No Love For the Ladies
jcpa...@gmail.com
women's ultimate around RSD and some of my former teammates: we don't
throw hammers, we run like we're under water, we can't catch or jump
high.
Although these things irritate me a little bit, I actually found the
promo for the cultimate series (of stanford and vegas clips) equally
so....
After watching it, and then looking more closely I realized that out
of all 2 minutes and 52 seconds of it, 17 second were contributed to
women. Three clips, all from the finals of vegas and nothing from
stanford. There's three times that contributed to Arizona Sunburn
alone... and they didn't make semis in Stanford either. There's even
a clip of them versus Black Tide at Stanford which was only in bracket
play on Saturday.
There's even around 9 seconds of a band during the exhibition game...
more than half of the women's portion.
I don't want to go and bash Rob for putting all those videos up... I
love watching them, but come on where's the love for the ladies?
hapyschizo
DoctaJones
> 3 ft of water...should explain it all
That is a dick response.
This is a difficult question to respond to, especially for RSD
contributors, the majority of whom are male. The short answer is that,
from a generally unattached viewer's perspective, women's ultimate is
not as exciting to watch as open play. I have no way of knowing how
much Rob is making from his ultimate filming endeavors, but it seems
unreasonable to think that it is much more than enough to recoup his
costs and feed himself and his newly expanded family. From a purely
economic perspective, it seems most logical to show more men's footage
than women's, especially in a trailer designed to attract new
subscribers. At this point I don't think we can ask any more from Rob,
especially given the fact that his last two nationals offerings have
included equal amounts of footage for the women's, open, mixed, and
master's divisions.
Notice that my description of women's ultimate as less exciting than
open is qualified with "from a generally unattached viewer's
perspective". I am a recent UCLA graduate, and having spent a good
portion last February's Vegas tournament watching UCLA's women's team,
I found it exceptionally exciting - mostly because I knew nearly all
the players and wanted badly for them to do well. However, given the
choice between a high-level open game and a high-level women's game
between teams which I was unfamiliar with, I would choose the open
game every time. I think this is true for most male ultimate players,
and is a truth that Rob (or anyone hoping to film ultimate for profit)
must deal with when deciding what games to shoot and what to include
in promotional materials.
ulticritic
hey now....thats not all toghther true. I was giving you guys(sorry
girls) total props for being waaaay more spirited than the men. And
hey, that is the central aspect of ultimate, right? and you girls
dont even boast or flourish that FACT when these schovanistic asshole
men that play ulti slam you for not being as skilled or athletic. Not
only that but the whole sport is structured with a rule set that is
basically custom made for the female gender (and by the female gender
i might add).
Casey
> On Mar 21, 10:45 pm, hapyschizo <hapysch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > 3 ft of water...should explain it all
>
> That is a dick response.
>
> This is a difficult question to respond to, especially for RSD
> contributors, the majority of whom are male.
I'm not sure that I agree with you here ... what makes this question
intrinsically difficult to answer for a man? Why would you posit that
a woman would have an easier time finding an answer? Perhaps your
poor sentence structure has muddied your point here?
> The short answer is that,
> from a generally unattached viewer's perspective, women's ultimate is
> not as exciting to watch as open play.
That is quite a good response, save for that modifier you placed on
the front end. Open is not more exciting for the viewer simply
because they have no team to root for. You do well to be diplomatic,
but you have bent yourself over so far backwards that you have lost
sight of your point. A more accurate label might be "for the viewer
looking for a more exciting game" or "for those looking to watch teams
play at levels that they cannot (and players making plays that they
cannot.)"
> I have no way of knowing how
> much Rob is making from his ultimate filming endeavors, but it seems
> unreasonable to think that it is much more than enough to recoup his
> costs and feed himself and his newly expanded family.
I like it -- scarcity -- you're setting up a good point!
> From a purely
> economic perspective, it seems most logical to show more men's footage
> than women's, especially in a trailer designed to attract new
> subscribers.
Good! Economics, the free market! But flesh this out my friend,
state the hard fact. Why is it more logical to show more men's
footage to attract new subscribers?
> At this point I don't think we can ask any more from Rob,
> especially given the fact that his last two nationals offerings have
> included equal amounts of footage for the women's, open, mixed, and
> master's divisions.
Anyone can ask anything of Rob; but back to your previous point: what
is prudent for a content producer in sports? What has the market
proven time and time again?
> Notice that my description of women's ultimate as less exciting than
> open is qualified with "from a generally unattached viewer's
> perspective".
I did.
> I am a recent UCLA graduate, and having spent a good
> portion last February's Vegas tournament watching UCLA's women's team,
> I found it exceptionally exciting - mostly because I knew nearly all
> the players and wanted badly for them to do well.
Good anecdote, I go support teams because I know players, but you
aren't doing much of a favor to the demographic you are trying hard
not to displease.
> However, given the
> choice between a high-level open game and a high-level women's game
> between teams which I was unfamiliar with, I would choose the open
> game every time.
Exactly why Rob should be marketing that content.
> I think this is true for most male ultimate players,
See previous sentence, and you could even drop the sex modifier and be
accurate, though probably not as accurate..
> and is a truth that Rob (or anyone hoping to film ultimate for profit)
> must deal with when deciding what games to shoot and what to include
> in promotional materials.
This statement is confusing, almost as if Rob (or your audience, or
perhaps even society in general) should feel bad that people enjoy
watching men play sports more than they enjoy watching women.
The truth is that this is not about sex. It's about entertainment.
Men are more exciting to watch.
Let's imagine an incredible woman player. Let's call her R. Moth.
And let's posit that she is an incredible player, and that many say
that she could hold her own in an open environment. She makes
spectacular plays and consistently packs crowds around her field. She
is entertaining. But the problem is she is rather lonely in her
sport, not many others like her, perhaps a handful spread among the
top few teams in the country.
And back we come to free markets and content production.
The Open game is full of players like her. Every Open team at
Nationals has a dozen players like her (perhaps more, perhaps less,
but I'd bet on more). They are making exciting plays at the same rate
individually, but by sheer numbers make their games far more exciting
to watch. Content producers want to maximize their profits and
therefore seek the biggest markets. Sports consumers want to watch
exciting games. Open gets more airtime. QED.
Those are the facts, and I really do not understand why you stated
them in such an apologetic manner. They are facts. Who apologizes
for facts?
Now, a quick response to the OP. It's actually a very simple matter
to get more content of the women's game. Pay for it. Rob is in
business to make money, if providing more women's content earns him
more then I doubt he would be against it.
Casey
ulticritic
so now casey and ALL OTHERS apply this same logic and reasoning (and
line of questioning) to why more poeple would rather watch sports with
a mans rule set (football, basketball, etc.....you know, one with refs
and hot chicks dancing on the sidelines) rather than a sport with a
womans ruleset (ultimate, cricket, etc).......here in america
anyways, where our product and our would be consumers already are???
Frank Huguenard
<jcpa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:04d9565e-67c7-4b02...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
jcpa...@gmail.com
"From a purely
economic perspective, it seems most logical to show more men's
footage
than women's, especially in a trailer designed to attract new
subscribers"
I would have to disagree with this.... there is a huge untapped market
of women ultimate players who are not subscribed to ultivillage... and
I've heard and agree myself that there's no point in subscribing when
a significantly large portion of the college videos are of men. Guys
can go and watch their competition while I'm stuck looking at UCLA and
Ottawa battle it out in one game... which I've play UCLA before and
seen Ottawa at my sectionals last year when I played for Ithaca.
Imagine the kind of money Rob would be making if he included a lot of
women's ultimate... stuff boys who aren't interested in can ignore but
girls like me would pay money to watch.
Pashley
kelcie
> hey now....thats not all toghther true. I was giving you guys(sorry
> girls) total props for being waaaay more spirited than the men. And
> hey, that is the central aspect of ultimate, right? and you girls
> dont even boast or flourish that FACT when these schovanistic asshole
> men that play ulti slam you for not being as skilled or athletic. Not
> only that but the whole sport is structured with a rule set that is
> basically custom made for the female gender (and by the female gender
> i might add).
here i go, getting sucked in again...
for starters, toad, "guys" is a gender-neutral term at this point.
you can use it to refer to a group of people that is entirely composed
of females. no need for corrections or insincere apologies.
secondly, women didn't start playing ultimate to be more spirited than
men. we started playing because it was fun, or maybe because our
friends dragged us out, or maybe because we're competitive adrenaline
junkies with a compulsive need to prove we're just as tough as any guy
out there. hard to say, really. the point is, good spirit is a plus,
but it's not the reason we play ultimate. so why would we boast about
it?
as for your comment about the "chauvinist assholes" who slam us for
not being as skilled or athletic.. where do i even start? most women
playing sports have realized at some point that we are not as tall, as
strong, or as fast as the average guy on the field. we biology types
even have a special word for the concept. it's called "sexual
dimorphism." to recognize this fact, or even to talk openly about it,
does not make one an asshole. it makes one a realist. and the skill
level? maybe it is lower. might have something to do with the fact
that it's hard to find ladies with previous experience, so a lot of
women's teams are starting all of their rookies from zero, and they've
got some catching up to do. this will change. but still, i wonder
where you get off calling guys assholes for stating simple facts while
you try to rally support for your pet notions by bashing women (see
the 'real men wouldn't play this sport because it's a sissy sport for
girls unless you make my changes" argument). i get this feeling that
in your perfect world, the only way i'd set foot on the field is
dancing for a halftime show. actually, probably not even then,
because i don't really have the boobs to be a dancing girl. (note:
just in case all you chauvinist assholes out there think i was
defending you, i'm not. you're still jerks. i just think toad was
throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this one.)
now, in response to the original post:
the general tone of RSD is certainly not one that's terribly
respectful of women. maybe that's because a lot of women don't post
here? maybe it's because every time someone tries to stick up for
women, their post gets a one star rating. maybe it's because we don't
feel like a flame war on RSD to defend our honor is worthwhile. or
maybe it's because RSD is not necessarily the most sensitive of
forums. not a lot of political correctness around here, not a lot of
common courtesy either. if the tone of RSD ever becomes respectful of
ANYONE, i'll be shocked. and i agree, we don't generally get a lot of
love from photographers and people filming games... of course,
despite the fact that i'm a girl, i'd rather watch men's games too.
why? because of the big plays. if i don't know anyone and i'm
watching for sheer entertainment value, i want to watch a dude lay out
at my face level, or sky someone ridiculously. when i watch women's
ultimate, i spend the whole time saying to myself "man, i could
TOTALLY do that..." it's just not as much fun. as a woman, i think
that sucks. as a spectator, i'm realistically going to go where the
action is. so it makes sense that's where the money is also. i think
we'd get a lot more love if we could find a way to make it lucrative
to film women's ultimate. preferably without resorting to dancing
girls.
ulticritic
>
> here i go, getting sucked in again...
>
> for starters, toad, "guys" is a gender-neutral term at this point.
> you can use it to refer to a group of people that is entirely composed
> of females. no need for corrections or insincere apologies.
that was more for the sake of the men (more sarcasm)
-----------------------------------------------------------
>
> secondly, women didn't start playing ultimate to be more spirited than
> men.
i dont think anybody starts playin ultimate to be spirited, beacuse
their spirited, because the game is spirited, etc, etc. Kind of just
trying to get people to face up to the fact that all this spirit shit
is just a front, so.......fuck the dumb shit and bring on the refs.
---------------------------------------------------------------
we started playing because it was fun, or maybe because our
> friends dragged us out, or maybe because we're competitive adrenaline
> junkies with a compulsive need to prove we're just as tough as any guy
> out there. hard to say, really.
or maybe because your boyfriend played????
---------------------------------------------------
the point is, good spirit is a plus,
> but it's not the reason we play ultimate. so why would we boast about
> it?
you wouldnt....because.....it would be stupid to do so. Kind of why
so many people think spirit scoring is stupid too. And this is why i
say women are not only more spirited than men but also
smarter....."thats right...."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> as for your comment about the "chauvinist assholes" who slam us for
> not being as skilled or athletic.. where do i even start?
how about at the beggining.......with the "you cant throw hammers
well" argument
---------------------------------------------------------------------
most women
> playing sports have realized at some point that we are not as tall, as
> strong, or as fast as the average guy on the field. we biology types
> even have a special word for the concept. it's called "sexual
> dimorphism." to recognize this fact, or even to talk openly about it,
> does not make one an asshole. it makes one a realist.
what about the notion that there is also a psycological difference
too.....you know, the "mars and venus" thing? Do you deny that the
rule enforcement system is more condusive to a womans conflict
resolution process? After all, the New games, anti win at all costs,
self regulated cross team officiation system was initially established
by a woman AND historically women have shown much higher levels of
spirit and sportsperson ship under this regulated system???
----------------------------------------------------------------
and the skill
> level? maybe it is lower.
maybe???...please
-----------------------------------------------
might have something to do with the fact
> that it's hard to find ladies with previous experience, so a lot of
> women's teams are starting all of their rookies from zero, and they've
> got some catching up to do. this will change.
i doubt it will change....or change all that much. Look at other
sports. The same dynamics exist in those as well.
---------------------------------------------------------
but still, i wonder
> where you get off calling guys assholes for stating simple facts while
> you try to rally support for your pet notions by bashing women (see
> the 'real men wouldn't play this sport because it's a sissy sport for
> girls unless you make my changes" argument).
damn, ya found me out. I told ya you bitches were smart. So what can
i say, it is what it is. I mean i'm on here so much, calling the men
out for playing under a girls rule system, that i got to come up with
different ways to do it. But, like it or not, most men are
assholes....i know i'm one.
-------------------------------------------------------
i get this feeling that
> in your perfect world, the only way i'd set foot on the field is
> dancing for a halftime show.
if you were hot and had the moves. but truthfully, i'm not opposed to
women playing sports. I just dont think its all that entertaining to
watch em. Mens sports competition is simply a superior form of
entertainment....the ratings dont lie.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
actually, probably not even then,
> because i don't really have the boobs to be a dancing girl.
well, there are procedures available
------------------------------------------------------
(note:
> just in case all you chauvinist assholes out there think i was
> defending you, i'm not. you're still jerks.
sing it sista!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
i just think toad was
> throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this one.)
mmmmm, i dont know what that means here. what represents the baby and
what represents the bathwater????
-----------------------------------------------
>
> now, in response to the original post:
> the general tone of RSD is certainly not one that's terribly
> respectful of women. maybe that's because a lot of women don't post
> here? maybe it's because every time someone tries to stick up for
> women, their post gets a one star rating. maybe it's because we don't
> feel like a flame war on RSD to defend our honor is worthwhile.
exactly....your smarter and more spirited......which is why you seem
to do a lot better than the men (that is the real men) working under
this silly rule enforcement process.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> despite the fact that i'm a girl, i'd rather watch men's games too.
well if ya had to choose between watching one or the other, which
would it be?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> why? because of the big plays. if i don't know anyone and i'm
> watching for sheer entertainment value, i want to watch a dude lay out
> at my face level, or sky someone ridiculously. when i watch women's
> ultimate, i spend the whole time saying to myself "man, i could
> TOTALLY do that..." it's just not as much fun.
you understand then......so whats the big deal?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
as a woman, i think
> that sucks. as a spectator, i'm realistically going to go where the
> action is. so it makes sense that's where the money is also. i think
> we'd get a lot more love if we could find a way to make it lucrative
> to film women's ultimate.
FIRST ya got to find a way to make it lucrative to film
mens......which isnt that hard.......refs, timed games, dancin girls,
single elim, smaller rosters, fanfair, beer men, etc,etc.......it aint
rocket science.
---------------------------------------------------------------
preferably without resorting to dancing
> girls.
sorry, like it or not, sex sells. as long as we are trying to appeal
to a male dominated audience it helps to have jigglin ta ta's to lust
over during the down time. Thats an optional enhancement
though......no way your goin anywhere without refs and all the other
stuff though.....and if you are gonna put all that effort into it
might as well go all out and bring on the ho's. You guys(meaning men
and lesbian women) know what i'm talkin bout.
ulticritic
well that seems kinda sexist. i dont not watch the nba cause its
mostly black people and i'm white.....in fact i seem to enjoy it less
the more white people are playing. fuckin slow ass, no jumpin white
boys fuckin it up for the brothas.
jacob...@gmail.com
why would we boast about it?"
Right. And boasting about it wouldn't be very spirited, either.
"i wonder where you get off calling guys assholes for stating simple
facts while you try to rally support for your pet notions by bashing
women (see the 'real men wouldn't play this sport because it's a sissy
sport for girls unless you make my changes" argument)."
She nailed you, Toad. Bam. You're like those fundamentalist
Christians who pushed through legislation to make murdering a pregnant
woman count as two murders. They played it like they were looking out
for women, but it was a sideways attack on abortion rights. You're
Bill O'Reilly in a Phil Donohue suit.
"i get this feeling that in your perfect world, the only way i'd set
foot on the field is dancing for a halftime show."
Now you're not being fair, Kelcie. Toad is (directly and directly)
responsible for literally hundreds of women picking up ultimate. Not
that he would object to seeing these women dance.
"just in case all you chauvinist assholes out there think i was
defending you, i'm not. you're still jerks."
No, I'm pretty sure you're defending us, Kelcie. Thanks.
"the general tone of RSD is certainly not one that's terribly
respectful of women ... maybe it's because RSD is not necessarily the
most sensitive of forums."
There you go. Some guys on rsd are sexist, but most of the dumb stuff
we guys post about women basically treats women the same as men are
treated on rsd-poorly. This is not particularly cool, but it's not
necessarily sexist, either.
"not a lot of political correctness around here, not a lot of common
courtesy either."
I agree. "Political correctness" is a tricky term, though. Some PC
stuff is ridiculous (like that fifth grade boy who was suspended from
school for kissing a female classmate), but a lot of it boils down to
dominant groups being less free to pick on non dominant groups (like
male workers not being able to slap the asses of female coworkers ...
not that guys are always the "dominant" group in the workplace), which
is totally legit.
"as a spectator, i'm realistically going to go where the action is.
so it makes sense that's where the money is also. i think we'd get a
lot more love if we could find a way to make it lucrative to film
women's ultimate."
Now you're getting to the heart of jspash's original post. But if
you're not going to choose watching women's ultimate, let alone pay
for it, what do you really have to say to jspash?
ulticritic
> "good spirit is a plus, but it's not the reason we play ultimate. so
> why would we boast about it?"
>
> Right. And boasting about it wouldn't be very spirited, either.
so why quantify it with the scoring and spirit hoopla??? I think the
sport of ultimate is having one of those androgenous moments. Time to
choose which way your gonna swing there sport.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> She nailed you, Toad. Bam. You're like those fundamentalist
> Christians
HEY, YOU CAN CALL ME JUST ABOUT ANYTHING BUT DONT YOU EVER, EVER, EVER
CALL ME A FUCKIN CHRISTIAN, THEMS FIGHTEN WORDS......AND NOW YOU ARE
BACK ON MY SHIT LIST.....anyway, "jah alone a chistian".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
who pushed through legislation to make murdering a pregnant
> woman count as two murders. They played it like they were looking out
> for women, but it was a sideways attack on abortion rights. You're
> Bill O'Reilly in a Phil Donohue suit.
uhmmmm, i'd say i'm more of collin cowherd in a bill maher suit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now you're not being fair, Kelcie. Toad is (directly and directly)
> responsible for literally hundreds of women picking up ultimate. Not
> that he would object to seeing these women dance.
well, some of em
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "not a lot of political correctness around here, not a lot of common
> courtesy either."
pffft, what the fuck are you talkin about.....its like a pc convention
out hear in this shit.......some of you mutha fuckas cant even spell
out cuss words. But there is quite a bit of selective hypocracy with
in it all.....like how me and frank get slammed for sayin gay yet some
of these other fucks can say retarded all day long and no one gives a
shit.
jacob...@gmail.com
ultimate. so why would we boast about it?"
me: "Right. And boasting about it wouldn't be very spirited, either."
Toad: "so why quantify it with the scoring and spirit hoopla???"
me again: Sing it, Brutha.
______________________________________________
me: "She nailed you, Toad. Bam. You're like those fundamentalist
Christians"
Toad: "HEY, YOU CAN CALL ME JUST ABOUT ANYTHING BUT DONT YOU EVER,
EVER, EVER CALL ME A FUCKIN CHRISTIAN, THEMS FIGHTEN WORDS......AND
NOW YOU ARE BACK ON MY SHIT LIST."
me again: I wasn't calling you a Christian. I was comparing the phony
props you give women's SOTG to the phony concern fundamentalists
Christians show for women when it suits them; concern which disappears
whenever women try to assert their rights. I actually always figured
you were Jewish, since your last name is Leber and you love to
complain. Please remove me from your shit list asap, and notify me of
this removal. Thank you.
____________________________________________________________
Kelcie: "not a lot of political correctness around here, not a lot of
common courtesy either."
me: "I agree."
Toad: "pffft, what the fuck are you talkin about.....its like a pc
convention out hear in this shit."
me again: Both you and Kelcie can be correct here. Rsd in PC in some
ways and non-PC in other ways. To quote you: "me and frank get
slammed for sayin gay yet some of these other fucks can say retarded
all day long and no one gives a shit." As for the lack of common
courtesy on rsd, you can't blame for agreeing with Kelcie on that
one.
Judd
> I don't want to go and bash Rob for putting all those videos up... I
> love watching them, but come on where's the love for the ladies?
I had come across this video recently, it's pretty cool so might as
well post it. The accompanying song wasn't quite doin' it for me, but
these ladies were pretty impressive.
ulticritic
>
> me again: I wasn't calling you a Christian. I was comparing the phony
> props you give women's SOTG to the phony concern fundamentalists
> Christians show for women when it suits them; concern which disappears
> whenever women try to assert their rights.
well ya pegged me there.....dont really know what bill oriley and phil
donehue are all about though......all thought i do know oriley is
scared to go on "real time"(i hear he's a republican prick.........and
i'm a nader man)
so how could i be him........do you even know who collin cowherd is?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually always figured
> you were Jewish,
i am, but just when it comes to money........i'm actually an
existentialist
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
since your last name is Leber and you love to
> complain. Please remove me from your shit list asap, and notify me of
> this removal. Thank you.
oh, i was just fuckin with ya about all that.(of which you probably
knew)
kelcie
>
> > because i don't really have the boobs to be a dancing girl.
>
> well, there are procedures available
> ------------------------------------------------------
don't be silly. they'd get in the way when i ran. plus, that shit
costs money; i'm poor and i'd rather spend it on tournaments.
BMaster
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MK98mUAdNc&feature=related
That was a very nice video. Miranda Roth is crazy good.
ulticritic
just fuckin with ya.....there are plenty of hos out there that could
fill that role so no worries.
ulticritic
ehh, i wasnt that impressed.....and maranda.....get some sistas out
there and she'd just be the best white chick.
jcpa...@gmail.com
to respond to jacob's comment:
"Now you're getting to the heart of jspash's original post. But if
you're not going to choose watching women's ultimate, let alone pay
for it, what do you really have to say to jspash?"
I DO watch women's ultimate all the time. I watch all the finals on
CSTV for the college women including the highlights every year. But
it's hard to watch it outside of playing in tournaments when there's
not a lot of stuff online. I prefer watching hardcore women's
ultimate (yes... it does exist, i've seen it) than guys. It was
actually only this year that I started watching guys ultimate because
I actually find it way more interesting out west than I do back east.
Perhaps I just have a regional bias?
I don't pay for ultivillage because what's the point in watching all
this open ultimate when I can't learn anything about my competitors.
I can't watch UCLA or Stanford or Colorado etc. etc. and see how they
run offense or defense like my guy friends can. And I think I've been
forced to watch Sunburn video until my eyes pop out. I love them, but
there's only so much male-ness I can take.
My original point of this post was to ask the question of WHY women
don't have as many videos out there and why open pool play and bracket
play are recorded for everyone to see but there's only the women's
finals of vegas out there for me to watch. (Which I've seen and there
were a lot of hammers thrown) I want some love out there for us and I
want people to see what we are capable of doing.
Pashley
ulticritic
> Awesome video, thanks for posting it
>
> to respond to jacob's comment:
> "Now you're getting to the heart of jspash's original post. But if
> you're not going to choose watching women's ultimate, let alone pay
> for it, what do you really have to say to jspash?"
>
> I DO watch women's ultimate all the time. I watch all the finals on
> CSTV for the college women including the highlights every year.
sheeew, glutton for punishment, arent ya?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> My original point of this post was to ask the question of WHY women
> don't have as many videos out there and why open pool play and bracket
> play are recorded for everyone to see but there's only the women's
> finals of vegas out there for me to watch. (Which I've seen and there
> were a lot of hammers thrown) I want some love out there for us and I
> want people to see what we are capable of doing.
how about this for an idea......why dont one of you WOMEN take your
fucking lame asses out there and video tape WOMEN if you want to see
WOMEN so fuckin bad on videos. jesus fuckin christ.....listen to
yourselfs. see now this is the typical ultimate attitude. Your
smarter and more spirited but your just as apathetic......"its all me,
me, me....love me, want me, kiss me"......."oh yea, theyre desperate
and insecure people"....( A for the day to whomever can "name that
quote")
but really.....why the fuck should men tape your shit, you should be
fuckin thankful they tape what they do?
jacob...@gmail.com
I never said you didn't. I was asking how Kelcie, a woman player does
not, would directly respond to your concern, which I don't think she
really did in her post. Not that she didn't have other good points.
"I prefer watching hardcore women's ultimate (yes... it does exist,
i've seen it) than guys."
OK. I hope you don't think I was suggesting that hardcore women's
Ultimate does not exist.
"I don't pay for ultivillage because what's the point in watching all
this open ultimate when I can't learn anything about my competitors."
If you don't feel like paying money to watch footage of men's
ultimate, that's your business. But, for the record, I don't think
many of the men and women who buy these DVD's are doing so to learn
about the teams which were filmed. I think they do it for
entertainment.
"there's only so much male-ness I can take."
I'm not going near this one.
"My original point of this post was to ask the question of WHY women
don't have as many videos out there and why open pool play and bracket
play are recorded for everyone to see but there's only the women's
finals of vegas out there for me to watch."
Yes, I understood that. I did not mean to ignore your question. I
just didn't have any insight to offer beyond what had already been
posted, so I addressed ancillary points made by others on this thread.
"(Which I've seen and there were a lot of hammers thrown)"
Why do you mention women throwing hammers? Is this a topic we should
delve further into?
"I want some love out there for us and I want people to see what we
are capable of doing."
Fair enough.
Ajax
this open ultimate when I can't learn anything about my competitors.
I can't watch UCLA or Stanford or Colorado etc. etc. and see how they
run offense or defense like my guy friends can."
i pride myself in being one of the most prepared players on the field
before I even show up Saturday morning, but I'll tell you that UVTV
has almost nothing to do with it. I've even sat with the score
reporter
rosters up on the screen, pausing on each throw to find out who threw
it
to whom, and who was defending at the time, and UVTV helps little
to none. What UVtv IS good for is for learning personal technique by
slowing the footage to frame by frame before big hucks, big layouts,
or proper positioning when tracking down a floaty disc. At best, you
put
a face to a name, and maybe learn if they have accurate upsidown
throws.
If anyone relied on such incomplete footage to try and devise a
defensive
strategy against a top tier team, the type I assume you might hope to
learn
about from UVTV, they would get railed on.
Close to none of the UVTV clips are of full games, let alone give
you a perspective of the entire field which is conducive to watching
a coordinated play develop from flow.
that being said, i effin love what Rob does for ultimate, love
ultivillage, UVTV
and all the other independent coverage which tries to encourage growth
of the sport.
Obama / Rob, anybody? It's got a nice ring to it.
Weston
bbz...@gmail.com
"there's only so much male-ness I can take."
a) Solidarity, sister! There's only so much male-ness ANYONE can take!
b) Ain't no sin! Get down with your bad self on a Saturday night!
c) It's Geometry, people!
d) Step away from the keyboard, and tell'em you were drunk!
e) I hear that all the time, you have NO idea.... have we met?
Play Softballs! It's fun!
Sara Jacobi
but I think the current ratio of men's clips to women's clips has more
to do with the male-dominated audience than anything. There are just
more men watching, commenting and creating interest in their own clips
than on the women's side.
Ladies, it has to start with US generating interest in our own sport.
Would any of us randomly start watching clips of a rugby game online?
No. Would we watch a rugby clip if someone said, "Hey watch this great
rugby clip?" Probably. So what's stopping any of us from borrowing a
video camera or buying a team camera and actually shooting our games
ourselves, putting it up for everyone to see, and creating some
interest for it? Yeah, it will not look as nice as something done
"professionally" but it's a start. And if an audience grows for that
kind of stuff, it could attract those professionals to cover us more
because there will be more of a demand for it.
In general, we need to do more for ourselves and stop blaming the
guys. Let's create the demand that will be followed by the supply.
If we're not willing to do it for ourselves, who's going to do it?
- Sara
ps. That's not to say that we can't blame guys for being sexist or
otherwise putting down our sport. I'm just saying we can't really
blame men for not covering our games when we're not doing much to
cover them ourselves or generate interest in our games. It's also not
discounting the many men and women out there already who are working
hard for women's ultimate -- and i've met quite a few -- just saying
that the number of female players out there greatly outnumber these
select few, and us players could do a LOT more to help.
ulticritic
>
> - Sara
> ps. That's not to say that we can't blame guys for being sexist or
> otherwise putting down our sport.
are you saying that you CAN blame me for putting down (critisizing)
your sport? Or that you CAN and SHOULD blame those for putting it in
the position its in to be so easily critisized? If its the latter
then i would like to know how the fuck you figure that?
ulticritic
i meant "if its the former".........
Gambler
they'd like to promote (either it's posted on your team website or
you'd like to find a place to host it), let me know and I can put the
link or upload the video to IC Ultimate.
ulticritic
> Good call, Sara.
good call sara???? what about ulticritic. dont i get any credit for
callin you WOMEN out to step up......member me?
-------------------------------------------------------
Baer
I'm bothered but not surprised by seeing sexism within the Ultimate
community. I of course, want Ultimate to be as big as possible, and I
would like to see more female involvement in the sport. It's good for
Ultimate and good for sports in general to include females.
Having said that however, it is true that in most cases, men's sports
are more entertaining than female sports, based on the total athletic
spectacle. In some cases, women's sports are better to watch than
men's (volleyball and tennis, for example), but that's more because of
the sex appeal, actually.
As a marketing tool to get more female players at all levels, I agree
that there should be more footage of women's Ultimate. As a marketing
tool for getting competitve Ultimate on the air and to make money, the
men's game is where we need to go. That's business.
But ladies (and everyone else), keep playing Ultimate, and tell your
friends.
ulticritic
the interesting thing to me about this thread is that no one refutes
the fact that the current rule structure is girlie.
hard to refute the facts though.....just thought that the frank and
ref haters club would at least give it a shot.
Gambler
read justifying a disproportionate amount of men's coverage than
women's. People have said time and time again that "men's sports are
more entertaining than female sports" (Baer quoted this time). That
might be true to the casual observer. It might be true to many
players (both men and women). But it is NOT true for a significant
number of players around the country. Just because those players are
primarily women and haven't been traditionally marketed to as "sports
fans" doesn't mean that they wouldn't shell out for UltiVillage DVDs
or UVTV subscriptions. Right now, there's been no real effort to
build a base of women's followers for UltiVillage footage.
There are a number of women's coaches and players that find women's
footage much more entertaining and interesting than men's footage.
Why? Because they would be watching the players and the teams that
they compete against or aspire to be like. Pashley is right on when
she says she would love to have more footage of other teams to help
prepare her own team.
Someone else posted that they don't find UltiVillage's footage all
that helpful in terms of scouting and preparation. I have to firmly
disagree. Before going to Japan, Sockeye did extensive film review of
Buzz Bullet games covered by UltiVillage at ECC. They were able to
identify things about top players, defensive and offensive
strategies. Even though MUD and UNO (the two Japanese club teams who
make up the Japanese national team) were both at ECC, the coverage of
their games was no help at all for Fury's scouting efforts. There
just wasn't enough video.
Women's games that have been fully filmed and disseminated have had
HUGE impacts. Even "boring" games like the zone game in the 2003
finals of Nationals that ended 17-4 have been extremely useful in
spreading strategies and techniques. The four-person cup had a huge
explosion in women's college ultimate after that video because teams
were able to watch it being played at the highest level.
Additionally, club team offenses were able to strategically adapt to
take advantage of some of the holes the four-person cup gives up (and
were visible on video). That one video had a tangible impact on the
game. Imagine what could happen if there was more film of women's
ultimate. How many more high school players could watch and learn?
How many more college players could prepare and push themselves? How
many more club players could scout and strategize?
People always give lip service to promoting women's ultimate, but I
think that media coverage is an important avenue that has been largely
overlooked because of misconceptions of the market and marketability
of the footage. Sure, women's teams need to take it upon themselves
and generate that video coverage. But the UPA also needs to produce
more DVDs covering the women's side of competition and independent
companies like UltiVillage should commit to marketing to women too.
Baer
> I would just like to point out one problem I see with the logic I've
> read justifying a disproportionate amount of men's coverage than
> women's. People have said time and time again that "men's sports are
> more entertaining than female sports" (Baer quoted this time). That
> might be true to the casual observer. It might be true to many
> players (both men and women). But it is NOT true for a significant
> number of players around the country. Just because those players are
> primarily women and haven't been traditionally marketed to as "sports
> fans" doesn't mean that they wouldn't shell out for UltiVillage DVDs
> or UVTV subscriptions.
True, and what I said was just a general opinion and doesn't apply to
everyone, of course.
Well said, I agree with your whole post.
thefan
o quit being such a bunch of ninnies and put the fact out there.
womens basketball gets second billing to mens bball. softball to
baseball and they're both boring. even in soccer, which no one
watches at all and was billed as the sport for little girls to get
behind went belly up. womens sports are boring. there i said it
cause i got no friends any ways. want to see athleticism that you can
appreciate on a small screen, watch men do it. want power that makes
you sit back and say "WOW" watch men do it. men are stronger, faster,
more agile across the board than women. want to watch a sport for
strategy, watch the ladies. they are more technically skilled, stay
in position more, freelance less.
so if you were trying to build from the ground up a viewership of a
sport that is poorly formatted for any sort of video coverage anyways,
would you choose the one with the dudes flying around the field
throwing 75 yard upside down throws, or the one where that one girl
has such perfect footwork?
The Fan
thefan
What if the Ladies played in skin tight circus outfits?
i think womens wrestling does relatively well.
The Fan
Baer
> want to watch a sport for
> strategy, watch the ladies. they are more technically skilled, stay
> in position more, freelance less.
>
Actually, when I was captaining a co-ed B League team with a bunch of
newbies a few years ago, I watched a DVD of the women's college
nationals for ideas on strategy and how to react to multiple
turnovers, since I knew my team would likely not be able to run all
over the place and huck all day with no turnovers (like the men's
games on the same DVD).
Sorry to be such a ninny, by the way.
jacob...@gmail.com
viewership of a sport that is poorly formatted for any sort of video
coverage anyways, would you choose the one with the dudes flying
around the field throwing 75 yard upside down throws, or the one where
that one girl has such perfect footwork?
me: Did you read Gwen Ambler's post?
Gwen Ambler (aka Gambler): "People have said time and time again that
thefan
Joe, maybe you should quit quoting other people's PC crap and get out
and ask some folks. i bet you couldn't get 1/3 of female ultimate
players you asked to tell you that women's ultimate is more
entertaining than mens ultimate.
in fact, if you're a woman, and you think women's ultimate is MORE
EXCITING than mens ultimate, let us know about it. tell us why.
and for god sakes Joe, i know people have stated what i stated before,
but when they do it like that, it's straight ninny talk. "i realize
that for the majority of nontraditionally engendered persons who may
have been over looked in someway and are not represented . . .
" MALARKY. just say it.
Mens sports are more fun to watch than Womens sports. men are more
exciting, do cooler shit, make bigger plays. no on in their right
mind believes that women playing sports is more exciting than men
playing sports. there may be parts of the game that are better on the
womens side (like watching two guys get in a dick measuring contest
over whether the thrower stepped into the mark or vice versa) but
once the players and the disc are moving, women's ultimate is
boring.
and, if you are getting a media venture off of the ground and you have
to choose who to market to and what to market, do you market mens
ultimate, which will be favored by all men who want their ultimate on
video and the vast majority of women, or do you market womens
ultimate, which will be watched by some women who want their ultimate
on video and 12 guys who coach womens teams? that's why women who
would rather watch womens sports are "not traditionally marketed to,"
there ain't enough of them to fill a swimming pool.
so Joe, you say what other people say and i say what i say. get some
opinions of your own and let us in on them.
or not, sounds like they might not be worth much.
The Fan
thefan
<
sorry, not Joe, Jacob
course if you got no thoughts of your own, why do you need your own
name?
just use somebody elses one o those too.
The Fan
jacob...@gmail.com
out and ask some folks. i bet you couldn't get 1/3 of female ultimate
players you asked to tell you that women's ultimate is more
entertaining than mens ultimate."
me: It sounds to me like you have three problems with my quoting
Gwen.
1) First, that I was being unoriginal and/or redundant by quoting
Gwen.
2) Second, that Gwen's statement was PC.
3) Third, that my statement was not based on actual knowledge of what
Ultimate players "out there" want.
As to my decision to quote Gwen; I did this because given the
body of your post, I thought there was a chance you had not read her
entire post, and I thought she made a good point.
As to Gwen's statement being PC; I actually quoted her
specifically because she made an argument which was not based on
political correctness, one which clearly acknowledged that most people
would rather watch mens' ultimate than women's ultimate. I Include
this argument again for your reference: "People have said time and
time again that 'men's sports are more entertaining than female
sports' (Baer quoted this time). That might be true to the casual
observer. It might be true to many players (both men and women). But
it is NOT true for a significant number of players around the
country. Just because those players are primarily women and haven't
been traditionally marketed to as "sports fans" doesn't mean that they
wouldn't shell out for UltiVillage DVDs or UVTV subscriptions." This
is a market-driven argument. It may be incorrect, but it is
definitely not PC.
As to your suggestion that I "get out and ask some folks" their
opinions; it is very telling that you assume that I have not done so
simply because I appear to disagree with you (for now, we can leave
aside the fact that I actually agree with some of your points). Your
assumption is wrong. I know many Ultimate players, and have spent
plenty (probably too much) of time talking to them about the type of
things people debate and discuss on rsd. I can't say with certainty
that it would make short-term financial success for Ultivillage to
film more women's Ultimate (and I don't think anyone could make a
conclusion on this issue from anecdotal evidence, anyway), but I can
say that I know plenty of women players and coaches of women's
Ultimate who would buy DVDs of competitive women's Ultimate.
the fan: "in fact, if you're a woman, and you think women's ultimate
is MORE EXCITING than mens ultimate, let us know about it."
me: Nobody on this thread has made this assertion, nor is this
assertion a necessary part of promoting the filming of women's
ultimate. Even if women's ultimate is equally as exciting or less
exciting than men's ultimate, Gwen's argument may still hold water.
the fan: "and for god sakes Joe, i know people have stated what i
stated before, but when they do it like that, it's straight ninny
talk. 'i realize that for the majority of nontraditionally engendered
persons who may have been over looked in someway and are not
represented . . . ' MALARKY. just say it."
me: I'm not sure why you are telling me this. As a guy who grew up in
The Bronx and then went to college at UC Santa Cruz at the height of
PC hysteria, I have often been accused of being too blunt. Anyway, I
caution you against treating all PCish preambles as though they are
the same. Sometimes "ninny talk" can be factually accurate. For
example, when someone says that (beginning of PC preamble) women have
traditionally not been as encouraged to play sports, which helps
explain why (end of PC preamble) women's sports are not as dynamic as
men's sports, this may make you cringe, but it is true. Further,
people with the mindset to make such realizations are partially
responsible for how much more exciting women's sports have become
recently.
the fan: "and, if you are getting a media venture off of the ground
and you have to choose who to market to and what to market, do you
market mens ultimate, which will be favored by all men who want their
ultimate on video and the vast majority of women, or do you market
womens ultimate, which will be watched by some women who want their
ultimate on video and 12 guys who coach womens teams?"
me: Nobody is suggesting that Ultivillage stop marketing men's
ultimate, or even that they make women's ultimate half of their
agenda. Jcpash and the others are just hoping to see more women's
ultimate DVDs. Your argument would make sense if Ultivillage only
made one DVD a year. If they are making a handful of DVDs, your
argument is less strong.
You are also overlooking the fact that many products sold to
athletes end up enjoying long term success because the people selling
the products take chances by getting in on the ground floor and
developing good will with fringe groups (see Jake Burton). Gwen
Ambler (aka Gambler) is a national champion on the college and club
level, and had represented our country in international competition.
In 15 years, when the ultimate DVD market will likely be bigger, she
may be completely done with Ultimate .... or she may be in a position
to decide who gets the contract to film women's Ultimate in whichever
league they play. Crazier things have happened. It wouldn't hurt
Ultivillage to at least listen to what she has to say.
the fan: "that's why women who would rather watch womens sports are
'not traditionally marketed to,' there ain't enough of them to fill a
swimming pool."
me: Right. For DVDs of women's ultimate to be a financial successful
venture, women ultimate players would actually have to behave in a non-
traditional way; namely, by buying footage of their sport. I can see
this happening, and you can't. Fair enough. People and markets have
been known to occasionally break tradition, though.
the fan: "so Joe, you say what other people say and i say what i say.
get some opinions of your own and let us in on them. or not, sounds
like they might not be worth much."
me: 1) Quoting other people is not the same as lacking an opinion of
your own.
2) While my opinions may be wrong, they are readily available
for you to read. In fact, I had even stated some of them on this very
post. Did you not read the rest of this thread, or did you find that
my earlier posts were devoid of opinion?
3) It must be nice to feel free to accuse someone of both being
devoid of opinion and also of having worthless opinions. I could
never accuse someone of both of these things, as I am bound by reason.
4) You want my opinion? My opinion is when a guy accuses other
guys of being "ninnies" because those other guys are trying to be nice
to women, it means he is probably a little insecure about his
masculinity. Newsflash buddy: posting anti-PC stuff on the internet
does not make you any less of a ninny or any more of a man.
the fan: "sorry, not Joe, Jacob. course if you got no thoughts of your
own, why do you need your own name? just use somebody elses one o
those too."
me: Yeah ..... don't quit your day job, there, Mr. comedian.
Rob
happen.
On a more serious note, here is the simple truth. I have lost money on
every women's DVD that I have produced. Period.
I understand that there is a small group of women ultimate fans that
are being underserved, but it is because serving this community is
"unsustainable", a word that makes me shiver considering that only the
elite open club tournaments allow UV to survive at all. The coverage
that UV provides at the UPA Club Championships is mandated by the UPA
and I respect this. As such for the past 2 years I have covered open,
women's and mixed (mixed generates more sales than women's) but I have
done so at the expense of my open coverage.
I made it very affordable for women's teams to receive more coverage
during the NCUS series by offering team subscriptions for $100 (less
than $5 per player) and I received ONE women's team order. It just so
happens that the coach of that team is a very good UV customer. At
Stanford I only had 1 camera so it was a choice between covering the
division that paid the bills, or the one that doesn't. I chose the
former.
The hard truth is that women (in general) are less inclined to
purchase sports videos than men. Look at the shelves of any sporting
store. That's the market speaking.
Having said all of this, I am looking for ways to make covering
women's ultimate more viable. UV is currently working with the UPA to
ensure that the women's division will receive more coverage at the UPA
College Championships in May.
Stay tuned.
Rob
PS - We did film the women's final from Centex and part of the semis.
These will air on UVtv over the next few weeks. Ladies, this is your
chance to prove me wrong.