I don't deserve this diploma

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Love this young woman's attitude here - her HS in NYC says she got her diploma - she doesn't think she earned it and doesn't like this

http://nypost.com/2015/08/02/students-stunning-plea-why-did-nyc-let-me-graduate-high-school/

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 8:37:07 AM UTC-5, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> Love this young woman's attitude here - her HS in NYC says she got her diploma - she doesn't think she earned it and doesn't like this
>
> http://nypost.com/2015/08/02/students-stunning-plea-why-did-nyc-let-me-graduate-high-school/

And a follow up

http://nypost.com/2015/08/02/teacher-explains-why-she-passed-student-who-deserved-to-fail/

[xyzzy]

What's interesting is that she uses the fact that the girl passed her Regents history exam as justification (in fact pressure) for passing her.

Another unintended consequence of high-stakes testing?

(btw Regents have been around in NYS forever. My parents talked about taking them in the 1950s. so they waaaay pre-date the current testing mania, though I don't know if they have been "updated" in response to it).

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

I don't expect honesty from people north of the Ohio River - and I am
rarely surprised.

You really want to applaud the student - but why did she try to fail?
She isn't black. I do understand that Obammy encourages failure of
whites also with his welfare programs.

Hugh

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 11:36:07 AM UTC-5, xyzzy wrote:
> On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 11:59:46 AM UTC-4, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 8:37:07 AM UTC-5, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> > > Love this young woman's attitude here - her HS in NYC says she got her diploma - she doesn't think she earned it and doesn't like this
> > >
> > > http://nypost.com/2015/08/02/students-stunning-plea-why-did-nyc-let-me-graduate-high-school/
> >
> > And a follow up
> >
> > http://nypost.com/2015/08/02/teacher-explains-why-she-passed-student-who-deserved-to-fail/
>
> What's interesting is that she uses the fact that the girl passed her Regents history exam as justification (in fact pressure) for passing her.
>
> Another unintended consequence of high-stakes testing?

Absolutely - like many well-intentioned ideas, there are certainly unintended consequences. Testing makes sense - we want at least a certain level of achievement - but as we've seen here and elsewhere, now we've place enormous importance on having kids pass The Test

[xyzzy]

Speaking of unintended consequences in education.... this week's This American Life is about what happens when students in failing schools are allowed to choose new schools. Hint: the parents in the schools they choose aren't happy.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

I'd like to say this would shock me, but it doesn't.

BTW - if you find one, pick up an Economist from this week - interesting look at private sector education in the 3rd world. Some great, some good, some bad - lots of questions.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Oh hey - here it is - figured it would have been gated, but it's not

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21660113-private-schools-are-booming-poor-countries-governments-should-either-help-them-or-get-out

[Emperor Wonko the Sane]

Since the Ohio River begins in Pittsburgh, which is almost straight west of NYC, thankee for providing an example of the poor geography education provided south of the Ohio River.

Doug

[michael anderson]

fortunately though this is restricted to the district, and in most cases when one school in a district is just terrible the other schools are nothing to write home about either.

This is certainly case where I live. Birmingham city schools are maybe the worst in the entire country(it's close if they aren't). Mountain brook schools, otoh, are universally sterling and just a few miles away. A parent of a kid in a terrible Birmingham city school(and they are all terrible) can't put their kid in an A+++ mountain brook school just 3 miles away....they can only choose between Birmingham city schools.

People in certain districts pay an enormous amount of money to live in those school districts. Obviously that investment has to be protected, and the only way to do that is to prevent transfers.

[xyzzy]

Well in the case I referenced, an entire school system had its accreditation revoked so the kids could pick from any of the surrounding school districts. The kids could pick any district, but the failing district was only required to provide transportation to one neighboring district, of the failing district's choice. The district chosen... they played a tape of a community meeting in the chosen district and let's just say those Boston busing rioters would have felt right at home with this group....

Conservative white Republican parent: "Well of course failing schools should be defunded and their students given school choice. As long as that doesn't mean THOSE PEOPLE will be coming into MY kid's school of course, let's not be crazy with the whole choice thing, amirite? Oh what? They are coming? NOOOOOOOO!1111 That's not what I meant by school choice!!!"

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Haven't had a chance to look this story up - where was did this happen?

[xyzzy]

St. Louis.

Ref:

http://thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Danke

[michael anderson]

On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 1:20:09 PM UTC-5, xyzzy wrote:
> On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 2:09:39 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:
> > On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 11:43:44 AM UTC-5, xyzzy wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 12:36:07 PM UTC-4, xyzzy wrote:
> > > > On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 11:59:46 AM UTC-4, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 8:37:07 AM UTC-5, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> > > > > > Love this young woman's attitude here - her HS in NYC says she got her diploma - she doesn't think she earned it and doesn't like this
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://nypost.com/2015/08/02/students-stunning-plea-why-did-nyc-let-me-graduate-high-school/
> > > > >
> > > > > And a follow up
> > > > >
> > > > > http://nypost.com/2015/08/02/teacher-explains-why-she-passed-student-who-deserved-to-fail/
> > > >
> > > > What's interesting is that she uses the fact that the girl passed her Regents history exam as justification (in fact pressure) for passing her.
> > > >
> > > > Another unintended consequence of high-stakes testing?
> > > >
> > > > (btw Regents have been around in NYS forever. My parents talked about taking them in the 1950s. so they waaaay pre-date the current testing mania, though I don't know if they have been "updated" in response to it).
> > >
> > > Speaking of unintended consequences in education.... this week's This American Life is about what happens when students in failing schools are allowed to choose new schools. Hint: the parents in the schools they choose aren't happy.
> >
> > fortunately though this is restricted to the district, and in most cases when one school in a district is just terrible the other schools are nothing to write home about either.
> >
> > This is certainly case where I live. Birmingham city schools are maybe the worst in the entire country(it's close if they aren't). Mountain brook schools, otoh, are universally sterling and just a few miles away. A parent of a kid in a terrible Birmingham city school(and they are all terrible) can't put their kid in an A+++ mountain brook school just 3 miles away....they can only choose between Birmingham city schools.
> >
> > People in certain districts pay an enormous amount of money to live in those school districts. Obviously that investment has to be protected, and the only way to do that is to prevent transfers.
>
> Well in the case I referenced, an entire school system had its accreditation revoked so the kids could pick from any of the surrounding school districts. The kids could pick any district, but the failing district was only required to provide transportation to one neighboring district, of the failing district's choice.

wait....that's what I don't get. Why would the good systems with separate school systems(if they are in fact good districts) be ok with this? why would they agree to it? You are talking about entirely different school systems right and not schools within the same system? That doesn't seem to make any sense and it seems that it would be in direct opposition to their interests. I don't even have kids, but if I bought a house in one of the few good school districts close to Birmingham, I would be incredibly upset because so much of my property value is tied up in school districts that are separate. These have been very well defined for years and are essentially not changeable.(the school lines within the system are changeable, but these don't matter so much).

Maybe im missing part of the story, because I have no idea why a school board would vote to allow kids from an inferior school system to go to any school in their superior school system...that's the most puzzling thing Ive ever heard. If in fact this is two different school systems.

[michael anderson]

oh wait...from the intro it looks like this is the same school system. My bad. In that case, parents in the 'good' schools really need to just deal with it. Im for being able to transfer in some cases WITHIN the school system. That's an entirely different ballgame than parents trying to get into another school system entirely(which would be absurd and a tremendous violation of property rights imo).
But individual school lines are malleable....happens all the time with population shifts in the system.

[xyzzy]

No, they're different school systems.

One thing that makes it different, I suspect, is that school systems in that area are very tiny. Not the countywide or even citywide systems you might be used to.

[xyzzy]

They didnt have a choice. It's state law that if a school system loses its accreditation, the students can attend neighboring school districts of their choice. Each individual student can pick where he or she goes, but the failing district only has to provide transportation to one neighboring district of the failing district's choice. Which for all practical purposes makes that district the recipient of the majority of the students.

In this case the failing district tried to discourage transfers by picking the most inconvenient district to provide transportation to (one that's 30 miles away). But 1000 students took them up on it anyway.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Up here, we have open enrollment - my kids' hs is the most popular school to leave to from Madison schools - open enrollment is capped by space with preference given to siblings and then geographic area. The schools have to walk a fine line of accusations of poaching - be it academic or athletic talent.

[Wolfie]

"michael anderson" wrote

> oh wait...from the intro it looks like this is the same school system.

It's not. State removed accreditation (because the
school district was failing) and merged it with another
district. And gave the students rights to attend any
other neighboring district as well, if they chose to do
so.

But as to your concerns: you don't get a choice when
the state (or a court) orders it to happen.

[michael anderson]

On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 2:27:40 PM UTC-5, Wolfie wrote:
>
> But as to your concerns: you don't get a choice when
> the state (or a court) orders it to happen.

wow....truly scary stuff to know that a state or court may have that type of power to destroy property values on a whim. I don't see it ever happening here, but then again you never know what the future holds. I'd be outraged if I was a parent who spent 650k to be in mountain brook schools(and the incredibly high millage rates that go with them) and a few years later the nature of the schools changed.

[xyzzy]

Dude that could happen any number of ways, not just by court order. A bunch of creationists could win a majority in the next school board election, for example.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 3 Aug 2015 11:20:07 -0700 (PDT), xyzzy <xyzzy...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Conservative white Republican parent: "Well of course failing schools shoul=
>d be defunded and their students given school choice. As long as that does=
>n't mean THOSE PEOPLE will be coming into MY kid's school of course, let's =
>not be crazy with the whole choice thing, amirite? Oh what? They are comi=

>ng? NOOOOOOOO!1111 That's not what I meant by school choice!!!"

Back in the 50s, before so many teachers became worthless, we could
handle the problems presented - with grades or physical discipline.
Most of the kids turned out very well in spite of strong
disciplinarians.

That may not be representative of black schools. Although one in
Aliceville AL hired a principal in the 70s that made them toe the
mark.

Note: most schools in that area resegregated by choice. The Supt. of
Education was black.

Hugh

[michael anderson]

heck that might raise values here.....not really, but it certainly wouldn't hurt them much. But I don't think people in places like mountain brook(since those are the people that elect mountain brook school board members) are worried about what the school board of mountain brook will do(who are always other mountain brook residents that march lock step with what typical mountain brook resident voters want).....it's the idea that some people in Montgomery(capital 2 hrs away) could make Mountain Brook schools allow non- mountain brook residents to go there under some circumstances. That's truly scary(if unlikely) and highly un-American in my opinion.

Every new student in the mountain brook school system is fairly carefully vetted to make sure they are legit(and not using an aunts address or something). It's fairly easy because everyone sorta know where everyone else lives there, so if an unknown kid shows up he's not just going to slide under the radar. And since their property taxes are insanely high(by Alabama standards at least) even considering the high real estate, I don't blame them for doing this.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

Congratulations. I didn't think anyone would catch that. I couldn't
think of another place to draw the line.

Actually I had intended to take a cruise from Pittsburgh to the Gulf
of Mexico on the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers before they installed all
the locks and dams - never got a round toit. I wanted to cruise the
MS-MO Rivers also. My wife gets motion sickness when a boat is
mentioned.

Hugh