game 4 notes
Gerald Olchowy
>
>- The Cup was won when the Pens beat the Caps. It says here that the
> Caps would have won the cup had they gotten by the Pens. Boston and
> Chicago were anticlimactic, really. Teams that rely solely on
> tough forechecking to score will never beat teams like the Pens who
> are playmakers. Boston has 2 playmakers really (Oates and Ruzicka), and
> Chicago has 2 (Roenick and Larmer), but the Pens have a dozen. That's
> why Edmonton won their 5 cups, and why the Canadiens won their cups in
> the 70s. Dump-and-chase doesn't win consistently anymore.
>
Depends how big and talented the people executing the pressure offense
to some extent...if Keenan had his Canada Cup team, he probably could
have beaten the Penguins playing this style...given better goaltending,
a healthy Keith Brown, and two mid-career John Tonelli's, that might
have been enough. Just Stanley Cup quality goaltending, which Belfour
didn't deliver, would have made this a much more interesting series...
but Chicago didn't have enough natural offensive talent up front.
> Year by year, the arguments against Mario become lamer and lamer.
> Now, its the diving kick. Ignoring the fact that every great
> player in the last 15 years worth his salt has taken dives at
> times throughout their career. (#99 ring a bell?)
>
> Maybe its because he's a franco-phone. Maybe THAT is why anglo-
> phone Canadiens don't like him. Maybe its because of his funny
> name. Who knows? Its getting to the point where we have to
> start saying "Who Cares?" He's the greatest in the game. Even
> his detracters know it deep down.
>
Guy Lafleur, Jean Beliveau, Maurice Richard, Ray Bourque, and Mike
Bossy are all Quebecois and "anglophone" Canadians idolize them all.
And you exagerate the criticisms of Lemieux...by telling him not to
dive and not to fake, we are only offering constructive criticism.
If you keep on protesting that Mario is not sufficiently loved,
you may make that the reality. You Pens fans basically are
paranoid when it comes to whether the respect Mario receives is
sufficient. Mario will get his due...Canadians are not afraid
to see their heroes as human beings, as "works" in progress...
the obsessive denial of imperfection in their heroes is an
American cultural characteristic, not a Canadian one.
Gerald
Joseph R. Mcdonald
Great game! Didn't expect the Hawks to quit and they didn't disappoint.
They just ran into a better team.
- Graham was offsides on his first goal.....doesn't matter though.
- On Saturday, I stated that game 4 would be high-scoring with the Hawks
sending their defensemen deep and the Pens getting a lot of odd man
breaks the other way. But of course, being from Pittsburgh, I don't
know what I'm talking about when it comes to hockey. ;-)
- The Cup was won when the Pens beat the Caps. It says here that the
Caps would have won the cup had they gotten by the Pens. Boston and
Chicago were anticlimactic, really. Teams that rely solely on
tough forechecking to score will never beat teams like the Pens who
are playmakers. Boston has 2 playmakers really (Oates and Ruzicka), and
Chicago has 2 (Roenick and Larmer), but the Pens have a dozen. That's
why Edmonton won their 5 cups, and why the Canadiens won their cups in
the 70s. Dump-and-chase doesn't win consistently anymore.
- Without Hasek, the Pens win about 12-5.
- Howard Baldwin Jr. looks like he's retarded.
- Koharski ate his whistle tonight. It was a great officiated game.
he let the players decide it.
- I've been reading this net for 6 years, and in that time the netters who
don't respect #66 have evolved their reasoning sort of like this:
1987-88: Lemieux wins scoring title with 168 points.
netters: It was a fluke, Gretzky was injured. He'll never duplicate it.
1988-89: Disproving the above, Lemieux scores 199 points, 85 goals and 114
assists, 13 short-handed goals (a record) and dominates the sport.
netters: He's a goal-sucking cherry-picker. He's inconsistent, doesn't
show up every night.
1989-90: Disproving the above, Lemieux has a 46-game point scoring streak.
The last 20 or so games he plays with a back so painful he can't
bend over to tie his own skates. The streak ends in New York as
Mario doesn't return after leaving in the first period.
netters: He only cares about himself and his selfish goals. He's not a
team player and he's not a winner.
1990-91: Disproving the above, Lemieux leads the Pens to the Stanley Cup
with 44 points in 23 games (second highest total in history) and
winning the Conn Smythe award.
netters: It was a fluke, he'll choke this year on his own tears (the whiner
that he is). Besides, his career is almost over - hell, he hasn't
even won a scoring title since 1989! He's a faker and a whiner.
1991-92: Disproving the above, Lemieux again leads the Pens to the Stanley
Cup with an outstanding post-season and another Conn Smythe award.
For his career, Mario now has 44 goals and 53 assists in 49
career playoff games, a 1.98 ppg average. He shows he's a money
player, winning the big games. In the regular season, he wins
the scoring title with 131 points despite missing 16 games. The
last half of the playoffs, he plays with a broken hand. Still,
the netters look for another reason to hate him.
netters: He's a diver. He's brought dishonor to the game! Great players
don't take dives!
Year by year, the arguments against Mario become lamer and lamer.
Now, its the diving kick. Ignoring the fact that every great
player in the last 15 years worth his salt has taken dives at
times throughout their career. (#99 ring a bell?)
Maybe its because he's a franco-phone. Maybe THAT is why anglo-
phone Canadiens don't like him. Maybe its because of his funny
name. Who knows? Its getting to the point where we have to
start saying "Who Cares?" He's the greatest in the game. Even
his detracters know it deep down.
Dean
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean J. Falcione Dean's UNIX Exorcism Service
(using jrmst8 by permission "We kill daemons"
of the owner, Joe McDonald)
B. Penrose
golc...@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) responds to a
previous post by writing:
>And you exagerate the criticisms of Lemieux...by telling him not to
>dive and not to fake, we are only offering constructive criticism.
>If you keep on protesting that Mario is not sufficiently loved,
>you may make that the reality. You Pens fans basically are
>paranoid when it comes to whether the respect Mario receives is
>sufficient. Mario will get his due...Canadians are not afraid
>to see their heroes as human beings, as "works" in progress...
>the obsessive denial of imperfection in their heroes is an
>American cultural characteristic, not a Canadian one.
Amen! I couldn't have put it better myself. It's also worth noting
that criticisms of great players--in this case, Lemieux, but Gretzky,
Lafleur, and others before them--are often responses to grossly
hyperbolic praise. Gretzky fans used to say, eg. after Gretzky's 92
goal season, that he was the greatest player ever to look at ice, etc.
Others, while in awe of Gretzky, thought this sort of drivel a bit
premature--he hadn't been on a SC winner at that time, after all.
Similarly, while no one seriously doubts Lemieux's phenomenal gifts,
many get tired of mindless hero-worship and raise points intended to
temper this effluence.
Lemieux is indeed a "work in progress", and becoming greater each
season. He was, IMHO, the right choice for the Conn Smythe, and
performed magnificently when it mattered most. Well done Mario, and
well done Pens!
--Brian
George Ferguson
>- Koharski ate his whistle tonight. It was a great officiated game.
> he let the players decide it.
Hmm. They must've ran out of donuts in the press box then, because it
was Randy Andy calling the game. I must say, he almost destroyed my
theory about him always calling a late penalty in a close game. But
see, what happened was that he had orders from Ziggy to keep it close,
and so was looking to call the Pens for a late one, but with Chelios
getting all that ice time and leading with his elbows, her just
couldn't sneak one in. So my theory is still intact, sort of.
George
--
George Ferguson ARPA: ferg...@cs.rochester.edu
Dept. of Computer Science UUCP: rutgers!rochester!ferguson
University of Rochester VOX: (716) 275-2527
Rochester NY 14627-0226 FAX: (716) 461-2018
Chris Adams
Mario Lemieux was unpopular from the start since he chose not to play on
the Canadian Olympic team in his final year of Junior (claiming that he
could demand more money in the NHL if he played his last year in junior)
and then held out against the Penguins contract offer (not as long as
Lindros though). I remember disliking him at that point even though I
had never seen him play. It's hard to become popular once you are
unpopular.
_______________
/ | | | | | \ Chris Adams
| | O |.|.| O | | (415)857-7864
|[| | | | |]| cadams%hpspd%hpl...@hp.com
| | O |.|.| O | |
\_|___|_|_|___|_/ GO CANUCKS!!!
Paul Brownlow
|> - Koharski ate his whistle tonight. It was a great officiated game.
|> he let the players decide it.
Of course, he did it without lacing up his skates. Andy Van Hellemond
was the referee.
--
Paul Brownlow | What do these men have in common?
Data I/O Corp. Redmond, WA | Jim Lefebvre Chuck Knox
pa...@data-io.com | K. C. Jones Peter Anholt
|
Neal Johnson
> ... Mario discussion deleted...
> the obsessive denial of imperfection in their heroes is an
> American cultural characteristic, not a Canadian one.
Oh my, how silly. Obviously this is because American heroes don't
allow the imperfections that Canadian demi-heroes do.
--
Neal C. Johnson INTERNET: ne...@atmos.washington.edu
UUCP: uw-beaver!atmos.washington.edu!neal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Rihn
>
>Depends how big and talented the people executing the pressure offense
>to some extent...if Keenan had his Canada Cup team, he probably could
>have beaten the Penguins playing this style...given better goaltending,
>a healthy Keith Brown, and two mid-career John Tonelli's, that might
>have been enough. Just Stanley Cup quality goaltending, which Belfour
>didn't deliver, would have made this a much more interesting series...
>but Chicago didn't have enough natural offensive talent up front.
>
team may have given the Pens a run for the money, but then again look at
the talent he's given to work with. Were talking all-star players three
sometimes four lines deep. As for Belfour, he didn't play that poorly
overall...I think the defense in front of him broke down against the Pens
on a variety of the goals. Granted Belfour was weak through the five hole
the entire series, but the speed of the Pens (forcing 2-1 and 3-2 breaks
regularly throughout the series) may have kept him guessing?
>
>
>And you exagerate the criticisms of Lemieux...by telling him not to
>dive and not to fake, we are only offering constructive criticism.
>If you keep on protesting that Mario is not sufficiently loved,
>you may make that the reality. You Pens fans basically are
>paranoid when it comes to whether the respect Mario receives is
>
I agree with you on this point. Personally, I could care less what
people like GLN and the rest of the world thinks of Mario. Besides,
it's Marios' job to earn respect for himself and his team, not the
fans. As far as fans in this area, Everyone on this net that comes
from rich, traditional hockey towns could never understand what it's
like for the majority of people in Pittsburgh. Yes, even though there
are a handful of fans that have been watching this team for quite some
time, this is a realitively new experience for most. New fans are
full of opinions (sometimes ridiculous) and "attitude" for the home
team. I'm glad to see a few netters set aside their opinions of
those "new" fans and simply enjoy watching the Pens play some great
hockey, as I enjoyed the Isles, Habs, Oilers, and Briuns when I was
"new" to the sport and the Pens were basically one of the worst teams
in the league. ( Hey, Hit'em with your purse Stackhouse -- anybody
know what ever happened to Stackhouse -- Kjnell (sp?) Samuelson
reminds of him, big with no "punch")
Anyway....Here's to the PENS.. that's for an interesting season and
an excellent Playoff!!!!
-John
ge...@skatter.usask.ca
>
>
> Maybe its because he's a franco-phone. Maybe THAT is why anglo-
> phone Canadiens don't like him. Maybe its because of his funny
> name. Who knows? Its getting to the point where we have to
> start saying "Who Cares?" He's the greatest in the game. Even
> his detracters know it deep down.
>
You know I wasn't going to respond to this, because I have never had anything
but respect for Mario's *abilities*. But you just had to go and bring up
this crap didn't you Dean. Look just because somebody says they don't like
watching Mario take a dive doesn't mean they don't like him as a player.
In fact I was hoping this final would go 7 games so I could watch more
games with Mario in them simply because he's the best. But when Mario is
taking dives and faking injuries he's not playing, not making the great
moves he's known for, not pushing hard to the net carrying defenders with
him(which he seems to do with ease). In short he's not doing the things
I want to watch him do, he's instead taking the easy way out which I
*know* he doesn't have to do because he is the best.
I love watching Mario play, I hate watching him take a dive. There you
got that straight now.
> Dean
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dean J. Falcione Dean's UNIX Exorcism Service
> (using jrmst8 by permission "We kill daemons"
> of the owner, Joe McDonald)
--
Gerald Gryschuk Saskatoon,Saskatchewan = a place with 9 months
ge...@sask.usask.ca of hockey and 3 months of poor skating.
Go Habs!!!
lipi...@rtsg.mot.com
Mcdonald) writes:
>
>
>Great game! Didn't expect the Hawks to quit and they didn't disappoint.
>They just ran into a better team.
>
>- Graham was offsides on his first goal.....doesn't matter though.
>
It seemed to me that the linesmen in this game blew quite a few calls on
offsides and icing. I was at the game, so I didn't have the benefit of replay
to either confirm or deny this. I remember a couple of instances where I
thought the person was onside and the whistle blew and a couple where I thought
the guy was offsides and no whistle. Also, a couple of icings were waved off
for no apparent reason. Did anybody else notice any of this or were my
emotions distorting my view? It just seemed like the linesmen (I forgot their
names right now, but I know they are normally very competent) didn't have a
particularly good game.
-todd
p.s. I know that icing is waved off if it goes through the crease. Is the
entire semi-circle considered the crease? If so, then the crease extends past
the goalpost now. The rectangular crease ended at the goal line. This would
clarify one of the called off icings.
David Stein
Joseph R. Mcdonald writes:
|> - Without Hasek, the Pens win about 12-5
Paul Ondercin writes:
|> And who was that masked goalie? Hasek has to be one of the best goalies
|> I have ever seen! They should have put him in in game two instead of
|> trying to get him to teach Mr. B. how to keep his legs together like a
|> good little girl! I've never seen a goalie take so many break-aways and
|> STILL come out with a save! Yes, the Hawks lost that game, but it sure
|> wasn't Hasek's fault!
Lori Iannamico:
|> Out came Eddie Belfour, in went Dominik Hasek. Who went on to play a
fantastic
|> game. If it wasn't for him, the game could have easily have been 11-5 Pens.
|> ... But it was Hasek who sparkled this period. He stopped Mario
Lemieux on a
|> breakaway and stopped Kevin Stevens on a breakaway by coming out of the net
|> and almost to center ice, and bulldozed Stevens off the puck. But his best
|> save was in the middle of the period on Kevin Stevens. Stevens fired a
|> rocket of a shot that was sailing towards an open net when Hasek just got
|> the tip of his shaft on the puck and deflected it away from the net.
|> ... Hasek kept the Hawks in the game
Stan Macasieb writes:
|> Dominik Hasek had a great game last night. Smart move by Czar Keenan to
|> yank Ed Belfour when it was apparent that Eddie B didn't have it early.
I tried to point out that Hasek is a world-class goalie here before,
but no one seemed to pay any attention.
Hasek was arguably the best European (if not World) goalkeeper in the
late 80s, and was incredibly unlucky to get drafted by a team with not
only another superb goalie (Belfour), but also with a coach who acts
like a lunatic at times.
From the reports in Czech papers last season, Keenan would send in Hasek,
who would perform excellently, only to pull him right back.
Hasek, being in a new country with a very different style of hockey,
must have had hell of a time dealing with Keenan.
If Keenan had any brains, he would have noticed that Hasek is used to
performing excellently under pressure, being trained by the short format
of World Championships where every game counts. Thus using Hasek in the
play-offs *might* have made the difference, at least for a game or two.
I do hope Hasek will be traded soon.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metamathician) - ===
Stan Macasieb
>
> I tried to point out that Hasek is a world-class goalie here before,
> but no one seemed to pay any attention.
>
> who would perform excellently, only to pull him right back.
>
>
When Belfour held out early this season, Dominik Hasek and Jimmy Waite came
in to do their jobs well. When Belfour came back with a nice raise, Keenan
hamstrung himself into playing Belfour more than Hasek. I mean, you waited long
enough to pay your acknowledged #1, so you treat him as such. Unfortunately,
Dr Dom and Jimmy paid the price. Hasek heads to the bench, and Waite gets
sent to Indy.
There was the double OT game the Hawks lost to the Blues when Hasek turned
in a stellar performance. I was surprised when Czar Keenan started Belfour
the next game, but I guess he knows who his #1 is, even if the rest of
us know better. :)
Agreed, Hasek is among the best netminders in the world on a team with a
great goaltender. There's got to be a way, though, to keep both Hasek
and Belfour happy w/o trading either one of them.
--Stan Macasieb (st...@comm.mot.com)
lipi...@rtsg.mot.com
Philly and he was going bonkers when neither Chevrier nor Cloutier could prove
to him that one was a clear cut #1 goalie. Keenan was in his heyday last year
when Eddie stepped up.(Before the 90-91 season started, it wasn't certain that
Eddie had a roster spot in Chicago) I don't think that Keenan wll allow them
to split duties ala New York Rangers if he is coaching. Maybe if he moves
upstairs, Darryl can find a way to keep both happy.
BTW. Keenan said that he hasn't talked to Wirtz yet regarding his position
next year and probably won't until after the weekend at the earliest.
-todd
Brian S Enyart
>When Belfour held out early this season, Dominik Hasek and Jimmy Waite came
>in to do their jobs well. When Belfour came back with a nice raise, Keenan
>hamstrung himself into playing Belfour more than Hasek. I mean, you waited long
>enough to pay your acknowledged #1, so you treat him as such. Unfortunately,
>Dr Dom and Jimmy paid the price. Hasek heads to the bench, and Waite gets
>sent to Indy.
I remember the slump at the start of the season when many fans were waiting
for Belfour to get back in because neither Hasek or Waite were performing
to par. Waite seemed to be making a lot of "rookie" mistakes that showed he
needed to go down to the minors. Hasek was performing well, but not
exceptionally so. When Belfour came back, he performed better, but not to the
quality of the previous season. Since that time, Hasek seemed to almost
play better from the bench, and he turned out many stellar performances, but
as a whole, Belfour was more consistent. Now, it seems that Hasek has learned
the style a bit better and I think he might actually be better than Belfour,
but he certainly wasn't so during the season.
--
____________________________
-------------------------/ /
Brian Enyart / /________________________________________________
eny...@ecn.purdue.edu /---------------------------------------------------
_________________________ In cases of severe discrepancy,
----------------------/ / It's always reality that's in the wrong.
/ /___________________________________________________
/------------------------------------------------------
David Stein
(Stan Macasieb) writes:
|> When Belfour held out early this season, Dominik Hasek and Jimmy Waite came
|> in to do their jobs well. When Belfour came back with a nice raise, Keenan
|> hamstrung himself into playing Belfour more than Hasek. I mean, you
waited long
|> enough to pay your acknowledged #1, so you treat him as such. Unfortunately,
|> Dr Dom and Jimmy paid the price. Hasek heads to the bench, and Waite gets
|> sent to Indy.
Waite is actually a very good keeper as well. I think Chicago might have
had the best trio of goalkeepers in the world at a time.
|> There was the double OT game the Hawks lost to the Blues when Hasek turned
|> in a stellar performance. I was surprised when Czar Keenan started Belfour
|> the next game, but I guess he knows who his #1 is, even if the rest of
|> us know better. :)
|>
|> Agreed, Hasek is among the best netminders in the world on a team with a
|> great goaltender. There's got to be a way, though, to keep both Hasek
|> and Belfour happy w/o trading either one of them.
|>
|> --Stan Macasieb (st...@comm.mot.com)
Not sure. Say, a team like Los Angeles would be great for Hasek....
- David
(from L.A. :-)
Joseph Charles Achkar
>in a stellar performance. I was surprised when Czar Keenan started Belfour
>the next game, but I guess he knows who his #1 is, even if the rest of
>us know better. :)
>
Hasek has always been an impressive goaltender very much like Curtis Joseph
of the Blues whom not many people heard about or seen play because of the
lack of TV coverage during the regular season.
I was at the Blues double overtime win over Chicago. Mike Keenan started the
game with Belfour and when the Blues scored he put in Hasek, then he pulled
Hasek after the Blues second goal for Belfour, then put in Hasek for the rest
of the game. Hasek was unbelievable in that game. He stopped Brett Hull on
four breakaways and multiple slapshots before Hull scored the winner in the
second overtime.
In the next game, Keenan started Belfour who had a great game for the Hawks
that turned the series around.
IMO I don't think Keenan will be trading Hasek. I think we'll be seeing more
of Hasek next season to give Belfour some rest in the regular season.
>--Stan Macasieb (st...@comm.mot.com)
%*%*%*%**%*%%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*
* __ ______________ ____________________________________ %
% \ \_)____________/ A L L E Z L E S B L U E S ! ! ! *
* \ __________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ %
% \ ________/ *
* \ _______/ jc...@cec1.wustl.edu %
% \ \ *
* \ \ SAINT LOUIS JOE %
% (___) BLUES *
*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%*%
Matt Brown
1. Keenan is a lunatic, and his tactics for changing goaltenders must take
some getting used to. (Aside: They seem to be contagious! Look at
Bowman in Pitts. last game, and the Pat Burn's goalie-go-round with Roy
& Raciot vs da' Bruns. Just think if it ever really works! Too many men
on the ice from changing goalies on the fly. Yikes!)
2. Hasek is a fine netminder, and could really help another team. Maybe if
Waite comes along, and LeBlanc goes in expansion, that trade with
Buffalo could send Hasek + warm body for Andreychuk, Hawerchuk (how much
chuck can a ...) and Ruutu, filling out Chi with some extra firepower to
keep the goons on the bench. (Buffalo names taken from Val Hammerl's
list of unwanteds). But you probably won't see an NHL team hang it's
hopes on a Euro goalie, given the old boy opinion that they are 2nd
rate, and the lack of championship success with imports (from Taako to
Myshkyn, possibly excepting the late Lindberg from Philly).
Speaking of Europe, any news from the Russian/CIS leagues? What will happen
to their Elite, etc. divisions? NHL farm clubs? (Not exactly the Portland-
to-Boston shuffle, eh?). Seriously, any news about whether there will be
separate leagues in the breakaways, or a combined CIS system, or the Russian
equivalent of Chapter 11 bankruptcy?