Capitalism fighting Jim Crow

[xyzzy]

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/19/18001734/sears-catalog-bankruptcy-jim-crow-racism-mail-order

Puts a whole new spin on Sears, and also on the idea of “Main Street”
losing business to mail order or today the Internet.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 16:30:20 -0000 (UTC), xyzzy <xyzzy...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/19/18001734/sears-catalog-bankruptcy-jim-crow-racism-mail-order
>
>Puts a whole new spin on Sears, and also on the idea of “Main Street”
>losing business to mail order or today the Internet.

Interesting... I saw most of that in the 30s and 40s. But the blacks
had a saying... "If you had ever been a black man on Saturday night
you would never want to be a white man again!"

Of course there is the ancient joke - a man ordered toilet paper from
Sears. Sears would not ship without the number from the catalog. The
man responded, "I would not need the TP if I had the catalog."

But the pendulum swung... ca. 2005, when in Greenville MS for the
annual high school reunion, I went to Sears - I did not see a white
clerk. But they could not have been friendlier or treated me better.

Sears sold Craftsman tools and they were VERY good. If one broke, or
failed for any reason, it was replaced at no charge.

If you were not around blacks in the South before the 1950s, you have
nothing intelligent to say about the matter.

Hugh

[Damon Hynes, Cyclone Ranger]

Internet: Useful. Thanks, X!

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

+1.

Cheers.

[Some dued]

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 12:24:55 PM UTC-5, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>
> If you were not around blacks in the South before the 1950s, you have
> nothing intelligent to say about the matter.
>
> Hugh

Oh, is that how it works?

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

Yep! The rights and wrongs require no intelligence other than
comprehending the obvious - even Fut could see that. And, when limited
by what you have read, you have nothing to offer someone who worked
and sweated with them - and loaned them money, never expecting to get
it back.

Don't pee on an electric fence to see if it is working.

Hugh

[Some dued]

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 1:17:54 PM UTC-5, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 10:30:44 -0700 (PDT), Some dued
>

> >On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 12:24:55 PM UTC-5, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
> >>
> >> If you were not around blacks in the South before the 1950s, you have
> >> nothing intelligent to say about the matter.
> >>
> >> Hugh
> >
> >Oh, is that how it works?
>
> Yep! The rights and wrongs require no intelligence other than
> comprehending the obvious - even Fut could see that. And, when limited
> by what you have read, you have nothing to offer someone who worked
> and sweated with them - and loaned them money, never expecting to get
> it back.
>
> Don't pee on an electric fence to see if it is working.
>
> Hugh

I realize I have nothing intelligent to say on the matter, but I would imagine a black person from the 1940s south might say if you weren't a black person in the South before the 1950s you have nothing intelligent to say on the matter.

[jim brown]

I saw that on facebook. I wonder if Sears is given too much credit. Was this part of the design, or an unintended consequence?

[xyzzy]

The article said it was an unintended consequence, but when Sears found out they supported it (for example by showing their black customers how to bypass Jim Crow postal clerks who wouldn't sell them money orders).

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

On 2018-10-22, jim brown <jimbr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 9:30:22 AM UTC-7, xyzzy wrote:
>> https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/19/18001734/sears-catalog-bankruptcy-jim-crow-racism-mail-order
>>

>> Puts a whole new spin on Sears, and also on the idea of ???Main Street???

>> losing business to mail order or today the Internet.
>
>
> I saw that on facebook. I wonder if Sears is given too much credit. Was this part of the design, or an unintended consequence?

They paid for a bunch of schools in the south for black kids, so I
suspect if it was not the original intent they later embraced it.

Anyone who claims capitalism has been bad for the poor and
disadvantaged should be either 1) appalled at their own stupidity or
2) ashamed of their politics.

--
Life isn't fair, but it's good. -- Regina Brett

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

> showing their black customers how to bypass Jim Crow
> postal clerks

That makes smile.

Growing up on the tail end of that stuff with tons of overt racism toward blacks was a pretty frustrating thing. I went to school with some gifted kids who were doomed because their own parents were unable to help or guide them around the many barriers they faced.

My friends whose parents were college educated had a much better chance of overcoming it because their parents knew the way forward.

[Tom Enright]

Capitalism punishes discrimination, it is an economically unsound idea.

-TE

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 11:25:48 -0700 (PDT), Some dued
<theodo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 1:17:54 PM UTC-5, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 10:30:44 -0700 (PDT), Some dued
>>
>> >On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 12:24:55 PM UTC-5, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>> >>
>> >> If you were not around blacks in the South before the 1950s, you have
>> >> nothing intelligent to say about the matter.
>> >>
>> >> Hugh
>> >
>> >Oh, is that how it works?
>>
>> Yep! The rights and wrongs require no intelligence other than
>> comprehending the obvious - even Fut could see that. And, when limited
>> by what you have read, you have nothing to offer someone who worked
>> and sweated with them - and loaned them money, never expecting to get
>> it back.
>>
>> Don't pee on an electric fence to see if it is working.
>>
>> Hugh
>
>I realize I have nothing intelligent to say on the matter,

...and you said it anyhow.

>but I would imagine a black person from the 1940s south might say if you weren't a black person in the South before the 1950s you have nothing intelligent to say on the matter.

The blacks had their own places - cafes, churches, schools. They were
very satisfied because they grew up in the system and knew nothing
else. Most had jobs - if they needed food, clothing, money, they could
get it at almost any white people's house - just like libs do for them
now but libs are so dumb they have to get government to do it.

People like you have nothing intelligent to say about the issue
because you usually want to argue about justification. Speaking as a
Christian there is no justification. But blacks were not out violently
protesting, they had jobs if they wanted to work, they respected the
country and its symbols - and libs changed all that for the worse.

As for me I NEVER mistreated a black person. I played softball with
them after I delivered the newspapers, I worked with them, I hired
them, I coached their sports, I called their games, a black lady
babysat our kids - how much of that has anyone else on rsfc ever done?

I was there, hoss.

Hugh

Hugh

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 13:10:35 -0700 (PDT), "the_andr...@yahoo.com"
<the_andr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> showing their black customers how to bypass Jim Crow=20

>> postal clerks
>
>That makes smile.
>

>Growing up on the tail end of that stuff with tons of overt racism toward b=

>lacks was a pretty frustrating thing.

Any dramatic change in the social system brings some undesirable
events. We see the same eruption in the change from Americanism to
socialism now. It's really pretty obvious.

>I went to school with some gifted kid=
>s who were doomed because their own parents were unable to help or guide th=
>em around the many barriers they faced.=20

So the better ones, white and black, figured out their own course -
and many of us were very successful. I never had a guidance counselor.
One doesn't have to fail because his dad was raised on a farm.

>My friends whose parents were college educated had a much better chance of =

>overcoming it because their parents knew the way forward.

Different strokes - I don't recall knowing anyone whose parents went
to college when I was college age.

Unarguably two parents and college usually are a big help, but panacea
they are not.

Hugh

[tim.vanwa...@gmail.com]

Sure, in a textbook Tom. I’m real life, capitalism helped maintain Jim Crow because you’d have to be a really bad businessman to alienate your primary clientele or, even worse, risk your entire enterprise by inviting mob action.

In reality, it took capitalism and government intervention in the marketplace. The latter occurred though government subsidization of rural postal delivery, and even more importantly, government guaranteeing access and safety of postal delivery, that allowed capitalism to win here. Private enterprise could not have done that alone - the same economic and societal pressures would have doomed private delivery services that would have served black customers in the south.

[Tom Enright]

You make a common mistake. Private business was often forced by the government
to discriminate, it wasn't the other 'way round. You still see it today.

-TE

[jim brown]

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 3:36:48 PM UTC-7, tim.vanwa...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sure, in a textbook Tom. I’m real life, capitalism helped maintain Jim Crow because you’d have to be a really bad businessman to alienate your primary clientele or,

You mean like the mainstream press? At least with half of their primary clientele? Of course, most newspapers have gone or are on the brink of extinction. Even in our small town, the editor not only frames the editorial page around his liberal politics, but the entire paper.


So, yes, it does happen.

[tim.vanwa...@gmail.com]

My town’s newspaper is the most conservative in the country in one of the most conservative states and it’s dying too. So, that is a pretty simplistic argument.

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

So all those restaurants that used to hang the "irish not welcome" signs were following some government edict?

Cheers.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 15:36:46 -0700 (PDT), tim.vanwa...@gmail.com
wrote:

>Sure, in a textbook Tom. I=E2=80=99m real life, capitalism helped maintain =
>Jim Crow because you=E2=80=99d have to be a really bad businessman to alien=
>ate your primary clientele or, even worse, risk your entire enterprise by i=
>nviting mob action.=20
>
>In reality, it took capitalism and government intervention in the marketpla=
>ce. The latter occurred though government subsidization of rural postal del=
>ivery, and even more importantly, government guaranteeing access and safety=
> of postal delivery, that allowed capitalism to win here. Private enterpris=
>e could not have done that alone - the same economic and societal pressures=
> would have doomed private delivery services that would have served black c=
>ustomers in the south.

I never argued that government was not necessary in some instances,
just that it was the most expensive and inefficient way to do
business.

You did not mention TVA which is another matter that private
enterprise could not handle. And, if government was not involved
interstate highways might not meet at the state line. :)

Both RFD and TVA are based on a demonstrated need. Welfare is based on
both need and if you ain't worth a shit and are on drugs you can still
get it.

Government is responsible for guaranteeing equal opportunity, not
equality. Blacks had less opportunity in the South but they rarely had
equal opportunity anywhere. Have you seen what they did to Detroit and
Baltimore? I have. And I know about Selma and Tuscaloosa - a cousin
was the field officer in charge of the military both places. But
neither was burned and ransacked.

Hugh

[jim brown]

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 9:09:28 PM UTC-7, tim.vanwa...@gmail.com wrote:
> My town’s newspaper is the most conservative in the country in one of the most conservative states and it’s dying too. So, that is a pretty simplistic argument.

Same thing, other side. Why be a "conservative newspaper" either? Report the news, let others decide for themselves. Instead they all want to shove their ideas down the throats of the public under the guise of Freedom of the Press.

Dumn.


My ex wife has a clothing store...she's pretty conservative but never utters a word about politics, never lets anyone put up any type of political sign in her yard or in her store. Why risk pissing off customers?

[Ken Olson]

On 10/23/2018 6:51 AM, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
> And, if government was not involved
> interstate highways might not meet at the state line.:)

We have that by us with secondary roads at township boundaries.