION* of
>> their product, then I guess I've "bashed." But the "bashing" back by ECW fans
>> has been several times as much as I or anyone else dished out. One "They're
>> always brawling, and it's getting repetitive," to sixteen "Coralosers."
>
>Not to bash the ECWMutants, but Mr. Prazak has a point here. First it was
>Herb, then Evan, now Dave. There is a continual, repetitive cycle here.
>Whoever says anything "bad" about an ECW show gets flamed to at least a minor
>degree by the acknowledged ECW show regulars.
Depending on the person, the degree varies tremendously.
> And no, maybe you haven't resorted to name calling or profanity, but
>changing your nickname to ECWsux and then logging off is hardly what one would
>call "mature" either. Think about it; who do you think is farther along the
>maturity scale, you or them? It just might have been you, but with that stunt,
>you brought yourself right back down to everybody else's level.
>
I'm barely following this argument, and I know that the reason why Dave
changed his name to "ECWsux" was to combat King Hippo's "N W What" name.
Yes, Prazak did bring himself to Hippo's level, but it is once again, quite
sad that Dave Prazak gets attacked continually for his little name change, and no one
dare calls King Hippo on his. The hypocrisy runs rampant again.
>
>> That's just plain bullshit. I criticized ECW's almost "all brawling" strategy
>> and said that the more basic wrestling would appeal to a wider audience, and
>> that's an "all out attack on the ECW."
>
>Problem with statement: more basic wrestling will not appeal to a wider
>audience. Not in North America. It will in Japan, but not here. North
>American demand a certain colour and flair (no pun intended) with their
>wrestling, mostly because Vince and Hogan have made them believe so. Fifteen
>years ago, Prazak's statement would have held true. Today, it doesn't. The
>youth don't want technical skills, they want creativity. Why do you think
>Doink is so far over? Three good reasons... Dink, Wink, and Pink.
Not so sure about that either. I don't think a more limited style will
necessarily appeal on a larger basis. There are those who just simply don't
like ECW style wrestling, which is PRIMARILY brawling. And we are talking
about hardcore fans here. Doink is over? Pete, are you feeling ok?
EVAN
No taglines necessary.
Evan Schlesinger
Dark Cheetah <edm...@access4.digex.net> wrote:
>Paul D. Herzog <pdhe...@hooter.aud.alcatel.com> wrote:
>
>>I think the ECW regulars are getting WAY too involved with their ECW attitude.
>>And these are some of the very same that have posted in the past about how
>>they hate all the flame wars and all the negativity that has taken over
>>r.s.p-w.
>
>Paul, I would appreciate if you, among many others, would please stop
>making blanket assertions about a monolithic mass of what you term the
>"ECW regulars" (others have posted much less flattering words). After
>all, you and Jesse Money attend the same Texas shows but you certainly
>post differing opinions about them... how would you feel if someone
>started complaining about those "Crockett regulars" posting too much or
>having a "NWA attitude"?
Well, for one thing, they ARE Crockett Regulars. Although I'm not sure what
kind of attitude you could be reading from off of them. Except that they keep
coming back for more horrible wrestling. A masochistic attitude, perhaps.
EVAN
No taglines necessary.