Vick's 1st TD last night
Matthew C. Aycock
and a season ticket holder. So, I was at the game last
night and I am not sure how in the world that the challenge
of Vick's first running TD was in fact a TD. The announcement
made by the ref was unclear at best. I believe that it was something
like "the ball was in the left hand but the right hand went
inside the pylon resulting in a TD."
I was sure then that "The Hammer" (aka T.J. Duckett) would have
powered the ball in for a score. But, I would still like to know
the rule governing this type of play.
Thanks!
Matt
--
Thanks,
Matt
----------
Matthew C. Aycock
Operating Systems Analyst/Developer, Lead
Dept Math/CS
Emory University, Atlanta, GA
Internet: ma...@mathcs.emory.edu
Rich and the Phantom Hook
<ma...@mathcs.emory.edu> wrote:
>I would like to start by saying that I am a Falcons fan
>and a season ticket holder. So, I was at the game last
>night and I am not sure how in the world that the challenge
>of Vick's first running TD was in fact a TD. The announcement
>made by the ref was unclear at best. I believe that it was something
>like "the ball was in the left hand but the right hand went
>inside the pylon resulting in a TD."
>
>I was sure then that "The Hammer" (aka T.J. Duckett) would have
>powered the ball in for a score. But, I would still like to know
>the rule governing this type of play.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Matt
The goal line extends infinitely. If the runner contacts the endzone,
it doesn't matter if the ball crosses outside the pylon -- it's still
a touchdown.
rob...@bestweb.net
> The goal line extends infinitely. If the runner contacts the endzone,
> it doesn't matter if the ball crosses outside the pylon -- it's still
> a touchdown.
Whether the runner "contacts" the end zone is of no significance.
Irishmafia
it's been on MNF and brought to the forefront through a challenge, you
may see a change in the game.
Instead of the runner trying to force the ball inside the pylon when
being chased down the sideline, you may see the runner literally
leaping as far as they can out of bounds trying to get across the goal
line.
Now this may prove to be a challenge to some officials. Not on the
scoring, but on the hitting. If a runner is going to be allowed to
advance by literally leaving the field of play, how strict will the
officials be on the defense hitting a runner once airborne pass the
sideline? This may be even more difficult on the roll-outs at the goal
line.
But this also begs for another question. If the goal line extands
infinitely, what is the purpose of having a pylons?
Rich and the Phantom Hook
wrote:
It extends infinitely, but the runner must touch with some part of his
body inside the end zone (inside the pylon) for that to apply. The
runner cannot simply dive three yards wide of the pylon to break the
goal line and expect a touchdown.
Matthew C. Aycock
So far there has not been a good explaination of what the rule actually
states. Being at the game I did not have the benefit of hearing the TV
announcers try and explain the ruling. Can someone please provide an
explaination that a fan can understand?
It would be most appreciated!
Irishmafia
>body inside the end zone (inside the pylon) for that to apply. The
>runner cannot simply dive three yards wide of the pylon to break the
>goal line and expect a touchdown.
If that is the case, the officials got the call wrong because no part
of Vick's body or ball touched any part of the end zone.
As explained to me by a football official, as long as the runner with
the ball has not touched any part of the field out of play, all advance
is legal. If the plane of the goal is infinite, that means once the
still live ball penetrates it, the official should rule it a TD.
Maybe this guy didn't explain it properly, just noting how it was
explained to me.
Mike
Harold Buck
"Irishmafia" <IRISH...@aol.com> wrote:
Given the explanation by the officials after replay, perhaps some body
part must still be over the field of play when the ball breaks the
infinite plane of the endzone.
I know a discussion about this topic came up here sometime in the past
year or so, but I'm not sure what to search for it under.
--Harold Buck
"Hubris always wins in the end. The Greeks taught us that."
-Homer J. Simpson
Larry D. Hols
> Given the explanation by the officials after replay, perhaps some body
> part must still be over the field of play when the ball breaks the
> infinite plane of the endzone.
>
> I know a discussion about this topic came up here sometime in the past
> year or so, but I'm not sure what to search for it under.
>
The explanation given was that some part of the body had to cross the
plane in-bounds. The pylon is in-bounds and Vick's hand crossed over the
pylon, thus meeting the requirement. The ball was OOB--the empty right
hand passed over the pylon.
Larry
Rich and the Phantom Hook
wrote:
Sorry, Mike, I was sloppy. He doesn't have to TOUCH in the endzone,
just some part of his body has to cross the PLANE of the endzone
between the pylons for the "infinite" goal line to have an effect.
rob...@bestweb.net
> Yep, this is a rule of which many in the game were not aware. Now,
> it's been on MNF and brought to the forefront through a challenge, you
> may see a change in the game.
> Instead of the runner trying to force the ball inside the pylon when
> being chased down the sideline, you may see the runner literally
> leaping as far as they can out of bounds trying to get across the goal
> line.
> Now this may prove to be a challenge to some officials. Not on the
> scoring, but on the hitting. If a runner is going to be allowed to
> advance by literally leaving the field of play, how strict will the
> officials be on the defense hitting a runner once airborne pass the
> sideline? This may be even more difficult on the roll-outs at the goal
> line.
Yes. The act of scoring a touchdown isn't quite the same as producing
a dead ball spot that happens to be at or beyond the goal line.
That is, when a ball in someone's possession crosses the sideline from
the playing area and the ball becomes dead by the runner's landing out
of bounds, the dead ball spot is where the ball crossed the vertical
plane of the sideline. Thus, trying to "reach" the ball out of bounds
beyond the line-to-gain marker, or even beyond the corner pylon by a
runner trying to avoid a safety, is futile. However, scoring a
touchdown (which also makes the ball dead) is an act that can be done
instantaneously by a ballcarrier; there's no need for any further
resolution of the play by the ball's becoming dead by other means. So
clearly the standards should be different re late hits out of bounds
near the defense's goal line.
> But this also begs for another question. If the goal line extands
> infinitely, what is the purpose of having a pylons?
As a visual aid, though not as a target. They also have the side
effect (probably not a good one) of making the ball dead if it or a
runner touches them.
If a field is well chalked, the pylons are superfluous. As short as
they are (even shorter than the flags that immediately preceded them),
they're not as visible to persons running on the field as are the much
taller flag posts still in use in soccer & rugby.
However, on a poorly chalked field, the official pylons (or
construction cones sometimes resorted to when pylons aren't available)
are valuable.
Robert
Scott Taylor
"Matthew C. Aycock" <ma...@mathcs.emory.edu> wrote in message
news:dnrtf6$jlb$1...@finch.mathcs.emory.edu...
> Rich and the Phantom Hook <n...@home.com> wrote:
> > On 15 Dec 2005 04:30:34 -0800, "Irishmafia" <IRISH...@aol.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > It extends infinitely, but the runner must touch with some part of his
> > body inside the end zone (inside the pylon) for that to apply. The
> > runner cannot simply dive three yards wide of the pylon to break the
> > goal line and expect a touchdown.
>
> So far there has not been a good explaination of what the rule actually
> states. Being at the game I did not have the benefit of hearing the TV
> announcers try and explain the ruling. Can someone please provide an
> explaination that a fan can understand?
>
> It would be most appreciated!
The goal line plane extends beyond the sideline ONLY when the runner
is touching the ground inbounds. Of course, it is the ball which must break
the goal line plane - extended or not - in order to score a TD.
The goal line does NOT extend beyond the sideline for an AIRBORNE runner.
In this situation, the ball must break the plane of the goal line BEFORE it
breaks the plane of the sideline. Diving across the sideline at the 1-yard line
won't score a TD, unless the runner holds the ball inside the pylon while flying
through the air.
The rule is the same for all three levels of play. Anyone who would like to lose
some beer on a wager, just pipe up, and I'll be all too happy to cite the rules
references. :^)
This is the reason we have pylons. That, and when a kick is rolling towards
the intersection of the goal line and the sideline.
-- Scott
Scott Taylor
"Larry D. Hols" <crkd...@spamnomore.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:crkdface-922A65...@newshost.allthenewsgroups.com...
No, the pylon is Out-Of-Bounds, *IN* the end zone, under all three codes. If a
kick touches the touches the pylon, the ball is dead and the result is a touchback.
If the ball breaks the plane of the goal line extended while VIck is touching the
ground inbounds, it is a TD. If Vick is airborne, the ball must break the plane
of the goal line before it breaks the plane of the sideline.
-- Scott
rob...@bestweb.net
> The goal line plane extends beyond the sideline ONLY when the runner
> is touching the ground inbounds. Of course, it is the ball which must break
> the goal line plane - extended or not - in order to score a TD.
> The goal line does NOT extend beyond the sideline for an AIRBORNE runner.
> In this situation, the ball must break the plane of the goal line BEFORE it
> breaks the plane of the sideline. Diving across the sideline at the 1-yard line
> won't score a TD, unless the runner holds the ball inside the pylon while flying
> through the air.
> The rule is the same for all three levels of play. Anyone who would like to lose
> some beer on a wager, just pipe up, and I'll be all too happy to cite the rules
> references. :^)
My rule references for NFL 2004 disagree.
11-2-1: "It is a touchdown: (a) when a runner [mistaken reference]
advances from the field of play and the ball touches the opponent's
goal line (plane)...."
3-27-1 "The Runner is the offensive player who is in possession of a
live ball...."
(Heh. They specify offensive player so in case of simultaneous gain of
possession by opposing players, if the player not on the team last in
possession touches out of bounds, they can play on.)
3-2-1: "The Ball...continues in play until the down ends [refs.
omitted]."
7-4-1: "An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended: (a)
when a runner is out of bounds...[or] (p) when the ball is out of
bounds."
3-20-1: "A player...is Out of Bounds when he touches: (a) a boundary
line; or (b) anything other than a player or a pylon on or outside a
boundary line."
3-20-2: "The Ball is Out of Bounds when: (a) the runner is out of
bounds; (b) while in player possession it touches a boundary line or
anything other than a player on or outside such line; or [loose ball
provision omitted]."
So until the offensive player in possession of it is out of bounds, or
until the ball itself in his possession touches the ground or some
obstacle out of bounds, the ball remains live. So tell me why if the
ball touches the plane of the goal line, and the player holding it
after jumping from in bounds hasn't touched the ground out of bounds,
it doesn't score a touchdown.
Robert
Bill
Scott Taylor wrote:
> No, the pylon is Out-Of-Bounds, *IN* the end zone, under all three codes. If a
> kick touches the touches the pylon, the ball is dead and the result is a touchback.
>
> If the ball breaks the plane of the goal line extended while VIck is touching the
> ground inbounds, it is a TD. If Vick is airborne, the ball must break the plane
> of the goal line before it breaks the plane of the sideline.
>
> -- Scott
So, Scott, are you saying the NFL rule is identical to NFHS? I
understand the high school rule, but over the years I have been
confused by various explanations that make the NFL rule different,
including this thread. Are there any differences?
Bill
Brett Frankenberger
Scott Taylor <sc...@cos.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>The goal line plane extends beyond the sideline ONLY when the runner
>is touching the ground inbounds. Of course, it is the ball which must break
>the goal line plane - extended or not - in order to score a TD.
>
>The goal line does NOT extend beyond the sideline for an AIRBORNE runner.
>In this situation, the ball must break the plane of the goal line BEFORE it
>breaks the plane of the sideline. Diving across the sideline at the 1-yard line
>won't score a TD, unless the runner holds the ball inside the pylon while flying
>through the air.
What would the ruling on the following play be:
An airborne runner, who is partially over inbound terrototy and
partially over out of bounds territory, with the ball completely over
out of bounds territory, flys across the goal line ...
(at this point, it's not a touchdown under your explanation above)
... and then, after completely crossing the goal line, lands, first
contacting the ground in the endzone (inbounds) with his foot ...
(is it a touchdown at this point, or does he have to be touching
the ground inbounds at the moment the ball breaks the plane? In
my example, he broke the plane with the ball out of bounds while
airborne, but then, touched the gound inbounds with the ball
already beyond the plane.)
... and then subsequently contacting the groun out of bounds with the
rest of his body.
-- Brett
Rick
"Scott Taylor" <sc...@cos.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1134958301.0c32d7640e...@roc.usenetexchange.com...
> If the ball breaks the plane of the goal line extended while
> plane of
> the sideline.
>
> -- Scott
>
runner (Vick) had possesion of the ball in his left hand which he broke the
plane and his right hand went over the pylon.
Rick
Scott Taylor
"Bill" <bbinf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134992312.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Scott Taylor wrote:
> > No, the pylon is Out-Of-Bounds, *IN* the end zone, under all three codes. If a
> > kick touches the touches the pylon, the ball is dead and the result is a touchback.
> >
> > If the ball breaks the plane of the goal line extended while VIck is touching the
> > ground inbounds, it is a TD. If Vick is airborne, the ball must break the plane
> > of the goal line before it breaks the plane of the sideline.
>
>
Regarding the airborne runner? Yes.
> I understand the high school rule, but over the years I have been
> confused by various explanations that make the NFL rule different,
> including this thread. Are there any differences?
No, not regarding the airborne runner, or the plane of the goal line extended.
Where have you heard these other "various explanations"? From Boomer Eaison? ;^)
-- Scott
Scott Taylor
"Rick" <Ebbs194...@charter.net> wrote in message news:HCMpf.4228$Vr....@fe06.lga...
>
> "Scott Taylor" <sc...@cos.nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:1134958301.0c32d7640e...@roc.usenetexchange.com...
> > If the ball breaks the plane of the goal line extended while
> > Vick is touching the ground inbounds, it is a TD. If Vick is airborne,
> > the > ball must break the plane of the goal line before it breaks the
> > plane of
> > the sideline.
> >
> >
> runner (Vick) had possesion of the ball in his left hand which he broke the
> plane and his right hand went over the pylon.
Was Vick airborne, or touching the ground inbounds when the ball broke
the goal line plane?
If the ball breaks the plane of the goal line inside the pylon, it doesn't matter
if Vick is airborne or not. Perhaps this is what the R was attempting to explain.
-- Scott
Greg Richmond
and one who is deemed to be driven by contact from the field of play?
Gregnews:43b6c5f4$0$10243$6d36...@roc.nntpserver.com...
Scott Taylor
"Greg Richmond" <g_r...@charter.net> wrote in message news:iZGwf.376$L56...@fe06.lga...
>
> Is there a differance between the rulings on an untouched airborne runner
> and one who is deemed to be driven by contact from the field of play?
No. Only for an airborne receiver.
NFL and Fed have the "force-out" rule. NCAA does not.
-- Scott