State Television

[B...@onramp.net]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/08/07/trump-tvs-real-news-sounds-more-like-real-propaganda/?utm_term=.c568f98372b5

Now Trumpsters will never have to watch those awful real news
services. They can get the truth here. LOL

[Dene]

Hmmm... what awful real news? NK sanctions...stock market....economy...jobs report...Mosul....the border...sanctuary city. I'm sure there is some contrived poll or Russia, Russia, Russia story. I'll tune in to CNN and find out.

[michae...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 10:54:40 AM UTC-4, Dene wrote:
> Hmmm... what awful real news? NK sanctions...stock market....economy...jobs report...Mosul....the border...sanctuary city. I'm sure there is some contrived poll or Russia, Russia, Russia story. I'll tune in to CNN and find out.

Booby is almost as stoopid as Shit Stain.

Two sad old men trolling for attention.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 07:54:38 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:

>Hmmm... what awful real news? NK sanctions...stock market....economy...jobs report...Mosul....the border...sanctuary city. I'm sure there is some contrived poll or Russia, Russia, Russia story. I'll tune in to CNN and find out.

Don't bother. Your mind is made up beforehand. When you take the Trump
lies daily it's as bad as someone believing everything that MSNBC and
CNN presents.

[B...@onramp.net]

Here's a good reason to stay away from TRUMP NEWS.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-touts-news-report-based-anonymous-sources-n790666

[-hh]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 10:54:40 AM UTC-4, Dene wrote:

> Hmmm... what awful real news? NK sanctions...

True, there's been sanctions proposed .. but just what will they do?

> stock market..

Granted, the DJIA did get a big 'Trump Bump thru 2 March ... it
was up 17% in 5 months ... but since then has only moved +5%.
That's the opposite of acceleration, so what's really going on?


> ..economy...

Trump promised 4% GDP growth ... but 1Q was at a 1.2% annualized
rate & 2Q was a 2.6% annualized rate:

<https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm>

Want to do the math for how much 3Q & 4Q needs to be to pull that
up to a 4%? (hint: from $18.57T to 19.31T)


> ... jobs report...

For CY2013-2016 (Obama's 2nd term), the average monthly jobs report
from BLS was 214K. For CY2017, it is currently only 184K/month...and
if you also include Nov & Dec 2016 under the premise of these were known
to be on an incoming Trump, then the average drops to 179K.

So both ways to measure Trump result in him being below Obama's
second term average. Now if one uses this to estimate variance to
estimate how much Trump is running below average, the 48 month
variance is (s=72K), which means that 179K is -0.48 standard deviations,
which means Trump's roughly 18% below average.


> Mosul....

What about it? You do realize that the Battle for Mosul
actually started back in Oct 2016? Yes, before the election.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul_offensive_(2016)>


> the border...

The one that Mexico is paying for?

<http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/23/us/san-antonio-bodies-found-in-trailer/index.html>

<http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/13/537050073/afghan-girls-robotics-team-allowed-to-enter-u-s-for-competition>


> sanctuary city.

The problem with the Feds insisting on the States/Municipalities
do certain additional activities is that it isn't free for them
to do so. Historically, fiscal conservatives have pointedly noted
that these Federal impositions are "UNFUNDED MANDATES".

> I'm sure there is some contrived poll or Russia, Russia,
> Russia story. I'll tune in to CNN and find out.

Washington Post is reporting that IBP reported that Trump's approval
rating amongst Republicans has slipped by 12% just in the past month.
Here's both links:

<https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/08/08/trumps-base-is-officially-crumbling/?utm_term=.c85f8b0db559>

""Despite Americans' optimism regarding the economy, multiple
factors are collectively offsetting the boost that the economy
should be giving Trump, and driving down his approval rating,"
said Raghavan Mayur, president of TechnoMetrica Market Intelligence,
which conducts the IBD/TIPP Poll."


<http://www.investors.com/politics/trump-approval-hits-new-low-of-32-as-support-from-his-base-slips-ibdtipp-poll/>


-hh

[MNMikeW]

Just like Obama did.

[MNMikeW]

Wow, so he's doing just like WaPo and NYT then right? LOL!

[Dene]

Mind closed. LOL!

[B...@onramp.net]

Try your best to stay with today, or at least show a reasonable
comparison.

[B...@onramp.net]

He's being his usual self by doing what he criticizes others for.
There's a word for that. Hypocrisy. I guess you think it's ok for
him.

[B...@onramp.net]

You reveal that daily Greg. When you finally admit that Trump is an
inveterate liar that will be the big change.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 10:49:22 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>
wrote:

>Dene <gds...@aol.com> Wrote in message:

>> Hmmm... what awful real news? NK sanctions...stock market....economy...jobs report...Mosul....the border...sanctuary city. I'm sure there is some contrived poll or Russia, Russia, Russia story. I'll tune in to CNN and find out.
>>
>

>You won't find any positive Trump news on CNN unless you find a
> small Internet article or one which skews the facts.

LOL. Greg was being sarcastic. WHOOSH.

[MNMikeW]

Google "West Wing Week". And try your best to not be a pompous asshole
today.

[B...@onramp.net]

I just returned the tenor of your post. It's not like Obama did at
all.

I was aware of the show, but there is absolutely no comparison between
Obama and Trump to begin with. There are videos on You Tube and was
never the stupidity of blasting the media, and that seems to be the
underlying theme of Trump's show. To react to criticisms.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:08:17 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>
wrote:

>B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:

>Fight fire with fire.

Where's hypocrisy in any of the media, other than those that are
actually outright political on both sides and don't report other news.
>
>Be sure and watch so you cant point out any lies in the videos.

I don't have to. That's the one continuing strain of the Trump
administration. Plus Donnie boy will be overseeing it.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:09:49 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>

wrote:

>B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:

>You are the inveterate liar.

No one else calls me that. You can't say the same.

[John B.]

You are the most closed-minded person here. You reject everything
that's said that doesn't comport with your worldview and you
keep saying the same things over and over.

[DumbedDownUSA]

Moderate wrote:

> You won't find any positive Trump news on CNN unless you find a
> small Internet article or one which skews the facts.

So you're saying that unless they skew the facts there is nothing
positive to report?

--
Trump ***Irresponsible, unprofessional and sending the wrong message.***

[DumbedDownUSA]

Dene wrote:

> Hmmm... what awful real news? NK sanctions...stock
> market....economy...jobs report...Mosul....the border...sanctuary
> city.

The Trump administration claimed NK sanctions weren't worth the trouble.

The stock market reflects how they think Trump will go easy on
business... e.g. drastically cutting corporation tax. Good for
businesses like Trumps but not so good for balancing the treasury books.

Unemployment has been steadily decreasing for nearly ten years. It's
difficult to see how much this has to do with anything Trump has done.

The Mosul offensive started months before Trump took office. Just a
couple of months ago very little had changed with regard to policy in
that area. So what are you claiming in that respect?

What's changed at the border?

So in "real" terms not a lot to report?

[Alan Baker]

On 2017-08-08 11:08 AM, Moderate wrote:
> B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:
>> On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:09:49 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 09:11:27 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mind closed. LOL!
>>>>
>>>> You reveal that daily Greg. When you finally admit that Trump is an
>>>> inveterate liar that will be the big change.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are the inveterate liar.
>>
>> No one else calls me that. You can't say the same.
>>
>

> I can say I haven't lied on this newsgroup. You can't say the same.
>

You can say it, but the only way it's true is if you're admitting you're
too ignorant to know when you say something that isn't true.

[Alan Baker]

On 2017-08-08 11:18 AM, Moderate wrote:
> B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:

>> On Tue, 08 Aug 2017 11:47:49 -0500, MNMikeW <mnmi...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Google "West Wing Week". And try your best to not be a pompous asshole
>>> today.
>>
>> I just returned the tenor of your post. It's not like Obama did at
>> all.
>>
>> I was aware of the show, but there is absolutely no comparison between
>> Obama and Trump to begin with.
>

> You got that right Obama was unqualified and he created a mess.

What "mess" did he create?

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:08:47 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>

>I can say I haven't lied on this newsgroup. You can't say the same.

That you say it makes it a lie.
I do not lie, and no one here other than you says so. The fact is
that you call opinions and quotes a lie by a poster. You aren't
bright.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:18:03 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>

wrote:

>B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:

>> On Tue, 08 Aug 2017 11:47:49 -0500, MNMikeW <mnmi...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Google "West Wing Week". And try your best to not be a pompous asshole
>>>today.
>>
>> I just returned the tenor of your post. It's not like Obama did at
>> all.
>>
>> I was aware of the show, but there is absolutely no comparison between
>> Obama and Trump to begin with.
>

>You got that right Obama was unqualified and he created a mess.

Oh I got it right. Obama is not an inveterate liar, an uncouth
person, a proven crook nor someone who has a bad reputation for the
last twenty years. Trump is all of those things.

>
>There are videos on You Tube and was
>> never the stupidity of blasting the media, and that seems to be the
>> underlying theme of Trump's show. To react to criticisms.
>

>Why would Obama complain about the msm? They carried his water.
> He treated Fox news so badly the msm came to Fox news'
> defense.

Fox news deserves every critique that has ever been thrown at them.
>
>You can't remember anything you pompous asshole.

LOL. Have you not come to the conclusion that your denigration of me
is something to be proud of? Maggot.!
>>

[John B.]

Trump has banned Americans from traveling to NK, which means American
NGOs can't go there anymore to provide medical treatment or
humanitarian aid.

More Mexicans have been leaving the US for Mexico than vice versa
since 2014.

Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
enforcing them.

[Dene]

- hide quoted text -

Was I being close minded when I stated healthcare should have a bi-partisan solution with a single payer hospital plan for all citizens? Other than Trump hate, what innovative ideas do you bring to the table?

[Alan Baker]

Other than denying that Trump is unfit to be president, what actualy
accomplishments of his can you point to?

[Alan Baker]

On 2017-08-08 12:17 PM, Dene wrote:
>
> - hide quoted text -

> Was I being close minded when I stated that healthcare should have a bipartisan solution and that single pastor of hospitalization should be part of it? What innovative ideas do you bring to the table, other than the often repeated Trump hate and butthurt?
>

What innovative ideas have the Republicans brought to the table, Greg?

Other than giving away huge gifts to big business and the rich.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:17:42 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:

>
>- hide quoted text -

>Was I being close minded when I stated that healthcare should have a bipartisan solution and that single pastor of hospitalization should be part of it? What innovative ideas do you bring to the table, other than the often repeated Trump hate and butthurt?

This was a reply to John, but I can bring something positive to the
discussion.

Oust Donald Trump, either through Mueller or Congress. Then the GOP
lawmakers can do some business without the specter of him overseeing
it. As bad as Pence is, he would be better until 2020 when they both
will be tossed.

Screw your Trump hate and butthurt. If you don't see that he is
unqualified and hurtful to the country shame on you.

[Dene]

- show quoted text -

Trump has banned Americans from traveling to NK, which means American
NGOs can't go there anymore to provide medical treatment or
humanitarian aid.

Good!

Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
enforcing them.

Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?

[Alan Baker]

On 2017-08-08 12:49 PM, Dene wrote:
> - show quoted text -
> Trump has banned Americans from traveling to NK, which means American
> NGOs can't go there anymore to provide medical treatment or
> humanitarian aid.
>
> Good!

What a good Christian you are...

>
> Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
> illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
> funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
> FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
> enforcing them.
>
> Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?
>

Non sequitur.

[-hh]

Flawed equivalency, because bank robberies are a historical anomaly
which was actually an impetus to create the FBI. The vast
majority of robberies (of museums, businesses, private homes)
are NOT Federal cases even though they're still robberies.

There is a clear parsing between State & Fed responsibilities
when it comes to immigration, as well as conflicting priorities
which define the "public good", which differs from banks. From a
jurisdictional standpoint, Immigration is as a Federal
responsibility, and the (day-to-day) public safety is a State/Local
one: to blur this line by asking State/Local to also do the Fed's
job compromises general public welfare & safety ... while also
being without due compensation from the Feds.

Debate the first part all you want, but the second part has long
been identified by Republicans as a 'Big Government' & inappropriate
"UNFUNDED MANDATE".

And its recent history started with an EO from Ronald Reagan:

<https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12291.html>

And was codified later from a bill brought forward by Dirk Kempthorne
(Idaho) ... yes, another Republican:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfunded_Mandates_Reform_Act_of_1995>

So what you're trying to claim is that its okay for the Feds to
_sometimes_ make the States pay for something without compensation,
such as for when it comes to rounding up the Jews to send them to
Concentration Camps.

Yeah, I went there ... because that's exactly what you're trying
to insinuate: your effective definition of what's legal is being
predicated by how it supports your partisan agenda: "a governmental
system...having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition
and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and
emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."



-hh

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:49:42 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:

>- show quoted text -
>Trump has banned Americans from traveling to NK, which means American
>NGOs can't go there anymore to provide medical treatment or
>humanitarian aid.
>
>Good!

Good???? Back up on this Greg. Shouldn't we have done something in the
thirties to allay the Jewish communities' treatment by Hitler? It was
after the fact that we did in '41 and even then the Germans declared
war on us first.

>
>Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
>illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
>funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
>FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
>enforcing them.
>
>Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?

Apples and Oranges. Robbing a bank is also a state and city crime.
They aren't responsible to use their forces to ferret out every
Federal crime.

[Dene]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:49:42 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:

>- show quoted text -
>Trump has banned Americans from traveling to NK, which means American
>NGOs can't go there anymore to provide medical treatment or
>humanitarian aid.
>
>Good!

Good???? Back up on this Greg. Shouldn't we have done something in the
thirties to allay the Jewish communities' treatment by Hitler? It was
after the fact that we did in '41 and even then the Germans declared
war on us first.

Apples and oranges. NK takes Americans hostages. No American in their tight mind should step foot in there until that little fat pig is deposed or killed.

>Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
>illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
>funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
>FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
>enforcing them.
>
>Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?

Apples and Oranges. Robbing a bank is also a state and city crime.
They aren't responsible to use their forces to ferret out every
Federal crime.

BS. Can't believe anyone supports sanctuary cities. Absolute liberal stupidity.

[Alan Baker]

On 2017-08-08 2:30 PM, Dene wrote:
>
> On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:49:42 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> - show quoted text -
>> Trump has banned Americans from traveling to NK, which means American
>> NGOs can't go there anymore to provide medical treatment or
>> humanitarian aid.
>>
>> Good!
>
> Good???? Back up on this Greg. Shouldn't we have done something in the
> thirties to allay the Jewish communities' treatment by Hitler? It was
> after the fact that we did in '41 and even then the Germans declared
> war on us first.
>
> Apples and oranges. NK takes Americans hostages. No American in their tight mind should step foot in there until that little fat pig is deposed or killed.

Because the PEOPLE he terrorizes and oppresses are so much to blame...

>
>> Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
>> illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
>> funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
>> FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
>> enforcing them.
>>
>> Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?
>
> Apples and Oranges. Robbing a bank is also a state and city crime.
> They aren't responsible to use their forces to ferret out every
> Federal crime.
>
> BS. Can't believe anyone supports sanctuary cities. Absolute liberal stupidity.

Noted that you completely failed to address the point he made...

...coward.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 14:30:33 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:

>
>On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:49:42 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>- show quoted text -
>>Trump has banned Americans from traveling to NK, which means American
>>NGOs can't go there anymore to provide medical treatment or
>>humanitarian aid.
>>
>>Good!
>
>Good???? Back up on this Greg. Shouldn't we have done something in the
>thirties to allay the Jewish communities' treatment by Hitler? It was
>after the fact that we did in '41 and even then the Germans declared
>war on us first.
>
>Apples and oranges. NK takes Americans hostages. No American in their tight mind should step foot in there until that little fat pig is deposed or killed.

There are those who have the ability to help individuals and are
willing to put themselves in peril to do so. They're in their right
minds and to be honored for such humanitarianism.

>
>>Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
>>illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
>>funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
>>FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
>>enforcing them.
>>
>>Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?
>
>Apples and Oranges. Robbing a bank is also a state and city crime.
>They aren't responsible to use their forces to ferret out every
>Federal crime.
>
>BS. Can't believe anyone supports sanctuary cities. Absolute liberal stupidity.

It's something that you can't understand. They too are helpers to the
less fortunate. There has never been a person from a sanctuary city
to commit a terrorist crime. As a matter of fact, none have been
committed by an immigrant.

[Dene]

>Apples and oranges. NK takes Americans hostages. No American in their tight mind should step foot in there until that little fat pig is deposed or killed.

There are those who have the ability to help individuals and are
willing to put themselves in peril to do so. They're in their right
minds and to be honored for such humanitarianism.

Apparently you have no regard for taxpayer money spent, trying to retrieve hostages.

>>Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
>>illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
>>funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
>>FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
>>enforcing them.
>>
>>Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?
>
>Apples and Oranges. Robbing a bank is also a state and city crime.
>They aren't responsible to use their forces to ferret out every
>Federal crime.
>
>BS. Can't believe anyone supports sanctuary cities. Absolute liberal stupidity.

It's something that you can't understand. They too are helpers to the
less fortunate. There has never been a person from a sanctuary city
to commit a terrorist crime. As a matter of fact, none have been
committed by an immigrant.

Apparently you have no regard for federal law.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 15:44:12 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:

>
>>Apples and oranges. NK takes Americans hostages. No American in their tight mind should step foot in there until that little fat pig is deposed or killed.
>
>There are those who have the ability to help individuals and are
>willing to put themselves in peril to do so. They're in their right
>minds and to be honored for such humanitarianism.
>
>Apparently you have no regard for taxpayer money spent, trying to retrieve hostages.

Apparently you think that hostages is an absolute. Plus I seriously
doubt that large sums are spent.

>
>>>Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
>>>illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
>>>funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
>>>FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
>>>enforcing them.
>>>
>>>Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?
>>
>>Apples and Oranges. Robbing a bank is also a state and city crime.
>>They aren't responsible to use their forces to ferret out every
>>Federal crime.
>>
>>BS. Can't believe anyone supports sanctuary cities. Absolute liberal stupidity.
>
>It's something that you can't understand. They too are helpers to the
>less fortunate. There has never been a person from a sanctuary city
>to commit a terrorist crime. As a matter of fact, none have been
>committed by an immigrant.
>
>Apparently you have no regard for federal law.

Oh bullshit Greg. This immigration shutdown is really a stupid thing.
It goes nowhere to make America safer. Period. Every terrorist act
that has occurred here has been by American Citizens born
here.....except for 9/11.

[Dene]

So far...
But apparently you have no regard for current immigration law, which is what sanctuary cities disregard.

[Carbon]

Excellent point.

[B...@onramp.net]

If you mean the EO by Trump you bet I have no regard for it.
Stupidity. But what else could one expect?

[Dene]

If you mean the EO by Trump you bet I have no regard for it.
Stupidity. But what else could one expect?

The original discussion was about sanctuary cities. Support them??

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 18:30:04 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>

wrote:

>B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:
>>

>> Oh bullshit Greg. This immigration shutdown is really a stupid thing.
>> It goes nowhere to make America safer. Period. Every terrorist act
>> that has occurred here has been by American Citizens born
>> here.....except for 9/11.
>>
>

>You are grossly misinformed or lying.

Actually since 9/11 there has been a total of 26 attacks noted as
terrorism. only one was not an American citizen, a Somali Muslim
involved in what was reported as a terrorist act. He injured 13
students at Ohio State University in 2016 by ramming into them with
his car.

http://people.com/politics/donald-trump-refugee-muslim-ban-terrorist-attack-us-statistics/

[B...@onramp.net]

Of course, but that wasn't the original discussion. Check the Subject
line above.

[-hh]

Bobby wrote:
- hide quoted text -

Notice also how Greg has dodged my comments on how Sanctuary Cities vs Immigration
enforcement is an issue of balancing divergent public interests, plus the Fed is now trying
to shove it through as an Unfunded Mandate...a policy which has been an anathema of
Republican & conservative values since at least Ronald Reagan.


-hh

[DumbedDownUSA]

Moderate wrote:

> B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:

> > On Tue, 08 Aug 2017 11:47:49 -0500, MNMikeW <mnmi...@aol.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Google "West Wing Week". And try your best to not be a pompous
> > > asshole today.
> >
> > I just returned the tenor of your post. It's not like Obama did at
> > all.
> >
> > I was aware of the show, but there is absolutely no comparison
> > between Obama and Trump to begin with.
>
> You got that right Obama was unqualified and he created a mess.
>

You think Trump has demonstrated qualifications to be President?

I think a lot of people expected a hell of a lot more from this self
proclaimed god of business.

Perhaps you identify with his lack of knowledge on most subjects. His
instability and unprofessional lack of good leadership are both a
surprise and an embarrassment.

He has shown his only real tactic is bullying.

[Dene]

Notice how Greg rarely reads your blather...

[Dene]

- hide quoted text -

Is there an answer to my question?

[B...@onramp.net]

Obvious that you didn't read this one. try the last sentence. Most
conservatives would be upset.

[B...@onramp.net]

Already answered, you missed it.
Yes.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 21:39:19 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>

>The San Bernardino attack that killed 14?

From the cite I linked:

2015 San Bernardino attack:

A married couple, Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, killed 14
civilians and injured 22 others in a mass shooting at the Inland
Regional Center in San Bernardino, California. Farook was born in the
U.S. to Pakistani parents, and Malik, who was a permanent U.S.
resident, was born in Pakistan but grew up in Saudi Arabia.

As I said, you don't know you're dumb. Have someone read the above to
you and explain what "born in the U.S." and "a permanent U.S.
resident" means.

>
>Since your own cite disproves your previous statement and your
> current statement I count that as two lies.

Oversight isn't a lie you fucking moron.
>
>Maybe you are just stupid and they aren't lies, but you claim to
> be much smarter than I am and that is a lie.

Well, I can read and comprehend English. That alone makes me smarter
than you. Then there's education....of which you're devoid.

[Alan Baker]

You forgot blaming others for his failures.

Can't get healthcare passed: blame the Democrats and Republicans who
were honest enough to stand up to a terrible bill.

North Korea's getting belligerent: blame China.

And so on...

:-)

[Alan Baker]

On 2017-08-08 3:44 PM, Dene wrote:
>
>> Apples and oranges. NK takes Americans hostages. No American in their tight mind should step foot in there until that little fat pig is deposed or killed.
>
> There are those who have the ability to help individuals and are
> willing to put themselves in peril to do so. They're in their right
> minds and to be honored for such humanitarianism.
>
> Apparently you have no regard for taxpayer money spent, trying to retrieve hostages.

When has that actually happened?

>
>>> Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
>>> illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
>>> funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
>>> FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
>>> enforcing them.
>>>
>>> Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?
>>
>> Apples and Oranges. Robbing a bank is also a state and city crime.
>> They aren't responsible to use their forces to ferret out every
>> Federal crime.
>>
>> BS. Can't believe anyone supports sanctuary cities. Absolute liberal stupidity.
>
> It's something that you can't understand. They too are helpers to the
> less fortunate. There has never been a person from a sanctuary city
> to commit a terrorist crime. As a matter of fact, none have been
> committed by an immigrant.
>
> Apparently you have no regard for federal law.
>

Non sequitur.

[Alan Baker]

On 2017-08-08 4:30 PM, Moderate wrote:
> B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:
>>

>> Oh bullshit Greg. This immigration shutdown is really a stupid thing.
>> It goes nowhere to make America safer. Period. Every terrorist act
>> that has occurred here has been by American Citizens born
>> here.....except for 9/11.
>>
>

> You are grossly misinformed or lying.
>

And you've done nothing to correct that...

What a shock.

[Alan Baker]

...because Greg is a coward.

[Alan Baker]

> The San Bernardino attack that killed 14?

Carried out by a US citizen and a legal immigrant:

'On December 2, 2015, 14 people were killed and 22 others were seriously
injured in a terrorist attack consisting of a mass shooting and an
attempted bombing at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino,
California. The perpetrators, Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, a
married couple living in the city of Redlands, targeted a San Bernardino
County Department of Public Health training event and Christmas party of
about 80 employees in a rented banquet room. Farook was a U.S.-born
citizen of Pakistani descent, who worked as a health department
employee. Malik was a Pakistani-born lawful permanent resident of the
United States.'

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_San_Bernardino_attack#Enrique_Marquez_Jr.>

See what I mean about either you're lying or you're just ignorant?

:-)

[-hh]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 10:34:39 PM UTC-4, Dene wrote:
> -hh wrote:

Except that your actions reveal your words to be a lie: the truth is that Greg does read.

Greg lies about it because otherwise, he would have to concede being shown wrong.


Greg's cognitive dissonance stems from his unwillingness or inability to be honest
with himself in the face of reality which clashes with his worldview. It is therefore
no surprise that he then tries to blame others when silence/avoidance doesn't work.

TL;DR: even a puppy is eventually smart enough to figure it out when their trainer rubs
their nose in their own poop ... to "wise up" and stop pooping in the wrong places.



-hh

[B...@onramp.net]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 07:55:23 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>

>How does this square with this statement you made earlier?

>
>"Every terrorist act
>>> that has occurred here has been by American Citizens born
>>> here.....except for 9/11"
>

>It doesn't. The above statement was a proven lie.

Not a lie, an oversight which I corrected. You never corrected your
oversight about San Bernadino....or shall we call that a lie? How does
that square with your definition?

[B...@onramp.net]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 10:48:57 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>

>You corrected it? When? How?
>Was there an admission you were wrong? An apology?

An apology for an oversight? You're a real dick.
>
>You probably don't recall the circumstances of the San Bernardino
> terrorist wife and how she got into the country. It was
> discussed in an LA times article at the time.
>
>Your 'People' source omits relevant details.

Then enlighten us and correct 'People'.

[Alan Baker]

> You corrected it? When? How?
> Was there an admission you were wrong? An apology?
>

> You probably don't recall the circumstances of the San Bernardino
> terrorist wife and how she got into the country. It was
> discussed in an LA times article at the time.
>
> Your 'People' source omits relevant details.
>
>

Since you almost never provide sources (and on the rare occasions you
do, you neglect to quote the text you're citing), you really don't get
to complain about the quality of anyone else's.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 11:14:32 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>

wrote:

>B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:
>> On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 10:48:57 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:
>>>> On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 07:55:23 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>How does this square with this statement you made earlier?
>>>>>
>>>>>"Every terrorist act
>>>>>>> that has occurred here has been by American Citizens born
>>>>>>> here.....except for 9/11"
>>>>>
>>>>>It doesn't. The above statement was a proven lie.
>>>>
>>>> Not a lie, an oversight which I corrected. You never corrected your
>>>> oversight about San Bernadino....or shall we call that a lie? How does
>>>> that square with your definition?
>>>>
>>>
>>>You corrected it? When? How?
>>>Was there an admission you were wrong? An apology?
>>
>> An apology for an oversight? You're a real dick.
>>>
>

>So you did nothing.
>
>We simply have different values.

Since you have none, of course.
>
>You are a lying fuck.
>
>Simple as that really.

ESAD

[John B.]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 3:14:37 PM UTC-4, Dene wrote:
> - hide quoted text -

> On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 12:11:28 PM UTC-4, Dene wrote:
> > On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 07:54:38 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Hmmm... what awful real news? NK sanctions...stock market....economy...jobs report...Mosul....the border...sanctuary city. I'm sure there is some contrived poll or Russia, Russia, Russia story. I'll tune in to CNN and find out.
> >
> > Don't bother. Your mind is made up beforehand. When you take the Trump
> > lies daily it's as bad as someone believing everything that MSNBC and
> > CNN presents.
> >
> > Mind closed. LOL!
>
> You are the most closed-minded person here. You reject everything
> that's said that doesn't comport with your worldview and you
> keep saying the same things over and over.
>
> Was I being close minded when I stated healthcare should have a bi-partisan solution with a single payer hospital plan for all citizens? Other than Trump hate, what innovative ideas do you bring to the table?

I don't recall being asked for any innovative ideas.

[John B.]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 3:49:44 PM UTC-4, Dene wrote:
> - show quoted text -
> Trump has banned Americans from traveling to NK, which means American
> NGOs can't go there anymore to provide medical treatment or
> humanitarian aid.
>
> Good!

Good? Jesus Christ, Greg, why is that good?

>
> Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
> illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
> funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
> FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
> enforcing them.
>
> Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?

Robbing a federally chartered bank is a federal crime. Robbing a
state-chartered bank is not. In any case, comparing being in the
US illegally and robbing a bank is ridiculous.

[John B.]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 6:44:15 PM UTC-4, Dene wrote:
> >Apples and oranges. NK takes Americans hostages. No American in their tight mind should step foot in there until that little fat pig is deposed or killed.
>
> There are those who have the ability to help individuals and are
> willing to put themselves in peril to do so. They're in their right
> minds and to be honored for such humanitarianism.
>
> Apparently you have no regard for taxpayer money spent, trying to retrieve hostages.

How much has that cost, exactly? Negotiation and diplomacy are not
expensive.

>
> >>Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
> >>illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
> >>funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
> >>FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
> >>enforcing them.
> >>
> >>Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?
> >

[John B.]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 7:26:33 PM UTC-4, Dene wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 15:44:12 -0700 (PDT), Dene <gds...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >>Apples and oranges. NK takes Americans hostages. No American in their tight mind should step foot in there until that little fat pig is deposed or killed.
> >
> >There are those who have the ability to help individuals and are
> >willing to put themselves in peril to do so. They're in their right
> >minds and to be honored for such humanitarianism.
> >
> >Apparently you have no regard for taxpayer money spent, trying to retrieve hostages.
>

> Apparently you think that hostages is an absolute. Plus I seriously
> doubt that large sums are spent.

> >
> >>>Trump is blackmailing sanctuary cities: either they round up
> >>>illegal aliens and lock them up or he will withdraw their federal
> >>>funding for totally unrelated necessities. Immigration laws are
> >>>FEDERAL. Cities and municipalities are not responsible for
> >>>enforcing them.
> >>>
> >>>Absolute BS. Bank robbery is a federal crime. Are you suggesting local law enforcement ignore the alarm?
> >>
> >>Apples and Oranges. Robbing a bank is also a state and city crime.
> >>They aren't responsible to use their forces to ferret out every
> >>Federal crime.
> >>
> >>BS. Can't believe anyone supports sanctuary cities. Absolute liberal stupidity.
> >
> >It's something that you can't understand. They too are helpers to the
> >less fortunate. There has never been a person from a sanctuary city
> >to commit a terrorist crime. As a matter of fact, none have been
> >committed by an immigrant.
> >
> >Apparently you have no regard for federal law.
>

> Oh bullshit Greg. This immigration shutdown is really a stupid thing.

> It goes nowhere to make America safer. Period. Every terrorist act

> that has occurred here has been by American Citizens born

> here.....except for 9/11.
>
> So far...
> But apparently you have no regard for current immigration law, which is what sanctuary cities disregard.

No they don't. They are not responsible for enforcing immigration
law. It's entirely the responsibility of the federal government. Here's
a fun fact for you, Greg. Many municipalities arrest illegal aliens,
lock them up, and call ICE to come and get them. Guess what! ICE
doesn't show up, so they have to let them go! The world is not
as simple as you make it out to be.

[John B.]

Do you even know what they are?

[Dene]

I don't recall ever reading any either.

[Dene]

No they don't. They are not responsible for enforcing immigration
law. It's entirely the responsibility of the federal government. Here's
a fun fact for you, Greg. Many municipalities arrest illegal aliens,
lock them up, and call ICE to come and get them. Guess what! ICE
doesn't show up, so they have to let them go! The world is not
as simple as you make it out to be.

Perhaps this happens and can be easily corrected with good DHS leadership. That's far better scenario than irresponsible liberal leaders, actively protecting illegal immigration and the crimes associated with it. What if it's your family member who is raped or killed by an illegal?

[-hh]

Greg wrote:

> John B wrote:
>> No they don't. They are not responsible for enforcing immigration
>> law. It's entirely the responsibility of the federal government. Here's
>> a fun fact for you, Greg. Many municipalities arrest illegal aliens,
>> lock them up, and call ICE to come and get them. Guess what! ICE
>> doesn't show up, so they have to let them go! The world is not as
>> simple as you make it out to be.
>
> Perhaps this happens and can be easily corrected with good DHS leadership.

Some of it is money (resources), which had gone elsewhere because of objectively
higher threats, so the question then becomes: how much more are you willing to
personally pay in taxes to cover this lower threat? +$2K/yr? +$5K/yr? +$10K/yr? More?

And but the level of change you're really looking for literally requires new laws, which
requires more funding to pay for it,too. So again: "put your wallet where your mouth is."

> That's far better scenario than irresponsible liberal leaders, actively protecting
> illegal immigration and the crimes associated with it. What if it's your family member
> who is raped or killed by an illegal?

Liberal? Or actually versed in Law Enforcement principles? it is already well known that
crime rates of illegals are statistically lower than citizens, so that rape/murder is more likely
to have been done by a citizen ... and when there's persecution of illegals just because, it
means that no illegal will come forward as a witness, so your family member's crime will
more likely go unsolved.

And the neighborhood the rest of your family is living in becomes less safe. Which is precisely
the reason why this isn't anywhere near as "easy" as people like to claim: local policing is more
effective when it is working with the community, not against them, and the way it works with illegal
immigration is that the separation of State/Fed roles means that illegals can report crime, which in
the long run, results in a safer neighborhood day to day.

But destroy that trust and you are fucked. Fewer crimes reported, fewer solved, etc.


-hh

[B...@onramp.net]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 18:46:02 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>
wrote:

>"John B." <john...@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

>>
>> No they don't. They are not responsible for enforcing immigration
>> law. It's entirely the responsibility of the federal government. Here's
>> a fun fact for you, Greg. Many municipalities arrest illegal aliens,
>> lock them up, and call ICE to come and get them. Guess what! ICE
>> doesn't show up, so they have to let them go! The world is not
>> as simple as you make it out to be.
>>
>>
>

>This was a regular occurrence under Obama.

Cite.

[B...@onramp.net]

What if they aren't? Odds are major against it happening?

[B...@onramp.net]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 20:18:36 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>
wrote:

>B...@Onramp.net Wrote in message:

>https://cis.org/Oped/How-Get-Our-Immigration-Courts-Back-Enforcing-Federal-Law

That has absolutely nothing to do with municipalities being
responsible for arresting illegal aliens.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 20:28:30 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com>
wrote:

>-hh <recscub...@huntzinger.com> Wrote in message:

>>
>> Liberal? Or actually versed in Law Enforcement principles? it is already well known that
>> crime rates of illegals are statistically lower than citizens, so that rape/murder is more likely
>> to have been done by a citizen ... and when there's persecution of illegals just because, it
>> means that no illegal will come forward as a witness, so your family member's crime will
>> more likely go unsolved.
>

>Crime rates by illegals are probably higher.
>
>http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/327229-crimes-by-illegal-aliens-not-legal-immigrants-are-the-real

HH's post compares illegal aliens vs. American citizens. Your cite
compares illegal aliens vs. legal immigrants. Big difference.

[Alan Baker]

Or you demanding them of anyone but your antagonists...

[Alan Baker]

Is it somehow better if they're raped or killed by a citizen?

[Alan Baker]

Yeah... ...good luck with that.

:-)

[-hh]

BobbyK wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 20:28:30 -0500 (CDT), Moderate <nos...@noemail.com> wrote:

> >-hh Wrote in message:

> >>
> >> Liberal? Or actually versed in Law Enforcement principles? it is already well known that
> >> crime rates of illegals are statistically lower than citizens, so that rape/murder is more likely
> >> to have been done by a citizen ... and when there's persecution of illegals just because, it
> >> means that no illegal will come forward as a witness, so your family member's crime will
> >> more likely go unsolved.
> >
> >Crime rates by illegals are probably higher.
> >
> >http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/327229-crimes-by-illegal-aliens-not-legal-immigrants-are-the-real
>
> HH's post compares illegal aliens vs. American citizens. Your cite
> compares illegal aliens vs. legal immigrants. Big difference.

The first line of Moderate's cite:

"A story published by The Hill last month about two studies claiming that “immigrants
commit less crime than U.S. born citizens” misses the point..."

It goes on to try to point out how the study combined legal & illegal immigrants, but
does not dispute the conclusion that as a group their crime rate is lower than US Citizens.

Fortunately, a CATO Institute study did differentiate these two subgroups:

"Our headline finding is that both illegal immigrants and legal immigrants have
incarceration rates far below those of native-born Americans—at 0.85 percent,
0.47 percent, and 1.53 percent, respectively. Excluding illegal immigrants who
are incarcerated or in detention for immigration offenses lowers their incarceration
rate to 0.5 percent of their population—within a smidge of legal immigrants. As a
result, native-born Americans are overrepresented in the incarcerated population
while illegal and legal immigrants are underrepresented, relative to their respective
shares of the population."

<https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-myths-crime-number-illegal-immigrants>

TL;DR summary: crime* rate of US citizens is 3x higher than illegal immigrants.

Notes:
* - illegal immigration status is not a criminal offense; its a civil.


And note also what CATO points out:

"The relatively low number of incarcerated illegal immigrants places some immigration restrictionists in an uncomfortable position: choosing which myth to believe. The first
myth is that illegal immigrants are especially crime-prone. The second myth is that there
are actually two to three times as many illegal immigrants as is commonly reported.
The usual number used by the government and most demographers is that there are
11 to 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States but a steady drumbeat of skeptics
claim the real number is about 22 to 36 million."

Which means that if there really are more illegals than officially reported, this already low
number drops even further: the 0.5% drops to 0.25% (at 24M) to 0.15% (at 36M).

TL;DR: at the 36M, illegal immigrants are **10x more law abiding** than US Citizens.


Oh, and for snowflakes who don't like CATO, the Police Foundation says it too:

"The perception that the foreign-born, especially “illegal aliens,” are responsible for
higher crime rates is deeply rooted in American public opinion and is sustained by
media anecdote and popular myth."

<https://www.policefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Appendix-D_0.pdf>

As does also Fox News:

"Fear of an illegal immigrant crime wave is sparked by the fear that they are
overwhelmingly murderers, rapists, and thieves. In reality, illegal immigrants
have lower incarceration rates and live in places with lower crimes rates than
native-born Americans."

Plus Fox even went here:

"Far from perpetrating a crime wave, immigrants actually decrease crime rates."

<http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/07/12/illegal-immigrant-crime-wave-evidence-is-hard-to-find.html>


Now if anyone wants to try to complain about how studies are supposedly dated, a
literature search published within the last 90 days says 'Nope!' (eg, no newer studies
were found which invalidate these prior conclusions):

<http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/fact-check-no-evidence-undocumented-immigrants-commit-more-crimes-n777856>

Plus it noted that immigration crackdowns has a chilling effect on public safety, such
as through peoples reporting crimes, which backfires by invariably pushing up crime rates:

<http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/experts-trump-s-immigration-orders-could-drive-crime-n723301>



-hh

[John B.]

This cannot be easily corrected with "good leadership."
It can be corrected by dramatically increasing ICE's budget
so that it has the manpower and wherewithal to carry out its
mission. Illegal aliens by and large are not criminals. The
huge majority of them are here to work and send money home to
their families. Rapists and killers are 100 times more likely
to be Americans than immigrants.

[MNMikeW]

I believe if state chartered bank is insured by the FDIC, it is a
federal crime.

[MNMikeW]

Yes, they are cities where stupid liberals let MS13 gang members wreak
havoc on the population without fear of deportation.

[B...@onramp.net]

All of them? Which ones Mike? Cite.




>

[-hh]

Unfortunately, Mike is barking up the wrong tree, because MS13
happened in large part due to the USA's deportation policy.

The deportation policy effectively backfired because it created
the conditions for the gang to grow & become more powerful.

The basics can be read here:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13#History>

And while some Americans may claim a "Not My Problem" .. it isn't,
because this had multiple feedback effects to the USA:

--> The basics are that the gang members became more proficient
at their criminal craft, resulting in more crime (both in
Central America & USA), aiding recruitment (power) & increasing revenue.

--> An example of revenue gains is the gangs entering into human trafficking.

--> And an example of the effects of higher crime in CA is that
it destabilized life for the general public, resulted in more of
them trying to flee to the safety of the USA.


<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/13/central-american-migration-family-children-detention-at-us-border>


<https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2015/12/16/unaccompanied-children-crossing-southern-border-in-greater-numbers-again-raising-fears-of-new-migrant-crisis/?utm_term=.2dbddebf8f61>


TL;DR summary: this deportation policy backfired, as it resulted in:

* More crime in Central America
* More human trafficking
* More illegal immigration
* More harder-to-solve crimes in both Central America & the USA



-hh

[John B.]

No, that's not what they are.