Realism and Wrestling Japan vs US
"High Priest" Tony Shinzaki
thedum...@cs.commander (The Big Crapper) spoketh to the messiah,
the following:
>But when you think about it, Wrestling is never and should never be about
>realism. For one thing, its about Larger than life characters.
Why not? Because fans can't comprehend it? Because the rubes have been
programmed to like short horrid matches?
>Its wrestling is not supposed to be realistic, just entertaining.
Realism is entertaining.
>Wrestling is an art form and its entertainment, and its something I love. But
>its not to resemble real fighting, we all know this. So don't take realism to
>far.
Wrestling isn't supposed to be a side show act, either. It's supposed
to be about a bunch of workers working hard enough to earn a push to
the top. Of course, in the states, titles are meaningless, so that's
dead. Now it's about whatever guy can string together the most
catchphrases and make the rubes piss themselves with enjoyment.
Nothing wrong with making it entertaining for the mizarks, but there
are better ways to go about it.
Talk is cheap, is probably the best quote concerning wrestling today
one can come up with.
I don't need someone on the mic to tell me about the storyline. I'm
not some moron that can't figure it out for themselves. I don't
understand much Japanese, but I can understand what's going on there
better than the storylines in the states, without a single word being
spoken to me.
Two guys hate each other, and want the title, or to beat the crap out
of each other. That's all there should be to it. It's simple, but it
speaks far higher volumes than any bit of mic work from a united
states worker.
I'd rather not have to listen to the moronic commentators, either.
Silence during a match, or a Japanese commentator is a Godsend, in
this case.
I also don't need non-wrestlers in the ring. I don't want the owner's
son, daughter, brother-in-law, great uncle, or whatever wrestling
unless they are fully trained to *work*.
--Doc K
tony at drknet dot net
http://www.drknet.net
http://tapes.drknet.net - My tape page
http://biazza.org/xtreme - The premiere XPW fansite
"You aint gotta like me -- You just mad, cuz I tell it how it is, and you tell it how it might be." - NIN, Victory
The Big Crapper
When you watch Japanese wrestling, its easier to be a mark. Why? The moves
actually do look more real, not necessarily realistic, but real. take for
example Chyna doing a backdrop. The opponent stands still for 2 seconds, it
takes 2 seconds for chyna to grab him, than chyna delivers a backdrop. It
doesn't look real one bit. In Japan it looks much better, usually.
Japanese chops and kicks are usually stiffer and more realistic looking, and by
looking at it you can actually think "wow, that really hurts" unlike most US
wrestling. There's some realism. Plus, Japan uses much better "Ring
Psychology"
But when you think about it, Wrestling is never and should never be about
realism. For one thing, its about Larger than life characters. Not guys
trying to make a name for themselves out of the ghetto. It has a real american
hero, an iraqi sympathizer, a man of darkness, etc.
Its wrestling is not supposed to be realistic, just entertaining. take for
example the figure four. Ric Flair works over the opponents knee the entire
match to set up the figure four. This is great entertainment if you have an
attention span (unlike the average fan of the 4 minute main event now adays)
But, this is not realism. If it were realism, Flair would simply try to put
him in the sleeper hold or the camel clutch, as those work much quicker and
don't require any "prepping" as they just make you unconsciouss. but there is
no buildup for those, so we get the more elaborate finishers which allow us to
have more entertaining matches.
Its not about realism, but its about entertainment. In Japan I saw a match
where 2 guy were working over eachother. One with armbars, the other with the
bow and arrow lock. This seems like legitimate wrestling, "realistic"
wrestling if you will.......than one does a tumbling flip to outside the ring.
All high flying moves are unrealistic, they are there for entertainment, not
realism.
However, that being said, it makes it MUCH more entertaining if the moves look
REAL in terms of the contact and effect of the move doesn't look forced by the
wrestler selling the move.
This is where Realism is important. Not that the matches were believable,
because if that was the purpose, everything would look like the UFC, but that
it allows you to get into it without feeling your intelligence is insulted.
STUART
Well put. I don't think anyone, especially not me, truly looks for realism
in wrestling but if it's there... cool. That's why I love puro. There is
something for *ANY* style of wrestling fan. BattlARTS is a very convincing
worked shoot style promotion which features some brutally stiff (loud) kicks
and lot's of takedowns into submissions, with many matches ending by KO.
Then there are the spotfu leagues with psychology implemented such as MPro,
Toryumon and Osaka Pro. Then the garbage leagues such as Big Japan, IWA
Japan and Onita Pro. Then the technical leagues such as New Japan. Then the
hard-hitting heavyweight leagues such as All Japan and NOAH. And so on. Even
"entertainment wrestling" (a more ring-driven sports-entertainment) from
FMW. For me it's not about realism, but rather variety. I enjoy something of
everything and that's why I love puroresu.
--
Wrestling Viewpoint! - http://www.viewpoint.f2s.com - Puroresu, ECW &
sports-entertainment reviews, rosters & more.
FIGHTING SPIRIT!
Your Death Match Hero: Tomoaki Honma
Tajiri 3:16 says "I'll kick you right in the freaking face"
Krusty
news:m5cc1tgppkhtdblbi...@4ax.com...
> On the 7th day of the 7th month of the 7th year of their existence,
> thedum...@cs.commander (The Big Crapper) spoketh to the messiah,
> the following:
>
> >realism. For one thing, its about Larger than life characters.
>
> programmed to like short horrid matches?
Because it's staged entertainment...have you seriously thought about maybe
joining a no holds barred tournament or something? It seems obvious that you
don't understand that wrestling is stupid, larger than life, comic book
entertainment...no matter where you go it's all staged, fake,
entertainment...
You realize you're now like one of those trekkies who argues over warp coils
and how to *REALLY* go warp speed don't you? Completely oblivious that
you're arguing about a TV show...
> >Its wrestling is not supposed to be realistic, just entertaining.
>
> Realism is entertaining.
Then watch amateur wrestling, watch no holds barred, watch boxing, watch
tournament fighting...but don't watch wrestling (fixed, staged wrestling by
the way) and yell at us saying it should be more 'real'...you just sound
like a silly mark...
> Wrestling isn't supposed to be a side show act, either. It's supposed
> to be about a bunch of workers working hard enough to earn a push to
> the top. Of course, in the states, titles are meaningless, so that's
> dead. Now it's about whatever guy can string together the most
> catchphrases and make the rubes piss themselves with enjoyment.
Yes it is, again you show very little understanding of what pro wrestlng
is...you *DO* realize of course that it CAME from carnival side shows right?
You know that the origins of the sport you know and love came DIRECTLY from
carnival side shows...and ALL of the lingo you use (mark, work, kayfabe) ALL
come from carnival-speak...so actually, you're completely wrong
Tony...wrestling *WAS* meant as a side show act...literally
> Nothing wrong with making it entertaining for the mizarks, but there
> are better ways to go about it.
Sure, like I said, no holds barred fighting, boxing, amateur wrestling,
etc...but not PRO WRESLTING...that's fake...
> I don't need someone on the mic to tell me about the storyline. I'm
> not some moron that can't figure it out for themselves. I don't
> understand much Japanese, but I can understand what's going on there
> better than the storylines in the states, without a single word being
> spoken to me.
That's you...Personally, I and many others in rspw who have spoken on this
before when we talked about it, overwhemingly love a good announcing
team...Gorilla/Heenan, Ventura...see, now you're saying stuff that just
sounds like you have a great deal of bitterness towards something that
supposedly you love...
> Two guys hate each other, and want the title, or to beat the crap out
> of each other. That's all there should be to it. It's simple, but it
> speaks far higher volumes than any bit of mic work from a united
> states worker.
Okay-mr.-pro-wrestling-bookerman-who-knows-WAY-more-than-us...answer me
this..
HOW THE FUCK do you take over 60 men and have them ALL fight for the title
when there's ONLY FOUR OF THEM...you HAVE to HAVE stories...Tony, not
everyone can fight for the title...that's WHY you have stories...some people
can be off fighting a guy whojumped them in a lockeroom last week and not
have it be about a title at ALL...some people can fight because a guy kissed
his wife...Jake the Snake and Rude, a GREAT angle where not ONCE did it take
up a title run...you can name THOUSANDS of great angles that have NOTHING to
do with a title run...I think you're looking at it wrong personally, I think
it's MORE creative and MORE intelligent to give us MORE than just some
moronic "guy wants title, guy fights guy for title" gimme a
break...zzzzzzz...seen it a million times...how is *THAT* more engaging than
trying to tell a story? You make no sense...
> I'd rather not have to listen to the moronic commentators, either.
> Silence during a match, or a Japanese commentator is a Godsend, in
> this case.
You have a mute on your TV? Use it and stop whining...
> I also don't need non-wrestlers in the ring. I don't want the owner's
> son, daughter, brother-in-law, great uncle, or whatever wrestling
> unless they are fully trained to *work*.
Yeah, that poor poor SHane, imagine him getting in the ring without any
training...oh yeah, I forgot, he did train, at Stamford...come to think of
it, I bet he's trained more than you...and please...look back up and read
that last statement...Crapper's right, you guys are the BIGGEST marks out
there...you TOTALLY buy into the fact that *your* wrestling is somehow
different than the WWF and WCW but you can't see the forest for the trees...
Hey after we talk about this, you wanna talk about star trek and how warp
coils really work? *snicker*
"High Priest" Tony Shinzaki
>Yes it is, again you show very little understanding of what pro wrestlng
>is...you *DO* realize of course that it CAME from carnival side shows right?
>You know that the origins of the sport you know and love came DIRECTLY from
>carnival side shows...and ALL of the lingo you use (mark, work, kayfabe) ALL
>come from carnival-speak...so actually, you're completely wrong
>Tony...wrestling *WAS* meant as a side show act...literally
This is my last post on this subject. . .
To clarify:
- Yes, I know wrestling is "staged", having done the "staging"
myself.
- Yes, I know about the "carnivals", and how wrestling started. I
have known for a very long time.
- Yes, I believe wrestling has evolved past crap like that.
- Yes, I have a higher standard for the wrestling that I watch, and I
believe in attempting to set an even higher standard.
- Yes, I watch MMA/NHB fighting, and I'll be damned if I don't enjoy
it.
- No, I do not like Vince McMahon, any member of his family, Vince
Russo, Eric Bischoff -- As a matter of fact, there are very few
promoters/bookers that I actually trust, or like. 80% of the
promoters/bookers out there are scumbags and carny bastards (I'm
looking at you, Roland Alexander.) and the only exceptions I can think
of off hand are the one I worked for, Rico Valentino, and another
PNW/Canadian promoter by the name of Dave Republic.
I think that about clears it up.
Ripclawe
worked for and do you feel that vince mcmahon, any members of his
family,russo, bischoff don't sleep well at night knowing that a talent such
as yourself is out and about not signed? Have you tried out for New japan or
any japanese feds as yet? I think NJPW opened up an office in L.A. , do they
know about you? What about going to the big two? have you ever asked for a
tryout?
--
_____________________________
REALVIDEO WWF,WCW, and Japanese Highlights.
http://members.aol.com/narbosa/video.html
""High Priest" Tony Shinzaki" <to...@SPAMdrkBLOCKAGE.net> wrote in message
news:iode1t832r42vs2r3...@4ax.com...
> On the 7th day of the 7th month of the 7th year of their existence,
> "Krusty" <Kru...@hahaha.com> spoketh to the messiah, the following:
>
> >Yes it is, again you show very little understanding of what pro wrestlng
> >is...you *DO* realize of course that it CAME from carnival side shows
right?
> >You know that the origins of the sport you know and love came DIRECTLY
from
> >carnival side shows...and ALL of the lingo you use (mark, work, kayfabe)
ALL
> >come from carnival-speak...so actually, you're completely wrong
> >Tony...wrestling *WAS* meant as a side show act...literally
>
"High Priest" Tony Shinzaki
>how many promoters have you actually worked for?
6 or 7 various promoters in Oregon, California, and one in Maryland.
>how many feds you have worked for
4.
>and do you feel that vince mcmahon, any members of his
>family,russo, bischoff don't sleep well at night knowing that a talent such
>as yourself is out and about not signed?
Why do you care? I certainly don't.
>Have you tried out for New japan or any japanese feds as yet?
Once I get to working with ECCW, and I've been there a long while, I
will likely ask to work for IWA Japan, if their deal is still active.
Perhaps when Bret Como comes back from working for Ultimo Dragon, I'll
ask him about working for Toryumon.
>I think NJPW opened up an office in L.A.
That's nice.
>do they know about you?
No.
>What about going to the big two?
Fuck no.
>have you ever asked for a tryout?
Never.
ViNNY
news:8v6b7s$6o81$1...@news3.infoave.net...
> ""High Priest" Tony Shinzaki" <to...@SPAMdrkBLOCKAGE.net> wrote in message
> news:m5cc1tgppkhtdblbi...@4ax.com...
> > On the 7th day of the 7th month of the 7th year of their existence,
> > thedum...@cs.commander (The Big Crapper) spoketh to the messiah,
> > the following:
> >
> > >But when you think about it, Wrestling is never and should never be
about
> > >realism. For one thing, its about Larger than life characters.
> >
> > Why not? Because fans can't comprehend it? Because the rubes have been
> > programmed to like short horrid matches?
>
> Because it's staged entertainment...have you seriously thought about maybe
> joining a no holds barred tournament or something? It seems obvious that
you
> don't understand that wrestling is stupid, larger than life, comic book
> entertainment...no matter where you go it's all staged, fake,
> entertainment...
Fake, yes. Entertainment, yes. "Larger than life stupid comic book" is
something that has only come about in the past 25-30 years, and it's only
like that in America.
> You realize you're now like one of those trekkies who argues over warp
coils
> and how to *REALLY* go warp speed don't you? Completely oblivious that
> you're arguing about a TV show...
So why discuss it at all? Everyone here is exactly the same to one degree or
another.
> > >Its wrestling is not supposed to be realistic, just entertaining.
> >
> > Realism is entertaining.
>
> Then watch amateur wrestling, watch no holds barred, watch boxing, watch
> tournament fighting...but don't watch wrestling (fixed, staged wrestling
by
> the way) and yell at us saying it should be more 'real'...you just sound
> like a silly mark...
As he just said, realism can be entertaining.
Wrestling entertains me a whole helluva lot more when I can suspend
disbelief for the duration of the tape/show/match. YES, I know it's fake. Do
I want to be constantly reminded of that during the entire event? Fuck no.
In that respect, the WWF right now is like the Scream movies - endless
references to the fact that "it's only a movie" while trying to build a
"shoot" storyline underneath it. It doesn't work for me. If I can't forget
that this is worked entertainment and just enjoy the match, the only thing
of real interest to me is "I wonder how they've booked this one", and who
really gives a shit about that crap?
> > Wrestling isn't supposed to be a side show act, either. It's supposed
> > to be about a bunch of workers working hard enough to earn a push to
> > the top. Of course, in the states, titles are meaningless, so that's
> > dead. Now it's about whatever guy can string together the most
> > catchphrases and make the rubes piss themselves with enjoyment.
>
> Yes it is, again you show very little understanding of what pro wrestlng
> is...you *DO* realize of course that it CAME from carnival side shows
right?
> You know that the origins of the sport you know and love came DIRECTLY
from
> carnival side shows...and ALL of the lingo you use (mark, work, kayfabe)
ALL
> come from carnival-speak...so actually, you're completely wrong
> Tony...wrestling *WAS* meant as a side show act...literally
Sure it was. It *definitely* wasn't anything like you seem to think, though.
The "carnival sideshow" wrestling was far more like AJPW or Battlarts than
anything you'll see on your US cable TV box. Go check out
http://www.twc-online.com/thesz/index2.html if you don't buy it.
> > Nothing wrong with making it entertaining for the mizarks, but there
> > are better ways to go about it.
>
> Sure, like I said, no holds barred fighting, boxing, amateur wrestling,
> etc...but not PRO WRESLTING...that's fake...
I got news for you:
At least half of all heavyweight boxing matches are worked in some way.
Legit NHB contests are being buried by the worked companies like PRIDE or
RINGS. Amateur wrestling is practically underground. Works are everywhere -
but the fan can be entertained without being told about it...
> > I don't need someone on the mic to tell me about the storyline. I'm
> > not some moron that can't figure it out for themselves. I don't
> > understand much Japanese, but I can understand what's going on there
> > better than the storylines in the states, without a single word being
> > spoken to me.
>
> That's you...Personally, I and many others in rspw who have spoken on this
> before when we talked about it, overwhemingly love a good announcing
> team...Gorilla/Heenan, Ventura...see, now you're saying stuff that just
> sounds like you have a great deal of bitterness towards something that
> supposedly you love...
I watch wrestling to see a wrestling match. Announcers saying stupid shit
and talking about Stone Cold Steve Austin when I'm trying to enjoy Christian
vs Funaki is irrelevant at worst and distracting at best.
> > Two guys hate each other, and want the title, or to beat the crap out
> > of each other. That's all there should be to it. It's simple, but it
> > speaks far higher volumes than any bit of mic work from a united
> > states worker.
>
> Okay-mr.-pro-wrestling-bookerman-who-knows-WAY-more-than-us...answer me
> this..
>
> HOW THE FUCK do you take over 60 men and have them ALL fight for the title
> when there's ONLY FOUR OF THEM...you HAVE to HAVE stories...Tony, not
> everyone can fight for the title...that's WHY you have stories...some
people
> can be off fighting a guy whojumped them in a lockeroom last week and not
> have it be about a title at ALL...some people can fight because a guy
kissed
> his wife...Jake the Snake and Rude, a GREAT angle where not ONCE did it
take
> up a title run...you can name THOUSANDS of great angles that have NOTHING
to
> do with a title run...I think you're looking at it wrong personally, I
think
> it's MORE creative and MORE intelligent to give us MORE than just some
> moronic "guy wants title, guy fights guy for title" gimme a
> break...zzzzzzz...seen it a million times...how is *THAT* more engaging
than
> trying to tell a story? You make no sense...
"You tried to fuck my wife! I challenge you to a WORKED WRESTLING MATCH IN
FRONT OF A PAYING AUDIENCE!"
> > I'd rather not have to listen to the moronic commentators, either.
> > Silence during a match, or a Japanese commentator is a Godsend, in
> > this case.
>
> You have a mute on your TV? Use it and stop whining...
Comes in very handy :)
> > I also don't need non-wrestlers in the ring. I don't want the owner's
> > son, daughter, brother-in-law, great uncle, or whatever wrestling
> > unless they are fully trained to *work*.
>
> Yeah, that poor poor SHane, imagine him getting in the ring without any
> training...oh yeah, I forgot, he did train, at Stamford...come to think of
> it, I bet he's trained more than you...and please...look back up and read
> that last statement...Crapper's right, you guys are the BIGGEST marks out
> there...you TOTALLY buy into the fact that *your* wrestling is somehow
> different than the WWF and WCW but you can't see the forest for the
trees...
Shane trained for like a month, IIRC. He's pretty good, and I'd keep him as
an exception that proves the rule.
Stephanie McMahon-Helmsley.
Vince Russo.
David Arquette.
Jay Leno.
Mark Madden.
You want any more?
> Hey after we talk about this, you wanna talk about star trek and how warp
> coils really work? *snicker*
Heh.
-Vin