water hazard rules?
WW
the tee box, it 2 hopped & rolled into pond ( I saw it). I dropped
another ball 2 club lengths b4 the point where it entered the water.
Took a stroke & hit 3. Is this the correct way to play it or am I
supposed to hit another shot from the tee box? There is no designated
drop zone.
Bobby Knight
You made a correct drop. The rule is to drop the ball on the line
between the pin and where it entered the water...as far back as you
want, or from the point where you struck the ball. If it was on the
tee, you may re-tee it.
--
___,
\o
|
/ \
.
"Someone likes every shot"!
bk
John van der Pflum
What color were the stakes or line that defined the water hazard?
You might try looking here for ideas:
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/rules.html
Rule 26 is the one you will likely want to focus on for your question.
--
jvdp
Nobody fears the Chopra
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
Bobby Knight
John's correct. I assumed that the water you found was a water hazard
and not a lateral water hazard. Different drop for lateral.
the Moderator
"Bobby Knight" <bkn...@conramp.net> wrote in message
news:urmk24tirlon61dpc...@4ax.com...
Unless the water is out of bounds.
Bobby Knight
He said that he was playing a tough course with a lot of water. If
the water is out of bounds, it isn't on the course...now is it? Engage
your mouth when your brain is in gear.
Bobby Knight
<kyle...@thisisaninvalidaddress.tld> wrote:
>Bobby Knight <bkn...@conramp.net> writes:
>>
>> John's correct. I assumed that the water you found was a water hazard
>> and not a lateral water hazard. Different drop for lateral.
>
>Bobby, 2CL from the spot where the ball entered the WH may not meet the
>requirements of Rule 26-1b (there's no reason to assume that the
>imaginary line from the hole and passing-through the spot where the
>ball last crossed the margin of the WH would also continue through
>the spot where this player dropped).
>
>Given that he dropped within 2CL, he should hope that it was
>a lateral water hazard as it would be merely be a coincidence
>if he met Rule 26-1b's requirements.
I assumed that it was not a lateral hazard and wrote:
>You made a correct drop. The rule is to drop the ball on the line
>between the pin and where it entered the water...as far back as you
>want, or from the point where you struck the ball. If it was on the
>tee, you may re-tee it.
Rule 26 states:
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the
original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly
between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no
limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or
Where do you see a difference, other than I used the term "pin" other
than" hole"?
raj
Could be ... we have a local course with out of bounds between two holes ...
one of the holes has water and, if you hit a really bad shot, you could put
it in the water and be OB.
Bob
Bobby Knight
Sure...but then the rule is obvious...not a hazard.
BK
John van der Pflum
<kyle...@thisisaninvalidaddress.tld> wrote:
>My quarrel is with, "You made a correct drop" not your summary of
>Rules 26-1b and -1a.
>
>From the description, he has a better chance of having fulfilled
>26-1c (though we do not know if it applied).
I agree that the OP is not fully clear but it sounds like he did the
right thing. He noted that the dropped "2CL b4" the spot where the
ball entered the water hazard.
Absent of confirmation from the original poster, I would interpret the
"b4" to be on line with the hole and the entry point on the hazard.
FWIW -- I think that the "two club length drop" from a hazard is
likely one of the most common errors on dropping. I know that I
always have to stop and think for a second when taking a drop from a
water hazard.
Bobby Knight
<kyle...@thisisaninvalidaddress.tld> wrote:
>John van der Pflum <nowhammy...@bite.org> writes:
>> I agree that the OP is not fully clear but it sounds like he did the
>> right thing. He noted that the dropped "2CL b4" the spot where the
>> ball entered the water hazard.
>>
>> Absent of confirmation from the original poster, I would interpret the
>> "b4" to be on line with the hole and the entry point on the hazard.
>>
>> FWIW -- I think that the "two club length drop" from a hazard is
>> likely one of the most common errors on dropping. I know that I
>> always have to stop and think for a second when taking a drop from a
>> water hazard.
>
>Does that include the time spent determining the color
>of the stakes/lines?
John really IS colorblind.
BK
WW
wrote:
What color were the stakes or line that defined the water hazard?
It's a real hackers course, the scorecard makes no mention of hazards,
only plugged ball relief. I look to see if there are colored markers.
The course it self is called Millcreek in Newburgh NY. A creek
literally runs right thru the middle of the course right @ 170 - 200
yrds affecting 6 of 9 fairways. It's a shit hole but gets little
action & is very challenging.
If it doesn't piss me off royal it should make me a better golfer.
Joe
The year before last I used to sub for my neighbor in a league that
played Millcreek. I don't recall stakes or lines for the hazards and
there is only one potential Lateral, the little pond between 1 and 2.
The creek is at the hackers landing zone on several of the holes, as you
say 170 to 210.
Number 1 is an elevated tee, down slope fairway, with the creek at the
low point at 175. There is a 50 yd flat followed buy an uphill approach
to the green. Tee to green is 320+- Should not be difficult for an
RSG'er, just rive the green with your 3W. Of course, the slot across
the creek is guarded on either side by a tall tree, leaving a 25 yard
wide slot at 180 out from the tee. Most of us should play it as the 4
par that it is or take a big number.
I liked that hole because by the time it was over you knew who you were
playing with. Even the guys that played the league regularly kept
getting suckered.
Joe
John van der Pflum
Based on that description it would likely be a "regular" water hazard
(yellow stakes).
John van der Pflum
<kyle...@thisisaninvalidaddress.tld> wrote:
>Does that include the time spent determining the color
>of the stakes/lines?
Being red/green color blind, sometimes I do have a hard time spotting
the lateral hazard stakes against the typical backdrop of
bushes/shrubs/junk/etc. Often times I'll ask my fellow competitors if
they see any stakes around and they'll point to a red one about 20'
from me. Pretty much the same goes with painted lines.
I wonder how many other color blind golfers have the same trouble.
Yellow ones are pretty easy to spot. Though sometimes they are so
bleached out from the sun the could easily be white.
John van der Pflum
<kyle...@thisisaninvalidaddress.tld> wrote:
>I know.
Huh? I don't think we've ever met. I guess I must have posted it or
something.
david s-a
JVDP
It doesn't matter if there are no stakes or lines indicating the nature
of hazards, or margins of hazards. The 'Rules of Golf' clearly define
what is a 'water hazard' or how it becomes a 'lateral' water hazard,
without recourse to any form of marking or other identification. The RoG
also provide a definition of what constitutes a water hazard 'margin'.
It is incumbent on the Committee to properly mark these, especially if
they have reason to define an alternate margin or if the 'natural'
margin is indistinguishable. Player's are, however, entitled to any
remedy the Rules allow for relief from such hazards, whether they are
marked or not....provided they conform with the RoG 'Definitions'.
Player's are also subject to prescribed penalties if they abuse the
Rules relating to water hazards, even though the hazards may not be marked.
cheers
david
WW
The year before last I used to sub for my neighbor in a league that
played Millcreek. I don't recall stakes or lines for the hazards and
there is only one potential Lateral, the little pond between 1 and 2.
The creek is at the hackers landing zone on several of the holes, as
you
say 170 to 210.
You know it well. I think #1 says 195 to clear the stream. I cut it
thru the trees 1st time out. Last time out I wasn't feeling it, layed
up w/ a nice 4 iron, on in 3 & 2 putted. A 5 on that is not shameful.
There are a lot of tuff holes there. #3 is the same distance to the
creek, then another 200 to the green which just happens to be about a
300 foot elevation. I kid you not, you need to lay up short of the
hill & hit a 7 or 8 iron to get up. I cursed the course the 1st time I
played it but am starting to like it. As with most golf, if you can
play smart & execute the difficult shots, it's that much more fun.
I'll take my lumps tomorrow again.
Bobby Knight
<dsan...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>It doesn't matter if there are no stakes or lines indicating the nature
>of hazards, or margins of hazards. The 'Rules of Golf' clearly define
>what is a 'water hazard' or how it becomes a 'lateral' water hazard,
>without recourse to any form of marking or other identification. The RoG
>also provide a definition of what constitutes a water hazard 'margin'.
>It is incumbent on the Committee to properly mark these, especially if
>they have reason to define an alternate margin or if the 'natural'
>margin is indistinguishable. Player's are, however, entitled to any
>remedy the Rules allow for relief from such hazards, whether they are
>marked or not....provided they conform with the RoG 'Definitions'.
>Player's are also subject to prescribed penalties if they abuse the
>Rules relating to water hazards, even though the hazards may not be marked.
>
>cheers
>david
I would think that the most abused rule regarding water hazards is
playing a "provisional", which of course can only be done when a ball
is possibly OB, or lost. However, sometimes it does make sense, if
it's done to save time by going past the water to see if the original
shot may have possibly cleared it.
BK
gary hayenga
<nowhammy...@bite.org> said:
You did post it. That's how I found out.
gary hayenga
Alan Illeman
The "correct way to play" is to not go in the water, in the first place :-)
assim...@borg.org
On 13-May-2008, WW <dir...@msn.com> wrote:
> I'm playing a tough course with ALOT of water. Today I blasted one off
> the tee box, it 2 hopped & rolled into pond ( I saw it). I dropped
> another ball 2 club lengths b4 the point where it entered the water.
> Took a stroke & hit 3. Is this the correct way to play it or am I
> supposed to hit another shot from the tee box? There is no designated
rule 26 (from usga.org):
26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard
It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having
been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In order to apply this
Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard.
In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under
Rule 27-1.
If a ball is in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a
ball that has not been found is in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in
water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original
ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the
original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between
the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far
behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or
c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin
of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two
club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the
original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on
the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or
substitute a ball.
(Prohibited actions when ball is in hazard - see Rule 13-4.)
(Ball moving in water in a water hazard - see Rule 14-6.)
26-2. Ball Played Within Water Hazard
a. Ball Comes to Rest in Same or Another Water Hazard
If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or
another water hazard after the stroke, the player may:
(i) proceed under Rule 26-1a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player
elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:
(a) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c, adding the
additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule and using as the
reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the
margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard; or
(b) add an additional penalty of one stroke and play a ball as nearly as
possible at the spot from which
the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5); or
(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c; or
(iii) under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the
spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see
Rule 20-5).
b. Ball Lost or Unplayable Outside Hazard or Out of Bounds
If a ball played from within a water hazard is lost or deemed unplayable
outside the hazard or is out of bounds, the player may, after taking a
penalty of one stroke under Rule 27-1 or 28a:
(i) play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot in the hazard from
which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c, adding the
additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule and using as the
reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the
margin of the hazard before it came to rest in the hazard; or
(iii) add an additional penalty of one stroke and play a ball as nearly
as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water
hazard was made (see Rule 20-5).
Note 1: When proceeding under Rule 26-2b, the player is not required to drop
a ball under Rule 27-1 or 28a. If he does drop a ball, he is not required to
play it. He may alternatively proceed under Rule 26-2b(ii) or (iii).
Note 2: If a ball played from within a water hazard is deemed unplayable
outside the hazard, nothing in Rule 26-2b precludes the player from
proceeding under Rule 28b or c.
Penalty for Breach of Rule:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.
--
bill-o
Play the ball as it lies.
Play the course as you find it.
And if you can’t do either, do what is fair.
Howard Brazee
we could take a provisional when there is a possible water hazard
there. Does someone have the change?
Bobby Knight
wrote:
>I know the wording was changed this year in how to determine whether
>we could take a provisional when there is a possible water hazard
>there. Does someone have the change?
To my knowledge nothing has been changed in this regard. The major
change that did take place was there is a penalty for hitting the
wrong ball from a hazard, and that you may now lift your ball to
identify it in a hazard.
http://www.usga.org/news/2007/October/2007_79.html
david s-a
The only wording that was changed was that 'reasonable evidence' of the
ball being in the water hazard was changed to it being 'known or
virtually certain' that the ball is ion the water hazard.
However, there is still a remedy. If you don't know of the existence of
a water hazard it is perfectly legal to declare a 'provisional ball',
because, being unsighted it is reasonable that your ball could be lost
'outside a water hazard' (See Definition of 'provisional ball'). It is
worthwhile mentioning this to your fellow competitors when declaring the
'provisional ball', even though it is not necessary, the phrase says it
all. If it turns out that there IS a water hazard then the question of
where your original is becomes important. If you can be 'virtually
certain' that the ball is in the water hazard (ie it cannot possibly be
anywhere else, for example) then you must abandon the 'provisional' and
proceed according to the water hazards rules. If this is not the case,
and you cannot otherwise find your original within the time limit then
it is deemed 'lost' outside the water hazard, and you may continue with
your provisional ball, accepting the 1-stroke penalty as you go.
cheers
david
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>To my knowledge nothing has been changed in this regard. The major
>change that did take place was there is a penalty for hitting the
>wrong ball from a hazard, and that you may now lift your ball to
>identify it in a hazard.
>
>http://www.usga.org/news/2007/October/2007_79.html
Doing some research, I will semi-answer my own question.
I think it is the wording for "doubt" vs. "reasonable evidence". The
following is current:
5.4 Provisional Ball, Water Hazard. If there is doubt whether a ball
is in or is lost in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard),
the player may play another ball provisionally under any of the
applicable options in Rules of Golf: Rule 26-1.
I found a 2006-2007 book, but it didn't have 5.4 It did have:
27.1 Exceptions:
1. If there is reasonable evidence that the original ball is lost in
a water hazard, the player must proceed in accordance with Rule 26.1.
Bob Brown
"raj" <r...@Bapu.ram> wrote in message
news:cQFWj.3583$J16....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
course. If a USGA event was ever played there, it woudl be changed so that
it was nto out of bounds.
david s-a
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 13:04:41 GMT, Bobby Knight <bkn...@conramp.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>> To my knowledge nothing has been changed in this regard. The major
>> change that did take place was there is a penalty for hitting the
>> wrong ball from a hazard, and that you may now lift your ball to
>> identify it in a hazard.
>>
>> http://www.usga.org/news/2007/October/2007_79.html
>
> Doing some research, I will semi-answer my own question.
>
> I think it is the wording for "doubt" vs. "reasonable evidence". The
> following is current:
>
> 5.4 Provisional Ball, Water Hazard. If there is doubt whether a ball
> is in or is lost in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard),
> the player may play another ball provisionally under any of the
> applicable options in Rules of Golf: Rule 26-1.
>
Howard,
You are confusing yourself quite adequately. The rule you are referring
to above is NOT part of the normal 'lost ball' rule (Rule 27-2); it is a
recommended LOCAL rule only (presently 'Appendix l, Part B, #1..Water
Hazards, Ball Played PROVISIONALLY Under RULE 26-1) which a Committee is
permitted to establish locally:-
"..If the water hazard (including a lateral water hazard) is of such
size or shape and /or located in such a position that:
(i) it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the
hazard or to do so would unduly delay play, and
(ii) if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain
that it is in the water hazard....."
Under these circumstances it boils down to this; a player does not know
if his ball has come to rest in the water hazard, but he knows it might
have, so he is permitted to play a 'special' 'provisional'. His only
option thereafter is to find and play the original, as it lies, if
outside the hazard. If it is found to be in the water hazard, or is
shown to be actually lost in the water hazard he can either play it as
it lies with no penalty OR he can continue play with the 'special'
provisional.He is NOT permitted to take advantage of any of the normal
options offered under the water hazard rules (ie Rule 26-1). (The ball
is a 'provisional' in lieu of these options).
NOTE: this is NOT the same 'Provisional Ball' as identified in the
'Definitions' of the Rules of Golf.
This is a rarely used 'local rule' (mainly because it is rarely
understood!) that a Committee can use only in the very special
circumstances I have outline above.
A typical situation where this might be applied is if the water hazard
is a very long carry (and walk back!) and it may not be known if the
ball actually carried, or if it did carry it might have possibly bounced
back off the bank or a tree branch etc. into the water hazard.
Forget it....this rule confuses most players.....and should only be
provided where members are likely to understand it! We have only a few
courses in the whole of Oz where this Local Rule IS in force.
(I don't think I have ever seen it presented on any course for a Pro
tournament!)
cheers
david