Biggest Cheater in Baseball History Poll
Hoover
Mark McGwire
Raffy Palmeiro
Gaylord Perry
Albert Belle
Sammy Sosa
Dan Bretta
Hal Chase!
Dan
David Hageman
Jason Giambi
Brady Anderson
Wayback1918
Eddie Ciccotte
Buck Weaver
"David Hageman" <dhag...@hagemangroup.com> wrote in message
news:1144444055....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Emperor Wonko the Magnificent
Wunnuy
All cheaters, but not even close to the black sox 8 as well as numerous
players in the early part of the 20th century who took money to throw
games.
Dan Bretta
Wayback1918 wrote:
> An excellent start....
>
> Eddie Ciccotte
> Buck Weaver
>
http://www.gingerkid.com/buck.htm
Dan
Greg Lentz
--
Greg Lentz
Wayback1918
"Dan Bretta" <nud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144444807....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dan Bretta
participated in the throwing of the 1919 series.
http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneChase.html
Dan
Johnny
ADD: Don Sutton, who bragged about how his catcher would
sharpen the buckles on his shin guards and use them to cut
the ball.
-Johnny (Skip wormed it out of him.)
Johnny
Proven, too.
miguel
presidential pardon? None. George Steinbrenner on the other hand . . .
Wunnuy
Wayback1918 wrote:
> Good link.....scratch Buck as cheater....still looked the other way
>
Weaver is a really interesting case. He knew of the whole thing and
didn't take any money but didn't say anything. It also is interesting
because if he had the opportunity to play a whole career, he might have
put up HOF numbers too. BUT, throwing the world series is an
unforgiveable crime and knowing about it and not doing anything is
pretty bad. I personally believe his punishment is just. So is he a
cheater? Technically no, but he knew all about it and did nothing, so
yes. He is a cheater.
miguel
Thanks for your incredible insight there. You say technically he's not a
cheater, and one sentence later you change your mind and say he is a
cheater. Could you possibly be any less insightful?
So far as his punishment being just, can you identify any rule or law he
broke? You may be dimly aware of a concept called "due process." In the
US that means generally "notice" and "opportunity to be heard." These
are basic tenets of any system of justice. If Buck had no notice of any
rule that he was supposed to have violated, because no such rule
existed, how could his being punished be just?
Dan Bretta
There are indications that he tried to tell Comiskey and Comiskey in
turn tried to tell Ban Johnson who would not listen to Comiskey because
of a prior fued. What was going on in the 1919 Series was not a secret
to anyone close to the game. Buck Weaver was tossed out of baseball
on hearsay by an overzealous new Commissioner who was trying to rid the
game of gamblers. Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker both conspired to throw a
game in 1926 and neither were tossed out of baseball...Landis cleared
both players because he didn't want baseball to be seen as having the
same problems that he was employed to clean up 6 years
earlier....Weaver appealed to MLB every year until his death to try and
clear his name, but MLB would not listen.
Dan
Dan
TheDave©
King Kelly
--
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill
the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the
other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them
all.
~Earl Weaver
Johnny
Dan Bretta
TheDave© wrote:
> > Hoover wrote:
> >
> > Barry Bonds
> > Mark McGwire
> > Raffy Palmeiro
> > Gaylord Perry
> > Albert Belle
> > Sammy Sosa
>
> King Kelly
>
Dan
Wookie
Dock Ellis - http://www.sirbacon.org/4membersonly/docellis.htm
Jim Bouton http://www.baseball19to21.com/art20050101.html
"Johnny" <apt...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:7RAZf.29$bm6.4@fed1read04...
Lance Freezeland
<dhag...@hagemangroup.com> gave us:
>Jason Giambi
>Brady Anderson
no Mike Bordick?
--
Lance
"If you live in a mobile home, Satan is your lord whether you
know it or not." Bob Green
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Mitch Edelman
If you want scuff/spitballers, the list is huge -
Lew Burdette
Don Drysdale (was frequently accused of spitters)
Preacher Roe
the Brothers Niekro, especially Joe . . .
come to mind quickly . . .
Carl Erskine admitted to throwing one "in the bullpen" but never
in a game.
George Brett had his pine tarred bat incident, as I recall . . . but
he was pretty popular, so no one ever seriously got on his case for it.
Cheers,
Mitch Edelman
Wayback1918
"miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:P8adnRSyxKNBfavZ...@comcast.com...
>
> So far as his punishment being just, can you identify any rule or law he
> broke? You may be dimly aware of a concept called "due process." In the
> US that means generally "notice" and "opportunity to be heard." These are
> basic tenets of any system of justice. If Buck had no notice of any rule
> that he was supposed to have violated, because no such rule existed, how
> could his being punished be just?
Read the title of the post!
"Biggest Cheater in Baseball History Poll"..... nothing about being a
criminal.
Rather silly to put US case law as a standard here. The court of public
opinion doesn't have the same rules.
Lance Freezeland
us:
Probably because nobody could see what advantage it gave Brett to have
all that pine tar on the bat.
--
Lance
"Sweet feathery Christ in a carseat!"
Bobbie Dooley
miguel
Not a baseball rule.
miguel
> "miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:P8adnRSyxKNBfavZ...@comcast.com...
>> So far as his punishment being just, can you identify any rule or law he
>> broke? You may be dimly aware of a concept called "due process." In the
>> US that means generally "notice" and "opportunity to be heard." These are
>> basic tenets of any system of justice. If Buck had no notice of any rule
>> that he was supposed to have violated, because no such rule existed, how
>> could his being punished be just?
> Read the title of the post!
Read the post I'm responding to!
> "Biggest Cheater in Baseball History Poll"..... nothing about being a
> criminal.
Wunnuy the moron said that Buck Weaver deserved to be kicked out of the
game for violating rules that didn't exist. Do you punish your children
for violating rules you haven't told them about?
Triple
> George Brett had his pine tarred bat incident, as I recall . . . but
> he was pretty popular, so no one ever seriously got on his case for it.
>
was when it was put into effect. The pine tar did not help Brett.
Johnny
I am reminded of the common misconception about the
Presumption of Innocence rule. That is a rule of evidence
that applies only to the tryer of fact (typically the jury)
in a criminal prosecution. Everyone else is free to presume
anything they please. The cops and the prosecutors have, of
course, already presumed guilt, otherwise they wouldn't
bring the case in the first place. The general public is
not bound by formal rules of evidence in a criminal trial.
Fairly or not, right or wrong in a moral sense aside, they
can consider anything, hearsay, rumor, naked inferences, etc.
-Johnny (Frank and Earnest cartoon: Frank is a jury
foreman reading the verdict: "We find the defendant not
guilty, Your Honor, but probably worth putting away anyway.)
Wayback1918
> Wayback1918 wrote:
>> "miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:P8adnRSyxKNBfavZ...@comcast.com...
>>> So far as his punishment being just, can you identify any rule or law he
>>> broke? You may be dimly aware of a concept called "due process." In the
>>> US that means generally "notice" and "opportunity to be heard." These
>>> are basic tenets of any system of justice. If Buck had no notice of any
>>> rule that he was supposed to have violated, because no such rule
>>> existed, how could his being punished be just?
>
>> Read the title of the post!
>
> Read the post I'm responding to!
You included my post in your answer....... but the point is the same. The
innocent till proven guilty is legal standard for court of law is much to
high for a newsgroup.
>
>> "Biggest Cheater in Baseball History Poll"..... nothing about being a
>> criminal.
>
> Wunnuy the moron said that Buck Weaver deserved to be kicked out of the
> game for violating rules that didn't exist. Do you punish your children
> for violating rules you haven't told them about?
I've never exactly told my kids they couldn't paint the kitchen table red
and set it on fire.....but if they did I think I'd be justified in punishing
them.
If Weaver knew this was going down and did scream about it after every game
then he does have carry some of the responsibility.
Dan Bretta
The rule he supposedly violated was not created in baseball until 1920
when he was thrown out of baseball. Only he didn't violate the rule
that didn't exist at the time because he DID try to tell Comiskey what
was going on.
Dan
Wunnuy
miguel wrote:
> Wunnuy wrote:
> > Wayback1918 wrote:
> > pretty bad. I personally believe his punishment is just. So is he a
> > cheater? Technically no, but he knew all about it and did nothing, so
> > yes. He is a cheater.
>
> Thanks for your incredible insight there. You say technically he's not a
> cheater, and one sentence later you change your mind and say he is a
> cheater. Could you possibly be any less insightful?
Seeing as how you're an illiterate fool whose only argument skill is to
correct people's misspelled words with your own ("you're own" in
miguelspeak) misspelled words, it's no surprise everything has to be
spelled out for you. Yes, he's "technically" he didn't cheat, but
because he's involved, he can still be considered a cheater. He didn't
throw games like the other 7 but is just as guilty for not reporting
it. Now break out your 1940s catskills old jokes as responses since
you can't come up with a clever response on your own, dumbass.
>
> So far as his punishment being just, can you identify any rule or law he
> broke? You may be dimly aware of a concept called "due process." In the
> US that means generally "notice" and "opportunity to be heard." These
> are basic tenets of any system of justice. If Buck had no notice of any
> rule that he was supposed to have violated, because no such rule
> existed, how could his being punished be just?
Then how can the others be punished by your lame logic? The only
difference between Buck and the others is they physically threw games -
they all had the same knowledge. Are you now claiming Buck didn't know
it was wrong to throw WS games for money?
Wunnuy
Wayback1918 wrote:
> "miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:P8adnRSyxKNBfavZ...@comcast.com...
> >
>
> "Biggest Cheater in Baseball History Poll"..... nothing about being a
> criminal.
>
> Rather silly to put US case law as a standard here. The court of public
> opinion doesn't have the same rules.
You're trying to ask the biggest uneducated idiot in usenet, miguel, a
buffoon who corrects people's misspelled words with his own misspelled
words, to actually under the concept of a thread? Come on, now.
Wunnuy
Dan Bretta wrote:
> miguel wrote:
> > > Wunnuy the moron said that Buck Weaver deserved to be kicked out of the
> > game for violating rules that didn't exist. Do you punish your children
> > for violating rules you haven't told them about?
>
> The rule he supposedly violated was not created in baseball until 1920
> when he was thrown out of baseball. Only he didn't violate the rule
> that didn't exist at the time because he DID try to tell Comiskey what
> was going on.
>
> Dan
Absolutely INCORRECT. Weaver did no such thing. He didn't try to tell
anyone. I just happened to finish reading the book Shoeless a month ago
and even looked up stuff on Weaver after because the author pointed out
how he might have been a HOFer if he had came forth and told someone
and not been suspended. He never tried to tell anyone. The only White
Sox who tried to was Eddie Collins who only had suspicions and had no
proof. Weaver told no one. Get your facts straight.
Wunnuy
Dan Bretta wrote:
> Wunnuy wrote:
> > Wayback1918 wrote:
> >
> turn tried to tell Ban Johnson who would not listen to Comiskey because
> of a prior fued. What was going on in the 1919 Series was not a secret
> to anyone close to the game. Buck Weaver was tossed out of baseball
> on hearsay by an overzealous new Commissioner who was trying to rid the
> game of gamblers.
Wrong. What's your source?
Weaver never tried to tell anyone anything. You're mixing him up with
Eddie Collins. If Weaver had went forth with the names of the people
involved, you can damn well believe something would have been done.
Collins had an idea there was a fix but didn't know any details and had
no proof. He did go to Comiskey but had no proof.
miguel
Why?
Wayback1918
"> Wayback1918 wrote:
>
>> If Weaver knew this was going down and did scream about it after every
>> game then he does have carry some of the responsibility.
"miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> Why?
Sorry I should have written "did not scream about it"
You seem to know alot more about grammar than you Baseball.
miguel
miguel
Hi moron. Remembering to breathe today?
Dan Bretta
You may be right about that...I tried to find where I had read that and
could not....Weaver was tossed out for having "Guilty Knowledge", which
of course he did, but so did a lot of people including Charles Comiskey
who testified during Joe Jackson's back pay trial in 1924 that he knew
the fix was on before the second game was played. Ray Schalk certainly
knew that Cicotte and Williams were throwing games. Either way Weaver
doesn't even belong on the top 100 all time cheaters in baseball
history.
Dan
Rerics
Hoover wrote:
> Barry Bonds
> Mark McGwire
> Raffy Palmeiro
> Gaylord Perry
> Albert Belle
> Sammy Sosa
Norm "I owe my success to my hollow bats" Cash
Rerics
Wayback1918
Wait a minute I gave you the benefit of the doubt because I mis-typed but
are you saying that if .....he was there when the original plan was
discussed ......and he played next to these guys and saw them throwing the
World Series...... and he did nothing about that he had no responsibility?
I can't believe you even post that!
Wayback1918
Miguel you need to have some understanding of the subject being discussed to
contribute. .....or at least some understanding of common sense.
Wunnuy has put some good points forward and you have just been a dick-head.
miguel
No, moron. I'm saying that Buck should not be banned from the game for
life for not reporting conduct that he was not explicitly, by rule,
required to report.
Now, please don't forget to breathe. Ok, check that.
miguel
miguel
miguel
miguel
> "miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:udWdnWi-uo0...@comcast.com...
>> Wunnuy wrote:
>>> Wayback1918 wrote:
>>>> "miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:P8adnRSyxKNBfavZ...@comcast.com...
>>>> Read the title of the post!
>>>>
>>>> "Biggest Cheater in Baseball History Poll"..... nothing about being a
>>>> criminal.
>>>>
>>>> Rather silly to put US case law as a standard here. The court of public
>>>> opinion doesn't have the same rules.
>>> You're trying to ask the biggest uneducated idiot in usenet, miguel, a
>>> buffoon who corrects people's misspelled words with his own misspelled
>>> words, to actually under the concept of a thread? Come on, now.
>> Hi moron. Remembering to breathe today?
>
> Miguel you need to have some understanding of the subject being discussed to
> contribute. .....or at least some understanding of common sense.
Defend your view that Buck should have been treated no differently from
all those players who took money and threw the game.
> Wunnuy has put some good points forward and you have just been a dick-head.
Wunnuy is a moron. Get your facts straight.
Wayback1918
"Dan Bretta" <nud...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144451846....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
I agree. If we're starting a list of "Stand Up Guys" he's certainly not
going to be on the top but it does not appear that he did anything to
directly throw the series.
......and he didn't take steroids and try to steal the Home Run record.
Wayback1918
>
> No, moron. I'm saying that Buck should not be banned from the game for
> life for not reporting conduct that he was not explicitly, by rule,
> required to report.
>
> Now, please don't forget to breathe. Ok, check that.
>
> miguel
Actually no matter what happens now Buck Weaver has been banned for
life...he's dead. Died in 1956
If you want to convince eveyone Wunnuy's a moron you should quit typing. No
one going to believe anyone is a moron as long as they read yor stuff
Seth Jackson
>How many of these baseball folks are convicted felons with a
>presidential pardon? None. George Steinbrenner on the other hand . . .
George Steinbrenner's misdeeds had nothing to do with baseball. He
may be a "criminal", but he's not a "cheater".
miguel
He certainly is a cheater. He cheated by making illegal campaign
contributions. He is also in baseball, much to the chagrin of most right
thinking people. So, ergo, viz, QED, he is the biggest cheater in
baseball history.
miguel
Wunnuy
Wayback1918 wrote:
>>
> You seem to know alot more about grammar than you Baseball.
Actually, Miguel doesn't know much about either.
Wunnuy
> contribute. .....or at least some understanding of common sense.
>
> Wunnuy has put some good points forward and you have just been a dick-head.
hehe. Prepare of the onslaught of "clever" miguel insults like "you
fell off a turnip truck" and "your mom slept with the seventh fleet"
except instead of "your" he writes "you're mom slept with the seventh
fleet" because he doesn't know grammar and spelling very well. Wasn't
"don't forget to breathe" funny? I liked it in the 1940s Looney Tunes
cartoons, but to Miguel, it's as current and clever as he gets.
Wunnuy
Dan Bretta wrote:
>>
> You may be right about that...I tried to find where I had read that and
> could not....Weaver was tossed out for having "Guilty Knowledge", which
> of course he did, but so did a lot of people including Charles Comiskey
> who testified during Joe Jackson's back pay trial in 1924 that he knew
> the fix was on before the second game was played. Ray Schalk certainly
> knew that Cicotte and Williams were throwing games. Either way Weaver
> doesn't even belong on the top 100 all time cheaters in baseball
> history.
>
Actually Comiskey didn't know. Eddie Collins told him he suspected it
but had no proof. Comiskey said he'd investigate and that was that but
he officially had no proof or actual knowledge of the fix. It was a
huge rumor by the series and was suspected by many writers and baseball
officials but only 8 players actually knew anything about it. Now
Comiskey not investigating because he didn't want to lose his big name
stars is wrong too, but he did not know there was a fix on, he only
suspected as much as the writers did.
But as far as Weaver goes, we're talking about the World Series and
having knowledge it's being thrown and not coming forward, albeit not
actually throwing, is still a terrible and unforgiveable crime and if
we're talking about the top 100 cheaters, I'd definitely say Weaver
belongs, without question. Plus the other thing to remember is that in
1920, the 8 were also suspected in a lot more throwing of games during
the regular season. In the book Shoeless, he actually points out some
specific instances of Jackson throwing games during the 20 season. I
don't know for sure if Weaver did, but he knew and letting other
players throw games for money and not saying anything is just as bad as
throwing them yourself.
If you want to read a great book, read "Shoeless." It's not just a
great baseball book but a good read period and very enlightening about
that whole mess.
Wunnuy
miguel wrote:
> Wayback1918 wrote:
> > > Miguel you need to have some understanding of the subject being discussed to
> > contribute. .....or at least some understanding of common sense.
>
> Defend your view that Buck should have been treated no differently from
> all those players who took money and threw the game.
>
> > Wunnuy has put some good points forward and you have just been a dick-head.
>
> Wunnuy is a moron. Get your facts straight.
hehehe. I'm not the guy who responds to the words "thank you" with
"your welcome" and then has the nerve to "correct" other people's
spelling. Maybe you should dip into your 1940s cut down book for some
more of those clever insults! I'm still stinging from the "turnip
truck" line.
Jimbo
"Hoover" <Hoov_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WdAZf.33$s%6.14@dukeread02...
> Barry Bonds
> Mark McGwire
> Raffy Palmeiro
> Gaylord Perry
> Albert Belle
> Sammy Sosa
>
pickles
wrote:
>Barry Bonds
>Mark McGwire
>Raffy Palmeiro
>Gaylord Perry
>Albert Belle
>Sammy Sosa
>
Your Mom.
Dan Bretta
> Dan Bretta wrote:
> >>
> > You may be right about that...I tried to find where I had read that and
> > could not....Weaver was tossed out for having "Guilty Knowledge", which
> > of course he did, but so did a lot of people including Charles Comiskey
> > who testified during Joe Jackson's back pay trial in 1924 that he knew
> > the fix was on before the second game was played. Ray Schalk certainly
> > knew that Cicotte and Williams were throwing games. Either way Weaver
> > doesn't even belong on the top 100 all time cheaters in baseball
> > history.
> >
>
>
> Actually Comiskey didn't know. Eddie Collins told him he suspected it
> but had no proof. Comiskey said he'd investigate and that was that but
> he officially had no proof or actual knowledge of the fix. It was a
> huge rumor by the series and was suspected by many writers and baseball
> officials but only 8 players actually knew anything about it. Now
> Comiskey not investigating because he didn't want to lose his big name
> stars is wrong too, but he did not know there was a fix on, he only
> suspected as much as the writers did.
>
the St Louis Browns was also banned from baseball for "Guilty
Knowledge" of the 1919 fix. Hal Chase is said to have known about the
fix. Do you think Ray Schalk couldn't tell that Lefty Williams and
Cicotte were throwing the game?
> But as far as Weaver goes, we're talking about the World Series and
> having knowledge it's being thrown and not coming forward, albeit not
> actually throwing, is still a terrible and unforgiveable crime and if
> we're talking about the top 100 cheaters, I'd definitely say Weaver
> belongs, without question. Plus the other thing to remember is that in
> 1920, the 8 were also suspected in a lot more throwing of games during
> the regular season. In the book Shoeless, he actually points out some
> specific instances of Jackson throwing games during the 20 season. I
> don't know for sure if Weaver did, but he knew and letting other
> players throw games for money and not saying anything is just as bad as
> throwing them yourself.
>
Well baseball wasn't filled with prima donna nancy boys back then and
some of them were pretty rough dudes...especially Chick Gandil and
Swede Risberg the main conspirators in the fix. I'm not sure I could
blame Weaver for not "ratting" them out. Risberg threatened to kill
Joe Jackson if he talked and Jackson requested protection during the
trial.
> If you want to read a great book, read "Shoeless." It's not just a
> great baseball book but a good read period and very enlightening about
> that whole mess.
I'll have to pick that one up...most of my information comes from books
that I read many years ago...."Eight Men out" and "Shoeless Joe and
Ragtime Baseball".
Dan
Wunnuy
Dan Bretta wrote:
> Wunnuy wrote:
> > Dan Bretta wrote:
> > > >
> More than just the 8 players knew what was going on....Joe Gedeon of
> the St Louis Browns was also banned from baseball for "Guilty
> Knowledge" of the 1919 fix. Hal Chase is said to have known about the
> fix. Do you think Ray Schalk couldn't tell that Lefty Williams and
> Cicotte were throwing the game?
Yes, they could tell but had no proof. Like I say, Eddie Collins did
try to report it but has as much proof as anyone else which was none.
Good call on the Gedeon thing, not many people know about him, he's
considered the "ninth man out." The folllowing year after the
banishment the Browns missed the pennant by one game. Hal Chase is one
of the biggest scumbags ever in baseball. They say he was throwing
games all through the teens and made more money from tossing games than
he did from salary.
>
> I'll have to pick that one up...most of my information comes from books
> that I read many years ago...."Eight Men out" and "Shoeless Joe and
> Ragtime Baseball".
Believe me, if you liked those books, you'll love "Shoeless." Eight men
out has a lot of incorrect information; Comiskey never promised Cicotte
a bonus for winning 30 games, stuff like that. I wrote a post about
"Shoeless" in another group recently. Great book and it makes you
wonder; if Jackson had continued playing, would he have become a power
hitter in the 20s? Ruth copied his upper cut swing and '21, the year
after Jackson was done was when the ball started flying. Jackson's last
year in the Majors was far and away his best power year, so who knows
what kind of hitter he might have become after the Chapman incident.
Dan Bretta
If you're not already reading it you should check out the 1919 Black
Sox Yahoo Group. I'm on there, but I haven't read it in quite a
while....I do get about 10 emails a day so it's quite active. And many
of the contributors on that list like Gene Carney have written books
about the 1919 Sox.
Dan
David Hageman
> On 7 Apr 2006 14:07:35 -0700, "David Hageman"
> <dhag...@hagemangroup.com> gave us:
>
> >Hoover wrote:
> >> Barry Bonds
> >> Mark McGwire
> >> Raffy Palmeiro
> >> Gaylord Perry
> >> Albert Belle
> >> Sammy Sosa
>
> >Brady Anderson
>
> no Mike Bordick?
>
Geesh...you're right. I forgot that year he found all that "power" at
the plate.
David H.
Chef
Wunnuy
Dan Bretta wrote:
>
> If you're not already reading it you should check out the 1919 Black
> Sox Yahoo Group. I'm on there, but I haven't read it in quite a
> while....I do get about 10 emails a day so it's quite active. And many
> of the contributors on that list like Gene Carney have written books
> about the 1919 Sox.
>
>
No, in fact, I looked at yahoo groups and came across one that had
hardly any activity. This one has ten a day? I will check it out. I
did email the author of Shoeless a couple times too.
I've been doing a lot of research on Joe Jackson for a project the last
few months. It's interesting to me the amount of people who are not
aware that he was definitely apart of the scandal (because his average
was high, they think he was like Weaver, just someone who knew), was
paid 5000 and actually later complained in a hearing that he was still
owed 15000. In Shoeless, the author acutally points out specific
instances where Jackson blew plays. It's pretty interesting stuff. No
matter what happens, Jackson should never be allowed in the HOF.
Dan Bretta
Yeah he was definitely part of throwing games. Missing the cutoff
guy, throwing to the wrong base, letting balls get over his head, et
cetera...What kind of project are you doing? something for SABR?
Dan
Dan Bretta
posts a day, sometimes more, but all of the leading experts on this
subject are here if you have questions.
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/1919BlackSox/
Dan
wunnuy
Dan Bretta wrote:
> Wunnuy wrote:
> >
> guy, throwing to the wrong base, letting balls get over his head, et
> cetera...What kind of project are you doing? something for SABR?
>
> Dan
I work in the entertainment industry and I drew some interest on a
project on Jackson. What's even more damaging about Jackson that a lot
of people don't realize is he threw games in the '20 season too. So
when I read that whole thing congress put out about letting Jackson in
the Hall, I laugh. It's so absurd. Jackson is as guilty if not guiltier
than most of the black sox 8. The man should never be let back in. What
he did is unforgiveable.
Mark
42N83W
> "Mark" <Packe...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> news:48VZf.88189$oL.66139@attbi_s71...
> Albert Pujols
>
I'd be a lot more suspect of D. Lee than Pujols.
Seth Jackson
>Seth Jackson wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:34:43 -0700, miguel <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> How many of these baseball folks are convicted felons with a
>>> presidential pardon? None. George Steinbrenner on the other hand . . .
>>
>> George Steinbrenner's misdeeds had nothing to do with baseball. He
>> may be a "criminal", but he's not a "cheater".
>
>He certainly is a cheater. He cheated by making illegal campaign
>contributions.
Which made him a criminal.
>He is also in baseball, much to the chagrin of most right
>thinking people. So, ergo, viz, QED, he is the biggest cheater in
>baseball history.
>
>miguel
He has never cheated in baseball. Sorry to burst your bubble. Have a
nice day.
Seth Jackson
wrote:
>Barry Bonds
>Mark McGwire
>Raffy Palmeiro
>Gaylord Perry
>Albert Belle
>Sammy Sosa
>
Sosa belongs on the top of that list. Steriods PLUS corked bats.
catfish
> Why does he carry some of the responsibility?
Because he had prior knowledge of a conspiracy to throw the World Series,
was in a position to stop it, and did nothing. That makes him just as
guilty of throwing the games as the players who actively cheated.
History is full of examples of people who had knowledge of crimes before
they occurred, and paid the price later for not doing anything about it.
See Mary Surratt and Zacharias Moussaoui for object lessons.
Wunnuy
> are you saying that if .....he was there when the original plan was
> discussed ......and he played next to these guys and saw them throwing the
> World Series...... and he did nothing about that he had no responsibility?
>
> I can't believe you even post that!
Just remember: Miguel is a buffoon who doesn't care about talking about
baseball or whatever. He's a troll looking to start up shit. He'll
start correcting your misspelled words with his own brand of bad
spelling and after you've made him look silly, he'll start tossing a
plethora of 1940s cutdowns at you pretending he wrote them and hoping
you'll feel the pain of stinging comments like "your mom slept with the
seventh fleet." It's always the least educated nitwits who "correct"
people's spelling and apparently that's why miguel is disliked in
numerous groups. Look at all the groups this thread is linked to.
Wunnuy
catfish wrote:
> "miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:QJadnQXZW51eaKvZ...@comcast.com...
> > Why does he carry some of the responsibility?
>
> Because he had prior knowledge of a conspiracy to throw the World Series,
> was in a position to stop it, and did nothing. That makes him just as
> guilty of throwing the games as the players who actively cheated.
Absolutely. And Joe Gedeon of the Browns had nothing to do with the
Series but he was banned for knowing about it too, so if he goes,
definitely a guy on the actual team goes. It's sad what happened to
Weaver but throwing a WS is unforgiveable, whether you were apart of it
or just had knowledge and Weaver could have went forward with names of
people involved and stopped it. It's all part of the "I'm not a rat"
thing, which is why he didn't. I'm sure in retrospect, he probably
wished he had and just suffered the hatred of the other seven men
involved, but he would have been able to play another ten years in the
Majors, which I'm sure was much more important to him.
I'm not really here
"Seth Jackson" <a...@mindspring.invalid> wrote in message
news:r2dh32h458ogl4j1t...@4ax.com...
Good reason. But I'd vote for McGwire. If you believe Canseco, then
McGwire's been using steroids since the 80's when they were teammates,
so McGwire could've been using it far longer than these other guys.
Could've been 15 years.
miguel
Seth, there's never been a slightly dangling modifier that you wouldn't
stretch beyond recognition before. Why change your approach now?
miguel
miguel
> "miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:QJadnQXZW51eaKvZ...@comcast.com...
>> Why does he carry some of the responsibility?
>
> Because he had prior knowledge of a conspiracy to throw the World Series,
> was in a position to stop it, and did nothing. That makes him just as
> guilty of throwing the games as the players who actively cheated.
Prove he was in a position to stop it. Prove he wasn't in a position to
get killed if he tried to. Even if you do all of that, you're still
wrong. By your logic, every non-juicing major league ball player who
knew of steroid use is just as guilty as the users.
> History is full of examples of people who had knowledge of crimes before
> they occurred, and paid the price later for not doing anything about it.
> See Mary Surratt and Zacharias Moussaoui for object lessons.
Hmmm. Mary Surratt was allegedly actively involved in the conspiracy, as
was Moussaoui. Both were found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, after
having been given notice and opportunity to be heard. Try again.
miguel
miguel
The gift that keeps on giving. It was fun trolling you at first, but now
you're like a stubborn zoster.
miguel
miguel
> catfish wrote:
>> "miguel" <mjc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:QJadnQXZW51eaKvZ...@comcast.com...
>>> Why does he carry some of the responsibility?
>> Because he had prior knowledge of a conspiracy to throw the World Series,
>> was in a position to stop it, and did nothing. That makes him just as
>> guilty of throwing the games as the players who actively cheated.
>
> Absolutely. And Joe Gedeon of the Browns had nothing to do with the
> Series but he was banned for knowing about it too, so if he goes,
> definitely a guy on the actual team goes.
What intensely stupid logic. That's like arguing in favor of the death
penalty by saying that because innocent men have been executed, clearly
we can't complain when a guilty man is executed.
> It's sad what happened to
> Weaver but throwing a WS is unforgiveable, whether you were apart of it
> or just had knowledge and Weaver could have went forward with names of
> people involved and stopped it.
Sure he could have. What happened when Charles Comisky complained to Ban
Johnson? Ban Johnson ignored him. There is no evidence in support of
your assumptions, and evidence opposing them exists.
> It's all part of the "I'm not a rat"
> thing, which is why he didn't. I'm sure in retrospect, he probably
> wished he had and just suffered the hatred of the other seven men
> involved, but he would have been able to play another ten years in the
> Majors, which I'm sure was much more important to him.
Here's a better idea. In retrospect, don't ban Weaver from baseball when
he didn't participate in throwing the series, at least without giving
him an opportunity to be heard. We don't know his state of mind. We
don't know whether he was in fear of his life.
miguel
Wunnuy
miguel wrote:
> Wunnuy wrote:
>> Here's a better idea. In retrospect, don't ban Weaver from baseball when
> he didn't participate in throwing the series, at least without giving
> him an opportunity to be heard. We don't know his state of mind. We
> don't know whether he was in fear of his life.
>
> miguel
If you can break away from reading your 1940s cutdown books, read
"Shoeless" and then get back to me. Or I should say, have someone read
it to you.
Wunnuy
miguel wrote:
> catfish wrote:
> > > History is full of examples of people who had knowledge of crimes before
> > they occurred, and paid the price later for not doing anything about it.
> > See Mary Surratt and Zacharias Moussaoui for object lessons.
>
> Hmmm. Mary Surratt was allegedly actively involved in the conspiracy, as
> was Moussaoui. Both were found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, after
> having been given notice and opportunity to be heard. Try again.
>
There's no "alleged" with Mary Surratt. Documents found in the 1970s
from teh Atzelrodt family show Surratt knew all about the plots against
Lincoln. The particular trial against the conspirators was probably
illegal since it was a military trial, but the end result was just. In
fact, the one guy who got off was Mudd, who was later pardoned and
absolutely knew whose foot he was administering first aid too, which
should have resulted in a life time sentence without pardon at the
minimum, if Surratt was hung for having the same knowledge.
miguel
abject idiocy. Reading a book on your recommendation would be taking the
advice of a moron, moron.
miguel
Wunnuy
miguel wrote:
>> The gift that keeps on giving. It was fun trolling you at first, but now
> you're like a stubborn zoster.
>
> miguel
Hey, at least you're admitting you're a troll. And I'm guessing a
troll, not just in the usenet sense, but in the physical sense too. A
really fat troll.
(insert stock miguel 1940s cutdown here)
miguel
You're so anxious to bloviate that you miss the point completely.
miguel
Wunnuy
miguel wrote:
> Wunnuy wrote:
>
> You're so anxious to bloviate that you miss the point completely.
>
> miguel
Well, at least that's better than your "your mom slept with the seventh
fleet" line (or "you're mom" in miguelspeak).
Bryan S. Slick
street and beaten by an angry mob for writing..
:Because he had prior knowledge of a conspiracy to throw the World Series,
:was in a position to stop it, and did nothing. That makes him just as
:guilty of throwing the games as the players who actively cheated.
I'm sorry, but the "just as" guilty argument is ridiculous. He's
culpable to some degree, but not on any level even approaching that of
those who actually perpetrated the scheme.
--
Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"To those who have fought for it,
freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
Seth Jackson
Gee, Mike, it sounds like you're starting to get nasty. I didn't mean
to hurt your feelings by correcting you. Have a nice day.
miguel
> miguel wrote:
>> Seth Jackson wrote:
>>> miguel wrote:
>>>> Seth Jackson wrote:
>>>>> miguel wrote:
>>>>>> How many of these baseball folks are convicted felons with a
>>>>>> presidential pardon? None. George Steinbrenner on the other hand . . .
>>>>> George Steinbrenner's misdeeds had nothing to do with baseball. He
>>>>> may be a "criminal", but he's not a "cheater".
>>>> He certainly is a cheater. He cheated by making illegal campaign
>>>> contributions.
>>> Which made him a criminal.
>>>> He is also in baseball, much to the chagrin of most right
>>>> thinking people. So, ergo, viz, QED, he is the biggest cheater in
>>>> baseball history.
>>> He has never cheated in baseball. Sorry to burst your bubble. Have a
>>> nice day.
>> Seth, there's never been a slightly dangling modifier that you wouldn't
>> stretch beyond recognition before. Why change your approach now?
> Gee, Mike, it sounds like you're starting to get nasty. I didn't mean
> to hurt your feelings by correcting you. Have a nice day.
George was banned from managing day to day operations of the Yankees for
life! That's how big a cheater he is!
miguel
Seth Jackson
>George was banned from managing day to day operations of the Yankees for
>life! That's how big a cheater he is!
Not for cheating on baseball.
Gary Rosen
"I'm not really here" <imnot...@asb.sfg> wrote in message
news:44394...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Has anyone suggested an "asterisk" for the A's WS win over the
Giants in 1989? Or even just give the Giants the championship
flag? I'm sure Fleischer would go for that, he's really opposed
to steroids.
- Gary Rosen
Barry Bonds
Hoover wrote:
> Barry Bonds
> Mark McGwire
> Raffy Palmeiro
> Gaylord Perry
> Albert Belle
The CHICAGO BLACK SOX who 'threw' an entire World Series for sports
betting ...
guess cause they are white, and dead ... they don't count ... ONLY
BARRY BONDS is in your target sights ... only Barry ... no other
CHEATER(s) in HISTORY of MAN FUCKING KIND, except Barry Bonds ... right
stupid?
miguel
Well, yes it was. Here's the chain of events.
1. Winfield signs contract that requires Yankees to pay $300,000 to his
Winfield's foundation.
2. Steinbrenner breaches contract <-- cheating on baseball!
3. Winfield sues Steinbrenner.
4. Steinbrenner pays some crook $40,000 to dig up dirt on Winfield.
5. Faye Vincent bans Steinbrenner from day to day operations of the
Yankees for life.
George Steinbrenner: convicted felon and biggest cheater in baseball
history.
miguel
joh...@ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca
Perhaps. Still, McGwire's commonly cited in these types of threads
as having started out skinny. Here's parts of McGwire's scouting
report while he was still at USC (this doesn't mean he couldn't have
been using while at USC of course, but I don't think that's Canseco's
story):
Starts out: BIG, STRONG (both underlined), POWERFUL BUILD. WELL
PROP. MUSCULAR LEGS.
In the section on abilities, talking about his hitting there's
another STRONG underlined.
And in the Summation and Signability section there: (again
underlined) SHOULD DEV INTO BIG HR MAN [...] RAISED OFF. 5
PTS DUE TO POWER POT.
He grades McGwire as already having better than major league
average power (6 on a scale of 2-8 -- and they're told to
grade against major leaguers) (The primary concern was that
his swing was too long, but they also liked his work habits
and felt that it could be dealt with)
Don't have a scouting report on Bonds before he reached the
majors, but I do have the Scouting Report after his rookie
season:
Bonds is listed at 6:01, 185 and the Scouting Report
for that year has "POWER POTENTIAL" stamped on the review.
A couple of other points of interest: "He won't swing at
bad pitches -- his strikeouts are because he just misses
good ones"
"His swing is still a bit too long and looping" (that's
changed -- RNJ)
"[...] pitchers found that he couldn't cover the inside
corner. Once he learns this, he should develop into
more of a pull hitter who will power 30-40 home runs a
year" (considering the offensive context, a heck of a
forecast -- RNJ)
Written by Jim Rooker
In other words, good enough to play with two specific,
correctable weaknesses. Open question as to whether
he would correct them -- most players don't, but
Rooker could clearly see the player Bonds would
become in a few years.
Jamal Bernhard
> Has anyone suggested an "asterisk" for the A's WS win over the
> Giants in 1989? Or even just give the Giants the championship
> flag? I'm sure Fleischer would go for that, he's really opposed
> to steroids.
I heard two separate callers on KNBR ask about this last week...
Joe F.
Isn't McGwire white? & Gaylord Perry? And Palmeiro wouldn't be treated
the same way in, say, Mississippi as Albert Belle, would he?
Seth Jackson
It takes a rather big stretch to think of that as "cheating on
baseball". The conduct was irrelevant in all respects to play on the
field, and certainly provided him no competitive advantage of any
kind. If anything, it was harmful to his own team, as it was a
distraction for one of his key players.
JVV...@yahoo.com
"Wunnuy" <wun...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:1144609277....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Just as I thought. You can't make a counter argument so you just do
> what you always do, avoid the topic, throw in some lame insult.
That is just how you think.
miguel
Nothing in the subject heading requires that the cheating be related to
play on the field.
miguel
Seth Jackson
If it's not related to playing on the field, then it's not cheating in
baseball.
miguel
Cheater, not cheating.
miguel
ps: Get your facts straight.
MS
> Barry Bonds
> Mark McGwire
> Raffy Palmeiro
> Gaylord Perry
> Albert Belle
> Sammy Sosa
Don't forget Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield
My vote is for Sammy Sosa.