Wolverines Howling
samson
http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/10002326/Report:-Michigan-players-
allege-NCAA-infractions
DETROIT (AP) - Several Michigan football players claim the program
regularly violates NCAA rules limiting how much time they can spend on
training and practice sessions, according to a published report.
Players from the 2008 and 2009 teams told the Detroit Free Press for a
story published on the newspaper's Web site on Saturday that the amount
of time they spend on football activities during the season and in the
offseason greatly exceeds the limits. The players spoke to the newspaper
on condition of anonymity because they feared repercussions from
coaches.
Coach Rich Rodriguez and the university's compliance director, Judy Van
Horn, both denied that the football program was violating NCAA rules.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
Chris Bellomy
You'd think they'd have more to show for all that work.
But yeah, this will take RichRod down if the story
holds up.
cb
Jaybyrd
the sad part isn't michigan cheating.. it's the lazyness of the
players in using the media to try to get out of hard work.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
well, as justin boren said, they've lost that family feelin' ...
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
I sorta feel bad for the guy.
unklbob
Indeed.
The story last year was the defection of certain players over
"coaching philosophy" read: "He wanted us to work harder than we
wanted to work." The current story smells of revenge.
Jon Enslin
I agree. Everyone knows the official rules are followed with a wink
and a nod, and that "voluntary" workouts are not really voluntary. RR
is hardly the only coach to do this, and I'm sure he did it at WVU
too.
Jon
mianderson
> allege-NCAA-infractions
>
> DETROIT (AP) - Several Michigan football players claim the program
> regularly violates NCAA rules limiting how much time they can spend on
> training and practice sessions, according to a published report.
It's Division I football! It ain't intramurals!
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
I spent a year doing NCAA compliance at Cal in the mid-1990s. Those
rules are absolute. Nobody dares break them -- or at least that was my
experience 15 years ago.
Jon Enslin
They are meeting the literal rules. But everyone knows that the
voluntary off-season weight program has a lot of mandatory aspects to
it...if you know what I mean.
Jon
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
> http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/10002326/Report:-Michigan-players-
> allege-NCAA-infractions
>
I'm actually impressed ... mia became a UGA fan and they went from pre-
season #1 to nowhere, bet on Tiger with a lead and he lost his first
tournament while leading on the final day, decided this year to cheer
for the LLWS juggernaut Warner Robins and they collapsed blowing a 5
run lead in the fifth only to lose in the sixth, and now as a fan of
Michigan he might bring that program to its knees as well.
Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!
Goro
wrote:
He must have bet on the Raiders in SuperBowel XXXVII, too...
-goro-
Jaybyrd
are the wolvereens still "we"?
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
>
> He must have bet on the Raiders in SuperBowel XXXVII, too...
>
I might think he's immature and has no real-world experience, but I
don't think that even metro mike would call the game that what's-his-
name did.
The Raiders best chance was the year before ...
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
Playing a sport at the Division I level is literally a full-time job,
even in the off-season. I think the issue here is abuse of the
"voluntary" programs.
But who knows? What's most clear is that Rich-Rod's methods aren't
popular in Ann Arbor, because this is not the first time players have
commented on his management style.
There's a pattern here, and Michigan's reputation is suffering for
it.
Jim Brown
I wonder if its just dislike for the coach and wanting him out.
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
> I wonder if its just dislike for the coach and wanting him out.
That will become evident on the field ... either a few bad apples, or
a major problem with his team buying in.
However, it is odd coming from a program such as Michigan ... really,
the guys who go to Michigan are complaining about how much they need
to work, especially coming off a 3-9 season???
shiite
wrote:
What's more impressive is your stalking of Mia. What's up with that?
Jon Enslin
No kidding. Between Pauli and him it's kind of pathetic.
Jon
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
>
> What's more impressive is your stalking of Mia. What's up with that?
It's fun to dispute his claims of being right (i'm bored today and
doing a lot of PC work that is "do something, then wait") ... his
track record is quite impressive.
Jim Brown
wrote:
I think that's EXACTLY the type of team to expect it from. They have
a history of phenomenal talent that didnt HAVE to work that hard to
win. Its the mid-level teams that cant compete w/recruiting yet can
win some games that have the work ethics. That's why I'm more of a
fan of the Wisconsins, Iowas, Mississippis, Kansas's, TTs, etc than I
am of the tOSU's, LSU's, Tejas's, USC's. While recruiting is a big
part of the job, we dont get the pick of the litters like these
schools. Many of the players these mid-level schools put in the NFL
would have never had a chance at the elites. But they work their
asses off and listen to their coaches and maybe, just maybe, they
have a shot.
I went to high school with Bryce Paup(N.Iowa, Green Bay, Buffalo,
Jax). He was not an elite player. Hell, he wasnt the best player on
our teams. But he was good enough to get a shollie, worked his butt
off and UNI and made some serious bucks as well as NFL Def POY.
mianderson
wrote:
> On Aug 30, 4:31 pm, shiite <uncdoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > What's more impressive is your stalking of Mia. What's up with that?
>
> It's fun to dispute his claims of being right
dude, I freakin own you.....If I smacked you(or pauli) around anymore
I would be arrested for assault......
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
> dude, I freakin own you.....If I smacked you(or pauli) around anymore
> I would be arrested for assault......
>
LOL. You mean like how I've called out your tiger predicition, your
warner robins debacle, and similar losses, bad predictions, or just
dumn statements in the past? Right.
mianderson
wrote:
ummm.....those were public(in rsfc at least) predictions/bets.....I
acknowledged those losses.......
But when me and you go hth, it's always the same pattern. I post
about something, you(for god knows why) decide to follow up with some
nonsensical comment, and I easily shoot it down.....it's easy but
rather tiring/boring........
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
> But when me and you go hth, it's always the same pattern. I post
> about something, you(for god knows why) decide to follow up with some
> nonsensical comment, and I easily shoot it down.....it's easy but
> rather tiring/boring........
LOL. If your arguments against tangible evidence held any weight,
then I'd agree. However, ignoring threads when you're called out,
lacking tangible evidence to support your arguments, and throwing out
red herrings in an attempt to transpose the subject matter are not
effective.
But then, you can show evidence of when we went hth and you won,
right?
mianderson
wrote:
lmfao.....you are slapped around so much that 85% of our arguments
have nothing to do with "tangible evidence".....I will make a
statement, you will(again, for god knows what reason since we are
talking college football and you are a fan of the bigleast which Im
pretty sure doesnt play cf) will respond with some question meaning to
be a dick, and I'll give a short but effective reply shooting you
down....as if Im talking to an illegal or beggar or something at a
traffic light.....
no harm in that, but it is what it is...........
Anthony Summers
wrote...
> But then, you can show evidence of when we went hth and you won,
> right?
It wins every time you respond.
--
A. Summers || summerstorm0007-->at<--yahoo.com
Vijay Ramanujan
> You'd think they'd have more to show for all that work.
>
> But yeah, this will take RichRod down if the story
> holds up.
What does "hold up" mean?
I have no more information than is out there, but I would bet this:
Michigan players *did* exceed 20 hours/week.
Rodriguez *did* know who was showing up for voluntary workouts and who
wasn't, and the guys who were skipping were demoted on the depth chart
or given lectures about "buying in" and "doing the work".
I would bet that the same thing is true at nearly every major college
program.
And I bet that if the NCAA comes snooping, Rodriguez will say the
demotions weren't because they skipped voluntary workouts, it's
because they weren't as up on the offense, weren't as fit, whatever.
Which, of course, is a direct result of skipping the voluntary
sessions, but wouldn't qualify as a punishment that basically makes
the voluntary mandatory.
If there's a "voluntary" QB/WR walkthrough and the one QB who doesn't
show up keeps screwing up on Tuesday and the QB coach pulls him aside
and tells him that he's not working as hard as the other guys and
that's why he's behind, does that effectively make the voluntary
workout mandatory?
I would bet that they have only the 20 hours (or 8 hours) of
"mandatory" team events, stuff which you can get suspended or removed
from a travel roster for missing. And after that ... well, those
additional hours are just because there is no way in hell you are
going to meet the training staff's goals for you if you don't put in a
ton of extra effort, there's no way you'll know the offense if you
don't meet up with teammates for film study, etc. They may only
"require" 20 hours of team meetings, but then they set goals that they
know damn well cannot be achieved within the structure of that 20 hour
schedule. And they announce "Coach Barwis (strength and conditioning)
will be available from 7-9am and 5-7pm on Monday thru Friday" and ...
shockingly ... 90% of the team shows up.
Someone on a Michigan forum linked a recent survey of 1-A athletes
that indicated the average 1-A football player puts in 45 hours/week
of football related activity. I doubt Michigan is much higher than
that, but if it comes back that Michigan is right at 45, and the NCAA
mandates 20, it looks really bad.
Vijay R.
StephenJ
> On Aug 30, 1:08 am, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>
> > You'd think they'd have more to show for all that work.
>
> > But yeah, this will take RichRod down if the story
> > holds up.
>
> What does "hold up" mean?
> I have no more information than is out there, but I would bet this:
> Michigan players *did* exceed 20 hours/week.
> Rodriguez *did* know who was showing up for voluntary workouts and who
> wasn't, and the guys who were skipping were demoted on the depth chart
> or given lectures about "buying in" and "doing the work".
> I would bet that the same thing is true at nearly every major college
> program.
... but if it's happening everywhere else, how come there's only a
complaint coming out of Michigan?
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
> lmfao.....you are slapped around so much that 85% of our arguments
> have nothing to do with "tangible evidence".....I will make a
> statement, you will(again, for god knows what reason since we are
> talking college football and you are a fan of the bigleast which Im
> pretty sure doesnt play cf)
Mikey, mikey, mikey ... I am a WVU fan. I'm pretty sure they not only
play college football, but they've done pretty well the past 5 years
or so. Even you acknowledge them ...
"most sec fans don't even know what teams are in the
bigleast besides maybe west virginia, syracuse, and pitt..... "
which is almost half the conference.
"I always make a point to put aside wvu"
"The Big East can't compare - their fans (outside of WVU)"
etc.
> will respond with some question meaning to
> be a dick,
Nah, just pointing out how ridiculous you are.
> and I'll give a short but effective reply shooting you
> down....as if Im talking to an illegal or beggar or something at a
> traffic light.....
You really haven't shot down much of anything.
>
> no harm in that, but it is what it is...........
Of course.
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
> It wins every time you respond.
>
Coming from you, this is a classic.
Jon Enslin
Because of the "change in culture" that RR brought. RR is like Rodney
Dangerfield in Caddyshack coming to the stuffy old country club.
Jon
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
> Someone on a Michigan forum linked a recent survey of 1-A athletes
> that indicated the average 1-A football player puts in 45 hours/week
> of football related activity. I doubt Michigan is much higher than
> that, but if it comes back that Michigan is right at 45, and the NCAA
> mandates 20, it looks really bad.
>
ESPN radio had a spot earlier which basically said that most programs
probably violate the rule or come close, but in these accusations,
they're talking about almost 3x the legal boundary.
Vijay Ramanujan
wrote:
The initial article tallied up to about 45 hours, which is right on
what the survey indicated most players felt they were putting in.
Included in the 45 hours, it would appear, is Sunday night dinner
(Rodriguez has the position coaches have dinner with their players and
the coaches' families, I think).
And on the other question, Jon is right. Carr's last few years were
marked by a rapidly increasing tolerance for laziness and
insubordination. It really started in 2005, talent and veteran
leadership hid it in 2006, and you could see it again in 2007. And
it's not surprising that the biggest batch of defections were on OL
(Boren, Mitchell, Wermers, O'Neill) because that's the position group
where there was howling in the later Carr years that the players were
just not working hard.
Vijay R.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
Interesting analogy, but maybe he's Bill Callahan coming to Nebraska
instead.
Jon Enslin
Callahan wasn't a good coach. RR has proven he can win.
Jon
Chris Bellomy
> On Aug 30, 1:08 am, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>
>> You'd think they'd have more to show for all that work.
>>
>> But yeah, this will take RichRod down if the story
>> holds up.
>
> What does "hold up" mean?
What I meant was simply this: if the charges are true
that RichRod was willfully and knowingly violating
NCAA rules, he's outta there.
The hidden implication, Vijay, is a positive one for
your school -- that it won't put up with coaches
tarnishing its reputation by operating outside the
rules.
cb
Chris Bellomy
So had Dennis Franchione.
cb
Vijay Ramanujan
Understood, I'm just asking how much of it do you think has to hold up
for that to happen?
I think the most likely scenario is that what they find is that
Michigan is skirting the rules in the same way that almost every
program skirts the rules. Lots and lots of voluntary sessions run by
S&C staff, and players who find that skipping the sessions means they
don't get to play so much and aren't so popular with their teammates.
Basically, something that people who wish to criticize the program can
point to as a violation, and people who wish to defend the program can
point to as status quo for 1-A football.
I think it would have to go well beyond that for Rodriguez to get in
trouble with the AD.
Vijay R.
tom_sa...@yahoo.com
> I think it would have to go well beyond that for Rodriguez to get in
> trouble with the AD.
>
I understand that things might have been different under Carr, but it
seems very odd that there are several who are outspoken ... or at
least willing to talk ... about the program in a negative light now.
Michigan wasn't a chump program trying to make it and they had top-
rated talent coming in, so it just seems odd that that talent would
suddenly cry foul. Or, at least, enough of them to make the news.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
Like when he "won" at home over sucky Pitt with a BCS title game slot
on the line?
Yeah ...
Chris Bellomy
> On Aug 30, 10:52 pm, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>> Vijay Ramanujan wrote, On 8/30/09 5:49 PM:
>>
>>> On Aug 30, 1:08 am, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>>>> You'd think they'd have more to show for all that work.
>>>> But yeah, this will take RichRod down if the story
>>>> holds up.
>>> What does "hold up" mean?
>> What I meant was simply this: if the charges are true
>> that RichRod was willfully and knowingly violating
>> NCAA rules, he's outta there.
>>
>> The hidden implication, Vijay, is a positive one for
>> your school -- that it won't put up with coaches
>> tarnishing its reputation by operating outside the
>> rules.
>
> Understood, I'm just asking how much of it do you think has to hold up
> for that to happen?
It's a classic "what did he know and when did he know
it" trap. He has to be very careful with this because
any attempt at a cover-up will almost certainly unravel.
If the violations were rampant and he knew, he'd better
get to apologizing real quick, 'cause it only gets worse
from there if he doesn't.
> I think the most likely scenario is that what they find is that
> Michigan is skirting the rules in the same way that almost every
> program skirts the rules. Lots and lots of voluntary sessions run by
> S&C staff, and players who find that skipping the sessions means they
> don't get to play so much and aren't so popular with their teammates.
I can't imagine why you'd think this. It may happen
this way everywhere, but nobody else's program is
leaking like the Titanic about it, not just from
current players but from former ones as well. I
guarantee you that not all of these players are
unaware what goes on at other programs. There's
something to these allegations that goes beyond
the pale.
cb
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
Pattern: Michigan people don't like RR.
If he doesn't win ten games this year, he's going to get canned in
favor of a real "Michigan man".
Vijay Ramanujan
I think that because I pretty much know what went on at Michigan
because the program is chatty beyond belief, with constant interviews,
video updates, press at practices, fan walkthroughs, etc. And
everywhere I turn, I see articles describing exactly the stuff that
went on at Michigan.
For example, The Detroit Free Press contacted some MSU players, and
they all said no, we don't do anything like that! Of course, two weeks
ago their QB did a diary like entry for a website where he said a
"typical" day was 14 hours of football, and a few days after that
there was an article about how they (MSU players) see all the articles
about Michigan and the S&C coach Mike Barwis, and they are putting in
the same hours and doing the same work as Michigan.
Why are Michigan players complaining? First off, it looked like some
of the current players didn't realize they were complaining. A couple
of the quotes were from players practically bragging about how much
progress they'd made in the off-season. And the ex-players? The phrase
"country club" has been used about 1000 times in the last 18 months to
describe the dying days of Lloyd Carr's tenure. If you were recruited
into the Country Club, wound up in boot camp and left, you might want
in on that article about excessive practice.
Vijay R.
Jefferson N. Glapski
Did Carr get fired when Marcus Ray took payments and played? How about
Woodson when he took $12,000 and played? Michigan's played so long
without winning, they'll overlook the rape of their mothers with
herpetic cock to get a first down.
We've played Michigan 4 times when they've played ineligible players,
all under Carr.
barc...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Interview with the Authors of the Free Press article
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
> Interview with the Authors of the Free Press article
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxNicAxi9QE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esp...
Yo ho yo ho ... 3-9, who cares?
Vijay Ramanujan
anymore.
I can't waste my time with liars.
Vijay R.
GM Collins
> ... but if it's happening everywhere else, how come there's only a
> complaint coming out of Michigan?
Because Rosenberg is a complete douche and has had it out for Rodriguez ever
since he got hired.
Ike
>
> Pattern: Michigan people don't like RR.
>
> If he doesn't win ten games this year, he's going to get canned in
> favor of a real "Michigan man".
He does seem to have his defenders. People are still blaming Carr for
the current problems.
Their fan site message boards are real eye-openers.
--
Yrs.,
Ike
********************************************************
"Excuse me," he said. "But didn't the Japanese lose the war?"
********************************************************
Ike
At least not with 3-9 as a result.
It's amazing though, that even *this* mess is somehow Carr's fault, in many
fan's minds.
But regardless, I am sure nothing will come of it.
Ike
The *everybody is doing it" defense is the line of the day on the many
fan sites.
Almost as if they are already admitting that things were done.
This entire situation is getting weirder by the day.
Anthony Summers
> Did Carr get fired when Marcus Ray took payments and played? How about
> Woodson when he took $12,000 and played?
You have cites to back up these two accusations, of course.
--
A. Summers || summerstorm0007-->at<--yahoo.com
Chris Bellomy
> Oh, and there's Glapski with a reminder of why I don't post her
> anymore.
> I can't waste my time with liars.
Want a copy of my killfile?
cb
Chris Bellomy
> The *everybody is doing it" defense is the line of the day on the many
> fan sites.
> Almost as if they are already admitting that things were done.
Look, my wolverinian buddies... everybody pays players, too,
and everybody knows it. Enforcement is a kabuki for the sake
of image management... as long as nobody goes overboard or
gets too sloppy/careless in how the compensation gets doled
out, nothing happens.
It's the ones who can't keep it out of the papers who get
in trouble.
UM is now staring right into the glare of a "lack of
institutional control" charge. That's the last thing
any program wants, especially one that prides itself
on its apparent cleanliness. This isn't going away.
cb
Anthony Summers
Your killfile has been known to be errant in the past.
shiite
<jeffersonWE...@PENNSTATEglapski.com> wrote:
> Michigan's played so long
> without winning, they'll overlook the rape of their mothers with
> herpetic cock to get a first down.
Thanks. Now, every time I see Michigan move the chains, I'll have this
disturbing mental image.
Chris Bellomy
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:41:32 -0500, Chris Bellomy wrote...
>
>> Vijay Ramanujan wrote, On 8/31/09 6:42 AM:
>>> Oh, and there's Glapski with a reminder of why I don't post her
>>> anymore.
>>> I can't waste my time with liars.
>> Want a copy of my killfile?
>
> Your killfile has been known to be errant in the past.
I would reply to this, but you're in my killfile.
cb
Kyle T. Jones
>>
>>> You'd think they'd have more to show for all that work.
>>> But yeah, this will take RichRod down if the story
>>> holds up.
>> What does "hold up" mean?
>> Michigan players *did* exceed 20 hours/week.
>> Rodriguez *did* know who was showing up for voluntary workouts and who
>> wasn't, and the guys who were skipping were demoted on the depth chart
>> or given lectures about "buying in" and "doing the work".
>> I would bet that the same thing is true at nearly every major college
>> program.
>
> complaint coming out of Michigan?
During any regime change, especially one that basically tells a bunch of
3- and 4-star players who have been on the team a year or two "sorry,
you aren't right for our new system", you're gonna get a bunch of very
unhappy players.
See Justin Boran. "But Coach Carr let me just use the stationary bike!!!"
One of the key athletes making these claims is a guy who has already
transfered to Colorado. I don't know anything more than you, but I bet
if names come out, we're looking at a bunch of upperclassmen Carr
recruited who have many reasons to be bitter - not the least of which is
that they've lost the chance to start to two consecutive highly rated
classes of "smaller, quicker" dewds.
And, uh, if you think the "voluntary" mandatory shit isn't going on at
every major program in the country, you're bonkers. Hell, they pull the
same type of shit in high school sports.
Cheers.
Anthony Summers
What?
Kyle T. Jones
Like USC "winning" against Stanford? I forget, does USC play in the BCS
championship game if they win that game? Or was that the Oregon State
upset... twice? Or all three?
Was sucky Pitt a bigger upset than Stanford over USC or Ole Miss over
Florida?
Yeah, those guys (Carrol/Meyer) are just horrible coaches...
Cheers.
Anthony Summers
> Like USC "winning" against Stanford? I forget, does USC play in the BCS
> championship game if they win that game? Or was that the Oregon State
> upset... twice? Or all three?
>
> Was sucky Pitt a bigger upset than Stanford over USC or Ole Miss over
> Florida?
>
> Yeah, those guys (Carrol/Meyer) are just horrible coaches...
>
> Cheers.
I forsee a 'hook'd' claim in your future.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
I'd equate the Rich-Rod WVU/Pitt loss to USC's 2006 loss to UCLA,
actually -- last game of the season with the spot in the title game on
the line. No excuse for it, whatsoever.
Then again, Carroll also has two AP titles and seven straight BCS bowl
appearances to his credit -- and Rich-Rod doesn't. FWIW, Meyer has an
undefeated season at Utah and a couple of AP titles, too. Their
ledgers are extremely over-balanced in favor of their brilliance; not
so much with R2A2.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
Isn't Sl1ck in all our killfiles?
Vijay Ramanujan
My stupid ISP dropped Usenet support, and I grew accustomed to google.
Ick.
Vijay R.
Vijay Ramanujan
> The *everybody is doing it" defense is the line of the day on the many
> fan sites.
> Almost as if they are already admitting that things were done.
I don't read the sites you are most likely reading. The one that I pay
attention to, the "line of the day" is mostly a pretty mundane
variant ... it's not "everyone is breaking that rule", it's "everyone
is interpreting that rule the same way we do."
Basically, yes, they put in long hours, but technically that stuff is
voluntary. If you miss the summer workouts or 7 on 7s, you won't face
the same punishments you would for missing mandatory meetings or
practice (suspensions, eventually a loss of scholarship). But it's not
"really" voluntary, because if you skip it you won't be ready, you
won't make your fitness goals, and you won't play. And your teammates
will dislike you, because they were there all summer while you were
having fun.
As for Carr, I hate it, but it's true ... fans have turned on Carr big
time. They want to blame everything that goes wrong on Carr, probably
because it's easy to convince yourself that everything will be fine if
you can blame all the problems on a guy who has since left. Having
said that, one complaint that I do think has merit is the complaint
that the team didn't work hard in the later years of his tenure.
Vijay R.
Daniel Edwards
ae4d-573...@z28g2000vbl.googlegroups.com:
> On Aug 31, 11:41�am, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
[snip]
>> Want a copy of my killfile?
>
> My stupid ISP dropped Usenet support, and I grew accustomed to google.
>
> Ick.
>
> Vijay R.
>
http://www.eternal-september.org/
--
Daniel Edwards
Memphis, TN
Ike
> On Aug 31, 11:19 am, Ike <I...@SHAEF.net> wrote:
>
>> The *everybody is doing it" defense is the line of the day on the many
>> fan sites.
>> Almost as if they are already admitting that things were done.
>
> I don't read the sites you are most likely reading. The one that I pay
> attention to, the "line of the day" is mostly a pretty mundane
> variant ... it's not "everyone is breaking that rule", it's "everyone
> is interpreting that rule the same way we do."
>
> Basically, yes, they put in long hours, but technically that stuff is
> voluntary. If you miss the summer workouts or 7 on 7s, you won't face
> the same punishments you would for missing mandatory meetings or
> practice (suspensions, eventually a loss of scholarship). But it's not
> "really" voluntary, because if you skip it you won't be ready, you
> won't make your fitness goals, and you won't play. And your teammates
> will dislike you, because they were there all summer while you were
> having fun.
Scout and Rivals, team boards, national boards, premium and non membership.
And the odd Blog here and there.
>
> As for Carr, I hate it, but it's true ... fans have turned on Carr big
> time. They want to blame everything that goes wrong on Carr, probably
> because it's easy to convince yourself that everything will be fine if
> you can blame all the problems on a guy who has since left. Having
> said that, one complaint that I do think has merit is the complaint
> that the team didn't work hard in the later years of his tenure.
I can't see that one. The "bare cupboard" line I think might be
closer to the truth, given the rumblings his last couple years. It seemed
he had to know way he was leaving long before the end.
BUT!
At the rate RR has been bleeding recruits and players, I hardly think
the blame
for any recent shortcomings in talent can be attached to Carr. It's not like
RR appears to have even attempted to find a middle ground.
barc...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dang, Vijay - I have to go rulebook on you again?!?
Preseason and In In-Season
Vacation Periods
Daily and weekly hour limitations do not
apply to countable athletically related
activities occurring:
During preseason practice prior to the first
day of classes or the first scheduled contest,
whichever is earlier.
Vacation periods during the academic year
and during the declared playing season.
From the article that you are wrong about...
Aug. 16, 2009
We had the coldest July I can remember in my 18 years of living, but
the week that preseason football camp starts, we can't find a cloud in
the sky when we're out on the practice field to shield us from the
heat. Welcome to camp.
We're almost a full week into it and preseason camp is everything all
of us freshmen expected it to be: learning a completely new style of
football, working hard every day to try and move our way up the depth
chart, meeting new people and trying to fit in with the flow of
things, and trying to get used to this totally foreign schedule. A
typical day consists of showing up for meetings as early as 7:30 a.m.
and being dismissed after our final meeting at 9:30 p.m. In those 14
hours, we have meetings, practice, lunch, more meetings, film
sessions, dinner and meetings.
http://www.msuspartans.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/081609aaa.html
You want to be a Wolverine fan, fine. Just don't expect the rest of us
to just sit there when you try to go Lanny Davis on us - and still are
WRONG.
Your rivalry pal,
Dan
The BorgMan
news:BfydnS8PX77dlAfX...@supernews.com:
> Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock wrote, On 8/29/09 11:57 PM:
>> On Aug 29, 9:55 pm, samson <nos...@nospam.spam> wrote:
>>> http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/10002326/Report:-Michigan-players-
>>> allege-NCAA-infractions
>>>
>>> DETROIT (AP) - Several Michigan football players claim the program
>>> regularly violates NCAA rules limiting how much time they can spend
>>> on training and practice sessions, according to a published report.
>>>
>>> Players from the 2008 and 2009 teams told the Detroit Free Press for
>>> a story published on the newspaper's Web site on Saturday that the
>>> amount of time they spend on football activities during the season
>>> and in the offseason greatly exceeds the limits. The players spoke
>>> to the newspaper on condition of anonymity because they feared
>>> repercussions from coaches.
>>>
>>> Coach Rich Rodriguez and the university's compliance director, Judy
>>> Van Horn, both denied that the football program was violating NCAA
>>> rules.
>>
>> http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4431717
>>
>> Trubba.
>
> You'd think they'd have more to show for all that work.
>
> But yeah, this will take RichRod down if the story
> holds up.
No it won't...
I can tell you EXACTLY how it plays out.
Kids worked more than they were supposed to - but the coaching staff and
the compliance department know the rules well enough that this will all
fall into grey areas on the edge. Every kid signed the pledge saying the
coaches didn't overwork them, and in the end it'll come out that while
they were pushing the limits - they didn't break the letter of the law.
--
Aaron
The BorgMan
> I can't imagine why you'd think this. It may happen
> this way everywhere, but nobody else's program is
> leaking like the Titanic about it, not just from
> current players but from former ones as well. I
> guarantee you that not all of these players are
> unaware what goes on at other programs. There's
> something to these allegations that goes beyond
> the pale.
>
>
Yep... Rich Rod pissed off a bunch of junior/senior players by instituting
a system in which they wouldn't play.
--
Aaron
The BorgMan
news:DaadnZmmxv8F1wbX...@supernews.com:
> I can't imagine why you'd think this. It may happen
> this way everywhere, but nobody else's program is
> leaking like the Titanic about it, not just from
> current players but from former ones as well. I
> guarantee you that not all of these players are
> unaware what goes on at other programs. There's
> something to these allegations that goes beyond
> the pale.
>
Oh... and the author of the piece notoriously has it out for Rodriguez.
--
Aaron
The BorgMan
GrbQbXnZ2dn...@supernews.com:
> UM is now staring right into the glare of a "lack of
> institutional control" charge.
>
If you believe this, you're high.
Really, really high.
On not very good hallucinogens.
--
Aaron
The BorgMan
news:1e5d611e-6c7a-4b7b...@g6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
> On Aug 30, 11:18�am, "Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock"
> <solnichkafrankenst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 30, 7:44 am, Jon Enslin <jens...@charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 30, 9:37 am, unklbob <mcgrisw...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > On Aug 30, 9:29 am, Jaybyrd <jaybyrdb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Aug 30, 12:55 am, samson <nos...@nospam.spam> wrote:
>>
>> > > > >http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/10002326/Report:-Michigan-pl
>> > > > >aye
> rs-
>> > > > > allege-NCAA-infractions
>>
>> > > > > DETROIT (AP) - Several Michigan football players claim the
>> > > > > progra
> m
>> > > > > regularly violates NCAA rules limiting how much time they can
>> > > > > spe
> nd on
>> > > > > training and practice sessions, according to a published
>> > > > > report.
>>
>> > > > > Players from the 2008 and 2009 teams told the Detroit Free
>> > > > > Press
> for a
>> > > > > story published on the newspaper's Web site on Saturday that
>> > > > > the
> amount
>> > > > > of time they spend on football activities during the season
>> > > > > and i
> n the
>> > > > > offseason greatly exceeds the limits. The players spoke to
>> > > > > the ne
> wspaper
>> > > > > on condition of anonymity because they feared repercussions
>> > > > > from coaches.
>>
>> > > > > Coach Rich Rodriguez and the university's compliance
>> > > > > director, Ju
> dy Van
>> > > > > Horn, both denied that the football program was violating
>> > > > > NCAA ru
> les.
>>
>> > > > the sad part isn't michigan cheating.. it's the lazyness of the
>> > > > players in using the media to try to get out of hard work.
>>
>> > > Indeed.
>>
>> > > The story last year was the defection of certain players over
>> > > "coaching philosophy" �read: �"He wanted us to work harder than w
> e
>> > > wanted to work." �The current story smells of revenge.
>>
>> > I agree. �Everyone knows the official rules are followed with a
>> > wink and a nod, and that "voluntary" workouts are not really
>> > voluntary. �R
> R
>> > is hardly the only coach to do this, and I'm sure he did it at WVU
>> > too.
>>
>> I spent a year doing NCAA compliance at Cal in the mid-1990s. Those
>> rules are absolute. Nobody dares break them -- or at least that was
>> my experience 15 years ago.
>
>
> They are meeting the literal rules. But everyone knows that the
> voluntary off-season weight program has a lot of mandatory aspects to
> it...if you know what I mean.
Yep...
It's voluntary to show up at the workouts. It's voluntary for the coach
to play you. There just happens to be some correlation there.
--
Aaron
Kyle T. Jones
Did Meyer win any MNCs at Utah? Right - the fact that RichRod was able
to lift a mediocre Big East program to that level speaks volumes. Meyer
had to go elsewhere to get to that point...
Cheers.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:07:12 -0500, Kyle T. Jones wrote...
> > Like USC "winning" against Stanford? I forget, does USC play in the BCS
> > championship game if they win that game? Or was that the Oregon State
> > upset... twice? Or all three?
>
> > Was sucky Pitt a bigger upset than Stanford over USC or Ole Miss over
> > Florida?
>
> > Yeah, those guys (Carrol/Meyer) are just horrible coaches...
>
> > Cheers.
>
> I forsee a 'hook'd' claim in your future.
That's because you're an id0t.
Kyle T. Jones
> On Aug 30, 8:59 pm, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>> Vijay Ramanujan wrote, On 8/30/09 10:19 PM:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 30, 10:52 pm, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>>>> Vijay Ramanujan wrote, On 8/30/09 5:49 PM:
>>>>>> You'd think they'd have more to show for all that work.
>>>>>> But yeah, this will take RichRod down if the story
>>>>>> holds up.
>>>>> What does "hold up" mean?
>>>> that RichRod was willfully and knowingly violating
>>>> NCAA rules, he's outta there.
>>>> The hidden implication, Vijay, is a positive one for
>>>> your school -- that it won't put up with coaches
>>>> tarnishing its reputation by operating outside the
>>>> rules.
>>> Understood, I'm just asking how much of it do you think has to hold up
>>> for that to happen?
>> It's a classic "what did he know and when did he know
>> it" trap. He has to be very careful with this because
>> any attempt at a cover-up will almost certainly unravel.
>> If the violations were rampant and he knew, he'd better
>> get to apologizing real quick, 'cause it only gets worse
>> from there if he doesn't.
>>
>>> I think the most likely scenario is that what they find is that
>>> Michigan is skirting the rules in the same way that almost every
>>> program skirts the rules. Lots and lots of voluntary sessions run by
>>> S&C staff, and players who find that skipping the sessions means they
>>> don't get to play so much and aren't so popular with their teammates.
>> this way everywhere, but nobody else's program is
>> leaking like the Titanic about it, not just from
>> current players but from former ones as well. I
>> guarantee you that not all of these players are
>> unaware what goes on at other programs. There's
>> something to these allegations that goes beyond
>> the pale.
>
>
> If he doesn't win ten games this year, he's going to get canned in
> favor of a real "Michigan man".
Harbaugh on line one... Jim? Are you there, Jim?
You're way off, though. He can win 6 this year and return.
Cheers.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
Unless you're good enough that it just doesn't matter.
Then you can call your own shots.
Kyle T. Jones
>
>
> The *everybody is doing it" defense is the line of the day on the many
> fan sites.
> Almost as if they are already admitting that things were done.
>
Yes, they're admitting that many players view voluntary training as,
basically, mandatory - especially if they want/expect to move up the
depth chart.
I figure you didn't play college sports... or even high school, for that
matter. This shit is old hat.
Cheers.
> This entire situation is getting weirder by the day.
>
Kyle T. Jones
I could find five transfers from any top-tier program to whine to the
press about working too hard... you have a pretty low standard for "proof".
Unfortunately, you might be right - this might not be going away. Why
did you beat on that girl, Chris? Are you prepared to prove to me that
you've never beaten on any girl?
Cheers.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
But Meyer at Utah >>>>> RichRod at WVU.
Meyer's tenure at Utah was short, however. And at least he beat Pitt
when it mattered.
[You know this isn't an axe grinding, so I hope you're enjoying the
light-hearted volley.]
Anthony Summers
wrote...
Nah, the only reason you didn't try it is because I called it. ;)
Kyle T. Jones
Nobody - even the biggest Carr hater - claimed Carr had a "bare
cupboard" - hell, his last season, he had four year starters at RB and
QB, and the overall first round draft pick at left tackle. In short, a
team that was *capable* of completely dominating a Tebow-led Florida
team - the one year Tebow actually won the Hypesman (he won't win it
this year). No shortage of talent, there.
The loss to Appy State that year, much like USC's loss to Stanford, had
nothing to do with talent, where UM/USC had huge advantages - it had to
do with a bullshit "we're way better" attitude on the part of players
from the respective favored teams.
> BUT!
>
> At the rate RR has been bleeding recruits and players, I hardly think
> the blame
> for any recent shortcomings in talent can be attached to Carr. It's not
> like
> RR appears to have even attempted to find a middle ground.
>
No, he hasn't - he said "this is my system, we're running it from day
one, if you don't like it, too bad." Gee, what a surprise that a bunch
of guys that had spent two-three years under Carr waiting to start, and
were suddenly told "likely you won't *ever* start, you're too big/slow
for our system", started whining to anyone who would listen.
Bleeding recruits? Guys gonna have top-ten classes his first two years
at Michigan. Yep, the horror, the horror.
Cheers.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
You think so? There's a lot of of burnt trash being aired out right
now. This may turn out to be an Amaker-like hire.
Besides, didn't Harbaugh burn this bridge already?
Kyle T. Jones
> Chris Bellomy wrote:
>> Vijay Ramanujan wrote, On 8/30/09 5:49 PM:
>>> On Aug 30, 1:08 am, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You'd think they'd have more to show for all that work.
>>>>
>>>> But yeah, this will take RichRod down if the story
>>>> holds up.
>>>
>>> What does "hold up" mean?
>>
>> What I meant was simply this: if the charges are true
>> that RichRod was willfully and knowingly violating
>> NCAA rules, he's outta there.
>>
>> The hidden implication, Vijay, is a positive one for
>> your school -- that it won't put up with coaches
>> tarnishing its reputation by operating outside the
>> rules.
>
> Woodson when he took $12,000 and played? Michigan's played so long
> without winning, they'll overlook the rape of their mothers with
> herpetic cock to get a first down.
>
> We've played Michigan 4 times when they've played ineligible players,
> all under Carr.
You've managed to beat Michigan once in the last eleven tries. Your
whining is disregarded via the utter irrelevancy of your program.
Michigan has pieces of Penn State in it's stool and will for decades to
come. Welcome to the Big Ten. Scoreboard, bitch.
Cheers.
Chris Bellomy
So disappointing. You're so much smarter than this. The
better analogy would be several different girls showing
up with bruises and claiming I beat them. Maybe I didn't,
but the fact the several different girls came out of the
woodwork to say I did is... troubling.
cb
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
I shoot straight with Kyle -- I bait Borgman.
Wrong again, id0t.
Kyle T. Jones
> On Aug 30, 6:29 am, Jaybyrd <jaybyrdb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 30, 12:55 am, samson <nos...@nospam.spam> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/10002326/Report:-Michigan-players-
>>> allege-NCAA-infractions
>>> DETROIT (AP) - Several Michigan football players claim the program
>>> training and practice sessions, according to a published report.
>>> Players from the 2008 and 2009 teams told the Detroit Free Press for a
>>> story published on the newspaper's Web site on Saturday that the amount
>>> offseason greatly exceeds the limits. The players spoke to the newspaper
>>> on condition of anonymity because they feared repercussions from
>>> coaches.
>>> Horn, both denied that the football program was violating NCAA rules.
>> the sad part isn't michigan cheating.. it's the lazyness of the
>> players in using the media to try to get out of hard work.
>
I thought what he said was "Coach Carr let me use the stationary bike
instead of running with the rest of the team..."
I can't tell you how bad I feel for the guy... but looks like the lazy
bastage found a home at tOSU, anyways...
Cheers.
Kyle T. Jones
> On Aug 30, 7:44 am, Jon Enslin <jens...@charter.net> wrote:
>> On Aug 30, 9:37 am, unklbob <mcgrisw...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>> On Aug 30, 12:55 am, samson <nos...@nospam.spam> wrote:
>>>>> http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/10002326/Report:-Michigan-players-
>>>>> allege-NCAA-infractions
>>>>> DETROIT (AP) - Several Michigan football players claim the program
>>>>> regularly violates NCAA rules limiting how much time they can spend on
>>>>> training and practice sessions, according to a published report.
>>>>> Players from the 2008 and 2009 teams told the Detroit Free Press for a
>>>>> story published on the newspaper's Web site on Saturday that the amount
>>>>> of time they spend on football activities during the season and in the
>>>>> offseason greatly exceeds the limits. The players spoke to the newspaper
>>>>> on condition of anonymity because they feared repercussions from
>>>>> coaches.
>>>>> Coach Rich Rodriguez and the university's compliance director, Judy Van
>>>>> Horn, both denied that the football program was violating NCAA rules.
>>>> the sad part isn't michigan cheating.. it's the lazyness of the
>>>> players in using the media to try to get out of hard work.
>>> The story last year was the defection of certain players over
>>> "coaching philosophy" read: "He wanted us to work harder than we
>>> wanted to work." The current story smells of revenge.
>> I agree. Everyone knows the official rules are followed with a wink
>> and a nod, and that "voluntary" workouts are not really voluntary. RR
>> is hardly the only coach to do this, and I'm sure he did it at WVU
>> too.
>
> I spent a year doing NCAA compliance at Cal in the mid-1990s. Those
> rules are absolute. Nobody dares break them -- or at least that was my
> experience 15 years ago.
So you're claiming that not one player who attended a voluntary practice
at Cal might claim he felt not showing up would have hurt his position
in the depth chart?
Bullshit. You do know that's all that's being claimed as "cheating", right?
Kyle T. Jones
Dude, I'm not in that frame of mind. Today, everyone's an enemy...
The world is spinning.
Cheers.
Kyle T. Jones
Harbaugh is my personal... I don't know what you'd call it. If I had
been AD a couple years back, I would have put everything I had into
bringing him back to Michigan. Swallowed pride, all that.
I think he's that good. And love the pro-style offense he runs. I
think he's gonna be a top-tier college coach, if he doesn't jump to the NFL.
And you know what - he was dead on with *every* criticism he made wrt
Michigan. DEAD ON. Mayhaps that's the reason he's so disliked in Ann
Arbor. I'll say that again - DEAD ON.
And, yes - I catch shit from everyone over this issue.
Cheers.
Kyle T. Jones
Where are the bruises, Chris? There is no "evidence". Disproving the
claim that they felt pressured to attend "voluntary" training is the
definition of unpossible. That's my point - and it's both why (a) I
doubt we'll see any NCAA sanctions, and (b) this cloud will hang over
the program for a while.
Both for the same reason - the charges are basically impossible to prove
or disprove.
Cheers.
Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
It will slow down soon. The world is cyclical.
Tonawanda Kardex
I agree with you on Harbaugh. I love the guy, and I think he would
have been a much better hire than Miles or RR or anyone else. Cross
your fingers.
I don't recall what he said about AA nor would I have the perspective
to know if it was true. I will have to look it up.
Anthony Summers
wrote...
> On Aug 31, 2:21 pm, Anthony Summers <summerstorm0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT), Solnichka Frankenstein: Sock
> > wrote...
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Aug 31, 9:13 am, Anthony Summers <summerstorm0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:07:12 -0500, Kyle T. Jones wrote...
> > > > > Like USC "winning" against Stanford? I forget, does USC play in the BCS
> > > > > championship game if they win that game? Or was that the Oregon State
> > > > > upset... twice? Or all three?
> >
> > > > > Was sucky Pitt a bigger upset than Stanford over USC or Ole Miss over
> > > > > Florida?
> >
> > > > > Yeah, those guys (Carrol/Meyer) are just horrible coaches...
> >
> > > > > Cheers.
> >
> > > > I forsee a 'hook'd' claim in your future.
> >
> > > That's because you're an id0t.
> >
> > Nah, the only reason you didn't try it is because I called it. ;)
>
> I shoot straight with Kyle -- I bait Borgman.
>
> Wrong again, id0t.
No, you call fishing when you've been proved wrong so conclusively that
the only alternative is to admit that you were mistaken.
Anthony Summers
> You've managed to beat Michigan once in the last eleven tries. Your
> whining is disregarded via the utter irrelevancy of your program.
>
> Michigan has pieces of Penn State in it's stool and will for decades to
> come. Welcome to the Big Ten. Scoreboard, bitch.
Dayum. Oh no he di'n't, y'all...
Chris Bellomy
The charges are themselves the bruises.
> There is no "evidence". Disproving the
> claim that they felt pressured to attend "voluntary" training is the
> definition of unpossible. That's my point - and it's both why (a) I
> doubt we'll see any NCAA sanctions, and (b) this cloud will hang over
> the program for a while.
>
> Both for the same reason - the charges are basically impossible to prove
> or disprove.
It's pretty easy to prove whether the coaches were present for
voluntary workouts. And if they weren't there, there will be
plenty of players willing to testify to that.
It also gets much easier when the anonymous surrender their
anonymity and their testimony can be judged with regard to
motive. The assumption that it's just a bunch of disgruntled
upperclassmen is just that -- an assumption. You don't know
who they are yet. No more than I do.
This isn't the first time a new coach has arrived and
pissed off the lettermen he inherited. Mike Sherman did
it at A&M last year. I've never heard of it turning into
something like *this*, though. If there's enough independent
corroboration about RichRod's instructions -- if everybody's
story lines up and there are specifics -- then this is
extremely bad for RichRod. I admit those are big ifs.
But this is a very weird story.
cb
Thomas R. Kettler
Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
> This isn't the first time a new coach has arrived and
> pissed off the lettermen he inherited. Mike Sherman did
> it at A&M last year. I've never heard of it turning into
> something like *this*, though. If there's enough independent
> corroboration about RichRod's instructions -- if everybody's
> story lines up and there are specifics -- then this is
> extremely bad for RichRod. I admit those are big ifs.
> But this is a very weird story.
The best example of this: when John L. Smith went to Louisville, one
player said the L stood for Lucifer.
--
Remove blown from email address to reply.
barc...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Generally, for the off season workouts, it is very hard to prove. If
you search the wires, you will find that RR did the same thing with
the overlong Sunday practices after games when he first year he came
to West Virginia. The next year, they started winning, and he stopped
it. So what you have is serial disregard of the rules his first year
at a new place, to retain guys who will put up with him, and drive off
the rest. He has scheduled Sundays after games to be an off day this
year. It should be fairly early to prove what happened last season
Sundays. Either you have dozens of parents who couldn't be with their
son Sunday afternoon and evening, or you don't