Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

World Games

2 views
Skip to first unread message

default

unread,
Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
So Ultimate will be participating in the 2001 World Games. After
reading the USA Today article, I questioned whether or not Callahan
Rules will be used. I know it's light-years away for Ultimate, but the
article implied that the 9th non-Callahan rules will be used. I think
that would be a big mistake in perhaps our largest showcase yet. Does
anybody know if Callahan rules are being considered for this forum?
Sal


Jesiewert

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
> I think
>that would be a big mistake in perhaps our largest showcase yet.

I would beg to differ on this. The Callahan Rules have been developed for
college level play in the US, and at this point I would not expect to impose
the changes on the world ultimate community. Most people out there playing disc
do not need an official of any sort to tell them how to have fun and behave at
the same time.

js

RichFranck

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
<<The Callahan Rules have been developed for college level play in the US>>

I beg to differ ... The Callahan Rules are being developed for ALL things
Ultimate. The college division is just the guinae pig.

-Rich Franck

RichFranck

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
<<Most people out there playing disc do not need an official of any sort to
tell them how to have fun and behave at the same time.>>

If Ultimate is to become a spectator sport (and that is still a big if), then
something has to be done to make it FUN to watch.

The rules of other sports (football, basketball, etc) have been modified to
make the game more interesting to watch. The Callahan Rules are an attempt to
do the same for Ultimate. They DEFINITELY get the games started on time and
stop all the unnecessary downtime.

Phil Rowe

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
Jesiewert wrote:
>Most people out there playing disc
> do not need an official of any sort to tell them how to have fun and behave at
> the same time.
-------------------------
so...the athletes village won't be destroyed....

what about on the field!?!?!?

I vote to have Mike Gerics be the head observer for the Finals of the
World Games.
Where will the World games be held???

RichFranck

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
<<Where will the World games be held???>>

Most honorable Mr. Gerics, the World Games will be held in Japan :::bow:::

Kenneth44

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
>I vote to have Mike Gerics be the head observer for the Finals of the
>World Games.

you got the job.

>Where will the World games be held???

kosovo.

dix

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to

Kenneth44 wrote in message <19990407130348...@ng-fb1.aol.com>...

should be plenty of field space

Phil Rowe

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
Kenneth44 wrote:

> >Where will the World games be held???
>
> kosovo.

---------------------
Kosova Japan!?!
hell yes!

Jesiewert

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
>If Ultimate is to become a spectator sport (and that is still a big if), then
>something has to be done to make it FUN to watch.

I don't know where you have been spectating, but I can not think of a game I
have been to that has NOT been fun to watch. Sure beats the heck out of
35secondsbetween4secondplaysNFL and superslow baseball.
Pace of play will never work against ultimate.



>The rules of other sports (football, basketball, etc) have been modified to
>make the game more interesting to watch.

Who wants to be like football? (See above)

Kenneth44

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
>I don't know where you have been spectating, but I can not think of a game I
>have been to that has NOT been fun to watch.

tough concept here, but we're not talking about making it fun for YOU to watch.
we're talking about it being fun for non-players to watch.

>Sure beats the heck out of
>35secondsbetween4secondplaysNFL and superslow baseball.

because the math works better lets say the shortest football play is 5 seconds.
so the worst ratio of downtime to uptime is 7 to 1.

having just been at easterns where i was observing (and had a stopwatch the
whole time) i can tell you that many goals are scored on pull plays in less
than 15 seconds. without callahan rules i have seen 3-4 minutes between goals.
at 3 minutes it's a 12 to 1 ratio. then add 5 minute timeouts (NFL is 2.5), 10
minute arguments (NFL doesn't supply arguments) and you begin to get the
picture.

>Pace of play will never work against ultimate.

not when we're playing, but the next time you get the chance time actual play
time as compared to running time. you just might be surprised by what you find.

Jesiewert

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
>it's a 12 to 1 ratio. then add 5 minute timeouts (NFL is 2.5), 10
>minute arguments (NFL doesn't supply arguments) and you begin to get the
>picture.

Now add in the 20 minute upwinder against the zone and recalculate. And I don't
recall seeing in the 9th edition where there is a ten minute allowance for
arguements. If players are playing this way, then that is an effective
violation of the rules. Hell, I am all for cutting down BS time (arguements,
between plays etc.), but I think you let people off the hook on spirit when you
put someone there to police it. I don't hang out with cops off the field, and I
don't want to on the field either.

>we're talking about it being fun for non-players to watch.
>

Here really is an isuue. Very few people can say that they have never played
footbal, and ultimate is in exactly the opposite position. Perhaps what we
should be kibitzing about is how to get ultimate into every school and
playground and littleleague in the country so that we have the same "educated"
(read: familiar) spectators as mainstream sports. Take snowboarding as an
example. Now that board sales are up, and a third of ticket sales go to
baorders, you can't have a big time broadcast of a winter sports event without
boarding. Ask any one about getting media coverage ten years ago and they will
paint a different picture.


>not when we're playing, but the next time you get the chance time actual play
>time as compared to running time. you just might be surprised by what you
>find.

Then I say all tourneys should be in a make-it-take-it format, savage sevens,
with ten seconds for a mirror half. You will never convice me that there is
more action in baseball than there is in ultimate, call me crazy. Maybe 10
million people watch baseball, but it is not for the speed &thrills & action,
it is because it is a game they know and love. Ultimate is this for me, but not
for ten million others, at this time.

js

RichFranck

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
JS wrote:
<<And I don't
recall seeing in the 9th edition where there is a ten minute allowance for
arguements. If players are playing this way, then that is an effective
violation of the rules. Hell, I am all for cutting down BS time (arguements,
between plays etc.), but I think you let people off the hook on spirit when you
put someone there to police it. I don't hang out with cops off the field, and I
don't want to on the field either.>>

JS, I agree with you on both these points:

1) there is no provision for a 10 minute agruement in the 9th edition ... yet
it still happens.

2) I don't want to see observers (referees, police, whatever you want to call
them) take away Spirit of the Game.

JS, all I can say is ... try it (Callahan Rules). You'll be surprised at how
fast the game goes, yet 99% of the time you'll hardly even notice that there is
anything different about the game (i.e. you won't notice the observer).

-Rich Franck

dtomlin

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to

Jesiewert wrote in message <19990407164855...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...

>Take snowboarding as an
>example. Now that board sales are up, and a third of ticket sales go to
>baorders, you can't have a big time broadcast of a winter sports event
without
>boarding

thank god for canadian borders.

Tiina Booth (ARHS)

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to

I think this is a more interesting question. At Worlds last August, I heard
that only 60 total ultimate competitors were going to be invited. This, of
course, may have changed, but, if it is true, who gets to go? Six teams
from six different countries of 10 players each? Coed? Women? Open?

Damn. I'm sure glad I won't have to make that kind of decision.

Who will?

Tiina "feeling like a troublemaker" Booth
--

Rob Sanders

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to

On 7 Apr 1999, Jesiewert wrote:

> > I think
> >that would be a big mistake in perhaps our largest showcase yet.
>

> I would beg to differ on this. The Callahan Rules have been developed for
> college level play in the US, and at this point I would not expect to impose

> the changes on the world ultimate community. Most people out there playing disc


> do not need an official of any sort to tell them how to have fun and behave at
> the same time.
>

> js


AMEN. I think the college crow could even behave themselves if they
really tried!

Rob Sanders
Oregon Ultimate


John C Harris

unread,
Apr 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/8/99
to
World Games, Akita, Japan, Aug 16-26, 2001

"Disc Sports" will have 3 divisions:
Disc golf, male - 6
Disc golf, female - 6
Ultimate, coed - 6 teams of 10

The six countries representing Ultimate will be chosen using the results of
WUGC, Heilbronne, Germany, August 5-12, 2000.


John Shelton

unread,
Apr 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/8/99
to

actually, i don't think the Callahan Rules were "developed for college
level play in the US" only.

they were first implemented at the college level because a college coach
helped develop them, and it seems that college players might be more open
to experimenting with them (versus stubborn club players).

the worst behavior by ultimate players isn't at the college level.
certain club players with more knowledge of the rules and how to
manipulate and take advantage of some of their shortcomings are the most
guilty parties.

bring on the callahan rules at all levels. even better, bring on referees.

-shelty

>
> On 7 Apr 1999, Jesiewert wrote:

> > >that would be a big mistake in perhaps our largest showcase yet.
> >
> > I would beg to differ on this. The Callahan Rules have been developed for
> > college level play in the US, and at this point I would not expect to impose
> > the changes on the world ultimate community. Most people out there playing disc
> > do not need an official of any sort to tell them how to have fun and behave at
> > the same time.
>

elliot

unread,
Apr 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/8/99
to

How will these ultimate teams determine which 10 players get to play?
Alphabetical? Obviously, you gotta play golf. Whey does coed play
represent the ultimate? Send the guts teams instead! That'll wake the
viewers up!

Jesiewert

unread,
Apr 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/8/99
to
Can we just send Elliot for all divisions/disciplines?
js

Phil Rowe

unread,
Apr 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/8/99
to
John Shelton wrote:

not sure if you had the chance to read what John had to write.
here it is again.
-----------------

Craig Murray

unread,
Apr 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/8/99
to
I think it's bogus that we wouldn't send ALL of our best teams to be
showcased.
We're not going to send the best men's teams and best women's teams???
I think that we'd be missing an opportunity to show off our biggest studs
and studettes.
Or perhaps DoG and Verge (or whoever the reigning Open and Women's champs
would be at the 2000 WUGC competition) will feel compelled to enter
themselves as a coed team instead to try and finish in the top 6....
Seems like poor thinking on handling the biggest showcase that Ultimate has
ever had....


John C Harris wrote in message <7eh9tv$lp4$1...@news.interlog.com>...

Thomas Taylor

unread,
Apr 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/8/99
to
On Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:38:12 -0600, default <def...@fortlewis.edu> wrote:

>So Ultimate will be participating in the 2001 World Games. After
>reading the USA Today article, I questioned whether or not Callahan
>Rules will be used. I know it's light-years away for Ultimate, but the
>article implied that the 9th non-Callahan rules will be used. I think
>that would be a big mistake in perhaps our largest showcase yet. Does
>anybody know if Callahan rules are being considered for this forum?

This tournament will not be under UPA 9th Edition or Callahan rules. It
will be under the rules of the sponsoring organization, the World Flying
Disk Federation. It is they who are members of the Int'l World Games
Association and who secured disc sports' spot as a demo game in '97 and as
a medal game in 2001. I forget what the differences are between WFDF and
9th ed rules are; they are slight, but my point is that this is not a UPA
issue (other than that the UPA is one member among 55 of the WFDF).

There's not currently any info on the WFDF site, but the interview with
WFDF Ultimate Ctte Chair Charlie Mead on Ultilinks
(www.ultilinks.com/interviews) suggests that a) the teams will be coed, the
top six national coed teams from the 2000 WUC, and b) WFDF rules will
incorporate time-saving rules for pulls and disputed calls, but no
observers, in time for WUCC 1999.

--
Thomas Taylor
Philadelphia, PA
thomas...@bigfoot.com
http://www.bigfoot.com/~thomas_taylor

Jeff Stampes

unread,
Apr 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/8/99
to
Craig Murray wrote:

> I think it's bogus that we wouldn't send ALL of our best teams to be
> showcased.

Then complain to the World games....(correct me if I'm wrong) I think they were

the ones who told WFDF there would be 6 teams, and left it up to WFDF to
determine the who/what.

> We're not going to send the best men's teams and best women's teams???

One division (as the World Games has decided). With one division, you get to
send one type of team. Send men, you exclude women....send women, you exclude
men. Send coed, and you not only get to include men and women in this historic

event, but get to show what a great coed sport Ultimate is.

> I think that we'd be missing an opportunity to show off our biggest studs
> and studettes.

Nah....coed disc has plenty of studs and studettes, I have no doubt the teams
will ROCK.

> Or perhaps DoG and Verge (or whoever the reigning Open and Women's champs
> would be at the 2000 WUGC competition) will feel compelled to enter
> themselves as a coed team instead to try and finish in the top 6....
> Seems like poor thinking on handling the biggest showcase that Ultimate has
> ever had....

So let's hear your idea: You are told by the World Games that you get one
division to send 6 teams to. What do you do?

Cheers,

Jeff


Jesiewert

unread,
Apr 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/9/99
to
>So let's hear your idea: You are told by the World Games that you get one
>division to send 6 teams to. What do you do?
>

Bitch & Moan

Craig Murray

unread,
Apr 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/9/99
to
Perhaps I should have said, "it's a BUMMER that we CAN'T send all
divisions". Obviously, if the World Games said we could only have one
division, then we can't send all divisions.

And yes, I'm sure the coed division will rock and do the sport proud, but
that wasn't really my point. My point is that there are even bigger studs
and studdettes in the Open and Women's division at this point in time.
(Uh-oh, here come the rebuttals...) The Open and Women's teams also have
alot more history to bring to the table, and would provide the commentators
(what commentators?) a better framework within which to discuss the game and
its history. A DoG/Sweden finals in an Olympic-type venue? That would be
cool. (Of course, the word on the street is that DoG is breaking up, and
there's no guarantee that they'd win Nationals this year, blah blah blah).
And seeing Ring of Fire would be better!

What would I do if I were told by the World Games that I could only have one
division to send 6 teams to? Well, first, I'd convince them of the error in
their thinking and get them to carve out more field space, time slots, or
whatever the holdup was. If that didn't work, I'd go with seniority of
divisions and that would be Open - at least in the USA.

But hey, that's only one person's myopic and nationalistic (and sexist, I'm
sure someone will point out) view of things.

Next question: How was this decision reached?

And to close: Don't get me wrong. I'm pumped that "Disc Sports" is going to
be a part of the World Games. Now I just gotta figure out how to set my VCR
to tape ESPN2 at 4am to catch the competition.

Later...


Jeff Stampes wrote in message <370D313B...@xilinx.com>...

>So let's hear your idea: You are told by the World Games that you get one
>division to send 6 teams to. What do you do?
>

>Cheers,
>
>Jeff
>
>
>

Craig Murray

unread,
Apr 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/9/99
to
Whine and Cheese

Jesiewert wrote in message <19990409092524...@ng-fa1.aol.com>...


>>So let's hear your idea: You are told by the World Games that you get one
>>division to send 6 teams to. What do you do?
>>
>

>Bitch & Moan

pdg...@my-dejanews.com

unread,
Apr 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/9/99
to
With the recent USA Today article mentioning the World Games and the
subsequent discussion on this newsgroup, it seemed that it would be helpful
to provide some background and an update on the status of disc sports in the
2001 World Games in Akita, Japan.

The opportunity to present disc sports as a medal sport in the World Games is
the culmination of a relatively long process that began with the
establishment of the World Flying Disc Federation in 1985 and its subsequent
acceptance into the General Association of International Sports and the
International World Games Association. The drive for participation of disc
sports in the World Games has been tirelessly spearheaded by WFDF Board
member, Prof. Fumio Morooka of Japan. Demonstration activities were provided
at the last World Games in Finland along with a continuing political effort
to secure a position in the Akita Games. Over the last year, the effort has
intensified a great deal as the IWGA narrowed down the number of new
candidates for medal participation in the Akita Games. Being a member
association of IWGA does not by any means guarantee participation in the
World Games. The process of detailing the potential participation of disc
sports in the Games with IWGA was very demanding for several reasons. For
one, of course, many of the decision makers have very little firsthand
knowledge of disc sports. In particular, the breadth of our sports was a
great surprise to most IWGA staff. The other major challenge was the very
specific and limiting conditions of participation that are set for all World
Games sports. Over the years, many of us on the WFDF Board have done a great
deal of of event formatting, but this was by far the most challenging set of
circumstances that we had ever encountered. To solve this challenge, we
identified several basic goals to drive this process and decision.

We needed to design a participation format that... 1. Follows the mandates of
the IWGA. 2. Meets the specific needs of the IWGA organizing committee for
the Akita games. 3. We know that we can execute with high quality. 4. Will
favorably display the breadth and vigor of disc sports. 5 Will be attractive
to players who are candidates to participate. 6. Upon consideration, will be
accepted and supported by the various disc event organizations.

With so many countervailing restrictions and considerations involved we
realized that what was eventually settled on would certainly fall short of
each sport’s definition of an ideal "world championship" competition. It is
worth noting however, that the same is true for many other well-established
sports. That is, the World Championship of any particular event is certainly
a better competitive format than their particular Olympic championship. This
is not so obvious to our sport because we’re so new to this all. The final
consideration of course is that we are obligated to strike a grand compromise
for this first world-level opportunity. Also, we believe that we have an
obligation to represent our games and players as broadly as is practical in
this first, and very important opportunity.

In our early submissions to the committee, we offered three options that
included a wide range of the disc sports and disciplines and larger numbers
of participants than we really expected to be available. The feedback from
that submission got us an even more detailed set of guidelines. They
encouraged a concentration on the two most popular games, ultimate and golf.
We were given a total of ninety participants with six nations to be
represented in each sport. Given that scenario, the Board put the question
out to the ultimate and golf committees of WFDF for detailed consideration.
At the current time, the Board is about to finalize the ultimate competition
and will soon consider the golf event. The final decision and details of
participation will be posted on wfdf.org as they are approved, but the
general outline will probably be as reported previously on rec.sport.disc by
John Harris of Canada:

Sequence-Id:5698

From: har...@interlog.com (John C Harris)

Subject: Re: World Games

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 04:06:27 GMT

World Games, Akita, Japan, Aug 16-26, 2001

"Disc Sports" will have 3 divisions:

Disc golf, male - 6

Disc golf, female - 6

Ultimate, coed - 6 teams of 10

The six countries representing Ultimate will be chosen using the results of

WUGC, Heilbronne, Germany, August 5-12, 2000.


Unofficially at this point, for ultimate it appears that the selection of the
nations to send teams will be determined by the overall finish of each nation
in Germany 2000. A nation's finish in three of the five divisions will be
considered. Then, with that invitation in hand, each nation will select the
ten players to make up its coed team for Akita. The Board and the Ultimate
Committee realized that the choice of coed play would be controversial.
However, given the limitation of one division only, the coed option presented
itself as the only feasible option. Given the selection process, we are
confident that the elite teams of men and women who will be chosen for the
event will provide an extremely high level of ultimate play.

In addition to the format and selection process, there are obviously many more
details to be worked out. For instance, we are now at a level of sport where
there is routine drug testing. Therefore, players who accept the invitation to
play will be under the same constraints as those faced by Olympic athletes.

The procedure for disc golf will shortly be reviewed by the Board, but again
unofficially, it appears that there will be six nations selected. The
selection will be based on a general measure of the strength of each
country's disc golf program including the success of its players in
international competition. Each country which is chosen will then select one
male and one female player as their representatives in the World Games.

There actually will be only five countries chosen in each event, because as
the host nation, Japan, will automatically be awarded one of the invitations
as is the convention for all World Games sports.

In summary, perhaps the most important aspect of this great opportunity for
disc sports is the fact that it is only a beginning. We realize that there
are freestylers, distance throwers, ddc or guts players and others who will
be disappointed that their disc sport is not specifically represented in
Akita. However, if we are able to carry off this initial participation
effectively, we are certain that this will lead to even more international
opportunities for all disc sports. We look forward to working with all of the
national associations and their players to make this aspiration a reality.

Bill Wright
President, World Flying Disc

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Dan Roddick

unread,
Apr 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/9/99
to
In posting the WFDF statement on World Games, I partially cut the signature
lines. The piece comes from Bill Wright, President of the World Flying Disc
Federation and myself, Dan Roddick, Secretary of the WFDF Board. When
further World Games announcements are made by the Board, they will be posted
on the WFDF web site wfdf.org and I post a mention here on rec.sport.disc.

Stork

TedErnst

unread,
Apr 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/10/99
to
>Can we just send Elliot for all divisions/disciplines?
>js

I second the motion.

default

unread,
Apr 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/11/99
to Duncan Keenan

Duncan Keenan wrote:

> It has been decided to have 6 coed teams of 10 players at world games.

The irony is in the USA Today article about Ultimate at the World Games
there is a picture of DoG, the top open team. But they won't be Japan,
they're not co-ed.

Also, I mentioned this will be the biggest showcase for Ultimate ever.
But even more significant, this will be the greatest moment ever for
co-ed ultimate.

If it were up to me, I would have left out disc golf.
-Sal


Thomas Taylor

unread,
Apr 11, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/11/99
to
On Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:25:21 -0600, default <def...@fortlewis.edu> wrote:

>Duncan Keenan wrote:
>
>> It has been decided to have 6 coed teams of 10 players at world games.
>
>The irony is in the USA Today article about Ultimate at the World Games
>there is a picture of DoG, the top open team. But they won't be Japan,
>they're not co-ed.

But some of their players might. The UPA will probably decide to select a
national team for the World Games, rather than sending the reigning coed
national champion club. This is what they did for the 1998 World
Championships in Blaine, and for the World Games, they might see fit to
include players active in the Open and Women divisions. Especially since
the Open and Women divisions will play a role in getting the US one of the
five available bids (assuming that the US does in fact receive one of those
bids). Most countries already select national teams for the World
Championships rather than sending the currently reigning club, as the UPA
does.

Dennis Karlinsky

unread,
Apr 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/12/99
to
lots of fun stuff snipped...

>The Board and the Ultimate
> Committee realized that the choice of coed play would be controversial.
> However, given the limitation of one division only, the coed option presented
> itself as the only feasible option. Given the selection process, we are
> confident that the elite teams of men and women who will be chosen for the
> event will provide an extremely high level of ultimate play.
>

> Bill Wright
> President, World Flying Disc


The Akita event will probably result in the biggest world-wide exposure
for Ultimate, which means we need to showcase the best of what we got.
There should be 6 Open division teams from around the world (not
intended to start a debate of open vs. women's play, but it seems widely
accepted that the National Champion from the Open division is the best
team in the country counting women's, masters, juniors, etc...).

Co-ed play is taking the country by storm but if we ever hope for a shot
at the Olympics (I truly do), even if it is 20+ years down the road, we
need to take the biggest steps forward that we can. I don't seem to
remember co-ed rugby or co-ed hockey or co-ed volleyball being at the
forefront of bringing these sports to the next level (ie. Goodwill
games, Olympics, etc...).

Either way the sport will benefit, but I would hope the WFDF committee
takes another look at the way we will represent ultimate to the rest of
the world.

Dennis

David Blau

unread,
Apr 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/13/99
to

Dennis Karlinsky wrote:

> Either way the sport will benefit, but I would hope the WFDF committee
> takes another look at the way we will represent ultimate to the rest of
> the world.
>

> I agree that the national open champs are the best team around.However, there is
> another way of looking at this situation.

If we field a team of the best male and female players, the team will be
exciting to watch. Ultimate, unlike basketball, football, or hockey is well suited
for co-ed play. Other than zone D, help out defense is minimal, and same sex match
ups dominate play. Playing co-ed also changes the dynamics of team cohesiveness
(now i sound like walt frazier). Men and Women working together toward a common
goal.That is also an interesting show from a fan perspective. A comparison would be
to the eco-challenge race, where teams of 4 (must be at least one woman) compete on
several levels, speed is the most important, but the cohesiveness of the team
becomes more important as the race goes on. I believe that co-ed ultimate may
be the brightest future for our sport, and one that will manage to combine growth
with a tipping of our collective hats to the quirky nature of our roots. If and
when the co-ed division moves to the spring, and draws the top men and women, it
will be a great show. Perhaps the World Games will be a preview of things to come.
Athletic competition with the added twist of human interest, gender games and even
the occasional sexual tension. We will be beating off the sponsers with
sticks!

>

David Blau


SNSTEURY

unread,
Apr 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/13/99
to
>We will be beating off the sponsers with
>sticks!

Hasn't that always been true about disc sports?
;-)
Steve

Ernie

unread,
Apr 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/14/99
to
Am I mistaken or has the Olympic committee decided there are enough sports in the
Olympics and is adding no more?

Ernie

Dennis Karlinsky wrote:

snipped...

Thomas Taylor

unread,
Apr 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/14/99
to
On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:52:50 -0700, Dennis Karlinsky <t...@cats.ucsc.edu>
wrote:

>The Akita event will probably result in the biggest world-wide exposure
>for Ultimate, which means we need to showcase the best of what we got.

I am totally psyched that Ultimate and Disc Golf will be played at the
Akita World Games, and am impressed with the key WFDF board members who
have made this happen. Still, on what are you basing the notion that Akita
will result in all this world-wide exposure for Ultimate? I mean, it's not
like Bob Costas and John Tesh are going to be on the scene, doing 5 minute
"Up Close and Personal" features on the players (not that John Tesh's
absence is a bad thing). The IWGA's own site laments the lack of media
exposure granted to the first two World Games events, and looking around
the relevant Web sites, I don't see any mention of big TV contracts.

Let us take as an example, Korfball, a World Games event since the second
World Games, a sport which has been a demonstration sport at two Olympic
Games, and the other coed team sport that will be played in Akita. There
are probably some Belgian and Dutch readers of this newsgroup who are
familiar with Korfball, but other than that, most folks are like me and had
never heard of the sport either until I mentioned it here or they looked
into the World Games because disc sports were going to be there. The same
is probably true of Netball and Fistball. Who here has ever watched
competitive Casting on TV or in person, much less participated. Casting was
a founding member of the World Games. The World Games is a great event, and
it's wonderful news and a good opportunity for disc sports to be there, but
this is not the mother lode in terms of publicity.

>There should be 6 Open division teams from around the world (not
>intended to start a debate of open vs. women's play, but it seems widely
>accepted that the National Champion from the Open division is the best
>team in the country counting women's, masters, juniors, etc...).

I think that the WFDF was thinking in terms of the players. There will only
be 60 representatives of Ultimate at the World Games, and I think that to
exclude women from the event would be criminal. I think that the intention
is that the countries will select the best players from all three divisions
for their national teams, not limiting themselves to those competing
strictly in coed, and I think that the play will be top-notch.

>Co-ed play is taking the country by storm but if we ever hope for a shot
>at the Olympics (I truly do), even if it is 20+ years down the road, we
>need to take the biggest steps forward that we can.

People need to get over their dreams of Olympic glory. It's just not going
to happen. Baseball and badminton moved from the World Games to the
Olympics, but their history of international competition and their broad
acceptance in many countries is inconceivably further ahead of Ultimate.
Bowling, with regularly televised events, professional players, relatively
deep-pocketed sponsors and a player base larger than Ultimate's by several
orders of magnitude has spent a lot of money over many years trying to get
in, without success. Ultimate is way more than 20 years away from even
being in a financial position to make a serious effort, much less a
successful one. I think that we should focus on growing Ultimate for
Ultimate's sake, not the Olympics' sake.

> I don't seem to
>remember co-ed rugby or co-ed hockey or co-ed volleyball being at the
>forefront of bringing these sports to the next level (ie. Goodwill
>games, Olympics, etc...).

Contact sports and sports where height is a dominant factor are ill-suited
for coed play. Ultimate makes a good coed sport; while height is a major
factor, the one-to-one matching and large space makes it less likely that
the tallest male player will have repeated opportunities to dominate a
smaller female player. As I already pointed out, Ultimate will not be the
only coed sport there. 2 of out eight(?) team sports at Akita will be coed.

James Parinella

unread,
Apr 19, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/19/99
to
In article <19990407130348...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
kenn...@aol.com (Kenneth44) writes:
>>I vote to have Mike Gerics be the head observer for the Finals of the
>>World Games.
>
>you got the job.
>
>>Where will the World games be held???
>
>kosovo.

I guess that means there won't be any spectators.

0 new messages