Sakic & Rangers?
Paul Dalrymple
According to the Boston Herald, Joe Sakic and the NY Rangers have
agreed to terms. For now, the Rangers can sign Joe to an offer sheet,
which the Avalanche have the right to match. It's for a 3-year deal.
Aaron Price
: As someone so eloquently put it, five rowboats isn't worth a battleship.
: Hoping Colorado matches....
A poor analogy. Using that analogy Joe Sakic himself is merely a
"rowboat" as he was once a 1st round pick. Giving the Avs scouting and
team depth, I'd say let him go. Get the 1st rounders and use 10 mil of
that money to go after someone next year, or trade for someone now with
it.
Aaron Price www.shiningpath.com
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Douglas Kelly
M. Zaiem Beg wrote:
>
> Aaron Price <flas...@shore.net> wrote:
>
> : : As someone so eloquently put it, five rowboats isn't worth a battleship.
> : : Hoping Colorado matches....
>
> : A poor analogy. Using that analogy Joe Sakic himself is merely a
> : "rowboat" as he was once a 1st round pick. Giving the Avs scouting and
> : team depth, I'd say let him go. Get the 1st rounders and use 10 mil of
> : that money to go after someone next year, or trade for someone now with
> : it.
> the NHL. He's offensively spectacular and he's a leader.
>
> Five draft picks are unproven, and picks tend to bust.
> Sakic has grown from a rowboat to a battleship, whereas you may only get a
> destroyer or a cruiser from the other guys, and who knows who might sink.
>
This is true, and I tend to agree, but something that might tilt
the balance is that Colorado is already swimming in first rounders.
They already have 3 in 98, and I believe 2 more in 99. If they
get the 5 from the rangers, that's 13 first rounders in the next
5 years. (I'm assuming that they haven't traded away any from future
years, but I'm not sure) And that is a _lot_ of potential, both in terms
of what
they can draft and develop, and in terms of what they can trade
for. (okay, many will be relatively late in the first, so there are
probably
no Sakics or Forsebergs in there, but the Avs/Nords have historically
done
pretty well with draft choices)
However, the big concern for the Avalanche has to be that the deal
for the new arena is either just finalised or almost finalised, and
they have to remain a strong draw in the next couple years if they
are going to fill the arena. This means remaining a contender.
They already need to get tougher, and if Sakic goes, that will be
doubly true as they won't have the killer power play to keep people
away from Forseberg.
One possibility is that they might go after Modano, although giving
away 5 first rounders to a team in the same conference is maybe
too high a price to pay.
M. Zaiem Beg
NJDevilCup <njdev...@aol.com> wrote:
: In article <5scue4$c...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
: al...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (James Burrows) writes:
: >
: >
: >The offer (as reported here) is 21 million over 3 years. 15 million
: >upfront as a signing bonus and 2 million/year salary.
: >
: >I don't think Colorado will match, it's just too much up front.....
: >
: >
: You're right about the structure. I first thought no way would Colorado
: let him go, but that much up front is crazy. They're still young, and
: 5 1st round picks have got to be tempting to Lacroix. Considering
: where the Rangers may be in 5 years, it might be worth it to let
: Joe go.
But that's the last of the five. Where will the NYR be next year? And the
year after that? Probably still a top ten team. That's no good.
As someone so eloquently put it, five rowboats isn't worth a battleship.
Hoping Colorado matches....
--
-M. Zaiem Beg
zb...@holly.colostate.edu
NJDevilCup
>
>
>The offer (as reported here) is 21 million over 3 years. 15 million
>upfront as a signing bonus and 2 million/year salary.
>
>I don't think Colorado will match, it's just too much up front.....
>
>
You're right about the structure. I first thought no way would Colorado
let him go, but that much up front is crazy. They're still young, and
5 1st round picks have got to be tempting to Lacroix. Considering
where the Rangers may be in 5 years, it might be worth it to let
Joe go.
Kuch
Go Devils!
**************************************************************************
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Edwin Drantivy
In <5se12k$g...@fridge-nf0.shore.net> Aaron Price <flas...@shore.net>
writes:
>
>: This might be a little off the course set so far (more nautical
references, I
>: know), but if Colorado matches the Rangers offer (which they
absolutely
>: should), what about NY going after Kariya next? He's not yet signed
and is a
>: bit pissed off at the way the Mouse blew Wilson out.
>
>Wow, I wasn't aware of this. Why not. Kariya and Gretz would probably
turn
>out nicely, however I'd suspect Anaheim would match ANYTHING. They
don't
>need any more freakin' draft picks and Mickey has a ton of bucks up
his
>sleave. And Ovits understands the draw of star power..
>
>
>The Rag$ can't sign Kariya to an offer sheet because you can only sign
ONE restricted free agent to an offer sheet per year. They've chosen
Sakic.
Gerald Olchowy
In article <5sdkv7$1m...@holly.ColoState.EDU>, M. Zaiem Beg <zb...@holly.ColoState.EDU> writes:
|> Heh. I meant that Joe Sakic has proven himself to be an elite player in
|> the NHL. He's offensively spectacular and he's a leader.
|>
|> Five draft picks are unproven, and picks tend to bust.
|> Sakic has grown from a rowboat to a battleship, whereas you may only get a
|> destroyer or a cruiser from the other guys, and who knows who might sink.
|>
|> (Okay, this boat analogy is getting silly, but you know what I mean).
|>
The vast majority of players in the NHL were drafted!
Colorado still has a lot of battleships...not many teams can match
Forsberg and Deadmarsh and Yelle at center.
Lacroix should focus on getting the NEXT battleship...Lecavalier,
rather than on keeping Sakic.
Take the picks.
--
Gerald
olorin
On 8 Aug 1997 03:12:40 GMT, dra...@ix.netcom.com(Edwin Drantivy )
wrote:
>The Rag$ can't sign Kariya to an offer sheet because you can only sign
>ONE restricted free agent to an offer sheet per year. They've chosen
>Sakic.
are you sure about this? hmmm. didn't know about that. guess that
settles it..
olorin
olorin
On Sat, 09 Aug 1997 01:09:58 GMT, SoCal Dog <dogs...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>This might be a little off the course set so far (more nautical references, I
>know), but if Colorado matches the Rangers offer (which they absolutely
>should), what about NY going after Kariya next? He's not yet signed and is a
>bit pissed off at the way the Mouse blew Wilson out.
i don't see that happening. disney has tons of moolah and could match
anything that smith can put together. he went after sakic because he
knows that colorado is strapped financially. i could see smith go
after teams like ottawa, edmonton, tampa bay, etc. that don't have a
lot of money to spend.
olorin
Neal Bauer
From an article off yahoo:
An angry Lacroix, whose team has seven days to match the three-year
front-loaded offer, criticized the Rangers' strategy and suggested the
teams could have worked out a trade for Sakic.
"The strategy that the Rangers used ... that was a surprise to us," Lacroix
said. "There is a different way to do this. They could have called us and
tried to trade for him. They could have done this.
Funny thing is he also has stated that the Avs weren't surprised by the
offer. So which is is Lacroix?
Lacroix himself admitted that matching the offer will hurt the Avs. That's
an interesting strategy for NY to take. If the Avs match, you've just
helped hurt an opposing franchise. There are a couple other free agents
out there that they could do this with too. Another interesting scenario
would be Colorado letting Sakic go and pursuing Fedorov.
Neal
Daniel Hitomi
In article <5sdrla$n...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
SoCal Dog <dogs...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>This might be a little off the course set so far (more nautical references, I
>know), but if Colorado matches the Rangers offer (which they absolutely
>should), what about NY going after Kariya next? He's not yet signed and is a
>bit pissed off at the way the Mouse blew Wilson out.
The major difference with offering Joe Sakic a contract as opposed to
Kariya is that a team actually has a chance of obtaining Sakic. Everyone
knows the Avalanche are not making as much money as they anticipated in
their first two years in the league and the fact that they still have a
very good team without Sakic. Even with the loss of Sakic, they still
have the marquee players in Forsberg, Roy, and Ozolinsh.
Whereas in Kariya's case, if Disney were not to match an offer by
Avalanche they would revert to a pretty bad/boring team. Considering that
Anaheim probably has the one of the lowest payrolls in the league, I don't
think money is an issue.
--
Aaron Price
: This might be a little off the course set so far (more nautical references, I
: know), but if Colorado matches the Rangers offer (which they absolutely
: should), what about NY going after Kariya next? He's not yet signed and is a
: bit pissed off at the way the Mouse blew Wilson out.
Wow, I wasn't aware of this. Why not. Kariya and Gretz would probably turn
out nicely, however I'd suspect Anaheim would match ANYTHING. They don't
need any more freakin' draft picks and Mickey has a ton of bucks up his
sleave. And Ovits understands the draw of star power..
--
M. Zaiem Beg
SoCal Dog <dogs...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: This might be a little off the course set so far (more nautical references, I
: know), but if Colorado matches the Rangers offer (which they absolutely
: should), what about NY going after Kariya next? He's not yet signed and is a
: bit pissed off at the way the Mouse blew Wilson out.
But look who owns the Ducks: Disney. They are by no means in this horrible
financial funk Ascent is in. Disney could match the Rangers offer
multiplied by ten and not even blink.
olorin
On 8 Aug 1997 23:10:16 GMT, dra...@ix.netcom.com(Edwin Drantivy )
wrote:
>>are you sure about this? hmmm. didn't know about that. guess that
>>settles it..
>>I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure of this. Think about it. Why
>would RFA signings take place so late in the summer and NOT right when
>Free Agency starts?
you shouldn't make too much of that. teams may be waiting to see if
negotiations break down between the player and his team so that they
can step in at an opportune moment.
>Because you must plan a GREAT, IRRESISTIBLE offer
>and think out ALL your options because you get only one chance to make
>an offer. Otherwise, teams would be making ludicrous offers to 3 or 4
>RFA's on July 1 or as soon as possible.
not necessarily. teams would only go after FAs that they thought they
could realistically get. i mean realistically no one is going to go
after fedorov or kariya because their teams have loads of cash. more
than likely it will be teams with little cash flow that will be the
targets for a FA raid (ottawa, edmonton, etc.). i think that this has
more to do with the paucity of offers for RFAs than anything else.
most teams don't ever make offers to RFAs period.
olorin
olorin
Edward Webb
--WebTV-Mail-89106204-1233
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philadelphia flyers fans are rejoicing about sakic maybe going to the
rangers,what this means to us is the rangers are the team to beat,if you
beat new york now you will have an easy time with colorado
and with the rangers spending that much money on sakic it takes them out
of the eric lindros sweepstakes this time next year,in the meanwhile
sakic is only an addition that replaces an already good messier,its not
that big of a step up for the rangers,now if they could only sign
yzerman away from detroit when gretzky retires next april
--WebTV-Mail-89106204-1233
Content-Description: signature
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<html>
<embed src="http://www.wavbazaar.com/new/bark.wav">Sincerly yours,Edward D Webb
</html>
--WebTV-Mail-89106204-1233--
M. Zaiem Beg
Edward Webb <edwardo...@webtv.net> wrote:
: philadelphia flyers fans are rejoicing about sakic maybe going to the
: rangers,what this means to us is the rangers are the team to beat,if you
: beat new york now you will have an easy time with colorado
: and with the rangers spending that much money on sakic it takes them out
: of the eric lindros sweepstakes this time next year,in the meanwhile
: sakic is only an addition that replaces an already good messier,its not
: that big of a step up for the rangers,now if they could only sign
: yzerman away from detroit when gretzky retires next april
Sakic is good, but he's not even the best player playing for Colorado.
Colorado will still be a very strong team without him, especially if Alex
is right, where Forsberg and Ricci(keep him, Pierre...please?) will step
up and put up some really really fantastic numbers and keep winning.
Besides, Colorado did very well all those games when Sakic was injured.
Colorado's still a damn good team without Sakic.
Rwendelk
> "The strategy that the Rangers used ... that was a surprise to us,"
>Lacroix
> said. "There is a different way to do this. They could have called us
and
> tried to trade for him. They could have done this.
>
>
Seems that Neil Smith tried trading with this team several years ago.
Aubut and Page are gone now, but can you blame Neil for not wanting to
negotiate another big player deal with this franchise? And perhaps
revenge was on his mind !!?!!!
It is also interesting that Neil, Forsberg and Sakic all have rings while
Eric ends every season looking like a deer caught in the headlights.
Rwendelk
>philadelphia flyers fans are rejoicing about sakic maybe going to the
>rangers,what this means to us is the rangers are the team to beat,if you
>beat new york now you will have an easy time with colorado
I seem to remember a team from Detroit playing pretty competitive hockey
against the Flyers last year ...
>with the rangers spending that much money on sakic it takes them out
>of the eric lindros sweepstakes this time next year
The Flyers will resign Lindros. But will they be able to afford Leclair
and others afterwards ?
Neal Bauer
olorin (olo...@arda.west) wrote:
: On 8 Aug 1997 03:12:40 GMT, dra...@ix.netcom.com(Edwin Drantivy )
: wrote:
: >The Rag$ can't sign Kariya to an offer sheet because you can only sign
: >ONE restricted free agent to an offer sheet per year. They've chosen
: >Sakic.
: are you sure about this? hmmm. didn't know about that. guess that
: settles it..
I didn't realize it either! It certainly does make sense for the league
to have such a rule though.
Neal
bluel...@webtv.net
I hope New York knows what they're getting into. By signing Sakic they
may be signing away the next 10 years(after Sakic leaves). Oh yeah, I'm
a Ranger fan.
olorin
well, if they can get him for only 5 firsts, i'd say do it. the nhl
draft is a total crap shoot. in this sense it is unlike the nba and
nfl drafts (i don't know enough about mlb draft to compare). in these
leagues you really have a pretty good idea of what you're getting. in
the nhl draft, they're mostly 18 year olds and the 12th pick may just
as easily be as good as a 3rd overall pick. with the rangers likely to
be picking after the 20th selection with sakic in their lineup, i'd
say that the avalanche have very little chance of drafting an impact
player with any of their five firsts.
olorin
olorin
On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:11:00 GMT, Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca>
wrote:
>In article <33f4c94a...@news.direct.ca>,
> olo...@arda.west (olorin) wrote:
>
>>well, if they can get him for only 5 firsts, i'd say do it. the nhl
>>draft is a total crap shoot. in this sense it is unlike the nba and
>>nfl drafts (i don't know enough about mlb draft to compare). in these
>>leagues you really have a pretty good idea of what you're getting. in
>>the nhl draft, they're mostly 18 year olds and the 12th pick may just
>>as easily be as good as a 3rd overall pick. with the rangers likely to
>>be picking after the 20th selection with sakic in their lineup, i'd
>>say that the avalanche have very little chance of drafting an impact
>>player with any of their five firsts.
>
>The majority of first rounders end up playing in the NHL, so it isn't
>a total "crap shoot".
i doubt this. however, even if they do, it's only impact players that
truly count. fringe players are a dime a dozen.
olorin
>You're absoloutely right about draft order
>though. It would be a different story if the Rangers were plucking
>a top player from San Jose or Los Angeles. Five top-5 picks is a
>great deal more than five first rounders. Then again, if you look at
>each year's draft, one or two "top" NHLers emerge from the middle of the
>first to the end of the second round. (Jarome Iginla, Saku Koivu, Mike
>Peca, Keith Tkachuk, Geoff Sanderson and Doug Weight, in the last 7 years).
there's little guarantee that you'll get one of these though. that's
the point. for every impact player picked up late there's about 20-30
players who don't even make it.
Alex Goddard
>well, if they can get him for only 5 firsts, i'd say do it. the nhl
>draft is a total crap shoot. in this sense it is unlike the nba and
>nfl drafts (i don't know enough about mlb draft to compare). in these
>leagues you really have a pretty good idea of what you're getting. in
>the nhl draft, they're mostly 18 year olds and the 12th pick may just
>as easily be as good as a 3rd overall pick. with the rangers likely to
>be picking after the 20th selection with sakic in their lineup, i'd
>say that the avalanche have very little chance of drafting an impact
>player with any of their five firsts.
The majority of first rounders end up playing in the NHL, so it isn't
a total "crap shoot". You're absoloutely right about draft order
though. It would be a different story if the Rangers were plucking
a top player from San Jose or Los Angeles. Five top-5 picks is a
great deal more than five first rounders. Then again, if you look at
each year's draft, one or two "top" NHLers emerge from the middle of the
first to the end of the second round. (Jarome Iginla, Saku Koivu, Mike
Peca, Keith Tkachuk, Geoff Sanderson and Doug Weight, in the last 7 years).
Alex
Mike Eisler
In article <5sdgsr$h...@fridge-nf0.shore.net>,
Aaron Price <flas...@shore.net> wrote:
>
>: As someone so eloquently put it, five rowboats isn't worth a battleship.
>: Hoping Colorado matches....
>
> A poor analogy. Using that analogy Joe Sakic himself is merely a
>"rowboat" as he was once a 1st round pick. Giving the Avs scouting and
>team depth, I'd say let him go. Get the 1st rounders and use 10 mil of
>that money to go after someone next year, or trade for someone now with
>it.
Here's a thought.
Sign Kariya to an offer sheet. Then the Avs have no net loss in picks,
and get a younger battleship.
--
-Mike Eisler NFS group
NO_...@Eng.Sun.Com_SPAM SunSoft
remove the prefix 'NO_' and suffix '_SPAM' to reply.
"They got $30 million dollars to pay Mike Tyson, but tell me they don't have
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surely will." - Vikram Kulkarni, July 9, 1997, in comp.software.year-2000
Alex Goddard
In article <33f07da3...@news.direct.ca>,
olo...@arda.west (olorin) wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:11:00 GMT, Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca>
>wrote:
>>The majority of first rounders end up playing in the NHL, so it isn't
>>a total "crap shoot".
>
>i doubt this. however, even if they do, it's only impact players that
>truly count. fringe players are a dime a dozen.
A quick scan of the 1st round selections from 1984-1995 shows that more
than half the first rounders played at least some games in the NHL. 77
of the 270 I would call regulars. Still, with 5 first round picks, there's
an excellent chance they'll get a player of Sakic's ability. Sakic was
selected 15th overall.
>there's little guarantee that you'll get one of these though. that's
>the point. for every impact player picked up late there's about 20-30
>players who don't even make it.
"Guarantee" really has nothing to do with it. Fair value for Sakic is all
they deserve. Each first round appears to have at least 5 impact players.
With 5 shots at, say, 25-30 impact players, I think the Avalanche is getting
fair value for Sakic, that is if they don't match and they scout well.
Alex
Peter.Ståhl
> > olo...@arda.west (olorin) wrote:
> >
> >>well, if they can get him for only 5 firsts, i'd say do it. the nhl
> >>draft is a total crap shoot. in this sense it is unlike the nba and
> >>nfl drafts (i don't know enough about mlb draft to compare). in these
> >>leagues you really have a pretty good idea of what you're getting. in
> >>the nhl draft, they're mostly 18 year olds and the 12th pick may just
> >>as easily be as good as a 3rd overall pick. with the rangers likely to
> >>be picking after the 20th selection with sakic in their lineup, i'd
> >>say that the avalanche have very little chance of drafting an impact
> >>player with any of their five firsts.
> >
> >a total "crap shoot".
>
> i doubt this. however, even if they do, it's only impact players that
> truly count. fringe players are a dime a dozen.
>
>
> >You're absoloutely right about draft order
> >though. It would be a different story if the Rangers were plucking
> >a top player from San Jose or Los Angeles. Five top-5 picks is a
> >great deal more than five first rounders. Then again, if you look at
> >each year's draft, one or two "top" NHLers emerge from the middle of the
> >first to the end of the second round. (Jarome Iginla, Saku Koivu, Mike
> >Peca, Keith Tkachuk, Geoff Sanderson and Doug Weight, in the last 7 years).
>
> the point. for every impact player picked up late there's about 20-30
> players who don't even make it.
Yes but you have a better chance to get one with more picks.
Lazar
Mike Eisler wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Here's a thought.
>
> Sign Kariya to an offer sheet. Then the Avs have no net loss in picks,
> and get a younger battleship.
> --
> -Mike Eisler NFS group
I agree 100%, let Sakic go, use the money to keep Jones, Corbet,
Lacroix, and try to get Kariya. The avs have enough depth to cover the
loss of Sakic. I'm not sure what kind of offer it would take to get
Kariya, and disney has deep pockets though...
Lazar
olorin
On 12 Aug 1997 18:19:37 GMT, golc...@nortel.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
wrote:
>
>In article <33f07da3...@news.direct.ca>, olo...@arda.west (olorin) writes:
>|> >
>|> >The majority of first rounders end up playing in the NHL, so it isn't
>|> >a total "crap shoot".
>|>
>|> i doubt this. however, even if they do, it's only impact players that
>|> truly count. fringe players are a dime a dozen.
>|>
>
>Sakic was picked about 15th overall...Tkachuk went around 20th.
>Messier went in the 3rd round. Jari Kurri in the 4th round.
>Brodeur and Potvin in the second round.
for every impact player you name, i can name 20 that aren't. that's my
point. there's no guarantee.
olorin
Neal Bauer
Mike Eisler (NO_...@eng.sun.com_SPAM) wrote:
: Sign Kariya to an offer sheet. Then the Avs have no net loss in picks,
: and get a younger battleship.
The problem the Avs have is money. If they can afford Kariya, they can
afford Sakic.
Neal
Gerald Olchowy
In article <33f07da3...@news.direct.ca>, olo...@arda.west (olorin) writes:
|> >
|> >The majority of first rounders end up playing in the NHL, so it isn't
|> >a total "crap shoot".
|>
|> i doubt this. however, even if they do, it's only impact players that
|> truly count. fringe players are a dime a dozen.
|>
Sakic was picked about 15th overall...Tkachuk went around 20th.
Messier went in the 3rd round. Jari Kurri in the 4th round.
Brodeur and Potvin in the second round.
--
Gerald
Vlad the Impaler
Lazar <la...@spam-bites.csn.net> wrote:
>Mike Eisler wrote:
>>
>> Here's a thought.
>>
>> Sign Kariya to an offer sheet. Then the Avs have no net loss in picks,
>> and get a younger battleship.
>> --
>> -Mike Eisler NFS group
><snip sig>
>I agree 100%, let Sakic go, use the money to keep Jones, Corbet,
>Lacroix, and try to get Kariya. The avs have enough depth to cover the
>loss of Sakic. I'm not sure what kind of offer it would take to get
>Kariya, and disney has deep pockets though...
If the Avalanche can't afford Sakic, how could they afford Kariya, who
is bound to be asking in the $7-9 million/season range? Theoretically
it would a nice trade-off (Sakic for Kariya), but Disney can and will
match anything the Avs can offer. I think the 5 1st rounders are a
heaven-sent for the cash-strapped Avs - they get good compensation for
Sakic and save a lot of money, which means they will be able to keep
Kamensky, Ricci and a few others.
Thus Spake Vlad the Impaler
Alex Goddard
In article <5sq9fp$c...@bcarh8ab.bnr.ca>,
golc...@nortel.ca (Gerald Olchowy) wrote:
>Sakic was picked about 15th overall...Tkachuk went around 20th.
>Messier went in the 3rd round. Jari Kurri in the 4th round.
>Brodeur and Potvin in the second round.
Actually, Brodeur went in the first round, 20th overall.
Alex
M. Zaiem Beg
Neal Bauer <ne...@cnd.hp.com> wrote:
: Mike Eisler (NO_...@eng.sun.com_SPAM) wrote:
: : Sign Kariya to an offer sheet. Then the Avs have no net loss in picks,
: : and get a younger battleship.
: The problem the Avs have is money. If they can afford Kariya, they can
: afford Sakic.
And Disney has plenty of money.
Mike Eisler
In article <5sohll$s...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Neal Bauer <ne...@cnd.hp.com> wrote:
>Mike Eisler (NO_...@eng.sun.com_SPAM) wrote:
>: Sign Kariya to an offer sheet. Then the Avs have no net loss in picks,
>: and get a younger battleship.
>
>The problem the Avs have is money. If they can afford Kariya, they can
>afford Sakic.
Not really. Kariya is much younger. Higher chance of finding 14,000
suckers to pay $15 more a game with Kariya.
--
-Mike Eisler NFS group
Neal Bauer
It is being reported in Denver that the Avs are matching the offer to
Sakic.
Neal
Mike Eisler
In article <33f07da3...@news.direct.ca>, olorin <olo...@arda.west> wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:11:00 GMT, Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <33f4c94a...@news.direct.ca>,
>> olo...@arda.west (olorin) wrote:
>>
>>>well, if they can get him for only 5 firsts, i'd say do it. the nhl
>>>draft is a total crap shoot. in this sense it is unlike the nba and
>>>nfl drafts (i don't know enough about mlb draft to compare). in these
>>>leagues you really have a pretty good idea of what you're getting. in
>>>the nhl draft, they're mostly 18 year olds and the 12th pick may just
>>>as easily be as good as a 3rd overall pick. with the rangers likely to
>>>be picking after the 20th selection with sakic in their lineup, i'd
>>>say that the avalanche have very little chance of drafting an impact
>>>player with any of their five firsts.
>>
>>a total "crap shoot".
>
>i doubt this. however, even if they do, it's only impact players that
I had a similar argument in the Sharks newsgroup last May, and
so did a quick analysis of 1st round picks from 1982-88 and
counted how many achieved mediocrity or better:
Here's a summary of the picks by the 21 teams who picked from 82-88
and my opinion of which of their picks achieved mediocrity or better.
bos - 3
buf - 4
cgy - 2
chi - 3
que - 0
dal - 2
det - 6
edm - 1
har - 4
lak - 1
mon - 1
nj - 4
nyi - 2
nyr - 3
phi - 2
win - 3
pit - 6
stl - 2
tor - 6
van - 4
was - 2
-------
61 out of 146 picks (I'll leave it as an exercise as to why its
not 7 * 21 = 147) = 42% hit rate.
The Avs are pick late in the 1st round so, I suspect their hit rate will
be closer to 25%.
Something else ... picking great doesn't equate to long term success
... those 6 great first round picks did TO a lot of good, eh?
>truly count. fringe players are a dime a dozen.
I also did another analysis (ate crow on this one), that contrary
to intuition, 75% of the top 25 players (by salary) were drafted in
the 1st round. So if you want to draft a star, you need a 1st
round pick. But of course, it is highly unlikely any particular 1st
rounder will be a star. The only players that were a sure things in my
recollection Lindros and Lemieux. That's two guys out of over 200
1st round picks. And only 18 or 19 guys out of 200 or so
1st round picks that are star players a hit rate of 10%.
So with 5 picks, the chances of getting another star if Avs pick on
average in the middle of the 1st is 1-.9^5 = 41%. But the Avs are
far more likely to pick near the end of the 1st round. And in any case,
once they snare that blue chip player it will be another 3-5 years
before he produces.
I see merit in Gerald's argument that the team that is pressed for cash
should rely on the draft. Nonetheless, the Avs cash problem is
temporary. The Pepsi center will either get built or they'll move to
Oklahoma (or maybe Bombardier will build them a palace in Quebec).
Signing Kariya would make sense because they'll have a cash generating
resource 2-4 years from now when they get their palace, wherereas
Sakic will be in his 30s.
--
-Mike Eisler Solaris NFS group
NO_...@Eng.Sun.Com_SPAM Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Mike Eisler
In article <5sq9fp$c...@bcarh8ab.bnr.ca>,
Gerald Olchowy <golc...@nortel.ca> wrote:
>
>In article <33f07da3...@news.direct.ca>, olo...@arda.west (olorin) writes:
Someone other than olorin wrote:
>|> >
>|> >The majority of first rounders end up playing in the NHL, so it isn't
>|> >a total "crap shoot".
The majority play a few games, but less than the majority stick with
NHL and achieve mediocrity. (to get an idea of my subjective standard,
I don't consider Lawton to achieved mediocrity even if he was playing
in the league as late as 1992).
>|> i doubt this. however, even if they do, it's only impact players that
>|> truly count. fringe players are a dime a dozen.
>|>
>
>Sakic was picked about 15th overall...Tkachuk went around 20th.
>Messier went in the 3rd round. Jari Kurri in the 4th round.
>Brodeur and Potvin in the second round.
I used to think as you did. Go to NHLPA's web page, look at the top 25
or paid players and tell us how many Messier's, Ozolinsh (sp), and
Kurri's there are. The players you've listed are aberrations.
olorin
On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:42:31 GMT, Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca>
wrote:
>
>Examining each 1st round gives the following players whom I'd call
>worthwhile picks (ie players that have, or very likely will, estabish
>themselves as quality NHLers.
>The 1995 1st round produced Berard, Redden, Berg, Kilger, McLaren, Iginla,
>McKee and Sykora. Ware, Biron and Church also look good. That's 11/26.
>1994: Jovanovsky, Tverdovsky, Bonk, O'Neill, Smyth, Moreau, Fichaud,
>and Primeau are solid. Bonsignore, Storr, Baumgartner, Brown and Cloutier
>will likely pan out. Lindros made it until he got rung. That's 14/26.
>1993: Daigle, Pronger, Gratton, Kariya, Niedermayer, Arnott, Harvey,
>Thibault, Witt, Jonsson, Deadmarsh, M. Wilson, Koivu and Bertuzzi. Kozlov
>and Allison could still pan out. That's 16/26.
>1992: Hamrlik, Yashin, Rathje, Kasparaitus, Krivokrasov, Gonchar, Smith,
>and Straka. Warriner, Stillman, Convery, Nazarov, Bowen and Marshall are
>still quality prospects. That's 14/24.
>1991: Lindros, Falloon, Niedermayer, Lachance, Forsberg, Lapointe, Boucher,
>Kovalev, Matvichuk and Rucinsky. Ward, Rolston, Peake, Murray and McAmmond
>are okay. That's 15/22.
>1990: Nolan, Primeau, Nedved, Ricci, Jagr, Sydor, Hatcher, Kidd, May,
>Dykhuis, Tkachuk, Brodeur and Smolinski. Slaney, Berehowski, Stevenson,
>Stewart and Antoski are decent. That's 18/21.
>1989: Sundin, Thornton, Barnes, Guerin, Holik and Haller. Some usefulness
>with Zmolek, Marshall, Heward, Kolzig and Rice. That's 11/21.
>1988: Modano, Linden, Leschyshyn, Shannon, Gelinas, Roenick, Brind'Amour,
>and Selanne. Useful are Pearson, Savage, Leroux and Muzzati. That's
>12/21.
>Conclusion. From 1988 on, team's stand a better than 50% chance of drafting
>a guy that will play for them in the NHL with their first round pick. About
>20% of those players that play in the NHL are impact players. That means
>that teams have about a 10% chance of drafting a star. With 5 picks,
>therefore, you have a decent chance of getting 5 NHLers and 2 star players.
>Of course, a lot depends on the talent available and scouting. Not every
>year is as good as the 1990 (or 1997) crop, but most aren't as thin as
>the 1989 or 1992 years. In sum, I'd rather have the 5 picks than Sakic,
>especially when I've already got Forsberg, Ricci and Deadmarsh.
most responders are missing my point. i'm not saying that late first
rounders are useless. you have to take my comments in context. i'm
talking about the 5 firsts that the rangers would give up for joe
sakic. to make the deal worth it for the avs, you'd want to get
comparable talent out of those draft picks (for sakic). my point is,
the chances are very low, therefore it is in the best interests of the
avs to match or arrange a better deal with the rangers (as it is, they
matched the offer).
as for your analysis, you included a lot of fringe players as players
worth having. be that as it may, if only 50% make it then out of 5
picks the rangers would be lucky to get 3 players who play in the nhl
and very lucky to get an impact player. note also that an impact
player does not necessarily connote "star" player which joe sakic is.
in short: i find it very difficult to believe that the avs would be
able to draft comparable talent (to joe) with the five firsts the
rangers would give up, precisely because they would be late first
rounders.
>Alex
Jimmy Mallette
On 12 Aug 1997, Neal Bauer wrote:
> Mike Eisler (NO_...@eng.sun.com_SPAM) wrote:
> : Sign Kariya to an offer sheet. Then the Avs have no net loss in picks,
> : and get a younger battleship.
>
> The problem the Avs have is money. If they can afford Kariya, they can
> afford Sakic.
>
You forgot that the problem with the Sakic saga is the 15 millions
to put in his bank account thursday morning, not to pay him during the
season !
Jim
Taz...@istar.ca
In article <5srci7$6...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>,
ne...@cnd.hp.com (Neal Bauer) wrote:
>
> It is being reported in Denver that the Avs are matching the offer to
> Sakic.
That's what were receiving just north of you too.
The question now is... WHO's NEXT?
It seems as if this is simply going to push up the salaries of all the
availible players at this time, no matter what their real value when
compared to other non-eligible players. New York NEEDS to fill the
gapping void left by Messier, but with 'matching' clauses in many
contracts they will simply be driving up the price of other teams.
Perhaps they should look at MANY good players and look to others like
Gretzky to fill the various partial components of Messiers loss.
Just my Punt's worth.
Keep your stick on the ice. -Red Green
TRF
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Fude Max Chuang
In article <5ssknv$k...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Neal Bauer <ne...@cnd.hp.com> wrote:
>
>I think if the Avs had let Sakic go and managed to sign Kariya, the
>fans would not be pleased (until Kariya hoisted the cup of course).
Then those fans are obviously not very well-informed. Sakic is a great
player, but Kariya is 6 years younger, and is already a superior player.
Max
--
==============================================================================
F. Max Chuang || "I pulled an allnighter!"
(ma...@csua.berkeley.edu) || "You studied all night?"
(fmc...@is5.nyu.edu) || "Oh, you're supposed to study?"
ROBO and Sonia
ma...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Fude Max Chuang) said:
>In article <5ssknv$k...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Neal Bauer <ne...@cnd.hp.com> wrote:
>>
>>I think if the Avs had let Sakic go and managed to sign Kariya, the
>>fans would not be pleased (until Kariya hoisted the cup of course).
>
>Then those fans are obviously not very well-informed. Sakic is a great
>player, but Kariya is 6 years younger, and is already a superior player.
>
>
this is debatable. Sakic has proven himself in teh playoffs with stellar
performances and a Conn Smythe trophy. Kariya certainly has the POTENTIAL to be
better, but time will tell. Personally, I love watching the little midget zoom
around the ice with the puck, so I'm rooting for him.
cogito ergo SQUAT!
Rob and Sonia
"It's a great day for hockey"
- the late Badger Bob
Gary L. Dare
M. Zaiem Beg (zb...@holly.ColoState.EDU) wrote:
: Neal Bauer <ne...@cnd.hp.com> wrote:
: : The problem the Avs have is money. If they can afford Kariya,
: : they can afford Sakic.
: And Disney has plenty of money.
However, the Ducks are supposed to be a money-making venture
not a hobby for Disney to spend its hard-earned money upon.
Same with Ascent ... their company-saving income from "Air
Force One" (as producers) is for shareholder value ... the
Avs must make money, not soak up Ascent's media profits.
--
Gary L. Dare
g...@ripco.com
g...@prairienet.org
"Je me souviens"
Gerald Olchowy
In article <5sqolk$j...@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca> writes:
|> In article <5sq9fp$c...@bcarh8ab.bnr.ca>,
|> golc...@nortel.ca (Gerald Olchowy) wrote:
|>
|> >Sakic was picked about 15th overall...Tkachuk went around 20th.
|> >Messier went in the 3rd round. Jari Kurri in the 4th round.
|> >Brodeur and Potvin in the second round.
|>
|> Actually, Brodeur went in the first round, 20th overall.
|>
But the point remains that impact players occassionally slide to
later in the draft. Late first round picks are NOT useless.
--
Gerald
M. Zaiem Beg
Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca> wrote:
: Examining each 1st round gives the following players whom I'd call
: worthwhile picks (ie players that have, or very likely will, estabish
: themselves as quality NHLers.
<big snip>
: Conclusion. From 1988 on, team's stand a better than 50% chance of drafting
: a guy that will play for them in the NHL with their first round pick. About
: 20% of those players that play in the NHL are impact players. That means
: that teams have about a 10% chance of drafting a star. With 5 picks,
: therefore, you have a decent chance of getting 5 NHLers and 2 star players.
: Of course, a lot depends on the talent available and scouting. Not every
: year is as good as the 1990 (or 1997) crop, but most aren't as thin as
: the 1989 or 1992 years. In sum, I'd rather have the 5 picks than Sakic,
: especially when I've already got Forsberg, Ricci and Deadmarsh.
Hmm. This is true, but then there is the popularity issue. Ascent wants
the Avs to be a business, i.e. they don't have to draw funds from other
parts of the company to survive. Joe Sakic is the most popular sports
figure in Colorado after John Elway (the picture of him hosting the Cup
was put on _phonebooks_ all over the state, for crying out loud). The
Pepsi Centre gets built, but the fans feel miffed because Sakic, the
popular guy is gone. In the long run the draft picks would probably be
better, but Ascent _needs_ the Avs to make as much money as possible as
soon as possible, so Sakic is the short-term moneymaker. Keep the fans
happy, keep Sakic, all is good. Lose Sakic, get 5 draft picks, and 5-6
years down the road the club is better off playerwise, but could stand to
lose a great deal of money in the meantime.
Also, I'm glad they kept Sakic because it was a slap in the face to the
Rangers, who are IMHO blowing NHL salaries way out of hand. I like the
NHL's system in that they don't have a salary cap, but teams like the
Rangers abuse it. By Colorado matching the offer, it shows that "smaller"
organizations can't be bullied as easily as thought. Bravo to Charlie
Lyons, nobody was expecting the Pepsi Centre to come through this soon.
Alex Goddard
In article <5ssd0r$8...@bcarh8ab.bnr.ca>,
golc...@nortel.ca (Gerald Olchowy) wrote:
>But the point remains that impact players occassionally slide to
>later in the draft.
I would say impact players *frequently* come from the later rounds.
I was only correcting you on Brodeur's draft position.
>Late first round picks are NOT useless.
Certainly not. Late 8th round picks are not useless. Late first
round picks USUALLY turn into NHLers, though not always impact
players.
Alex
Alex Goddard
Examining each 1st round gives the following players whom I'd call
worthwhile picks (ie players that have, or very likely will, estabish
themselves as quality NHLers.
The 1995 1st round produced Berard, Redden, Berg, Kilger, McLaren, Iginla,
McKee and Sykora. Ware, Biron and Church also look good. That's 11/26.
1994: Jovanovsky, Tverdovsky, Bonk, O'Neill, Smyth, Moreau, Fichaud,
and Primeau are solid. Bonsignore, Storr, Baumgartner, Brown and Cloutier
will likely pan out. Lindros made it until he got rung. That's 14/26.
1993: Daigle, Pronger, Gratton, Kariya, Niedermayer, Arnott, Harvey,
Thibault, Witt, Jonsson, Deadmarsh, M. Wilson, Koivu and Bertuzzi. Kozlov
and Allison could still pan out. That's 16/26.
1992: Hamrlik, Yashin, Rathje, Kasparaitus, Krivokrasov, Gonchar, Smith,
and Straka. Warriner, Stillman, Convery, Nazarov, Bowen and Marshall are
still quality prospects. That's 14/24.
1991: Lindros, Falloon, Niedermayer, Lachance, Forsberg, Lapointe, Boucher,
Kovalev, Matvichuk and Rucinsky. Ward, Rolston, Peake, Murray and McAmmond
are okay. That's 15/22.
1990: Nolan, Primeau, Nedved, Ricci, Jagr, Sydor, Hatcher, Kidd, May,
Dykhuis, Tkachuk, Brodeur and Smolinski. Slaney, Berehowski, Stevenson,
Stewart and Antoski are decent. That's 18/21.
1989: Sundin, Thornton, Barnes, Guerin, Holik and Haller. Some usefulness
with Zmolek, Marshall, Heward, Kolzig and Rice. That's 11/21.
1988: Modano, Linden, Leschyshyn, Shannon, Gelinas, Roenick, Brind'Amour,
and Selanne. Useful are Pearson, Savage, Leroux and Muzzati. That's
12/21.
Conclusion. From 1988 on, team's stand a better than 50% chance of drafting
a guy that will play for them in the NHL with their first round pick. About
20% of those players that play in the NHL are impact players. That means
that teams have about a 10% chance of drafting a star. With 5 picks,
therefore, you have a decent chance of getting 5 NHLers and 2 star players.
Of course, a lot depends on the talent available and scouting. Not every
year is as good as the 1990 (or 1997) crop, but most aren't as thin as
the 1989 or 1992 years. In sum, I'd rather have the 5 picks than Sakic,
especially when I've already got Forsberg, Ricci and Deadmarsh.
Alex
Neal Bauer
Mike Eisler (NO_...@eng.sun.com_SPAM) wrote:
: >The problem the Avs have is money. If they can afford Kariya, they can
: >afford Sakic.
: Not really. Kariya is much younger. Higher chance of finding 14,000
: suckers to pay $15 more a game with Kariya.
They're already going to do that - the new arena is going to be
built. Ticket, concession, parking, merchandise prices are ALL going
to go up.
I think if the Avs had let Sakic go and managed to sign Kariya, the
fans would not be pleased (until Kariya hoisted the cup of course).
Neal
Mike Eisler
>: >The problem the Avs have is money. If they can afford Kariya, they can
>: >afford Sakic.
>
>: Not really. Kariya is much younger. Higher chance of finding 14,000
>: suckers to pay $15 more a game with Kariya.
>
>They're already going to do that - the new arena is going to be
The fact that the arena deal came together in the 11'th hour of
Sakic's departure tells me that there are no doubt 100s of
loose ends to tie. We shall see. Look for Ascent to unload the Avs
and Nuggest asap.
>built. Ticket, concession, parking, merchandise prices are ALL going
>to go up.
We'll see if the fans pay, especially if the Avs don't deliver in '98.
After the Wings dispatced 'em last Jne, my father-in-law (who like me
lives in nearby Colorado Springs), quipped, "what team will they buy
now?"
>I think if the Avs had let Sakic go and managed to sign Kariya, the
>fans would not be pleased (until Kariya hoisted the cup of course).
There's no accounting for clueless fans.
Mike Eisler
In article <5st2ru$3...@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>,
Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca> wrote:
ag>The 1995 1st round produced Berard, Redden, Berg, Kilger, McLaren, Iginla,
ag>McKee and Sykora. Ware, Biron and Church also look good. That's 11/26.
ag>
ag>1994: Jovanovsky, Tverdovsky, Bonk, O'Neill, Smyth, Moreau, Fichaud,
ag>and Primeau are solid. Bonsignore, Storr, Baumgartner, Brown and Cloutier
ag>will likely pan out. Lindros made it until he got rung. That's 14/26.
ag>
ag>1993: Daigle, Pronger, Gratton, Kariya, Niedermayer, Arnott, Harvey,
ag>Thibault, Witt, Jonsson, Deadmarsh, M. Wilson, Koivu and Bertuzzi. Kozlov
ag>and Allison could still pan out. That's 16/26.
ag>
ag>1992: Hamrlik, Yashin, Rathje, Kasparaitus, Krivokrasov, Gonchar, Smith,
ag>and Straka. Warriner, Stillman, Convery, Nazarov, Bowen and Marshall are
ag>still quality prospects. That's 14/24.
ag>
ag>1991: Lindros, Falloon, Niedermayer, Lachance, Forsberg, Lapointe, Boucher,
ag>Kovalev, Matvichuk and Rucinsky. Ward, Rolston, Peake, Murray and McAmmond
ag>are okay. That's 15/22.
ag>
ag>1990: Nolan, Primeau, Nedved, Ricci, Jagr, Sydor, Hatcher, Kidd, May,
ag>Dykhuis, Tkachuk, Brodeur and Smolinski. Slaney, Berehowski, Stevenson,
ag>Stewart and Antoski are decent. That's 18/21.
ag>
ag>1989: Sundin, Thornton, Barnes, Guerin, Holik and Haller. Some usefulness
ag>with Zmolek, Marshall, Heward, Kolzig and Rice. That's 11/21.
ag>
ag>1988: Modano, Linden, Leschyshyn, Shannon, Gelinas, Roenick, Brind'Amour,
ag>and Selanne. Useful are Pearson, Savage, Leroux and Muzzati. That's
ag>12/21.
Using players drafted in '92 or later doesn't make sense because
for most of them the jury is still out. Some of your assertions
of quality players: Daigle, Kozlov, Falloon, Nazarov, Zmolek stretch
credibility. Some of those guys may pan out, but some, like
Zmolek are definite wash outs. Indeed, you can argue that 1988
should be the last year of your analysis ... look at Gelinas'
emergence last season.
A better analysis would be 80-88 since the '80 players have mostly
concluded their careers, and the '88 players have had sufficient
time to develop. So I question your conclusion that and other reasons ...
ag>Conclusion. From 1988 on, team's stand a better than 50% chance of drafting
ag>a guy that will play for them in the NHL with their first round pick. About
Your analysis should account for draft position. The Avs will draft
20th or later the next 5 years.
Mike Eisler
In article <5someb$d...@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>,> olo...@arda.west (olorin) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:11:00 GMT, Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca>
>>wrote:
>
>>>The majority of first rounders end up playing in the NHL, so it isn't
>>>a total "crap shoot".
>>
>>truly count. fringe players are a dime a dozen.
>
>than half the first rounders played at least some games in the NHL. 77
>of the 270 I would call regulars. Still, with 5 first round picks, there's
Which of those 77 have Sakic's ability?
>an excellent chance they'll get a player of Sakic's ability. Sakic was
>selected 15th overall.
I doubt it.
>>there's little guarantee that you'll get one of these though. that's
>>the point. for every impact player picked up late there's about 20-30
>>players who don't even make it.
>
>"Guarantee" really has nothing to do with it. Fair value for Sakic is all
>they deserve. Each first round appears to have at least 5 impact players.
Even if there are 5 of those players, which I doubt, they tend to
go in picks 1-10. Sakic as the 15th pick was an aberration.
>With 5 shots at, say, 25-30 impact players, I think the Avalanche is getting
>fair value for Sakic, that is if they don't match and they scout well.
Ask Glen Sather about his first round picks in the mid 80s to early 90s.
Neal Bauer
Fude Max Chuang (ma...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) wrote:
: >I think if the Avs had let Sakic go and managed to sign Kariya, the
: >fans would not be pleased (until Kariya hoisted the cup of course).
: Then those fans are obviously not very well-informed.
That doesn't really matter. I expect it is the uninformed fans that
bring the big bucks into the team (simply because the ratio between hockey
literate and illiterate fans here is very small).
: Sakic is a great player, but Kariya is 6 years younger, and is already a
: superior player.
If I were a team with a good chance of winning a championship in the
next couple years, I'd take Sakic. If I were a young team with little hope
of a championship in the next couple years, I'd take Kariya.
Neal
ROBO and Sonia
olo...@arda.west (olorin) said:
>On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:04:05 GMT, Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <33f9abec...@news.mindspring.com>,
>> ROBO and Sonia (ROBO and Sonia ) wrote:
>>
>>>I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone, layman or hockey expert, would mind having a player
>>>with the excitement and talent level of Paul Kariya. The only guy in the NHL
>>>who can approach his "holyshithowdidhedothat?" value is Jagr.
>>
>>Naww! I'm not really a Bure fan, but he *is* "holyshithowdidhedothat?".
>>
>>>They're both very similar. Sakic has the Cup experience and has proven himself.
>>>I feel more strongly about kariya than I do about LIndros that he will one day
>>>hoist the Cup, while winning the Conn Smythe, Hart and Art Ross, all in the same
>>>year, if only Disney would reach into their pockets and get a decent team.
>>
>>I think Kariya is a great player, but his size will hurt him in playoffs. I think
>>Sakic is a more durable guy, especially when the checking gets really tight in
>>the spring. Then again, Sakic was never a second-half performer until two years
>>ago.
>
>i would normally agree with you about his size but there are three
>things about kariya that make this a moot point: (1) no one can catch
>him to hit him (2) he's a crafty little bugger, and most importantly
>(3) no one can catch him to hit him.
>
>
uh, you forgot one major point :
no one can catch him to hit him.
ROBO and Sonia
ne...@cnd.hp.com (Neal Bauer) said:
>Fude Max Chuang (ma...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) wrote:
>: >I think if the Avs had let Sakic go and managed to sign Kariya, the
>: >fans would not be pleased (until Kariya hoisted the cup of course).
I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone, layman or hockey expert, would mind having a player
with the excitement and talent level of Paul Kariya. The only guy in the NHL
who can approach his "holyshithowdidhedothat?" value is Jagr.
>: Then those fans are obviously not very well-informed.
>
>That doesn't really matter. I expect it is the uninformed fans that
>bring the big bucks into the team (simply because the ratio between hockey
>literate and illiterate fans here is very small).
see above. I can't see how anyone can not enjoy watching the fellow.
>: Sakic is a great player, but Kariya is 6 years younger, and is already a
>: superior player.
>
>If I were a team with a good chance of winning a championship in the
>next couple years, I'd take Sakic. If I were a young team with little hope
>of a championship in the next couple years, I'd take Kariya.
They're both very similar. Sakic has the Cup experience and has proven himself.
I feel more strongly about kariya than I do about LIndros that he will one day
hoist the Cup, while winning the Conn Smythe, Hart and Art Ross, all in the same
year, if only Disney would reach into their pockets and get a decent team.
Alex Goddard
>I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone, layman or hockey expert, would mind having a player
>with the excitement and talent level of Paul Kariya. The only guy in the NHL
>who can approach his "holyshithowdidhedothat?" value is Jagr.
Naww! I'm not really a Bure fan, but he *is* "holyshithowdidhedothat?".
>They're both very similar. Sakic has the Cup experience and has proven himself.
>I feel more strongly about kariya than I do about LIndros that he will one day
>hoist the Cup, while winning the Conn Smythe, Hart and Art Ross, all in the same
>year, if only Disney would reach into their pockets and get a decent team.
I think Kariya is a great player, but his size will hurt him in playoffs. I think
Sakic is a more durable guy, especially when the checking gets really tight in
the spring. Then again, Sakic was never a second-half performer until two years
ago.
ALex
olorin
>In article <33f9abec...@news.mindspring.com>,
i would normally agree with you about his size but there are three
things about kariya that make this a moot point: (1) no one can catch
him to hit him (2) he's a crafty little bugger, and most importantly
(3) no one can catch him to hit him.
olorin
ROBO and Sonia
Alex Goddard <agod...@netcom.ca> said:
>In article <33f9abec...@news.mindspring.com>,
> ROBO and Sonia (ROBO and Sonia ) wrote:
>
>>I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone, layman or hockey expert, would mind having a player
>>with the excitement and talent level of Paul Kariya. The only guy in the NHL
>>who can approach his "holyshithowdidhedothat?" value is Jagr.
>
>Naww! I'm not really a Bure fan, but he *is* "holyshithowdidhedothat?".
was. He has lost so much speed since his knee problem, he's not even one of the
5 fastest in the game anymore. Very sad indeed.
>>They're both very similar. Sakic has the Cup experience and has proven himself.
>>I feel more strongly about kariya than I do about LIndros that he will one day
>>hoist the Cup, while winning the Conn Smythe, Hart and Art Ross, all in the same
>>year, if only Disney would reach into their pockets and get a decent team.
>
>I think Kariya is a great player, but his size will hurt him in playoffs.
depends. I don't think the refs will let him get roughed up and tackled like
they do the bigger guys. They might actually _call_ interference on the defense
when it occurs. HE's quick enough to get around just about anybody, I dunno,
we'll see.
>I think Sakic is a more durable guy, especially when the checking gets really tight in
>the spring.
true.
>Then again, Sakic was never a second-half performer until two years
>ago.
never got much of an opportunity to in Quebec.
Daniel Hitomi
In article <33f54347...@news.mindspring.com>,
ROBO and Sonia <ROBO and Sonia> wrote:
>this is debatable. Sakic has proven himself in teh playoffs with stellar
>performances and a Conn Smythe trophy. Kariya certainly has the POTENTIAL to be
>better, but time will tell. Personally, I love watching the little midget zoom
>around the ice with the puck, so I'm rooting for him.
I think Kariya has shown himself to be just as potent in the playoffs as
he led the Ducks in points and I believe goals during the playoffs. Not
to mention he had been clutch during the Coyotes series, especially with
the game winner in overtime during game 7 of the series. It seems clear
to me that Kariya has already done more than Sakic has during the same
age..
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