Gary Bettmen is the SAVIOR!
Marc Nathan
: All you Candaian people can flame me for saying an american saved the
: sport, but it is true. The owners wanted to end the season a long time
: ago. Gary Bettmen got them together, and HE alone, saved the game of
: hockey. If it wasnt for HE the players would never have been presented
: the chance to SAVE the game of hockey as well...
:
:
: I salute Mr Bettmen, it is ashame he will most likely quit soon after the
season starts, or right after the season ends.
Gary Bettman is a small dicked little weasel who did more to hurt the sport
in a eyar's time than John Zeigler could have if he lives to be 1000!
I think he is a shifty two faced bastard who did his best to rid the league
office of anyone who had any knowledge, love or passion for the sport.
Now he can sit back and look like a hero? To hell with him. I think the
players are greedy pigs, but Bettman....he's the premiere swine!
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I can get a job, I can pay the phone bill, I can cut the lawn, cut my hair,
cut out my cholestoral. I can work in a mine, I can work overtime, I can do
it all for you... ...but I don't want to!"
"Enid" - Barenaked Ladies (Sire) 1992
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mdna...@netcom.com: A division of My World, and try to find it, Inc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Masson
>
>: All you Candaian people can flame me for saying an american saved the
>: sport, but it is true. The owners wanted to end the season a long time
>: ago. Gary Bettmen got them together, and HE alone, saved the game of
>: hockey. If it wasnt for HE the players would never have been presented
>: the chance to SAVE the game of hockey as well...
>:
>: I salute Mr Bettmen, it is ashame he will most likely quit soon after the
> season starts, or right after the season ends.
I must agree. I don't think Bettman did it singlehandedly but he was the
most important part in saving this season. It has only become apparent
to me in the last weeks that the pressures he was facing were immense.
It is now clear that there was a very strong division amongst the owners
and that there is still one. This is not to mention the major differences
between players and owners. This was not a big game of chicken. Some people
had to give up things they wanted dearly to save the season (on all sides)
and it took Bettman's negotiating skills to arrive at that. He even had to
lose face on notable occasions to achieve his goal. Bettman did it right
and we have hockey today.
Although it is true that some owners must want him out of the top chair I doubt
he'll be thrown out of office at the end of the year. A person with his
negotiating skills will find a way. And we need him if the NHL wants to
carry out its plans in Europe and its increased mediatic presence in the US.
I think he's doing a fine job ! (for once I agree with Don Cherry!)
Salut,
Eric
--
=================================================================
Eric Masson - er...@finnegan.ee.mcgill.ca - FAX: 514 398 4470
=================================================================
Gerald Olchowy
>This is the problem with the NHL. The small market teams, especially the
>ones in Canada, cannot compete with the American teams (or even the Sabres),
>because of currency problems and the size/age of their rinks. Finacially
>these teams should not even be in the league, but.......
Calgary and Edmonton are both undertaking extensive renovations to
their arenas, and have first class modern facilities.
Vancouver, Ottawa, and Montreal are building new arenas.
Winnipeg and Quebec City are lagging in getting their arena
problems solved.
Gerald
Paul Robert Bartel
>ambrosia (ambr...@dorsai.org) wrote:
>
>: All you Candaian people can flame me for saying an american saved the
>: sport, but it is true. The owners wanted to end the season a long time
>: ago. Gary Bettmen got them together, and HE alone, saved the game of
>: hockey. If it wasnt for HE the players would never have been presented
>: the chance to SAVE the game of hockey as well...
>If Bettman and Goodenow had done their jobs RIGHT this lockout would have
>been over weeks/months ago!!! Why did they have to wait until January to
>start serious negotiations? They could've done all this in October,
>before the first deadline of the 15th! But nooooooo, drag it on out,
>piss off every fan in existance! They should both be canned to get some
>people who CARE about hockey in there before this CBA runs out!
>
Yeah, well this is what happens when we get two giant egos in
charge of running things. Let's not forget Cliff Fletcher, for
keeping some kind of talks going during the dark days of
December. I think he deserves some credit for that.
>: To all the owners who constantly voted NO, on all the proposals (Quebec,
>: Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Hartford), I hope you NEVER win the stanley
>: cup while your alive. It is abosolutely absurd that you wanted to end the
>: season because of your financial problems. Leave the damn league if you
>: cannot afford it, or move your team, or sell your team.
>I could really get going on your saying to 4 Canadian cities to move
>their teams, but instead I'll just say that Edmonton and Calgary have 6
>Cups between them, so there.
>
And, to add some fuel to your fire, Ian, - Calgary GM Doug
Risebrough stated in an interview tonight that Calgary did vote
in favour of the proposal that was accepted today. And, Peter
Puck of Edmonton was talking of reducing season ticket prices.
Something I think he wouldn't do if he wanted the season to end
because of "financial problems."
>Ian Merrithew - UNB Fredericton
-----
Paul Bartel <prba...@acs.ucalgary.ca> <*>
"Do you ever get down on your knees and thank God that you know me
and have access to my dementia?"
-George, _Seinfeld_.
-----
Mike D'Amico
From: ambrosia, ambr...@dorsai.org
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 18:17:14 GMT
In article <D296s...@dorsai.org> ambrosia,
ambr...@dorsai.org writes:
>
>To all the owners who constantly voted NO, on all the
proposals (Quebec,
>Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Hartford), I hope you NEVER
win the stanley
>cup while your alive. It is abosolutely absurd that you
wanted to end the
>season because of your financial problems. Leave the damn
league if you
>cannot afford it, or move your team, or sell your team.
>
Ottawa voted "YES" in both the final vote and the 14-12
original
vote. Get your facts right.
Mike D'Amico
BNR
Ottawa, Ontario
Michael P Bishop
SOAPBOX.COM 1.22 (c) Opinionated Software 1994
ANYLIZING THREAD "Gary Bettman is the SAVIOR!"
GENERATING D:\OPINION\bottomline.txt
Okay my bottom line on this thread (as if anyone cared). Unlike ambrosia
implies, I am not against Bettman because he is American. I think I'm a
typical Canadian (although I don't live there anymore) and I am NOT
biggoted against Bettman becuase of the country he's from. Give me a break.
I think Gary needs to learn a little more about both hockey and management.
Then perhaps he can do his job. The flames against Bettman are not due to
his citizenship, but rather his incompetence.
REMOVING SOAPBOX.COM FROM MEMORY
________________________________________________________
: __ ___ ___ :
: /__) / / / /__/ \ / :
: / \ /___/ /___ / \ / :
--------------------------------------------------------
: Mike "Rocky" Bishop - One AWESOME Hockey Player! :
: Arts & Sciences Freshman - Media Arts :
: The University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona :
: :
: DIRECT EMAIL TO: :
: :
: BIS...@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU :
: BIS...@GAS.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU :
--------------------------------------------------------
The views expressed by this user do not represent those
of the University of Arizona or KUAT Communications Group.
Gerald Olchowy
>In my pessimistic scenario, at least four Canadian teams will
>remain financially viable: Habs, Leafs, Canucks and Flames.
>I'll still hold out hope for the Jets, Oilers and Nordiques
>but there are a lot of league financial logistics that can
>be reformed *now* without crying about the "Tequila Effect"
>from the collapse of the Mexican Peso.
The Oilers are probably safe till the owners or players reeopen
the deal in three years since 1) their arena problem is solved
and their arena has been renovated (the Jets and Nordiques still
have arena problems) 2) the Oilers have a young team and the
rookie salary cap actually helps immediately...since they will
now be able to sign Ryan Smyth and Jason Bonsignore and Mats
Lindgren for less than they would have been able to last week...
even if they don't immediately fall under the cap...they know
that they must sign now rather than later.
The deal may be enough to bridge the difficult period as
pro teams sports rationalizes. If the Oilers can survive
the next five years, they I think they can survive long term,
and I think there may be enough if the promises of some
currency considerations come through.
Pocklington has lowered season ticket prices on 4000 tickets
as of yesterday (at the low end).
Gerald
Gerald Olchowy
>I agree. I think the league should try to save the small market teams.
>Although I doubt that many small market teams are losing money, it is
>necessary to share revenue in order for the league to continue to grow. I
>am quite surprise that Calgary voted NO on the previous (Tuesday, not Final)
>proposal, I think they are getting some revenue with full crowds in almost
>all hockey games. I hope that hockey can do without owners like Peter
>Pocklington, those who whine about how little money he has to invest into
>the game, constantly threatening to move the franchaise. I know the
>Pocklington wants the season to cancelled. In fact, he doesn't want to
>play any hockey, as long as it saves him money. What a bastard!!
It is not surprising that Calgary voted no...they are a small market,
albeit the strongest of the small markets in Canada, since they have
more corporate head offices than the other small markets and Canada.
More people that don't pay for their own tickets than other small
markets in Canada that is.
Funny the way pro team sports is organized...a franchise is stronger
when fewer of the people that attend the games pay for their own
tickets...
Gerald
Eric Masson
Paul Robert Bartel <prba...@acs.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
>Yeah, well this is what happens when we get two giant egos in
>charge of running things. Let's not forget Cliff Fletcher, for
>keeping some kind of talks going during the dark days of
>December. I think he deserves some credit for that.
Please. Fletcher would have accepted any deal from day 1. I would
think his views did more to divide the owners than anything else.
Hindsight tells us that this deal was one that would have to be
signed on the ultimate deadline because of the overwhelming
differences. Even with the deal done we still sense some
displeasure from all parties involved.
Ron Meleshko
: In my pessimistic scenario, at least four Canadian teams will
: remain financially viable: Habs, Leafs, Canucks and Flames.
: I'll still hold out hope for the Jets, Oilers and Nordiques
: but there are a lot of league financial logistics that can
: be reformed *now* without crying about the "Tequila Effect"
: from the collapse of the Mexican Peso.
I would not place the viability of the Flmaes above the Oilers.
Both are questionable. The Flames do have a better corporate
base but from past performance the Calgary fan is more fickle than
the Edmonton fan. Only time will tell.
-Ron Meleshko
-Univesity of Alberta
Ron Meleshko
: In article <3f1ejc$s...@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca> r...@biochem.ualberta.ca (Ron Meleshko) writes:
: I agree. I think the league should try to save the small market teams.
: Although I doubt that many small market teams are losing money, it is
: necessary to share revenue in order for the league to continue to grow. I
: am quite surprise that Calgary voted NO on the previous (Tuesday, not Final)
: proposal, I think they are getting some revenue with full crowds in almost
: all hockey games. I hope that hockey can do without owners like Peter
: Pocklington, those who whine about how little money he has to invest into
: the game, constantly threatening to move the franchaise. I know the
: Pocklington wants the season to cancelled. In fact, he doesn't want to
: play any hockey, as long as it saves him money. What a bastard!!
:
It's not quite that simple. Sure there is revenue from the crowds
in Calgary, but ticket prices here in Alberta (Flames and Oilers)
are considerably lower than what you will find in other markets
such as NY and LA. If you increased ticket prices to those
levels here, attendence would drop. Other revenues (such as TV)
just do not come close to what you can find elsewhere. Prior
to the salary escalation of recent years, ticket revenue could
support a team. That is no longer true; you need other revenues
(or else very expensive tickets coupled with corporate boxes).
I think you are overly harsh on Pocklington (gawd, I hate saying
this, but...) He is simply a very sharp businessman who, in my
opinion, is very good at using other people's money in his
dealings (ie, investors). If you really want to blame him
for trouble in the NHL, then let's start talking about a certain
deal that he made with Bruce McNall back in the late 80's.
-Ron Meleshko
-University of Alberta
Ron Meleshko
: In article <3f1ejc$s...@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
: Ron Meleshko <r...@biochem.ualberta.ca> wrote:
: >If you want to save the small market franchises, then you need some
: >control on salaries. Without this places like Edmonton, Calgary, et al
: Or revenue sharing. I am not sure why this obvious solution is not considered
: to be viable by more people who are supposedly out to support small market
: teams.
Just for the record, I state two sentences later that I hope the owners
now do more than pay lip service to the concept of revenue sharing.
Please, don't shoot from the hip. Take careful aim instead. :-)
Cheers.
-Ron
P. Allen Larsen
mdna...@netcom.com (Marc Nathan) writes:
>
>I think he [Bettman] is a shifty two faced bastard who did his best to rid
>sport.
You don't know much about Brian Burke do you?
Al.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. Allen Larsen MPR TELTECH LTD.
--------------- 8999 Nelson Way Tiger says there *will* be a season!
lar...@mpr.ca Burnaby, BC Are *you* going to argue with him?
(604) 293-5195 CANADA V5A 4B5
Barry Pearce
>
> To all the owners who constantly voted NO, on all the proposals (Quebec,
> Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Hartford), I hope you NEVER win the stanley
> cup while your alive. It is abosolutely absurd that you wanted to end the
> season because of your financial problems. Leave the damn league if you
> cannot afford it, or move your team, or sell your team.
>
The Flames owners were middle of the road throughout this whole fiasco.
They were never considered Hawks. It is soooo convenient that you fail
to mention Chicago or Boston or any of the other American based Hawks.
I guess Sinden and Wirtz were willing to bend for the Fans sake, right?
Gimme a break!
--
Barry R. Pearce | NHL: Flames | NBA: Celtics | BP's opinions are
Pearce...@pcp.ca | CFL: Sask. RR | NWC: DW #17 | not necessarily the
c00...@pcp.ca | MLB: Expos | PGA: The Shark | opinions of Pan-Can
ba...@dcs-systems.com | NFL: Chargers | RHI: Radz | or of DCS-Systems.
Mark Kerzner
In a previous posting, ambrosia (ambr...@dorsai.org) writes:
> All you Candaian people can flame me for saying an american saved the
> sport, but it is true. The owners wanted to end the season a long time
> ago. Gary Bettmen got them together, and HE alone, saved the game of
> hockey. If it wasnt for HE the players would never have been presented
> the chance to SAVE the game of hockey as well...
>
Interestingly, when Bettman was all beaten up by the owners in Tuesday's
first conference call, he had to regroup, set a new strategy in the second
conference call and then seek out an allie in the unlikely Goodenow. He
knew that the owners were not going to give anymore and he had to convince
Goodenow to see it that way or he would lose the entire season to a few
hardline owners.
>
> I salute Mr Bettmen, it is ashame he will most likely quit soon after the
> season starts, or right after the season ends.
>
> I salute the plays for giving up so much, it just proves they wanted to
> play more then the owners did.
>
> To all the owners who constantly voted NO, on all the proposals (Quebec,
> Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Hartford), I hope you NEVER win the stanley
> cup while your alive. It is abosolutely absurd that you wanted to end the
> season because of your financial problems. Leave the damn league if you
> cannot afford it, or move your team, or sell your team.
>
Please don't include Ottawa in this group. During the 1st conference call
on Tuesday when the owners rejected the 20 hour bargaining agreement, the
Senators were one of the twelve teams who voted in favour of the deal that
Bettman negotiated.
You give the impression that Ottawa is a small market team that deserves
to die. This topic was discussed in great detail in this group last year.
Ottawa is no small market team, with a population of 1 million people and
another 500,000 people within a 1 hour drive of the city, there are more
than enough people to support this team. Ottawa has the highest per capita
income in the whole country and the largest disposable income in Canada.
If you were to compare Ottawa with a larger US city, say St. Louis, even
though St. Louis may have more people than Ottawa, Ottawa definitely has
more hockey fans. Ottawa has consistently supplied the NHL with many
quality hockey players that have developed their skills in the huge minor
hockey program here.
Ottawa will contend in a few more years. The fans here would like to see a
winner immediately but we are educated fans and we recognize the need to
build through the draft. Ottawa fans will be patient and it will pay off soon.
--
******************** :::::::::::::::::::::
* Mark Kerzner * : OTTAWA SENATORS :
* "KERZ" * : LOUDEST FAN :
******************** :::::::::::::::::::::
Marc Nathan
: In article <mdnathanD...@netcom.com>
: >
: >I think he [Bettman] is a shifty two faced bastard who did his best to rid
: >the league office of anyone who had any knowledge, love or passion for the
: >sport.
: You don't know much about Brian Burke do you?
Actually I do, but he was not one of the people EXISTING in the NHL office at
the time of Bettman's arrival. You don't know alot about Stu Hackel, Mike
Berger, John Halligan, Jim Gregory and Brian O'Neill do you? The first
three are gone, and the last two have been shifted to positions with no
authority...and they have been in the league for 30 years or so and have
been shunted aside in favor of Burke, who granted, is a hockey guy, but
aside from him, just a bunch of non-hockey people. And, in fact, the position
Burke filled was a position that Bettman had interviewed tons of people
(McPhee, Davidson, Sather and a cast of others) before having to settle
on Burke after everyone else turned him down because they did not want to
work FOR a man with no real vested interest in the sport. Burke was
desperate to leave his situation, and when he became the 6th or 7th choice,
he grabbed it! Whoopee! Hackel, Berger and Halligan were true professionals
who even the most ardent fans of the game may not have known, but believe
me, their dedication and professionalism far outweigh needledick's hiring
of one Brian Burke!
Bill Currie
>
>ambrosia (ambr...@dorsai.org) wrote:
>
>Stuff deleted
>:
>: To all the owners who constantly voted NO, on all the proposals (Quebec,
>: cup while your alive. It is abosolutely absurd that you wanted to end the
>: season because of your financial problems. Leave the damn league if you
>: cannot afford it, or move your team, or sell your team.
>: -ambrosia
>
>What an arrogant attitude!
>
>If you want to save the small market franchises, then you need some
>control on salaries. Without this places like Edmonton, Calgary, et al
>you have a large market. Hopefully, the owners will now pay more
>than lip service to the concept of revenue sharing. If not, the
>formerly mentioned teams will either be moving or will become farm
>teams for the other teams. If you think this is good, then great for
>you...enjoy your $100 a pop tickets in NY.
>
>I don't think this is good.
>
>-Ron
>
Unfortunately, it appears that Gary Bettman has only put the league's
problems aside for a few years again. The fact is that salaries are NOT
tied to revenues, so teams like New York and L.A. will continue to spend
like drunken sailors. This can only continue to weaken the smaller
markets.
The owners didn't get the big things they wanted, so my guess is
that Gary Bettman won't be in charge of the NHL after this season.
It doesn't matter much anyway...I haven't been able to afford a
Canucks ticket for 2 years now :-{ .
Bill Currie
bil...@iceonline.com
*************************************************************************
Bill Currie's weekly CiTR Sports Feature:
http://www.iceonline.com/home/billc4/bill.html
*************************************************************************
Andy
: What would the NHL be without Canadian teams, considering most of the
: players are from Canada? And which areas deserve a team more,
: Winnipeg/Edmonton/Calgary, or Florids/Texas/LA? Certainly the Canadian
: cities do considering the importance of hockey there.
: Solutions? One who be the sharing of $$, but I doubt the owners of the
: Blues, Rangers, Flyers, ect... will be willing to fork over their extra
: money, they'd rather spend it on the team (look at the Blues payroll).
Hopefully, if the FOX deal works out well, increased TV revenue could
help solve this problem.
--
==============================================================================
The opinions expressed are those of the individual posting. Comments,
criticisms and lawsuits should be addressed to 3a...@qlink.queensu.ca.
Queen's University, its departments and employees have no legal responsibility
for the opinions expressed above. Mail is welcome.
Andy
: ambrosia (ambr...@dorsai.org) wrote:
: Stuff deleted
: :
: : To all the owners who constantly voted NO, on all the proposals (Quebec,
: : Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Hartford), I hope you NEVER win the stanley
: : cup while your alive. It is abosolutely absurd that you wanted to end the
: : season because of your financial problems. Leave the damn league if you
: : cannot afford it, or move your team, or sell your team.
Actually, Ottawa voted yes on all the proposals.
: What an arrogant attitude!
: If you want to save the small market franchises, then you need some
: control on salaries. Without this places like Edmonton, Calgary, et al
: cannot hope to compete with places like Detroit, New York... where
: you have a large market. Hopefully, the owners will now pay more
: than lip service to the concept of revenue sharing. If not, the
: formerly mentioned teams will either be moving or will become farm
: teams for the other teams. If you think this is good, then great for
: you...enjoy your $100 a pop tickets in NY.
: I don't think this is good.
: -Ron
Nelson Lu
Michael P Bishop <bis...@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu> wrote:
>I think Gary [Bettman] needs to learn a little more about both hockey and management.
>Then perhaps he can do his job. The flames against Bettman are not due to
>his citizenship, but rather his incompetence.
So, please tell me, how has he been incompetent?
===============================================================================
GO EDMONTON OILERS! Go for playoffs! Glen Sather for Adams!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (n...@cs.stanford.edu)
rec.sport.hockey contact for the San Jose Sharks
Nelson Lu
Mark Kerzner <ao...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>You ["ambrosia"?] give the impression that Ottawa is a small market team that deserves
>to die. This topic was discussed in great detail in this group last year.
The reason why the Senators deserve to die is not because Ottawa is a small
market or that the people of Ottawa don't support hockey -- it's because the
Senators' management (thus far) has been brain dead.
I would rejoice the moment that a more knowledgable management takes over,
but otherwise, I don't mind seeing the team die.
>Ottawa will contend in a few more years. The fans here would like to see a
>winner immediately but we are educated fans and we recognize the need to
>build through the draft. Ottawa fans will be patient and it will pay off soon.
They have an impressive collection of centers, and in the future, a Labbe/
Madelay combination in the nets may look good, but where is the defense?
Mike Perkins
>In article <mdnathanD...@netcom.com>, mdna...@netcom.com (Marc Nathan)
writes:
>|> ambrosia (ambr...@dorsai.org) wrote:
>|>
>|> : All you Candaian people can flame me for saying an american saved the
>|> : sport, but it is true. The owners wanted to end the season a long time
>|> : ago. Gary Bettmen got them together, and HE alone, saved the game of
>|> : hockey. If it wasnt for HE the players would never have been presented
>|> : the chance to SAVE the game of hockey as well...
>|> :
>|> :
>|> : I salute Mr Bettmen, it is ashame he will most likely quit soon after the
>|> season starts, or right after the season ends.
>|>
>|> Gary Bettman is a small dicked little weasel who did more to hurt the sport
>|> in a eyar's time than John Zeigler could have if he lives to be 1000!
>|>
>|> I think he is a shifty two faced bastard who did his best to rid the league
>|> office of anyone who had any knowledge, love or passion for the sport.
>|>
>|> Now he can sit back and look like a hero? To hell with him. I think the
>|> players are greedy pigs, but Bettman....he's the premiere swine!
>
>owners back to the table when they wanted to junk the season and also
>directly responsible for negotiating the deal. On the flip side, he
>is also probably responsible for the lockout in the first place.
>
I disagree that Bettman was responsible for the lockout. He did
what he had to do in order to Goodenow to the bargaining table.
For months Goodenow wouldn't talk to Bettman about a new
CBA because the players had a great CBA because they went on
strike during the middle of the season last time. That forced the
owners to give them more than they should have the last time
around. Goodenow knew that the players next deal wasn't going
to be as good as the deal that he had to he was stalling for as long
as he could. Bettman simply said that you are not going to stall
any longer and we will not play any longer under the old CBA.
As least that's my opinion
Mike Perkins
AT&T Global Information Solutions - Dayton, OH
Sorry, no cool .sig
Gary L. Dare
: If you were to compare Ottawa with a larger US city, say St. Louis,
: even though St. Louis may have more people than Ottawa, Ottawa
: definitely has more hockey fans.
Agreed, Mark, and in my previous analogy while metro Chicago has a
population slightly larger than the entire province of Quebec, it
probably has only as many hockey fans as in Montreal out of that
8.5 Million ... however, TV doesn't see it that way ... for ads,
SportsChannel Chicago is received by some 3 Million homes ... no
matter whether they're watching or not. Funny how they measure
things sometimes. Despite that for a hockey match, a company
will get as many people seeing it in Winnipeg as in Chicago if
it's a hockey game (i.e., actually watching), "reach" matters.
)-;
gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare g...@prairienet.org
"Support NAFTA - Eat Mexican!" uk...@freenet.victoria.bc.ca
(El Teddy's ad, NYC) (formerly g...@columbia.edu)
Peter Bailey
>: All you Candaian people can flame me for saying an american saved the
>: sport, but it is true. The owners wanted to end the season a long time
>: ago. Gary Bettmen got them together, and HE alone, saved the game of
>: hockey. If it wasnt for HE the players would never have been presented
>: the chance to SAVE the game of hockey as well...
Gary Bettman the Savior of Hockey?!? He's still trying to figure out how
to open a puck.
In a small way, the lockout has helped divert Gary's attention away from
his ultimate goal, turning the NHL into the NBA. I think his next move is to
suspend the nets ten feet above the ice, and have the players slam-dunk the
pucks in ....
Peter Bailey "Those who do not learn from the past
Moncton, NB, Canada are doomed to repeat it" - George Santayana
nstn...@fox.nstn.ca
Gerald Olchowy
>===============================================================================
>GO EDMONTON OILERS! Go for playoffs! Glen Sather for Adams!
>===============================================================================
>Nelson Lu (n...@cs.stanford.edu)
>rec.sport.hockey contact for the San Jose Sharks
Nelson, I consider it a compliment that you consider the Oilers
worthy of your curse...however, Glen Sather is not eligible for
the Adams, as George Burnett is the coach of the Oilers.
Gerald
Gerald Olchowy
>Yeah, well this is what happens when we get two giant egos in
>charge of running things. Let's not forget Cliff Fletcher, for
>keeping some kind of talks going during the dark days of
>December. I think he deserves some credit for that.
You mean the Cliff Fletcher that almost caused the talks to break
down by having Alan Eagleson as an honored guest at his home over
Christmas...which forced Bettman to ban Fletcher from further
negotiations to calm the wrath of the players.
Gerald
Michael P Bishop
Nelson Lu <n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>So, please tell me, how has he been incompetent?
The handling of the whole lockout deal could have been handled diffrently.
Bettman needed to get tough with both sides from the start instead of being
IMHO (key word here) a little whimp.
Gary L. Dare
: Agreed here. Especially considering the fact that teams in cities like
: New York and Philly are hurt by the mere presence of teams in places like
: Winnipeg (I'd assume that if two identical teams were located in Winnipeg
: and Minnesota, the Minnesota team would be a better road draw, due simply
: to recognition), I can't see it happening.
I used to live in New York (Manhattan) and Rangers/Devils/Islanders
fans were just as indifferent to the North Stars for the same reason
they were indifferent to the Jets: the teams weren't seen as winners.
It was nearly impossible to get tickets for the Flames and Oilers,
even a couple of years after their last Cups. Too bad that there
aren't more games shown up north between U.S.-based teams, so that
folks can see how few seats are filled at MSG for the Whalers, Ducks
and Sharks, etc.
Gary L. Dare
: olc...@falun.cs.ualberta.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
: >Calgary and Edmonton are both undertaking extensive renovations to
: >their arenas, and have first class modern facilities.
: And, they now control their respective arenas, meaning they now
: get concession and parking revenues that they did not have before.
Good news, because that opens up new income streams that Canadian
teams otherwise lack. Local broadcast of road games, except for
the Flames (who get good local TV from having high attendance),
is still a problem for the rest of the teams. The Habs are well
covered, and Nordique road games wouldn't be that much additional
intrusion on their airwaves. 30 Jets road games on Manitoba and
Saskatchewan television can make a huge difference, as much as
the new downtown arena will.
Nelson Lu
Gerald Olchowy <olc...@gsb004.cs.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>Nelson, I consider it a compliment that you consider the Oilers
>worthy of your curse...however, Glen Sather is not eligible for
>the Adams, as George Burnett is the coach of the Oilers.
Oh, OK. Sorry about that.
===============================================================================
GO EDMONTON OILERS! Go for playoffs! George Burnett for Adams!
Nelson Lu
>Nelson Lu <n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
>>So, please tell me, how has he been incompetent?
>
>The handling of the whole lockout deal could have been handled diffrently.
>Bettman needed to get tough with both sides from the start instead of being
>IMHO (key word here) a little whimp.
*Both* sides? Excuse me, but Bettman is an employee of the owners and is
only responsible to them. He can't force them to do anything, nor should he.
There is no benefit in him trying to give the players any benefit, since that
was not what he was hired for; the commissioner's job is a creation of the
owners for their benefit. (The last sports commissioner who tried to do
anything that can be considered "tough" on the owners was Fay Vincent (baseball
commissioner) and he was forced out almost immediately.)
===============================================================================
GO EDMONTON OILERS! Go for playoffs! George Burnett for Adams!
Mike D'Amico
From: Nelson Lu, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Date: 12 Jan 1995 20:11:54 GMT
>The reason why the Senators deserve to die is not because
Ottawa is a small
>market or that the people of Ottawa don't support hockey
-- it's because the
>Senators' management (thus far) has been brain dead.
>I would rejoice the moment that a more knowledgable
management takes over,
>but otherwise, I don't mind seeing the team die.
You are not impressed with a team's management so you
would like to
see the franchise die? This is a suprisingly unintelligent
posting from you!
I agree there have been some questionable decisions and
embarassing
situations in the short history of the franchise but
wishing that the team
would fold is a bit of an emotional response. Did you hope
the Montreal
Canadiens would fold when they traded Chris Chelios for
Denis Savard?
>They have an impressive collection of centers, and in the
future, a Labbe/
>Madelay combination in the nets may look good, but where
is the defense?
There are actually a couple of good defensive prospects.
The top one is
Stan Neckar, the 2nd round pick in lasts years draft. He
was very impressive
in pre-season at age 19, and I think he will be a star.
Radim Bicanek, the
2nd round pick from the year before is also a top prospect
who had made
the team during training camp. You are right however that
the current cast
(Paek, Hill, Dalquist, Shaw, Vial...) are mainly
journeyman, other than maybe
Norm Maciver who always seems to be injured.
Mike D'Amico
BNR
Ottawa, Ontario
Adrian Earle
>prba...@acs.ucalgary.ca (Paul Robert Bartel) writes:
>
>>Yeah, well this is what happens when we get two giant egos in
>You mean the Cliff Fletcher that almost caused the talks to break
>down by having Alan Eagleson as an honored guest at his home over
>Christmas...which forced Bettman to ban Fletcher from further
>negotiations to calm the wrath of the players.
I think you mean the Cliff Fletcher who talked to the devil (Eagleson)
and got sufficient dirt on Wirtz and Sinden to force them to go
along with a deal. The old boys of the NHL are dirty rotten bastards
and Eagleson knows a lot about their past.
Adrian
Bryon Thur
Peter Bailey <OM...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote:
>
>>: All you Candaian people can flame me for saying an american saved the
>>: sport, but it is true. The owners wanted to end the season a long time
>>: ago. Gary Bettmen got them together, and HE alone, saved the game of
>>: hockey. If it wasnt for HE the players would never have been presented
>>: the chance to SAVE the game of hockey as well...
>
> Gary Bettman the Savior of Hockey?!? He's still trying to figure out how
>to open a puck.
> In a small way, the lockout has helped divert Gary's attention away from
>his ultimate goal, turning the NHL into the NBA. I think his next move is to
>suspend the nets ten feet above the ice, and have the players slam-dunk the
>pucks in ....
>
>
hockey, I do think that he is a great thing for the league in general. For
the millionth time, it makes no difference that he doesn't understand why
we shoot a puck 100 mph at a guy dressed in padding guarding a net (GOD
I LOVE THIS GAME!!), for that isn't his job. He was hired by the owners to
represent them, not the game, and not the players. He is there to represent
the interests of The Montreal Canadiens and the Washington Capitals equally,
not to fret over the integrity of the game. He was, quite simply, hired to
get the owners more money, and so far it has worked.
Getting more money for the league also means getting more exposure for the
NHL, and he has done this: he got a pretty good national tv contract and he
got the players into the next Olympic games. Not bad.
Even though he resembles a weasel, and doesn't understand the tradition
involved in the game, he will allow the league to move ahead faster than it
was moving without him.
Bryon Thur
Barry Pearce
What do you base this assumption on? After five consecutive playoff
losses, we only saw a MARGINAL decrease in attendance last year. Can
the same be said for the Oilers fans after the loss of the Great one,
how about after the loss of Messier. Take a look in your own backyard
before you start calling the Calgary fans "Fickle".
As for being more viable, we have a huge season ticket base, and we are soon
to have another whole row of suites. A small minority of fickle fans makes
very little impact when the vast majority of the high end revenue is brought
in by corporations with suites and blocks of season tickets. If your boss
offers you a seat ten rows up on the blue line, are you going to decline it
because you are unhappy with the team? Even if you do the guy in the next
office will take it, and it is already payed for anyway!
I would be concerned if entire Corporations stop buying, but it isn't going to
happen. You may not want to admit it, but the Flames ARE more viable then the
Oilers. I don't want to see either team go, but to label one fan as more fickle
then another is pure hogwash.
BP
BP
Tom Huot
: In article <3f1ejc$s...@quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
: Ron Meleshko <r...@biochem.ualberta.ca> wrote:
: >If you want to save the small market franchises, then you need some
: >control on salaries. Without this places like Edmonton, Calgary, et al
The control on salaries is entirely up to the owners. If they don't
want to pay the big salaries, they don't have to. This should be
obvious. If they are stupid enough to spend too much on salaries,
and then go broke, that is also their problem. Pro sports are a
form of entertainment, not a religion or some sort of fundamental
right of the people. These same conditions exist in all of the other
pro sports.
: Or revenue sharing. I am not sure why this obvious solution is not considered
: to be viable by more people who are supposedly out to support small market
: teams.
Revenue sharing might seem like a good idea to you, the fan, but if
you were an owner whose money was on the line, you might feel
different about it. As unpleasant as this might seem, small market
teams are not necessary to the survival of the league. BTW, I live in
what might be considered a fairly "small market", and that is
Pittsburgh. They seem to be doing pretty much ok.
: A salary limit, even a salary cap, will not help small market franchises
: anywhere as much as revenue sharing would. With a salary cap, everyone's
: spending will be capped, but this also means that the large market franchises
: will simply become more profitable.
That is entirely up to the league. It is their money. Since we are
"customers", we can either take it or leave it. I think that is also
quite obvious. Personally I refuse to pay the high ticket prices, but
I will watch the game on free TV. If for some reason or other it does
become worth buying a ticket to me, I will.
I think this financial/labor ping pong is going to go on for a long
time so for those of you who seem to be obsessed by it, you had better
get used to it. Find something else to do while they duke it out. You
might find there are some more interesting things in life than pro
sports.
--
Tom Huot
j...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
: All you Candaian people can flame me for saying an american saved the
: sport, but it is true. The owners wanted to end the season a long time
: ago. Gary Bettmen got them together, and HE alone, saved the game of
: hockey. If it wasnt for HE the players would never have been presented
: the chance to SAVE the game of hockey as well...
:
:
: I salute Mr Bettmen, it is ashame he will most likely quit soon after the
: season starts, or right after the season ends.
:
: I salute the plays for giving up so much, it just proves they wanted to
: play more then the owners did.
:
: To all the owners who constantly voted NO, on all the proposals (Quebec,
: Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Hartford), I hope you NEVER win the stanley
: cup while your alive. It is abosolutely absurd that you wanted to end the
: season because of your financial problems. Leave the damn league if you
: cannot afford it, or move your team, or sell your team: --
You have a point there ... but I would really have hated to see the NHL
go the route of baseball and their ridiculous contracts.
jon
Bob Fedun
<about the Flames being more viable than the Oilers>
> As for being more viable, we have a huge season ticket base, and we are soon
> to have another whole row of suites. A small minority of fickle fans makes
> very little impact when the vast majority of the high end revenue is brought
> in by corporations with suites and blocks of season tickets. If your boss
> offers you a seat ten rows up on the blue line, are you going to decline it
> because you are unhappy with the team? Even if you do the guy in the next
> office will take it, and it is already payed for anyway!
Good point. One of our Edmonton papers reported that Pocklington's only sold
31 of 51 "luxury boxes" here. Given the growing economy of Calgary, and the
shrinking economy of Edmonton, I'd guess the Flames would last longer than
the Oilers.
Another major consideration is that Calgary is on *all* major airline routes,
while Edmontonians have to commute to Calgary to get to just about anywhere.
Visiting teams aren't forced to ride Air Canada or whoever - they can stick
with any big name company and get to Calgary with a lot less switching and
stopping.
Edmontonians have all the loyalty of Montrealers - we love our teams, win or tie.
Bob "fortunately, I cheer *only* for visiting teams" Fedun
Nelson Lu
Tom Huot <hu...@cray.com> wrote:
>Nelson Lu (n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>: Or revenue sharing. I am not sure why this obvious solution is not considered
>: to be viable by more people who are supposedly out to support small market
>: teams.
>
>Revenue sharing might seem like a good idea to you, the fan, but if
>you were an owner whose money was on the line, you might feel
>different about it. As unpleasant as this might seem, small market
>teams are not necessary to the survival of the league. BTW, I live in
>what might be considered a fairly "small market", and that is
>Pittsburgh. They seem to be doing pretty much ok.
It is true that small market teams are not necessary to the survival of the
league.
However, it may be in the owners' own interest to see small market teams
survive in their current markets, because if they cannot, either of two
things may happen (particularly since the NHL does not have an anti-trust
exemption):
1. The small market team may move into an area that would allow it to
compete with a current large market team. (See Devils, New Jersey.)
2. The small market team may move into a future expansion area, thus
cutting off potential expansion revenue. (See Stars, Dallas, although
the main reason there appears to be non-economic.)
But if anyone would benefit from having small market teams survive, it is
the owners and not the players who would benefit. Therefore, shouldn't they
pay for the price?
Nelson Lu
>I was under the impression that Gary's job was to look out for the best
>intrests of the LEAGUE. Letting this thing carry on so long was definetly
>NOT in the best intrest of the NHL. This could have been an AWESOME season,
>with baseball out of the picture and all. Again, IMHO, Bettman should have
>gotten tough, put his foot down, twisted arms and *NOT* allowed all the
>bullsh*t that has occured for the past few months happen.
As I wrote previously, the idea of an independent commissioner with the best
interest of the *sport* in mind is a myth. It hasn't been the case in MLB;
it hasn't been the case in NFL; it hasn't been (largely) the case in NBA;
and it certainly hasn't been the case in NHL.
Bettman's office was created by the owners. He is paid by the owners. He
represents owners in labor disputes. Therefore, there was no way that you
couldn't have expected him to be out only for the interest of the owners during
the dispute.
Cornboy
M{>{bis...@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu}
M{>C:\UTILS\> soapbox
M{>SOAPBOX.COM 1.22 (c) Opinionated Software 1994
M{>ANYLIZING THREAD "Gary Bettman is the SAVIOR!"
M{>GENERATING D:\OPINION\bottomline.txt
M{>Okay my bottom line on this thread (as if anyone cared). Unlike ambrosia
M{>implies, I am not against Bettman because he is American. I think I'm a
M{>typical Canadian (although I don't live there anymore) and I am NOT
M{>biggoted against Bettman becuase of the country he's from. Give me a break.
M{>I think Gary needs to learn a little more about both hockey and management.
M{>Then perhaps he can do his job. The flames against Bettman are not due to
M{>his citizenship, but rather his incompetence.
M{>REMOVING SOAPBOX.COM FROM MEMORY
M{>________________________________________________________
M{>: __ ___ ___ :
M{>: /__) / / / /__/ \ / :
M{>: / \ /___/ /___ / \ / :
M{>--------------------------------------------------------
M{>: Mike "Rocky" Bishop - One AWESOME Hockey Player! :
B{>: Arts & Sciences Freshman - Media Arts :
M{>: The University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona :
M{>: :
M{>: DIRECT EMAIL TO: :
M{>: :
M{>: BIS...@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU :
M[B: BIS...@GAS.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU :
M{>--------------------------------------------------------
M{>The views expressed by this user do not represent those
M{>of the University of Arizona or KUAT Communications Group.
M{>
I can't agree with you more . This could have all been avoidedor
stopped a long time before it started. Well I must say your opinion is
right on. Bettman sucks
Cornboy
If the owners of pro hockey temas are in it for the money then they are
in for a world of shit.. hockey teams will never make the money of other
pr teams in any sport. These owners have other things to get them money
not just the hockey team. This is not their livelihood. Cut the shit and
give the player the money if he is worth it. The are entertainers as
well as athletes. enough said ... LET'S PLAY HOCKEY
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ronald Matthews
>n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
Nelson's mistake is easily understandable. After all San Jose's equipment
manager makes more money than Burnett. Burnett is just another fall guy,
just another "reason" that the Oiler's won't make the playoffs. It certainly
couldn't have anything to do with the roster of amateurs that the evil shit
Sather/Pocklington has assembled.
--