ACC - Big Changes Ahead
the_andr...@yahoo.com
The combination of:
Teams with proven new coaches...
O'Brien to NCSU
Davis to UNC
Cutcliffe to Duke
Johnson to GT
Teams soon to be getting a new coach...
Bowden leaving FSU
Bowden likely leaving Clempson
Teams with coaches that should do well...
Shannon at Miami
That leaves:
Beamer - who has done a very good job for some time
Jagodzinski - who I know nothing about
I'm thinking the ACC will be much improved NEXT year.
In the coming years, if some of these same coaches (esp. Cutcliffe &
Davis) stick around and some others (Friedgen, Groh) either really get
something going or get fired, things will continue to improve.
I suspect the ACC will be a much, much tougher place to play in win in
the next 3-5 years.
a.
Hoover
<the_andr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:23809f57-9544-40de...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Carl Banks
This is what people (like, for instance, me) were saying about the Big
East 2 or 3 years ago.
Carl Banks
the_andr...@yahoo.com
> <the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:23809f57-9544-40de...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >I may be premature in saying this, but...
>
> > The combination of:
>
> > Teams with proven new coaches...
> > O'Brien to NCSU
> > Davis to UNC
> > Cutcliffe to Duke
> > Johnson to GT
>
> > Teams soon to be getting a new coach...
> > Bowden leaving FSU
> > Bowden likely leaving Clempson
>
>
>
I disagree with this. I think Groh is kinda stuck in the middle right
now. He did a good job last year.
I only wonder how much longer he wants to coach. He's probably in his
mid 60s.
a.
the_andr...@yahoo.com
The loss of a couple high profile coaches really changes all of this
doesn't it?
I suspect that UT would call Cutcliffe if Fulmer ever leaves, but Dook
sinking back to the bottom really doesn't mean much.
Butch Davis probably won't stay at UNC for too long if he has some
success.
Paul Johnson probably won't go anywhere.
Shannon still has much to prove.
Beamer knows how good he has it.
O'Brien doesn't strike me as a pro guy or someone wanting a much
higher profile gig than he has.
The next FSU coach, if succesful, won't leave.
So, the major loss could be a potentially succesful Davis at UNC.
Hardly irreplaceable.
a.
xyzzy
We Hokies love Al Groh at UVa, so much so that we often find ourselves
cheering for the 'hoos to win games, but just enough to make sure he
doesn't get fired. I think UVA could fund a lifetime contract for
Groh with contributions from Hokie fans if they wanted to.
the_andr...@yahoo.com
I would be careful with that wish.
In their first six years at their current schools.
Beamer
1987 2-9-0
1988 3-8-0
1989 6-4-1
1990 6-5-0
1991 5-6-0
1992 2-8-1
Groh
2001 5-7
2002 9-6
2003 8-5
2004 8-4
2005 7-5
2006 5-7
While Groh may have peaked last year, I'm not necessarily sure he has.
VT's beaten him twice at UVA (06 & 04) and only one was by a wide
marging.
a.
Edward M. Kennedy
<I suspect that UT would call Cutcliffe if Fulmer ever leaves, but Dook
<sinking back to the bottom really doesn't mean much.
Duke will build a rocket ship and lay claim to the moon if Cutcliffe
wants it. They have given him a blank check to do whatever he wants.
I realize there are much higher profile jobs out there, but Cutcliffe
can spend the rest of his life at Duke and be a very rich man. Duke
has committed to making football work (despite my longstanding objection
that we might as well drop football), and if can he make it work he
can be the football equivalent of Coach K.
He'll never have the success of Coach K, and everyone knows it, but
he can have the renovated stadium named after him. Duke is well aware
of what they didn't offer to Spurrier. I don't think they'll make that
mistake again. They'll double any offer.
--Tedward
the_andr...@yahoo.com
> <the_andrew_sm...@yahoo.com> wrote
They can double the offer, but they can't halve the entrance
requirements (any more than already).
Duke can't put 100k in the stands, offer SEC competition and
recruiting.
We'll see. I hope they can keep him.
a.
xyzzy
I see your point, but it's kind of an apples to oranges comparison for
two reasons. First, Beamer inherited a program on probation and with
no conference affiliation. Groh came into a much better situation.
But, the main point is that when VT has a good record, they usually
beat UVa. Usually when they lose to Uva, they suck anyway (there are
exceptions both ways of course). OTOH, Even when Groh has good
records at Uva, he struggles against the Hokies. Like last year, or
2002 or 2004. That's why we like him.
Plus his pomposity is pure rival gold. How can you not love a rival
coach who bans signs from the stadium because it might hurt some
feelings, or who exaggerates his NFL experience?
xyzzy
IAWTP. There was no way Duke was keeping Spurrier. Trust me. I have
a co-worker who used to start for Duke. Cutcliffe may not be as much
of a, umm, Spurrier, as Spurrier but it will take a special kind of
guy to stay at Duke after turning that program around -- and a lot of
appreciate from the Dukies.
Edward M. Kennedy
> > <I suspect that UT would call Cutcliffe if Fulmer ever leaves, but Dook
> > <sinking back to the bottom really doesn't mean much.
>
> > Duke will build a rocket ship and lay claim to the moon if Cutcliffe
> > wants it. They have given him a blank check to do whatever he wants.
>
> > I realize there are much higher profile jobs out there, but Cutcliffe
> > can spend the rest of his life at Duke and be a very rich man. Duke
> > has committed to making football work (despite my longstanding objection
> > that we might as well drop football), and if can he make it work he
> > can be the football equivalent of Coach K.
>
> > He'll never have the success of Coach K, and everyone knows it, but
> > he can have the renovated stadium named after him. Duke is well aware
> > of what they didn't offer to Spurrier. I don't think they'll make that
> > mistake again. They'll double any offer.
>
> They can double the offer, but they can't halve the entrance
> requirements (any more than already).
Coach K has the same problem, albeit not as difficult to find
7 or 8 good players instead of 30. I've long argued this is
why Duke should try to weasle out of football, and others have
countered "Standford does it". The right coach can deal with
this.
> Duke can't put 100k in the stands, offer SEC competition and
> recruiting.
>
> We'll see. I hope they can keep him.
<
<IAWTP. There was no way Duke was keeping Spurrier. Trust me. I have
<a co-worker who used to start for Duke. Cutcliffe may not be as much
<of a, umm, Spurrier, as Spurrier but it will take a special kind of
<guy to stay at Duke after turning that program around -- and a lot of
<appreciate from the Dukies.
I don't think Spurrier had any intention of ever staying at Duke.
Cutcliffe seems to have bought into what Duke is trying to do.
Yeah, he might move on. But he can have A Long And Happy Life
here if he wants.
As much as he's trying to improve the team, he is selling football
to the students, employees, and alumni in a way I've never seen.
It's hard to explain. I've never seen a Duke coach focus so much
on getting people to care.
We're only 2-1 against shitty teams, but it's working.
--Tedward
J.C. Watts Enslin
Edward M. Kennedy
> > <I suspect that UT would call Cutcliffe if Fulmer ever leaves, but Dook
> > <sinking back to the bottom really doesn't mean much.
>
> > Duke will build a rocket ship and lay claim to the moon if Cutcliffe
> > wants it. They have given him a blank check to do whatever he wants.
>
> > I realize there are much higher profile jobs out there, but Cutcliffe
> > can spend the rest of his life at Duke and be a very rich man. Duke
> > has committed to making football work (despite my longstanding objection
> > that we might as well drop football), and if can he make it work he
> > can be the football equivalent of Coach K.
>
> > He'll never have the success of Coach K, and everyone knows it, but
> > he can have the renovated stadium named after him. Duke is well aware
> > of what they didn't offer to Spurrier. I don't think they'll make that
> > mistake again. They'll double any offer.
>
> They can double the offer, but they can't halve the entrance
> requirements (any more than already).
<
<Sure they can.
They can, but won't. As much as the Duke administration wants to
succeed in football, they are not going to tarnish the main product
with football scandals or low graduation rates. The key to recruiting
at a school like Duke is insisting we'll get you to the pros if you
are good enough, while also pointing out that most college football
players are going to have to rely on their degree instead.
To be successful in the long run, Cutcliffe has to get some draft
picks. And good, dedicated players who don't quite make it need to
get into the Fuqua business school along with a coaching position.
--Tedward
the_andr...@yahoo.com
Agreed on all points, except the last paragraph - only because I have
no knowledge.
a.
the_andr...@yahoo.com
> "xyzzy" <xyzzy.d...@gmail.com> wrote
Spurrier won the hypesman at UF. He knew where he wanted to be.
> As much as he's trying to improve the team, he is selling football
> to the students, employees, and alumni in a way I've never seen.
> It's hard to explain. I've never seen a Duke coach focus so much
> on getting people to care.
I agree on this part. He knows what he's doing about changing the
culture.
a.
the_andr...@yahoo.com
Dear Mr. Semantics,
They won't.
Is that better?
No need to reply.
Sincerely,
Mr. You Get My Point.
J.C. Watts Enslin
> "J.C. Watts Enslin" <jens...@charter.net> wrote
>
>
>
>
>
> > > <I suspect that UT would call Cutcliffe if Fulmer ever leaves, but Dook
> > > <sinking back to the bottom really doesn't mean much.
>
> > > Duke will build a rocket ship and lay claim to the moon if Cutcliffe
> > > wants it. They have given him a blank check to do whatever he wants.
>
> > > I realize there are much higher profile jobs out there, but Cutcliffe
> > > can spend the rest of his life at Duke and be a very rich man. Duke
> > > has committed to making football work (despite my longstanding objection
> > > that we might as well drop football), and if can he make it work he
> > > can be the football equivalent of Coach K.
>
> > > He'll never have the success of Coach K, and everyone knows it, but
> > > he can have the renovated stadium named after him. Duke is well aware
> > > of what they didn't offer to Spurrier. I don't think they'll make that
> > > mistake again. They'll double any offer.
>
> > They can double the offer, but they can't halve the entrance
> > requirements (any more than already).
>
> <
> <Sure they can.
>
> They can, but won't. As much as the Duke administration wants to
> succeed in football, they are not going to tarnish the main product
> with football scandals or low graduation rates. The key to recruiting
> at a school like Duke is insisting we'll get you to the pros if you
> are good enough, while also pointing out that most college football
> players are going to have to rely on their degree instead.
Well then Duke is really never going to succeed much at football. I'm
sorry, but the degree argument loses a little weight when good schools
across the country offer degrees AND quality football. U$C, Georgia
Tech, Michigan (heh) all seem to have solid academic reputations as
well as solid football programs. (And I'm sorry, but a degree at any
of the schools above, plus many others, are worth just as much as a
Duke degree is.) I think this "protecting our academic integrity"
argument is a bit of a red herring.
Jon
J.C. Watts Enslin
I'm sorry, but I should have expanded on my point like I did with Mr.
Kennedy.
Jon
Edward M. Kennedy
> > > <I suspect that UT would call Cutcliffe if Fulmer ever leaves, but Dook
> > > <sinking back to the bottom really doesn't mean much.
>
> > > Duke will build a rocket ship and lay claim to the moon if Cutcliffe
> > > wants it. They have given him a blank check to do whatever he wants.
>
> > > I realize there are much higher profile jobs out there, but Cutcliffe
> > > can spend the rest of his life at Duke and be a very rich man. Duke
> > > has committed to making football work (despite my longstanding objection
> > > that we might as well drop football), and if can he make it work he
> > > can be the football equivalent of Coach K.
>
> > > He'll never have the success of Coach K, and everyone knows it, but
> > > he can have the renovated stadium named after him. Duke is well aware
> > > of what they didn't offer to Spurrier. I don't think they'll make that
> > > mistake again. They'll double any offer.
>
> > They can double the offer, but they can't halve the entrance
> > requirements (any more than already).
>
> <
> <Sure they can.
>
> They can, but won't. As much as the Duke administration wants to
> succeed in football, they are not going to tarnish the main product
> with football scandals or low graduation rates. The key to recruiting
> at a school like Duke is insisting we'll get you to the pros if you
> are good enough, while also pointing out that most college football
> players are going to have to rely on their degree instead.
<
<Well then Duke is really never going to succeed much at football.
Spurrier aside, no shit sherlock.
<I'm
<sorry, but the degree argument loses a little weight when good schools
<across the country offer degrees AND quality football. U$C, Georgia
<Tech, Michigan (heh) all seem to have solid academic reputations as
<well as solid football programs. (And I'm sorry, but a degree at any
<of the schools above, plus many others, are worth just as much as a
<Duke degree is.)
You make me giggle.
<I think this "protecting our academic integrity"
<argument is a bit of a red herring.
The would explain all the graduation rate honors the footbal program
has won, and also why Coach K didn't hang a certain Final Four banner
for so many years.
But you keep pretending you have a rscfcking clue about Duke atheltics.
--Tedward
J.C. Watts Enslin
> "J.C. Watts Enslin" <jens...@charter.net> wrote
Glad to be of service.
> <I think this "protecting our academic integrity"
> <argument is a bit of a red herring.
>
> The would explain all the graduation rate honors the footbal program
> has won, and also why Coach K didn't hang a certain Final Four banner
> for so many years.
The reason Coach K hasn't hung a Final Four banner in a number of
years is because his apparently doesn't see the need to coach defense
any longer. He still brings in very highly rated classes but keeps
losing to the same types of teams *every* year - the long, rangy types
that dominate college basketball now. He hasn't adjusted to this - he
keeps trying to win with the same types of basketball players that he
won with 10-20 years ago, but the game has changed *a lot* since
then. So unless you are going to tell me that long, rangy kids are
dumb, your argument really is a red herring.
> But you keep pretending you have a rscfcking clue about Duke atheltics.
I will.
Jon
Edward M. Kennedy
the_andr...@yahoo.com
There's a lot of wrong in that last paragraph.
a.
the_andr...@yahoo.com
He wasn't talking about any banner.
a.
J.C. Watts Enslin
> "J.C. Watts Enslin" <jens...@charter.net> wrote
Look at last year's results. How many times did opponents break 70?
80? Granted they won many of those games because they can shoot, but
their defense has been terrible the last few years.
Jon
Edward M. Kennedy
> > The would explain all the graduation rate honors the footbal program
> > has won, and also why Coach K didn't hang a certain Final Four banner
> > for so many years.
>
> <
> <The reason Coach K hasn't hung a Final Four banner in a number of
> <years is because his apparently doesn't see the need to coach defense
> <any longer.
>
> Shiney.
<
<Look at last year's results. How many times did opponents break 70?
<80? Granted they won many of those games because they can shoot, but
<their defense has been terrible the last few years.
That would explain why Pomeroy had them ranked 9th in defense last
year.
Hey Donnie,
You're a UNC fan and a pretty good player who's seen Duke in person.
Can you tell this moron what a moron he is?
--Tedward
Edward M. Kennedy
Coach K didn't hang a Final Four banner they earned in the 80's
because some players didn't graduate. Quite being such a dumb
fuck or trolling.
--Tedward
J.C. Watts Enslin
> "J.C. Watts Enslin" <jens...@charter.net> wrote
>
> > > The would explain all the graduation rate honors the footbal program
> > > has won, and also why Coach K didn't hang a certain Final Four banner
> > > for so many years.
>
> > <
> > <The reason Coach K hasn't hung a Final Four banner in a number of
> > <years is because his apparently doesn't see the need to coach defense
> > <any longer.
>
> > Shiney.
>
> <
> <Look at last year's results. How many times did opponents break 70?
> <80? Granted they won many of those games because they can shoot, but
> <their defense has been terrible the last few years.
>
> That would explain why Pomeroy had them ranked 9th in defense last
> year.
And had Marquette ranked 10th. But as a Marquette fan, that is an
indictment of how poor the Pomeroy rankings are because neither Duke
nor Marquette could stop good teams when it mattered.
Jon
J.C. Watts Enslin
> "J.C. Watts Enslin" <jens...@charter.net> wrote
Right. He did it because he was a better coach then.
Jon
Edward M. Kennedy
Perhaps you're confusing rebounding with defense.
As to your logic, I guess anyone without the NC didn't stop
good teams "when it mattered".
--Tedward
jimbr...@yahoo.com
Good thing we dont do that in the Big Ten.
Donnie Barnes
I take a break from the basketball group for a couple months, come back,
and the most interesting post is something crossposted from an rsfc member
ABOUT DUKE and Ted wanting ME to respond to it?
In the immortal words of Buford T. Justice: "What in the HELL is the world
comin' to?"
--Donnie
Edward M. Kennedy
What we're dealing with here is a complete lack of respect for the statistics.
--Tedward
Donnie Barnes
> "Donnie Barnes" <djbSPA...@donniebarnes.com> wrote
>> In the immortal words of Buford T. Justice: "What in the HELL is the world
>> comin' to?"
>
> What we're dealing with here is a complete lack of respect for the statistics.
I'm sure your daddy punched your momma in the mouth on several occasions.
--Donnie
Edward M. Kennedy
>>> In the immortal words of Buford T. Justice: "What in the HELL is the world
>>> comin' to?"
>>
>> What we're dealing with here is a complete lack of respect for the statistics.
>
> I'm sure your daddy punched your momma in the mouth on several occasions.
Duck, or you're gonna be talkin' out yo ass!
--Tedward
Donnie Barnes
I oughtta be in Nashville.
--Donnie
Edward M. Kennedy
>>>>> In the immortal words of Buford T. Justice: "What in the HELL is the world
>>>>> comin' to?"
>>>>
>>>> What we're dealing with here is a complete lack of respect for the statistics.
>>>
>>> I'm sure your daddy punched your momma in the mouth on several occasions.
>>
>> Duck, or you're gonna be talkin' out yo ass!
>
> I oughtta be in Nashville.
If you're gonna hang out in places like this, wear a badge on your didey.
--Tedward
Donnie Barnes
The God-damned Germans got nothing to do with this!
--Donnie
Edward M. Kennedy
>>>>>>> In the immortal words of Buford T. Justice: "What in the HELL is the world
>>>>>>> comin' to?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What we're dealing with here is a complete lack of respect for the statistics.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure your daddy punched your momma in the mouth on several occasions.
>>>>
>>>> Duck, or you're gonna be talkin' out yo ass!
>>>
>>> I oughtta be in Nashville.
>>
>> If you're gonna hang out in places like this, wear a badge on your didey.
>
> The God-damned Germans got nothing to do with this!
Would a cop taking a leak on the side of the road interest you?
--Tedward
Donnie Barnes
That's a 10-100.
--Donnie
Edward M. Kennedy
At least it's not a 10-*200*.
--Tedward
You knew that was coming
Donnie Barnes
Shitty job.
--Donnie
Edward M. Kennedy
Donnie Barnes
You've got a nice profile.
--Donnie
Edward M. Kennedy
Donnie Barnes
Cowboys love fat calves.
--Donnie
Edward M. Kennedy
Donnie Barnes
Well, one of us does.
--Donnie