<DG> Lost Disc
Rodney
Well, now that Scott "Rules Man" Wolfe and other
interested (or not) parties have returned from
Worlds, I can weigh in on a recent topic.
As you may have seen, the Rules Committee has
issued an official response to the question of
where to mark a disc if it is found after the
3-minute time limit but before the next throw.
The ruling can be read at pdga.com.
I think their ruling is absolutely incorrect.
If, as they state, the intent of the current rule
is to give a best approximation of where the disc
would have ended up, then the rule should be changed
to say "marked where the group thinks the disc
would have ended up".
As it is, the rule says "last seen", and in 99% of
the cases, that spot is probably quite far from where
the disc actually ended up.
To me, their ruling goes against the current wording of
the rule. In fact, I don't think the current rule is
hardly even open to interpretation. It's pretty clear
that "last seen" means before the search begins, whether
the disc is found later or not.
In addition to going against the rule, their ruling opens
up all kinds of strange situations that would be better
left alone (disc OB when found, disc over 2m when found,
disc found right when player is throwing next throw, disc
found in much much worse place than where "last seen").
Thoughts? (Yes, I know there are members of the rules
committee that read this. No offense, of course, I just
think the committee is wrong.)
Thanks,
rodney
Shannon Winn
Rodney wrote >
>As you may have seen, the Rules Committee has
>issued an official response to the question of
>where to mark a disc if it is found after the
>3-minute time limit but before the next throw.
>The ruling can be read at pdga.com.
>
>I think their ruling is absolutely incorrect.
I do too. I also believe that any rule that requires an opinion from "the
Group" is inherently unfair and subjective.
The best way to handle the lost disc scenario is the way ball golf does
it--Go back and re-throw (hit) from your last lie with a stroke penalty (the
throw you lost counts too!)--Same for everyone; not open to troublesome
opinions; easy to remember.
Also "the group" ought to STOP LOOKING after the time limit expires. The
time limit should be just that- a strict limit. Once it has expired the
disc should be lost, no matter what, and no matter where it is found.
In the immortal words of another Rodney "C'mon...while we're young!"
wi...@enter.net
Bill Burns
As you know, the rules committee is run by volunteers who have given
blood, sweat tears, and most importantly, TIME, to the sport by
attempting to refine and guide the rules of disc golf. I am very
hesitant to criticize their rulings.
That having been said, I am going to criticize their ruling. If a disc
is not found after three minutes, then it is lost (just as was stated
by the committee on the website). That means that the mark should be
where the disc was last seen, regardless of whether it was found before
that mark was established.
I don't like the idea of the double penalty of lost and having to throw
from the yuk. I have stated before my opinion, and am disappointed
they did not follow it.
SUMMARY: It doesn't matter if the disc is found after 3 minutes. The
group decides on a mark (where it was last seen) and plays on from
there with 1 penalty stroke to the thrower.
--
almost as handsome and humble as Ed Headrick
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Conrad Damon
That's what the Rules Committee is here for, to be disagreed with. No
offense, especially because in this case I had the same view but was
alone with it and gave in to the majority. I wrote:
> "where the disc was last seen" is the key phrase here. Although the
> implication is for "last seen" to apply in the normal case to the disc
> when it was flying, that's not explicitly stated. It could go either
> way. The intent of the rule seems to me to be to mark the disc where
> it was last seen during its flight. I think the most consistent
> interpretation is that a disc is lost when it's declared lost, and
> finding it afterward does not affect where the lie for the next shot
> is.
was what I wrote a while back. The prevailing opinion was that (as Dr
Rick Voakes replied):
> The intent of the rule is to be fair, and to assign a lie that most
> closely approximates the real place where the player threw it!
Unfortunately that doesn't really come through in the language of the
rule ("last seen" is as you suggest different from "likely to have ended
up") though that was probably the intent of the rule when written.
We're sort of on our own since golf assesses stroke and distance. Our
friendlier rules (which also speed play) mean to assess the stroke and
then give the player a decent lie, since the lie where the disc was lost
is often nasty. Whether it's necessary to coddle the player to that
degree is a good question, but I believe that's the intent behind "last
seen" as opposed to "where it probably is".
But when the disc is found after having been declared lost, it is very
intuitive to play it from where it ended up. In the case where that's a
better lie (perhaps much farther down the fairway) than where it was
last seen, it would be tough to explain to the player why he had to go
back. The fact that it's intuitive (if a bit inconsistent) is what
swayed me.
Conrad
Scott Wolfe
The following pertains to a PDGA rules discussion
In article <7pepi9$k09$1...@ins20.netins.net>, rod...@worf.netins.net says...
>
>
>Well, now that Scott "Rules Man" Wolfe and other
S: Thanks Rodney. We'll address that 'title' another time.
<snip>
>As you may have seen, the Rules Committee has
>issued an official response to the question of
>where to mark a disc if it is found after the
>3-minute time limit but before the next throw.
>The ruling can be read at pdga.com.
S: http://www.pdga.com/lost_found.phtml
>
>I think their ruling is absolutely incorrect.
S: To try and sum up what Rodney has written
(which were right in line with my original thoughts)
and then comment on those points:
(as a reminder, I am not on The Rules Committe and my opinions
are just that, opinions and interpretations as *I* see it):
1) Rodney feels the "last seen" part of the rule is in direct
conflict with determination that a disc declared lost and then
found should be played from where it was belatedly found
(1 stroke penalty).
Like I said b4, I originally agreed that was the wrong
"interpretation" of the way the rules are currently written
BUT that doesn't matter. The Rules Committee has made a
determination on how to play the scenerio and that's all that
really matters. We now have one way to play it and that was
(the main part of) my goal to begin with.
Also, it makes sense to play it where it lies (as long as the
player has not thrown from the approximate lie location) since,
well, since that is where he or she threw it! One stroke needs
to be assessed because of the fact the disc was declared lost.
The approximate lie of where it was last seen makes sense to
me if the disc was not found at all as opposed to where the
group thinks it ended up because there is just too much leeway
to determine that lie of where the group thinks it would
have wound up. Waaay too much based on the hole layout.
And again, to me, as long as there is one way to play it, it's
fair to all (playing under the PDGA rules).
2) Rodney also feels that this interpretation
'opens up a can of worms'. Although it is not written
in the rules (yet) I knoe The Rules Committee does not like
to assess double penalties (OB and above 2m is one stroke).
I couldn't prove it (and it probably should have been included
in the Q&A) but I think The Rules Committee does not want
"Double Jeopardy". A Lost Disc Belatedly Found OB or Above
2m should still only assessed 1 one stroke penalty.
"disc found right when player is throwing next throw" - as long
as the thrower didn't actually throw yet...
"disc found in much much worse place than where "last seen""
- the player is SOL there! It could be under the pin though too.
Keep the chances of all this happening in mind too. I
know I started this but keep in mind the chances of a
a disc declared lost found before the thrower's subsequent throw
(actually not written but we'll assume that), and that disc being
OB or above 2m is just not one of those scenrios that will happen
all that much. I still think determining how to play a 'belatedly
found lost disc' is important but I don't think getting into
a lengthy thread on the pros and cons of the decision is.
- Scott
wcr...@concentric.net
Rodney wrote in message <7pepi9$k09$1...@ins20.netins.net>...
>
>To me, their ruling goes against the current wording of
>the rule. In fact, I don't think the current rule is
>hardly even open to interpretation. It's pretty clear
>that "last seen" means before the search begins, whether
>the disc is found later or not.
I don't see that it's pretty clear. Intentions are hard to gauge, as rules
are hard to write.
Of course, I can't even navigate a web page, so what do I know/ ;)
bill
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Rodney
>The best way to handle the lost disc scenario is the way ball golf does
>it--Go back and re-throw (hit) from your last lie with a stroke penalty (the
>throw you lost counts too!)--Same for everyone; not open to troublesome
>opinions; easy to remember.
I agree. I'm sure at some point we'll get to this. I wish it were
sooner instead of later, but I'm not holding my breath.
Lost disc and OB should both be stroke and distance. Institute (true)
provisional throws to speed play. "Last seen" sucks. Circle-3's
suck.
rodney
Shannon Winn
Due to the inexplicable hostility many disc golfers hold for traditional
golf philosophy, I'm not holding my breath either. But I am happy we agree,
and pleased whenever this newsgroup discusses what the rules ought to be,
instead of arguing about what they ARE.
Another 'lost disc' point; We should not be obliged to help search for an
opponent's lost disc. It should be an unforced act of good will- for the
same reason you don't force a doctor to perform surgery.
wi...@enter.net
Bill Burns
Thanks for the reply. I found it very interesting.
You can see we have a real can of worms here. It is easy to throw out
options on how to improve the rule. Here are some. Let's see some
comments from the peanut gallery.
First of all, let's make the assumption that it is not obvious that the
"lost" disc is OB. Stroke and distance belong in another discussion.
Here is scenario: Player throws into deep wood. A mark for "last seen"
is established by the group when the player is determined by the group
to be "out" and the three minute time starts then. No one is permitted
to look for disc before then (courtesy violation or circumvention of
rules). Player then has three minutes to look for disc. No one else
is required to look but they are permitted to do so. If disc is not
found, penalty stroke is taken and disc is thrown from spot and play
on. If disc is found after three minutes, NO EFFECT.
Billy Bob cannot, this way, see the disc in a really bad place and wait
until 1 sec after 3 min to say, "Hay, ah faound it waay ovur heeer!".
I can understand the decision of the committee to play the disc where
it is found, but if you do that, TAKE AWAY THE PENALTY! Even if the
disc is found in a better spot than the mark. You CAN'T have it both
ways!!!
Another option is for the player to state immediately after the mark,
whether the player will take the mark or the actual place where the
disc is found, if the disc is found after 3 min. I don't like this
option, but I am putting it out there.
Another bad option is to award 2 penalty strokes for a lost disc, but
only 1 if it is found after 3 min but before shot is thrown from the
disc.
Most of the time the disc will be in a worse spot than the mark. It
just seem CRYSTAL CLEAR to me that when a disc is declared lost, it is
LOST and nothing that happens after that moment should matter!!!
Here in Minnesota
type of lost discs:
1. Where you yank it in the woods or some other bad throw. The disc is hard
to find because you threw it so bad it's not where a disc is expected to be.
2. Where you are playing with people who are bad spotters. You did a great
shot on a hard course but your opponents are not watching {as the PDGA rules
require].
In the first case a penalty stroke make sense, in the second it doesn't. [I
know there are those who will argue that the second case never happens, that
you it's your responsibility to know where your disc is... they need to
throw farther on harder courses]
Ken
Scott Wolfe
Bill, I am not so sure there is such a big can of worms opened up
with The Rules Committee determination. There are some areas that
need to be clarified like no double penalties and *when* the lost but
found disc lie can be used up until (as in until that thrower's subsequent
throw), but I don't see any other issues.
Billy Bob (below) not reporting a disc found until after the disc
was declared lost is not an issue that I think needs to be accounted
for (except s/he can be DQ'd) but that kind of thing doesn't happen
(I mean anybody can see the disc and make believe they never did
no matter what way the rule is written but we cannot concern ourselves
with that type of scenerio).
Now, on your first idea for a different way to handle the lost disc scenerio:
It sounds like your first idea below is the way you and I thought the original
rule is/was written except not everyone in group is req'd to search and that
the 'last seen' location is decided prior to searching for the lost disc.
Marking the 'last seen' location (which is more times than not further
away from the hole), and then advancing down the fairway only to find
the disc would now make the thrower go back up the fairway, retrieve the
marker and go back down the farway again. I am assuming most of the time
the disc thrown deep into wood is going to be found so marking the 'last seen'
lie would be a waste of time not to mention the time and energy wasted to
go back and retrieve that mark when it is not needed.
I do not think that the wording in the rules are in sync with
The Rules Committee determination but I think most of us feel that
way. But, again, there is one way defined to play a lost but belatedly
found disc (using the Q&A page). Eventhough that determination can be
detailed to include the double jeopardy thing and *when* the found disc
lie can be used up until, using the found disc's lie up until a subsequent
throw with a max of one stroke penalty makes sense to me.
- Scott
In article <7pha9l$2og$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Bill says...