Jesse Helms Just Died
the_andr...@yahoo.com
a.
stephenj
> <gp>
>
> a.
sad ...
--
no liberty was more central (to the founding fathers) than the people's
liberty to govern themselves under rules of their own choice.
- Akhil Amar, Yale Law School
the right in the people to participate in the legislature is the
foundation of liberty and of all free government.
- Delaware Constitution, Declaration of Rights (1776)
stephenj
> <gp>
>
> a.
appropriate it happened on the 4th of July, like Jefferson and Adams.
deem...@aol.com
You mean the day Vicksburg surrendered and Lee started his
retreat from Gettysburg?
Cornelius
Yes, what better day to celebrate the life and death of a homophobic
racist.
--
Cornelius
us
@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, the_andr...@yahoo.com says...
> <gp>
>
> a.
>
I was wondering why today was so much hotter than usual.
Ed
Dan S.
winnard
"Dan S." <danUNDERscoreGO...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mn.22f67d876...@sbcglobal.net...
Really fast Olympic runner who smoked?
winnrad
Dan S.
Pron star who died with AIDS?
xyzzy
<the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <gp>
>
> a.
I only regret that we North Carolinians couldn't have given him a
longer retirement to enjoy. Perhaps, 6, 12, or even 18 years longer.
this will be his legacy:
stephenj
yeah, those glorious events too.
--
10 years from now we'll still be on top.
- p. diddy, 1997
rich hammett
olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, xyzzy:
> I only regret that we North Carolinians couldn't have given him a
> longer retirement to enjoy. Perhaps, 6, 12, or even 18 years longer.
> this will be his legacy:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIyewCdXMzk
I think he had a secret gay marriage.
"To rob the Negro of his reputation of thinking through a problem in his own fashion is about the same as trying to pretend that he doesn't have a natural instinct for rhythm and for singing and dancing,"
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/
\ "How come things that happen to stupid people keep
/ happening to me?!"
Trevor Bauknight
Not really. Can't we just celebrate the magnanimous life of cheer that
he lived and helped provide for all persons?
Trev
rich hammett
Especially those people who have an instinct for dancing and
singing.
rich
xyzzy
Right, which of these Jesse Helms quotes will soar like the rhetoric
of Jefferson and Adams?
"White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes
working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and
factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races." (Willis Smith
1950 Senate campaign ad that Helms helped create)
"The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that's thus
far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic, and interfere
with other men's rights." (WRAL-TV commentary, 1963)
"Crime rates and irresponsibility among Negroes are a fact of life
which must be faced." (New York Times editorial, 1981-02-08)
deem...@aol.com
While not very PC, what's wrong with the last one?
the_andr...@yahoo.com
It's a generalization.
In the US, the individual is responsible for the individual. Assuming
that the federal government should assign or remove rights or
responsibilities on the basis of group membership is wrong.
a.
deem...@aol.com
<the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 7, 8:01 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 7:34 am, xyzzy <xyzzy.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 4, 11:25 am, stephenj <steph...@cox.com> wrote:
>
> > > > the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > <gp>
>
> > > > > a.
>
> > > > appropriate it happened on the 4th of July, like Jefferson and Adams.
>
> > > Right, which of these Jesse Helms quotes will soar like the rhetoric
> > > of Jefferson and Adams?
>
> > > "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes
> > > working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and
> > > factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races." (Willis Smith
> > > 1950 Senate campaign ad that Helms helped create)
>
> > > "The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that's thus
> > > far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic, and interfere
> > > with other men's rights." (WRAL-TV commentary, 1963)
>
> > > "Crime rates and irresponsibility among Negroes are a fact of life
> > > which must be faced." (New York Times editorial, 1981-02-08)
>
> > While not very PC, what's wrong with the last one?
>
> It's a generalization.
And a correct generalization.
>
> In the US, the individual is responsible for the individual. Assuming
> that the federal government should assign or remove rights or
> responsibilities on the basis of group membership is wrong.
>
> a.
Where was removal of rights or responsibilities
mentioned?
Dennis J
through solid matter, for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened
to his brain? Maybe it's scrambled his molecules...
><gp>
>
>a.
hey now, at least he wasn't re-elected...
---
"the Democrat and Republican parties are destroying our country right now,They're destroying our political process." Jesse Ventura
"Education is the progressive discover of our own Ignorance" Will Durant
"people who read the Tabloids deserve to be lied to" Jerry Sienfeld
"One can't have a sense of perspective without a sense of Humor"
"Don't waste a minute not being happy. If one window closes, run to the next window - or break down a door." -- Brooke Shields
"the Glass is not only half full, it has been delicious so far!!" -- ME
To reply, SCRAPE off the end bits.
xyzzy
Try a little harder to view that statement in the context of Mr. Helms
total body of work on the question of race.
HTH!
J.C. Watts Enslin
> On Jul 7, 8:35 am, "the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 7, 8:01 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 7, 7:34 am, xyzzy <xyzzy.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 4, 11:25 am, stephenj <steph...@cox.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > <gp>
>
> > > > > > a.
>
> > > > > appropriate it happened on the 4th of July, like Jefferson and Adams.
>
> > > > Right, which of these Jesse Helms quotes will soar like the rhetoric
> > > > of Jefferson and Adams?
>
> > > > "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes
> > > > working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and
> > > > factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races." (Willis Smith
> > > > 1950 Senate campaign ad that Helms helped create)
>
> > > > "The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that's thus
> > > > far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic, and interfere
> > > > with other men's rights." (WRAL-TV commentary, 1963)
>
> > > > "Crime rates and irresponsibility among Negroes are a fact of life
> > > > which must be faced." (New York Times editorial, 1981-02-08)
>
> > > While not very PC, what's wrong with the last one?
>
> > It's a generalization.
>
> And a correct generalization.
You can take out the word "Negroes" and put in the word "people" and
it is a correct statement. The addition of race does nothing but make
it inflamatory.
Jon
deem...@aol.com
I agree to a point.... but how about if he'd used
"African-Americans".....are you saying that crime rates and
irresponsibility aren't problems in that community? Maybe more of a
problem than in other communities?
I haven't seen the context....coming from Helms it
probably wasn't flattering....but how can anyone deny that it's not a
true statement?
deem...@aol.com
Agreed, but the statement is true.
J.C. Watts Enslin
I know plenty of African Americans that live crime free and
responsible lives. It is therefore inaccurate.
Jon
deem...@aol.com
Have you ever looked at crime rates of different ethnic
groups? Are you saying we can't call a spade a spade?(racial overtones
not intended) I mean, how do you fix specific problems if you can't
deal with specifics. Besides, the African-Americans I know would agree
with the statement....they're the ones most effected by the crime
rate....they might resent the source....
Ike
Damb immugrunts.
--
Yrs.,
Ike
********************************************************
"L'audace, L'audace, Toujour L'audace."
********************************************************
http://www.frappr.com/rsfckers
Ike
So, take it up with Bill Cosby.
Ike
That makes it factually incorrect, right?
HAND!
xyzzy
> xyzzy wrote:
> > On Jul 7, 8:01 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 7, 7:34 am, xyzzy <xyzzy.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> "Crime rates and irresponsibility among Negroes are a fact of life
> >>> which must be faced." (New York Times editorial, 1981-02-08)
> >> While not very PC, what's wrong with the last one?
>
> > Try a little harder to view that statement in the context of Mr. Helms
> > total body of work on the question of race.
>
> > HTH!
>
> That makes it factually incorrect, right?
>
> HAND!
>
Try a little thought experiment. consider this hypothetical quote:
Crime rates and irresponsibility among Vietnam vets are a fact of life
which must be faced.
How would you react to it if the speaker were:
1. John McCain
2. Jane Fonda
Ike
I see where you are coming from. Really.
Honestly?
I would immediately want to check facts if Jane-oi said it.
I would probably take it at face if McCain said it.
J.C. Watts Enslin
I agree...but the crime rates also are vastly different based on
gender and location (urban v. non-urban). It isn't a simple "black
problem." It is also a male problem and an urban one which means that
simple solutions like "we need more Bill Cosbys" while nice and
helpful, certainly won't solve anything.
The problem with Helms' statement is that it painted an ethnic group
with a broad brush when it should be more specific than that.
Jon
deem...@aol.com
I think you will find rural and small town black
populations have comparatively high rates.....it's more of an income
problem.
I agree with what you're saying, I just thought it was a
poor choice of quotes....I'm sure Jesse had much worse.
deem...@aol.com
the_andr...@yahoo.com
In context. The removal of rights or responsibilities is implied in
the context in which the statement is made.
The context is the intent behind the statement. It was to inflame.
It was to inflame with the intent of changing the rights of a group of
people.
What if he had made this statement, 'Crime rates and irresponsibility
among people are a fact of life which must be faced', then proposed
some change in regulations.
A reasonable response to that would be, 'Duh! People commit crimes and
are irresponsible. Do we really need some new Federal regulations to
manage that?'
Finally, how can a generalization be correct when rights and
responsibilities are granted individually?
a.
the_andr...@yahoo.com
This is loaded with problems.
First, define African-American. This is your biggest problem.
Second, how does one hold the African-American Community as a whole
responsible for the actions of individuals within the African-American
Community? Responsibility to the law of the land is an individual
issue. If a correction is needed because someone breaks the law, the
correction is applied to the someone - not some sociological construct
to which the someone belongs.
For instance, let's assume that violent crimes are committed by a
greater number of men than women. Should men be somehow regulated
differently?
a.
Unclaimed Mysteries
It's the same with diversity. I mean how are we ever going to have
diversity if everybody keeps thinking for themselves?
-cls
--
It Came From Corry Lee Smith's Unclaimed Mysteries.
http://www.unclaimedmysteries.net
In a time of deception telling the truth is a revolutionary act. -
George Orwell
deem...@aol.com
Where does the quote say they are being held responsible
or treated differently? If a sector of society....black, white, poor,
male, etc has a specific problem, isn't it better to treat the
specific problem? I know, considering the source, it's easy to think
that Helms meant blacks were inferior, etc....but that's not what the
quote says.
deem...@aol.com
You're inferring. The statement....what is actually
said....doesn't imply anything of the sort.
>
> The context is the intent behind the statement. It was to inflame.
> It was to inflame with the intent of changing the rights of a group of
> people.
Given the source, I can't argue.....but I'd have to see
the whole speech, interview, etc.
>
> What if he had made this statement, 'Crime rates and irresponsibility
> among people are a fact of life which must be faced', then proposed
> some change in regulations.
>
> A reasonable response to that would be, 'Duh! People commit crimes and
> are irresponsible. Do we really need some new Federal regulations to
> manage that?'
What if he simply meant that crime rates and
irresponsibility(drug use, unemployment?) among blacks is higher than
the societal average and so maybe some specific things targeting that
might be called for. It's easy to say, 'Yeah! We need more police in
the ghetto and more checkpoints to make sure they don't mix with
normal people!"....but it could just as easily be a call for social,
developmental, and educational programs to help combat the problems.
>
> Finally, how can a generalization be correct when rights and
> responsibilities are granted individually?
Because there's only so much time, energy, and money
available and, just maybe, they should be applied where the need is
greatest?
>
> a.
deem...@aol.com
I think we should just pretend everyone is the same. We all
have the same wants and needs, the same abilities, etc.....it would
make everything much, uh, simpler.
the_andr...@yahoo.com
No, you're inferring.
The statement was originally uttered in a particulat context, which
you've removed to imply something else.
> > The context is the intent behind the statement. It was to inflame.
> > It was to inflame with the intent of changing the rights of a group of
> > people.
>
> Given the source, I can't argue.....but I'd have to see
> the whole speech, interview, etc.
>
>
>
> > What if he had made this statement, 'Crime rates and irresponsibility
> > among people are a fact of life which must be faced', then proposed
> > some change in regulations.
>
> > A reasonable response to that would be, 'Duh! People commit crimes and
> > are irresponsible. Do we really need some new Federal regulations to
> > manage that?'
>
> What if he simply meant that crime rates and
> irresponsibility(drug use, unemployment?) among blacks is higher than
> the societal average and so maybe some specific things targeting that
> might be called for. It's easy to say, 'Yeah! We need more police in
> the ghetto and more checkpoints to make sure they don't mix with
> normal people!"....but it could just as easily be a call for social,
> developmental, and educational programs to help combat the problems.
Fair enough. If he said that would you recommend new federal
regulations? Specifically regulations against a group of people -
most of which are not culpable?
> > Finally, how can a generalization be correct when rights and
> > responsibilities are granted individually?
>
> Because there's only so much time, energy, and money
> available and, just maybe, they should be applied where the need is
> greatest?
Yes. Toward individuals.
a.
Chris Bellomy
> On Jul 7, 8:35 am, "the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com"
> <the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> While not very PC, what's wrong with the last one?
>> It's a generalization.
>
> And a correct generalization.
It's also arbitrary. That's the problem.
He could have more accurately railed against crimes committed
by poor young men. After all, men outpace women in crime at a
rate that makes black vs. white look like a dead heat. But no,
he chose to arbitrarily categorize people on account of race
in order to exploit ancient fears.
Jesse is sucking Satan's cock in hell today.
Chris Bellomy
> Have you ever looked at crime rates of different ethnic
> groups?
Have you ever compared crime rates of the two genders?
Have you ever compared crime rates by age?
Have you ever compared crime rates by income?
cb
Ike
Chris Bellomy
> Chris Bellomy wrote:
>> deem...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 9:15 AM:
>>
>>> Have you ever looked at crime rates of different ethnic
>>> groups?
>>
>> Have you ever compared crime rates of the two genders?
>>
>> Have you ever compared crime rates by age?
>>
>> Have you ever compared crime rates by income?
>>
>> cb
>
>
> Like this?
>
> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
Gawd, reading isn't your strong point, is it?
Are you trying to line up behind Jesse for next go
at Satan's cock?
Ike
> Ike wrote, On 7/7/08 12:53 PM:
>> Chris Bellomy wrote:
>>> deem...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 9:15 AM:
>>>
>>>> Have you ever looked at crime rates of different ethnic
>>>> groups?
>>>
>>> Have you ever compared crime rates of the two genders?
>>>
>>> Have you ever compared crime rates by age?
>>>
>>> Have you ever compared crime rates by income?
>>>
>>> cb
>>
>>
>> Like this?
>>
>> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
>
> Gawd, reading isn't your strong point, is it?
Probably moreso than most people realize.
>
> Are you trying to line up behind Jesse for next go
> at Satan's cock?
There is only one person here who seems to be infatuated with the thought.
And it ain't me.
deem...@aol.com
> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 9:15 AM:
Yes. Your point? Or are you just having a kneejerk reaction to
a quite simple concept?
deem...@aol.com
What context did I remove? That Helms was a racist
scumbag?
>
>
>
>
>
> > > The context is the intent behind the statement. It was to inflame.
> > > It was to inflame with the intent of changing the rights of a group of
> > > people.
>
> > Given the source, I can't argue.....but I'd have to see
> > the whole speech, interview, etc.
>
> > > What if he had made this statement, 'Crime rates and irresponsibility
> > > among people are a fact of life which must be faced', then proposed
> > > some change in regulations.
>
> > > A reasonable response to that would be, 'Duh! People commit crimes and
> > > are irresponsible. Do we really need some new Federal regulations to
> > > manage that?'
>
> > What if he simply meant that crime rates and
> > irresponsibility(drug use, unemployment?) among blacks is higher than
> > the societal average and so maybe some specific things targeting that
> > might be called for. It's easy to say, 'Yeah! We need more police in
> > the ghetto and more checkpoints to make sure they don't mix with
> > normal people!"....but it could just as easily be a call for social,
> > developmental, and educational programs to help combat the problems.
>
> Fair enough. If he said that would you recommend new federal
> regulations? Specifically regulations against a group of people -
> most of which are not culpable?
What regulations do you keep referring to? Is targeting
high crime areas with more resources "regulations'?
>
> > > Finally, how can a generalization be correct when rights and
> > > responsibilities are granted individually?
>
> > Because there's only so much time, energy, and money
> > available and, just maybe, they should be applied where the need is
> > greatest?
>
> Yes. Toward individuals.
>
> a.
It's all going to go towards individuals. That doesn't
mean there aren't areas or segments of the population that might
benefit from targeting the benefits/regulations/whatever you want to
call them.
deem...@aol.com
> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 7:43 AM:
He could have.....he didn't.....that doesn't make the
statement wrong.
>
> Jesse is sucking Satan's cock in hell today.
What you just did is as much of a sin as anything
Jesse Helms ever did. Will you be joining him at the Satan's cock
buffet?
Chris Bellomy
> On Jul 7, 1:46 pm, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 9:15 AM:
>>
>>> Have you ever looked at crime rates of different ethnic
>>> groups?
>> Have you ever compared crime rates of the two genders?
>>
>> Have you ever compared crime rates by age?
>>
>> Have you ever compared crime rates by income?
>
My point is that you can slice statistics in all kinds of ways.
Some of them are meaningful. Some are less meaningful, but can
be cited as though they are definitive.
That's why we have the old bromide about "lies, damned lies,
and statistics."
cb
Chris Bellomy
> What you just did is as much of a sin as anything
> Jesse Helms ever did. Will you be joining him at the Satan's cock
> buffet?
I dispute your contention.
cb
the_andr...@yahoo.com
> Ike wrote, On 7/7/08 12:53 PM:
>
>
>
> > Chris Bellomy wrote:
>
> >>> Have you ever looked at crime rates of different ethnic
> >>> groups?
>
> >> Have you ever compared crime rates of the two genders?
>
> >> Have you ever compared crime rates by age?
>
> >> Have you ever compared crime rates by income?
>
> >> cb
>
> > Like this?
>
> >http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
>
> Gawd, reading isn't your strong point, is it?
>
> Are you trying to line up behind Jesse for next go
> at Satan's cock?
This kind of insulting crap is why nobody listens to you.
a.
Chris Bellomy
Hey, that's good insulting shit. I even quote Bill Hicks
in it!
cb
deem...@aol.com
> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 1:44 PM:
You brought up Satan....I just figured I throw a little
Christian theology your way.
deem...@aol.com
> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 1:39 PM:
Agreed, but are you denying that "black communities" have
higher than average crime rates?
Chris Bellomy
> On Jul 7, 3:29 pm, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 1:44 PM:
>>
>>> What you just did is as much of a sin as anything
>>> Jesse Helms ever did. Will you be joining him at the Satan's cock
>>> buffet?
>> I dispute your contention.
>
> Christian theology your way.
Actually, I was referencing Bill Hicks talking about Jay Leno.
cb
Chris Bellomy
> On Jul 7, 3:28 pm, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 1:39 PM:
>>
>>> On Jul 7, 1:46 pm, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
>>>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 9:15 AM:
>>>>> Have you ever looked at crime rates of different ethnic
>>>>> groups?
>>>> Have you ever compared crime rates of the two genders?
>>>> Have you ever compared crime rates by age?
>>>> Have you ever compared crime rates by income?
>>> Yes. Your point?
>> My point is that you can slice statistics in all kinds of ways.
>> Some of them are meaningful. Some are less meaningful, but can
>> be cited as though they are definitive.
>>
>> That's why we have the old bromide about "lies, damned lies,
>> and statistics."
>
> higher than average crime rates?
No, I'm disputing whether that's a statistic worth tracking. What
is it supposed to mean? That black people are criminals?
rich hammett
olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Chris Bellomy:
I'd be interested in stats correlated for income and
education level, myself.
rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/
\ "How come things that happen to stupid people keep
/ happening to me?!"
deem...@aol.com
> Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
> olisi pitänyt tietää KUKA SINÄ OLET, Chris Bellomy:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> On Jul 7, 3:28 pm, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
> >>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 1:39 PM:
>
> >>>> On Jul 7, 1:46 pm, Chris Bellomy <ten.wohsdoog@sirhc> wrote:
> >>>>> deemsb...@aol.com wrote, On 7/7/08 9:15 AM:
> >>>>>> Have you ever looked at crime rates of different ethnic
> >>>>>> groups?
> >>>>> Have you ever compared crime rates of the two genders?
> >>>>> Have you ever compared crime rates by age?
> >>>>> Have you ever compared crime rates by income?
> >>>> Yes. Your point?
> >>> My point is that you can slice statistics in all kinds of ways.
> >>> Some of them are meaningful. Some are less meaningful, but can
> >>> be cited as though they are definitive.
>
> >>> That's why we have the old bromide about "lies, damned lies,
> >>> and statistics."
>
> >> Agreed, but are you denying that "black communities" have
> >> higher than average crime rates?
> > No, I'm disputing whether that's a statistic worth tracking. What
> > is it supposed to mean? That black people are criminals?
>
> I'd be interested in stats correlated for income and
> education level, myself.
>
> rich
> --
>
Which could very well be the reason for the
stat.....that doesn't make the stat wrong.......
rich hammett
> stat.....that doesn't make the stat wrong.......
It makes it evil, though. The stat, by itself, is clearly fixing
attention on group guilt by race. It's as if we pointed out
that 99% of the lynchers and race-murderers in the south
were white. I don't think there is sufficient guilt to
cover the entire group of honkies.
deem...@aol.com
> Minun olisi pitänyt tietää, olisi pitänyt tietää,
I have no problem with that stat....may not be
comfortable for some, but it's probably accurate.
rich hammett
> I have no problem with that stat....may not be
> comfortable for some, but it's probably accurate.
There are contexts in which that stat would not be evil. This
group isn't one of them, any more than FauxNudes.