OT - Football riot - someone please explain

[Frank Ketchum]

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16161259

What exaclty is it about football that leads to riots so often?

[gpsman]

On Feb 2, 9:11 am, "Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote:
> http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16161259
>
> What exaclty is it about football that leads to riots so often?

There is no accounting for nitwits, but alcohol and/or mob mentality
and/or stupidity and/or rugby players in the stands being bored nearly
to death seem likely.

But according to one source it suffers no lack of organization, or...
"tradition".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism
-----

- gpsman

[William Clark]

In article <%PwWq.7407$236....@newsfe03.iad>,

"Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote:

> http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16161259
>
> What exaclty is it about football that leads to riots so often?

Stadia with large standing enclosures in which spectators can move about
freely, and access the pitch. It would happen here is we didn't make
everyone sit in outrageously priced seats.

[William Clark]

In article
<52aab98f-e809-4147...@kg1g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>,

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football hooliganism
> -----
>
> - gpsman

Can you please point out to me any such incident in a soccer stadium in
which "rugby players" have been involved? Rugby
crowds/players/spectators are almost certainly the best behaved of all
major sports.

[MNMikew]

"Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote in message
news:%PwWq.7407$236....@newsfe03.iad...

> http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16161259
>
> What exaclty is it about football that leads to riots so often?
>

It's "football". I'd riot too if I had to sit through that many hours of
sheer boredom.

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 09:45:06 -0600, "MNMikew" <MNMi...@aol.com>
wrote:

People don't riot at baseball games. But no other sport requires a
time for people to stretch and wake up.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Frank Ketchum]

"Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:1icli75m7v547q9lg...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 09:45:06 -0600, "MNMikew" <MNMi...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote in message
>>news:%PwWq.7407$236....@newsfe03.iad...
>>> http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16161259
>>>
>>> What exaclty is it about football that leads to riots so often?
>>>
>>It's "football". I'd riot too if I had to sit through that many hours of
>>sheer boredom.
>>
>>
>
>
> People don't riot at baseball games. But no other sport requires a
> time for people to stretch and wake up.

In other words, people are too sleepy at baseball games to riot? I hadn't
thought of it that way.

[johnty]

On Feb 2, 3:57 pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
> People don't riot at baseball games.

Except maybe in Detroit.

And Atlanta.

[BAR]

In article <52aab98f-e809-4147-8a18-
d68f6e...@kg1g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, gps...@driversmail.com
says...

Tribalism at its worst.

[Hollis2]

Fan violence is different in the US than it is in the soccer world. In
the US it usually occurs after a team wins a championship. It starts as a
celebration which gets out of hand. The fans start breaking things and
the police come and beat the shit out of them and everyone goes home.
There is rarely any fatalities and when it does happen, it's usually the
result of an accident.

The Canadians do pretty much the same thing, but in their case. it usually
happens after their team loses a championship.

Soccer violence usually involves groups of opposing fans fighting each
other. The outcome of the game seems irrelevant, because the violence can
start before, during or after the game. Sports represents ritual warfare.
I guess for some people the ritual is not enough. And for some reason,
it's soccer that usually results in such primitive behavior.

________________________________________________________________________ 

[William Clark]

In article <04srv8x...@app-01.ezprovider.com>,

"Hollis2" <a3a...@webnntp.invalid> wrote:

> On Feb 2 2012 11:08 AM, Frank Ketchum wrote:
>
> > "Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
> > news:1icli75m7v547q9lg...@4ax.com...
> > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 09:45:06 -0600, "MNMikew" <MNMi...@aol.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>"Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:%PwWq.7407$236....@newsfe03.iad...
> > >>> http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16161259
> > >>>
> > >>> What exaclty is it about football that leads to riots so often?
> > >>>
> > >>It's "football". I'd riot too if I had to sit through that many hours of
> > >>sheer boredom.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > People don't riot at baseball games. But no other sport requires a
> > > time for people to stretch and wake up.
> >
> > In other words, people are too sleepy at baseball games to riot? I hadn't
> > thought of it that way.
>
> Fan violence is different in the US than it is in the soccer world. In
> the US it usually occurs after a team wins a championship. It starts as a
> celebration which gets out of hand. The fans start breaking things and
> the police come and beat the shit out of them and everyone goes home.
> There is rarely any fatalities and when it does happen, it's usually the
> result of an accident.

Like the Giants fan who was killed after a game in LA last Spring, I
suppose?

>
> The Canadians do pretty much the same thing, but in their case. it usually
> happens after their team loses a championship.
>
> Soccer violence usually involves groups of opposing fans fighting each
> other. The outcome of the game seems irrelevant, because the violence can
> start before, during or after the game. Sports represents ritual warfare.
> I guess for some people the ritual is not enough. And for some reason,
> it's soccer that usually results in such primitive behavior.
>

Typically trite and superficial analysis. I would have expected more
from a "PhD".

[Don Kirkman]

That was two drunk Dodger fans that jumped a Giants fan. It was not a
riot, nor even a crowd action. It happened in the parking lot, not
in the stadium.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/22/local/la-me-bryan-stow-arrest-20110523
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net

[johnty]

On Feb 5, 6:55 am, Don Kirkman <dons...@charter.net> wrote:
>
> That was two drunk Dodger fans that jumped a Giants fan.  It was not a
> riot, nor even a crowd action.   It happened in the parking lot,  not
> in the stadium.

Will that be a great comfort to his family?

[William Clark]

In article <4a9si75lis8na5n7b...@4ax.com>,

Indeed, but it is still clearly "fan violence".

[BAR]

In article <clark-2A6688....@news.eternal-september.org>,
cl...@nospammatsceng.ohio-state.edu says...

Did one of the guy's have an NRA membership card in his wallet? You
could classify it as a firearms related incident.

[William Clark]

In article <MPG.29987f6...@news.giganews.com>,

Or we could classify you as being of at least normal intelligence. But
that would be wrong, too.

[Frank Ketchum]

"BAR" <sc...@you.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.29987f6...@news.giganews.com...

Lol. However since a firearm wasn't involved the logical conclusion is that
to Clark it didn't happen at all.

[William Clark]

In article <QbhYq.8920$W87....@newsfe02.iad>,

Nice try to deflect from the topic - but another abject failure, I'm
afraid. Still getting over that 44x more likely to be killed by a
firearm stat, eh?

[Frank Ketchum]

"William Clark" <cl...@nospammatsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
news:clark-B026B6....@news.eternal-september.org...

After having it explained to the "professor" multiple times now he still
don't understand his error.

[MNMikew]

"William Clark" <cl...@nospammatsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
news:clark-B026B6....@news.eternal-september.org...

In the UK, you're 44 times more likely to be killed by a soccer hooligan
than a firearm. :-)

[William Clark]

In article <9pfi0c...@mid.individual.net>,

Come on, Mikey, even you can do better than this :-)

[William Clark]

In article <12vYq.10042$W87...@newsfe02.iad>,

"He still don't understand", is it? Hmmm. You have the numbers in that
last post, feel free to refute them. I notice you have been totally
silent on the actual details, just resorting to silly bluster.

[Frank Ketchum]

"William Clark" <cl...@nospam.matsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
news:clark-73A51E....@news.eternal-september.org...

You still don't understand. One last time for you William;

I am not refuting your claim that firearm crime rates are higher (much
higher) in the US. I never have said otherwise.

Now see if you can grasp this. Overall crime rates are higher in the UK
than in the US. This has been and still is my point. The very point it is
impossible for you to understand up until now and most likely going forward.

[Carbon]

Do you have evidence to support this? Not doubting you necessarily, but
it seems unintuitive...

[BAR]

In article <pan.2012.02...@nospam.tampabay.rr.com>,
nob...@nospam.tampabay.rr.com says...

Carbs jumps in nipping at your heels and screaming cite in-between each
nip.

[William Clark]

In article <1nxYq.9301$nV5....@newsfe12.iad>,

Would you rather have your wallet stolen or a bullet hole in your head?
Besides, figures for minor crimes, especially those that don;t involve
violence, are notoriously unreliable, simply because so many of them are
unreported, either by the victim or by the police.

But nice try to slide off the critical point, though.

[William Clark]

In article <MPG.299cec0...@news.giganews.com>,

Quire right, too. I gave the FBI and the UK Home Office as sources for
the data I used, both of which you can verify for yourself.

Frank's figures for these "overall crime rates" seem to rest with the
Daily Mail.

[Carbon]

Wrong again. It seems unintuitive, but it might be true for all I know.
Was asking for more evidence.

[BAR]

In article <clark-092E4F....@news.eternal-september.org>,

I would rather be able to carry a concealed weapon. Then, when one of
these criminals wants to steal my wallet I can put a bullet in their
head.

The issue is reducing crime and the best way to do that is to increase
the risk of criminals dying while committing crime. Recidivism rates are
very high. Punishment doesn't work. Rehabilitation doesn't work. Save
society some money and let it be handled on the street.

[Moderate]

Carbon <nob...@nospam.tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:31:44 -0500, BAR wrote:
>> In article <pan.2012.02...@nospam.tampabay.rr.com>,
>>>

>>> Do you have evidence to support this? Not doubting you necessarily,
>>> but it seems unintuitive...
>>
>> Carbs jumps in nipping at your heels and screaming cite in-between
>> each nip.
>
> Wrong again. It seems unintuitive, but it might be true for all I know.
> Was asking for more evidence.

The data has been posted multiple times. Pay attention you little nipper.

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:20:16 -0500, BAR <sc...@you.com> wrote:

>The issue is reducing crime and the best way to do that is to increase
>the risk of criminals dying while committing crime. Recidivism rates are
>very high. Punishment doesn't work. Rehabilitation doesn't work. Save
>society some money and let it be handled on the street.

That works when people have a choice between crime in one county or an
adjacent county. But statistics between countries don't show that
it works. Certainly when countries hanged people for all sorts of
offenses, crime wasn't down.

[William Clark]

In article <MPG.299cf76...@news.giganews.com>,

As long as you see him/her early enough. When the guy comes up behind
you and puts a gun to your head, you're toast, concealed weapon or not.
Oh, and he's probably more likely to shoot you, just to make sure you
don't pull that gun as he is getting away.

It's time you all grew up.

>
> The issue is reducing crime and the best way to do that is to increase
> the risk of criminals dying while committing crime. Recidivism rates are
> very high. Punishment doesn't work. Rehabilitation doesn't work. Save
> society some money and let it be handled on the street.

Indeed, line them up against a wall and shoot them all. Preferably on
TV. There is no reason to even think about the underlying issues, that
would just make your head hurt.

[William Clark]

In article <529290410350450102.82...@news.aioe.org>,

Ah the usual tactic. Hint: it means he has nothing to back this nonsense
up.

[BAR]

In article <clark-E4BF0E....@news.eternal-september.org>,
cl...@nospam.matsceng.ohio-state.edu says...

You maybe toast, however, the rest of the world is not toast. With your
attitude you would just stand there and be robbed and possibly shot
dead.

I on the other hand would chose not to continue to be a victim.

> It's time you all grew up.

It is time you stopped being a coward.

> >
> > The issue is reducing crime and the best way to do that is to increase
> > the risk of criminals dying while committing crime. Recidivism rates are
> > very high. Punishment doesn't work. Rehabilitation doesn't work. Save
> > society some money and let it be handled on the street.
>
> Indeed, line them up against a wall and shoot them all. Preferably on
> TV. There is no reason to even think about the underlying issues, that
> would just make your head hurt.

What is your solution to recidivism?

[William Clark]

In article <MPG.299d921...@news.giganews.com>,

No, you too would be toast. Unless, of course, you have the reaction
time of Superman - which you don't.

>
> I on the other hand would chose not to continue to be a victim.

"Choice" does not come into it in this situation. Unless you choose to
have the perp put one into the back of your head.

>
> > It's time you all grew up.
>
> It is time you stopped being a coward.

Brilliant non sequitur - right on par with your usual nonsense.

>
> > >
> > > The issue is reducing crime and the best way to do that is to increase
> > > the risk of criminals dying while committing crime. Recidivism rates are
> > > very high. Punishment doesn't work. Rehabilitation doesn't work. Save
> > > society some money and let it be handled on the street.
> >
> > Indeed, line them up against a wall and shoot them all. Preferably on
> > TV. There is no reason to even think about the underlying issues, that
> > would just make your head hurt.
>
> What is your solution to recidivism?

Address the underlying causes of high crime rates. I understand that
such long term solutions lie beyond both your will and your attention
span, but there is are reasons that this country has the highest
incarceration rate in the world (almost five times that of the UK), and
it is not because too few citizens carry firearms.

[Frank Ketchum]

"William Clark" <cl...@nospammatsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message

news:clark-092E4F....@news.eternal-september.org...

Except that the statistics for violent crimes are higher in the UK than the
US as I have repeatedly pointed out. Perhaps it will only take another year
and another dozen repetitions for you to finally grasp this point.

[Frank Ketchum]

"William Clark" <cl...@nospammatsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message

news:clark-AA24A3....@news.eternal-september.org...

Here ya go "professor"

"UK is violent crime capital of Europe.
The United Kingdom is the violent crime capital of Europe and has one of the
highest rates of violence in the world, worse even than America, according
to new research."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

Now let the arm-waving excuses / crickets begin.

[BAR]

In article <clark-E90E74....@news.eternal-september.org>,

What are those underlying causes? And why haven't they yet been solved?

[William Clark]

In article <M1ZYq.456$cH7...@newsfe02.iad>,

Except that the comparison is not like for like. The UK figures include
all types of assault - the US ones only includes aggravated assaults,
and ignore those that do not involve serious injuries..

UK figures include a whole set of "sexual offences", the US ones only
"forcible rape".

8% of the UK violent crimes are categorized under "other violence" -
there is no comparable category in the US data.

15% of the recorded crimes in the UK are classified as "harassment" -
there is no US figure for that category.

5% of the UK numbers are for "snatch theft" - is that included under
"robbery" in the US data, or not?

And so it goes on. Almost the only numbers that are a solid comparison
are those for the absolute - murder. Pity.

But, seeing as you seem to think the Daily Mail is an unbiased source
for data, here's one of their pieces that even I can believe :-)

http://tiny.cc/42ybu

[William Clark]

In article <MPG.299e34b...@news.giganews.com>,

Because dinosaurs like you continue to think that complex issues can be
solved with simplistic (and much easier) solutions, like guns.

[BAR]

In article <clark-E1CCFF....@news.eternal-september.org>,

Your complex issues usually boil down to simple issues which can be
solved with simple solutions.

Guns do solve problems.

[Carbon]

You always say that but it's hardly ever true.

What is true is that you totally misinterpreted what was going on. But
then that is not so unusual, is it?

[Moderate]

I have never said that when it wasn't true.

What is it with you Canadians? You are always asking for cites to be
reposted. I thought you guys were into self reliance.

[John B.]

On Feb 2, 10:57 am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 09:45:06 -0600, "MNMikew" <MNMiik...@aol.com>

> wrote:
>
>
>
> >"Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote in message
> >news:%PwWq.7407$236....@newsfe03.iad...
> >>http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16161259
>
> >> What exaclty is it about football that leads to riots so often?
>
> >It's "football". I'd riot too if I had to sit through that many hours of
> >sheer boredom.
>
> People don't riot at baseball games.   But no other sport requires a
> time for people to stretch and wake up.
>

> --
> "In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
> than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
> to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
>
> - James Madison

In 1970-something, the Cleveland Indians had a nickel beer night at a
home game. It led to absolute pandemonium -- fights, brawls, people
running onto the field, etc.

[John B.]

On Feb 2, 9:07 pm, "Hollis2" <a3a8...@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
> On Feb 2 2012 11:08 AM, Frank Ketchum wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
> >news:1icli75m7v547q9lg...@4ax.com...

> > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 09:45:06 -0600, "MNMikew" <MNMiik...@aol.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > >>"Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:%PwWq.7407$236....@newsfe03.iad...
> > >>>http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16161259
>
> > >>> What exaclty is it about football that leads to riots so often?
>
> > >>It's "football". I'd riot too if I had to sit through that many hours of
> > >>sheer boredom.
>
> > > People don't riot at baseball games.   But no other sport requires a
> > > time for people to stretch and wake up.
>

> > In other words, people are too sleepy at baseball games to riot?  I hadn't
> > thought of it that way.
>
> Fan violence is different in the US than it is in the soccer world.  In
> the US it usually occurs after a team wins a championship.  It starts as a
> celebration which gets out of hand.  The fans start breaking things and
> the police come and beat the shit out of them and everyone goes home.
> There is rarely any fatalities and when it does happen, it's usually the
> result of an accident.
>

> The Canadians do pretty much the same thing, but in their case. it usually
> happens after their team loses a championship.
>
> Soccer violence usually involves groups of opposing fans fighting each
> other.  The outcome of the game seems irrelevant, because the violence can
> start before, during or after the game.  Sports represents ritual warfare.
>  I guess for some people the ritual is not enough.  And for some reason,
> it's soccer that usually results in such primitive behavior.
>
> ________________________________________________________________________

The UK is small enough that fans can travel to their teams' away
games. I'm sure that makes for a more combustible situation.

[John B.]

On Feb 8, 11:26 am, "Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote:
> "William Clark" <cl...@nospam.matsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:clark-73A51E....@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > In article <12vYq.10042$W87....@newsfe02.iad>,

> > "Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote:
>
> >> "William Clark" <cl...@nospammatsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
> >>news:clark-B026B6....@news.eternal-september.org...

> >> > In article <QbhYq.8920$W87.8...@newsfe02.iad>,

> >> > "Frank Ketchum" <nos...@thanksanyway.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> "BAR" <sc...@you.com> wrote in message
> >> >>news:MPG.29987f6...@news.giganews.com...

> >> >> > In article <clark-2A6688.11495205022...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >> >> > cl...@nospammatsceng.ohio-state.edu says...
>
> >> >> >> In article <4a9si75lis8na5n7bedjiiuesqqhcu3...@4ax.com>,

> >> >> >>  Don Kirkman <dons...@charter.net> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> > On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 20:44:48 -0500, William Clark
> >> >> >> > <cl...@nospammatsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>

> >> >> >> > >In article <04srv8xt7n....@app-01.ezprovider.com>,

> >> >> >> > > "Hollis2" <a3a8...@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> > >> On Feb 2 2012 11:08 AM, Frank Ketchum wrote:
>
> >> >> >> > >> > "Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
> >> >> >> > >> >news:1icli75m7v547q9lg...@4ax.com...
> >> >> >> > >> > > On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 09:45:06 -0600, "MNMikew"

> >> >> >> > >> > > <MNMiik...@aol.com>

Are you suggesting the low level of private firearm ownership in the
UK is the reason for the higher crime rate?

[William Clark]

In article <jbZYq.12126$EF2....@newsfe18.iad>,

Ah. good, the old Torygraph. See debunking of comparisons based on false
equivalences in previous post. Thank you.

[Frank Ketchum]

"William Clark" <cl...@nospam.matsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message

news:clark-3CD08A....@news.eternal-september.org...

For awhile it looked like crickets but then he closes with a strong
arm-flapping. Well done.

[William Clark]

In article <xpuZq.19903$%17....@newsfe06.iad>,

Perhaps, but certainly a better effort than you are currently mustering.
Or is that actual data making your world so uncomfortable you have to
studiously avoid it?

Certain things ring true, even in the Daily Mail :)
http://tiny.cc/nb7om

[William Clark]

In article <MPG.299e40f...@news.giganews.com>,

Only for the truly hard of thinking.

[Moderate]

Hahaha. Your idea of a trustworthy source is one that uses data over fifty
years old. You don't have to worry about peer review. Anybody involved in
that study is dead.

Current data identified a genetic defect that contributes to liberalism.

Flap, flap Dodo bird. LOL

[William Clark]

In article <547487453350689879.95...@news.aioe.org>,

Gosh - well Frank thinks the Daily Wail and the Torygraph are
unimpeachable sources. You and he prove the point of the article
perfectly.

[Moderate]

I knew you didn't even read your own source. You never do. Hahaha.

Reminds me of the time I replied to one of your posts with a cut-n-paste of
your previous posts. You quickly started arguing with yourself. What a
laugh. You are my favorite poster.

[William Clark]

In article <1353319503350709176.6...@news.aioe.org>,

Oh, yes, I read it. I simply knew you wouldn't really be able to
understand it, hence the silly bluster to cover your tracks.

[BAR]

In article <clark-8926C6....@news.eternal-september.org>,
cl...@nospammatsceng.ohio-state.edu says...

You argue against persons and not ideas. You have proved this over and
over again. You cannot support your ideas with cogent arguments and you
devolve into attacking the person on the other side of the stage, aisle,
issue or spectrum.

[Moderate]

You are a caricature of yourself. A laughing stock. Don't ever change.

[William Clark]

In article <1987953497350761368.8...@news.aioe.org>,

There you go - chirping right on cue.

[William Clark]

In article <MPG.29a1b73...@news.giganews.com>,

Actually it is simply that you let the cogent arguments pass you by,
wait a while, and then pretend they weren't posted in the first place
because you can't answer them. However, by now only your little shadow
Immoderate falls for this, which is no surprise seeing as the two of you
share exactly the same mo.