NPR looks at Fed school shooting data

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

finds gobs of errors.

A) Kudos to NPR for this
B) Read the article - 'tis interesting
C) Big Topics require accurate information
D) Regardless of how you "feel" about this, see C - more and more accurate info is a great thing - helps us see the actual scope and location of issues, etc etc etc

Did I mention kudos to NPR for journalisming well done?

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

Almost poasted this. Didn’t want to hear the ONE IS TOO MANY arguments for weapon confiscation.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2018 at 2:50:47 PM UTC-5, the_andr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Almost poasted this. Didn’t want to hear the ONE IS TOO MANY arguments for weapon confiscation.

Well, if someone wants to make that argument, they certainly can. I think this article can at least lead us towards more solid data collection and analysis - hell, for all I know, the rate might be *higher* - there's a lot of missing data out there - not all will be in one direction.

But at least we'll have more solid info to work with

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

There have always been, and always will be, some crazy people. That's
the only important fact.

Hugh

[Michael Press]

In article <3d9e993f-ef1b-4b17...@googlegroups.com>,

"The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior" <iamtj...@gmail.com> wrote:

Go back and see that many of them are said to have
been under treatment for mental instability.

--
Michael Press

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

Arent ALL of them are mentally unstable?

Or do we consider always crazy a stable condition?

[Ken Olson]

The difference is that we used to confine them and try to actually treat
them. The danger in that way is that confinement becomes politicized.
The danger in non-confinement is what is going on now.

--
"We're going to fight racism not with racism, but we're going to fight
with solidarity."
- Fred Hampton

"A sword is never a killer. It is a tool in the killer's hand."
- Seneca

"The hate rolls off my back like hygiene off of Michael Moore."
- Ted Nugent

[Michael Press]

In article <a0ee2344-12c3-4806...@googlegroups.com>,

"the_andr...@yahoo.com" <the_andr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Arent ALL of them are mentally unstable?
>
> Or do we consider always crazy a stable condition?

But they were Under Treatment.

--
Michael Press

[michael anderson]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 4:50:54 PM UTC-5, Ken Olson wrote:
> On 8/29/2018 12:57 PM, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 12:30:18 -0700 (PDT), "The Cheesehusker, Trade
> > Warrior" <iamtj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> finds gobs of errors.
> >>
> >> A) Kudos to NPR for this
> >> B) Read the article - 'tis interesting
> >> C) Big Topics require accurate information
> >> D) Regardless of how you "feel" about this, see C - more and more accurate info is a great thing - helps us see the actual scope and location of issues, etc etc etc
> >>
> >> Did I mention kudos to NPR for journalisming well done?
> >>
> >> https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent
> >
> > There have always been, and always will be, some crazy people. That's
> > the only important fact.
> >
> > Hugh
> >
>
> The difference is that we used to confine them and try to actually treat
> them. The danger in that way is that confinement becomes politicized.
> The danger in non-confinement is what is going on now.

very very few of the high profile mass school shootings involve adolescent or adults who would have been candidates for inpatient hospitalization chronically or institutionalization in a previous era even....

columbine- no
amish shooting- candidate for acute admission...now and then. Not a candidate for chronic hospitalization/confinement. so no.
oikos uni- no
redlake- no
vatech- no
sandy hook- eh...maybe
stoneman- maybe but doubtful
santa fe- no

we have never confined these people at any point for anything other than acute hospitalizations...which we still do now.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 19:41:52 -0700 (PDT), michael anderson
<miande...@gmail.com> wrote:


>very very few of the high profile mass school shootings involve adolescent or adults who would have been candidates for inpatient hospitalization chronically or institutionalization in a previous era even....
>
>columbine- no
>amish shooting- candidate for acute admission...now and then. Not a candidate for chronic hospitalization/confinement. so no.
>oikos uni- no
>redlake- no
>vatech- no
>sandy hook- eh...maybe
>stoneman- maybe but doubtful
>santa fe- no
>
>we have never confined these people at any point for anything other than acute hospitalizations...which we still do now.

But the circumstances have changed and we need to apply more effective
methods.

We can't continue to blame guns when the fault is with people who IN
THIS ERA (perhaps not previously) more often use them for crazed
purposes.

Why should a person who is a repeated problem, mentally and by his
actions, be allowed to roam freely? The way to prevent his using a
tool to commit a crime is to confine him since eliminating the tool is
impossible.

It's an imperfect solution which is superior to an ignorant solution.

Hugh

[Ken Olson]

I dealt with a fair number of people that should have been treated for
their mental illness in an in-patient setting who instead were loose on
the streets, committed crimes, and then were confined in the prison
system. I didn't have time for sympathy and they were a pain in
everyone's ass.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 15:00:34 -0400, Ken Olson <kol...@freedomnet.org>
wrote:

>On 8/30/2018 10:42 AM, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:

>> It's an imperfect solution which is superior to an ignorant solution.
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>
>I dealt with a fair number of people that should have been treated for
>their mental illness in an in-patient setting who instead were loose on
>the streets, committed crimes, and then were confined in the prison
>system. I didn't have time for sympathy and they were a pain in
>everyone's ass.

We wore different shoes.

Other than revenge I'm inclined to think most jailbirds think what
they did was the easy way.

If I had seen as many problems as you I might not have hopes. But it
will get even worse if we can't change them.

Hugh

[Some dued]

yeah you say you want this but you don't. Schools already call the police on kids just for discussing weapons out loud. I don't know exactly what you think they're going to do that identify all these potential murderers but I can promise you they're going to throw out way more babies than bathwater.

[michael anderson]

a lot of them WERE/HAVE HAD an inpatient *acute* hospitalization at some point i bet. Probably many. I see them every day.

The problem is their illness is chronic...it's not like they have bacterial meningitis and get sent to the hospital, given IV antibiotics, and 'treated' and voila...they are good to go. They are still going to have a chronic psychotic disorder....they were acutely treated in an inpatient facility, then discharged likely to some community based outpt care.

Many of these patients were treated as inpatients. We cant just hold them as an inpatient forever, and despite what some think....that has NEVER been the standard of care.

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

This is a result of a Reagan era policy turning those folks out in the streets.

[Ken Olson]

You are very likely correct. The problem is no supervision after they
become outpatient and then they go off their meds. What was fun inside
was when a guy seemed, at least to us, to be well managed and the psychs
decided to tweak their meds and then they'd go off into their
own world. Hilarity ensued.

[Ken Olson]

On 8/30/2018 6:14 PM, the_andr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> This is a result of a Reagan era policy turning those folks out in the streets.
>

It goes back before Reagan.

[RoddyMcCorley]

On 8/30/2018 10:42 AM, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:

Absolutely fucking brilliant!

--
False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul
with evil.

Pennsylvania - Tá sé difriúil anseo.

[michael anderson]

well every state has different laws with that sort of stuff....here there is an outpt commitment process where if I want to I can discharge them, put them on a long acting injectable, and the probate court will allow a 5 month outpt committment where they are forced to comply with the long acting injectable for 5 months or they get picked back up.


But it's a constant balance between that and the individual freedoms/rights of the patients.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 14:12:15 -0700 (PDT), Some dued
<theodo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>yeah you say you want this but you don't. Schools already call the police o=

>n kids just for discussing weapons out loud.

Then do your thing one step off the schoolyard. Lots of cigarette
butts there, too.

>I don't know exactly what you =
>think they're going to do that identify all these potential murderers but I=

> can promise you they're going to throw out way more babies than bathwater.

Any solution is imperfect. But thinking guns can be controlled is
failure.

We average about 1 mass shooting per day. There are close to
300,000,000 guns.

Hugh

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 15:00:55 -0700 (PDT), michael anderson
<miande...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Many of these patients were treated as inpatients. We cant just hold them =
>as an inpatient forever, and despite what some think....that has NEVER been=
> the standard of care.

The point is that conditions have changed. Ignorance is 99 consecutive
failures and expecting the next to succeed.

We have multiple problems, we need multiple answers.

Hugh

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 05:48:44 -0700 (PDT), michael anderson
<miande...@gmail.com> wrote:

>But it's a constant balance between that and the individual freedoms/rights=
> of the patients. =20

Therein lies the problem. Protecting a crazy person's rights is more
important than letting him loose to kill as he wishes, get his 15
minutes of fame and become a hero to some cult.

Begging the darkstars not to do it won't work. They have to be
convinced otherwise ot steps taken to prevent the possibility. Rights
should be a non-factor.

Hugh

[Some dued]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 8:35:46 AM UTC-5, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 14:12:15 -0700 (PDT), Some dued wrote:
>
> >yeah you say you want this but you don't. Schools already call the police o=
> >n kids just for discussing weapons out loud.
>
> Then do your thing one step off the schoolyard. Lots of cigarette
> butts there, too.
>
> >I don't know exactly what you =
> >think they're going to do that identify all these potential murderers but I=
> > can promise you they're going to throw out way more babies than bathwater.
>
> Any solution is imperfect. But thinking guns can be controlled is
> failure.
>
> We average about 1 mass shooting per day. There are close to
> 300,000,000 guns.
>
> Hugh

Guns are much easier to control than people.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

Yes, all you have to do is let them be. Not so with people.

Hugh

[Ken Olson]

That's assuming they can be found to be picked up.

[Michael Press]

In article <0b00e5d5-4648-40e1...@googlegroups.com>,

"the_andr...@yahoo.com" <the_andr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> This is a result of a Reagan era policy turning those folks out in the streets.

So, is it was before Reagan, who was it?
I guess Johnson. Consistent with buying
black votes with the War on Poverty.
Vote the poor, vote the graveyards,
vote the madhouses, vote the prisons,
vote the non-citizens.

--
Michael Press