Kashoggi Update

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

So instead of dying from running into an interrogators first, it’s now claimed he died from a choke hold gone bad.

Also, apparently they took his clothes before they murdered him.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/10/22/middleeast/saudi-operative-jamal-khashoggi-clothes/index.html

[xyzzy]

The taking his clothes thing is strange. I thought maybe they did that so they could claim to have video of him walking out of the consulate, but they never made that claim. Maybe they looked at the video and realized the disguise wasn't convincing enough.

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

I think that’s exactly why they did it.

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

Listening to the NPR car in parking garage report right now.

Also, this is a good question, https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/why-would-the-washington-post-hire-someone-like-jamal-khashoggi/

[tim.vanwa...@gmail.com]

The Saudis have done a masterful job of trying to differentiate themselves from the Muslim Brotherhood. In reality, as crazy as it sounds, the Muslim Brotherhood is less extreme than the what the Saudis have peddled for centuries. It is undoubtably more liberal than Wahhabism. And while the Muslim Brotherhood plays footsie with terrorist groups, so do the Saudis. On the surface, the state now condemns terrorist groups, but you have to know most of the funding for Shia-based terror groups still comes from Saudi citizens. And for decades, they’ve used religious extremism as the opiate of the masses to distract the average citizen from the absurd social and economic inequalities in the kingdom.

Much of the country’s intelligencia has a Muslim Brotherhood background. As long as they just taught in schools and didn’t threatened the power structure, they were a valuable tool for the royal family. Until they opposed the Gulf War, the Saudis were their primary financial backer. And guys like Khashoggi all had patrons within the royal family. The problem for him was that he was attached to members now out of power.

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

I don't know enough to argue (but this is RSFC!), but it would seem the Saudi government has been much more liberal than sharia, no?

[Tom Enright]

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 6:18:08 PM UTC-4, the_andr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Listening to the NPR car in parking garage report right now.
>
> Also, this is a good question, https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/why-would-the-washington-post-hire-someone-like-jamal-khashoggi/

The alliance of some leftists and Islamic supremacists is a decades-old problem.
They have the same enemies.

-TE

[tim.vanwa...@gmail.com]

No. The Saudis have the most strict sharia law implementation on earth. You can’t even Possess a Bible in the country. Conversion to another religion is punishable by death. Heck, even the Taliban thinks the Saudis might think about lightening up a bit.

[Tom Enright]

I don't think the Saudi's Wahhabism is worse than the Taliban it's more
like 'just as crazy.' Death for apostasy is a pretty mainstream belief
among Muslims, at least outside the West.

-TE

[RoddyMcCorley]

On 10/22/2018 9:07 PM, tim.vanwa...@gmail.com wrote:
> No. The Saudis have the most strict sharia law implementation on earth. You can’t even Possess a Bible in the country. Conversion to another religion is punishable by death. Heck, even the Taliban thinks the Saudis might think about lightening up a bit.
>

:-)

--
False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul
with evil.

Pennsylvania - Tá sé difriúil anseo.

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

"I don't think the Saudi's Wahhabism is worse than the Taliban it's more
like 'just as crazy.' Death for apostasy is a pretty mainstream belief
among Muslims, at least outside the West."

So what you're saying, Tom, is that there's been a decades-long alliance between some rightists and Islamic extremists. One that's actually and factually tangible, verifiable, objective - you know, exists outside of winger fever dreams?

Boy, you really walked into that one dude. It's probably because they have common enemies - athiests, agnostics, free-thinkers, anti-authoritarians, scientists, academics, folks that don't think government and religion mix well, etc.

Cheers.

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

LOL. I was thinking Egypt, typing Saudi. Duh.

[tim.vanwa...@gmail.com]

That’s a step way too far. Support for the Saudi state has been pretty nonpartisan in the US and it has nothing to do with shared base ideologies. It is the simple fact that American interests in the Middle East revolve around 2 things - oil and Israel - in that order. During the Cold War, ensuring the gulf oil supply was vital to our strategic national interests. Since then, it has been vital to our economic interests - keeping the global capitalist system healthy. The secondary interest is the protection of the state of Israel. We, and Israel, long tolerated the fact the the Saudis officially provided most of the financial support to Hamas and the MB. In reality, while those represent an existential threat to the average Israeli, they are no threat to the existence of the state itself. And during the Cold War, the MB was an ally as the were vehemently anti-Communist. That helped push Egypt back into our fold. It wasn’t until the MB was perceived by the Saudis as a threat to their political power did they become our enemies.

This is just simple Realpolitiks. The Saudis are the most extreme Islamists in the region, but they keep the oil flowing and have no interest in really pushing Israel into the sea. Thus, in the new world order, they are important as a buffer against Iran (who ironically should have been our best ally in the region but we screwed that one up - and probably never could have had both Saudi Arabia and Iran as friends).

All of this is why Obama failed so badly in the Middle East. While morally and ideologically, support for democratic movements there are the right thing to do, they place American strategic interests at risk. He quickly found out the hard way, but the result was a failed state in Libya, a disastrous civil war in Syria, and an Egypt that required a coup to prevent a genocidal bloodbath.

[xyzzy]

Thanks your posts on this are educational news in putting the pieces
together. Though I think Bush and Obama are jointly responsible for the
state of the Middle East today. The Iraq War broke the order of the region
and started the dominos toppling. Obama then encouraged the next ones to
topple.

[Tom Enright]

Ah...if you didn't include my quoted post and my name I'd think that you
were responding to an entirely different post.

To review:

1. Death for apostasy is a mainstream Muslim belief. It is not unique
to Wahhabism.

2. There exists an alliance between some on the far left with Islamic
terrorism, which does not exist on the right. If you you'd like
examples I can supply them. I would assume that some on the far right
support the mass murder of Jews and the socialist state as do Islamic
terrorists, but like most far-right delusions they have no large support
among the citizenry, academia, the media or government.

-TE




-TE
>
> Cheers.

[plai...@gmail.com]

2. There exists an alliance between some on the far left with Islamic
terrorism, which does not exist on the right. If you you'd like
examples I can supply them. I would assume that some on the far right
support the mass murder of Jews and the socialist state as do Islamic
terrorists, but like most far-right delusions they have no large support
among the citizenry, academia, the media or government.

Please do supply your examples and explain why they are different than the far right alliances you mentioned. Personally, I think neither one has significant support.

[Tom Enright]

Are you sure you are responding to the right comment? Seriously. There are
no 'far right alliances' with Islamic terrorism, at least none that I am aware
of and neither did I mention any such alliances.

I won't include instances of the left aligning with Palestinian terrorists
as that is generally accepted and Palestinian terrorists while Islamist,
have more nationalistic goals. "Queers for Palestine." FFS.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/sep/30/islam.religion

What do the far left and Islamists have in common? Not a lot, you may say, but you would be wrong. Despite being ideologically at the extremes of the political spectrum, they in fact share one worrying trait.

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/islamism-and-the-left

"Most leftists have no difficulty opposing Hindu nationalists, zealous Buddhist monks, and the messianic Zionists of the settler movement. Why won’t they take a firm stance against Islamists?"


https://www.cnn.com/2016/08/30/health/gw-hires-former-islamic-extremist/index.html

"(CNN)George Washington Univers
ity has hired a former Islamic extremist to work at its center on homeland security -- a man who once denounced the United States and made threats against the creators of the TV series "South Park" for depicting the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-terrorists-lawyer/

"Her client is Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind cleric who was convicted of plotting to blow up New York City landmarks. And the attorney general says that helping the sheik get a message to his followers makes Stewart a co-conspirator in terrorism."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/senate-dem-hopeful-kyrsten-sinema-promoted-events-featuring-convicted-terror-lawyer

"Last April, FBI agents arrested Stewart at her Brooklyn home. As they took her away in handcuffs, the FBI invaded and searched her Manhattan office. Her crime? Doing her job for the past 27 years as an outspoken criminal defense lawyer."

https://www.start.umd.edu/publication/emerging-red-green-alliance-where-political-islam-meets-radical-left

" In this article, we use framing theory to examine the contemporary convergence of political Islam and the radical Left. Both radical Leftists and Islamists have utilized the master frame of anti-globalization/anti-capitalism and the master frame of anti-colonialism/anti-imperialism to elicit support from the widest possible range of people. The emerging Red-Green alliance presents a complex challenge that will require careful attention from U.S. and European policymakers."

===================================




-TE