Catching pull out of bounds

[Brandon]

So I've been asking around and can't seem to nail down a
solid answer on this.

What happens if you catch a pull out of bounds that was
going to come back in bounds? Or even what happens if you
catch a pull while straddling the line, hence, you are
technically out of bounds?

I know in football, for example and where this idea came
from, that on a kickoff if the ball was close enough to the
sideline for a player put one foot out of bounds and touch
the ball then it was a penalty. Could this same tactic be
applied to Ultimate?

--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com

[Jared]

VIII.B.7 "If the pull is caught, the disc is put into play
at the spot on the playing field nearest to where it was
caught."

[bil]

On May 28, 6:05 am, Jared <hockeysta...@aol.com> wrote:
> VIII.B.7 "If the pull is caught, the disc is put into play
> at the spot on the playing field nearest to where it was
> caught."

So no brick, sideline (most likely), ground tap. In the unlikely
event that you are gaining yards by catching it out of bounds, more
power to you. But also, you're an idiot if you drop it. I'm an
idiot, but not for trying to catch it _out of bounds_.

I like that you "ask around" instead of checking the rules
themselves. That seems like a good tactic, resulting in excellent
application on the field.

[Michael Logan]

And to be clear, it is brought into the closest spot on the
playing field including end zones. Thus, I don't believe
there is a situation where you would gain yards.

[David Landstra]

What if after the disc leaves the field of play it starts
traveling backwards. If you let the pull land out of bounds
it is "Bricked" either to the brick mark if beyond it or to
the center of the field if the disc never reached the brick.
But if you catch it as its traveling backwards while out of
bounds would you tap it in on the sideline where it went out
or the closest point of the field? To be clear i am
assuming the disc will not be landing inbounds. With the
above stated rule it seems like you would gain yards here.

[Michael Logan]

You tap it on the closest point on the field relative to the
catch.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> You tap it on the closest point on the field relative to the
> catch.

~~~~~~~~~~~

---yeah...curiously...why the hell do ya have to "tap it on" the
ground?
how dumb is that?????

in the UOA....no ground taps.

[David Landstra]

Congrats UOA no ground taps. I think everyone that reads RSD
knows you don't use ground taps and could care less.

[Alex]

I think everyone knows that he's not going to comment unless
it's to promote the UOA and thus automatically skips over
his ---comments...

[anakin gerics]

> Congrats UOA no ground taps. I think everyone that reads RSD
> knows you don't use ground taps and could care less.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---soooo....you're gonna keep leaning down and happily tapping the
disc on the ground for no good reason?
seems...ultra-retarded...but....if you're gonna gleefully follow
idiotic senseless and useless rules for absolutely no reason at
all.....hey, more lack of power to you.

dumbest rule in sports....well......dumbest rule for one branch of the
sport.

[anakin gerics]

> I think everyone knows that he's not going to comment unless
> it's to promote the UOA and thus automatically skips over
> his ---comments...

~~~~~~~~~~~

---untrue...i post plenty of posts that aren't 'promoting' the UOA.

but when i see where someone points out the need to lean down and tap
the disc on the ground for no good reason other than some moron at the
upsa decided erroneously that it could somehow help their version of
the sport....i like to point out how dumb that rule is.

[anakin gerics]

> Congrats UOA no ground taps. I think everyone that reads RSD
> knows you don't use ground taps and could care less.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---i'd start caring more.....and give it a try.
everyone who's tried it...has liked it.
why reply with some lame shit talk....when it's pretty clear....that
the ground tap is senseless, useless, and unnecessary?
i mean....are you so 'down' with leaning down to tap the disc on the
ground that you reject the idea of NOT having to?

have you ever FAILED to tap the disc....and had the sky fall?

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Congrats UOA no ground taps. I think everyone that reads RSD
> knows you don't use ground taps and could care less.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

---do you have an opinion about the useless ground tap?
do you love leaning down for no reason while the marker stalls you?
are you FIRED UP when you get to lean down and tap the disc on the
ground?
do you wish you didn't have to?

[David Landstra]

I actually like the UOA's thinking with giving the observers
more power. I am in the camp of high level ultimate needs
ref's to advance and become more accepted. That being said I
do not agree with removing the ground tap. To me its like
the throw in soccer and basketball. Its a way for everyone
on the field to know at one time when the disc is back in
the field of play.

[Reggie Fanelli]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--sure...it is exactly like a throw in for soccer and basketball.
yes it is.
it is exactly like a throw in for soccer and basketball.

no ground tap in soccer.
no ground tap in basketball.

why do you CARE, sincerely, 'when' the disc is 'back in the field of
play'?

in basketball....sometimes a defender gets hit on the fanny with the
ball by SURPRISE...and the inbounder steps onto the court, grabs the
ball and scores the easy basket.
does the inbounder WANT everyone to 'know when the ball is back in
play'?
hell no.
it's part of 'gamesmanship' to NOT have everyone know the ball is back
in play.
should that sneaky inbounder SHOUT first....."hey, defender, i'm
getting ready to throw the ball off your fanny for a little trick
inbounds play"????

if the disc goes out of bounds and you have a streaking receiver to
the endzone wide open because his man is pouting about a
turnover....do you WANT to say, 'hey look fella, sorry you aren't
paying attention, but i'm about to put the disc into play so hustle up
and get back on your man!'
hell no....you want to take advantage of the opportunity.


soccer throw in???
do they ground tap?
nope...the jog around...a little this way...a little that way....they
fake the throw...fake the throw short...fake the throw long....they
pivot a bit to fake up field...into the middle....
the whole time...probably HOPING that someone stops 'knowing when the
ball is going to be put back into play'....so that they can take
advantage and get an open throw or a longer throw or a more dangerous
throw.
they're not pumping those fakes so MORE people know when and where
they are going to throw the ball into play.

if a soccer defender is crying that the ball should belong to HIS team
for the throw in.....and isn't paying attention, while crying to the
ref....the throw in ISN'T going to somehow tell him that the ball is
back in play.
RATHER...the thrower in HAS THE OPPORTUNITY to simply throw the ball
in, over his head, beyond him, to a streaking teammate while he
complains to the ref and isn't paying attention.


the ground tap....is NOTHING like a soccer or basketball throw
in.....because NEITHER of those HAS ANYTHING like the ground tap.

one could erroneously debate that when a basketball player SMACKS the
ball after the ref administers the throw in....that THAT is like a
ground tap.
but.....that SMACK initiates the in bound play for THE OFFENSE.
SMACKING the basketball...is NOT a way to tell the D to 'get ready,
the ball is about to be put into play'


again...i ask and wonder why.....you WANT everyone, in particular THE
OPPONENTS to know 'when the disc is back in the field of play'?


no NFL QB walks up to the line of scrimmage and ANNOUNCES...."Defense,
in case you couldn't hear our huddle....the snap will be on HUT HUT
HUT!......ok.......here we go.....DOWN, SET, HUT HUT HUT!"
no soccer player goes....fake fake fake...."the next pump will not be
a fake, it will be the actual throw in"

[Reggie Fanelli]

~~~~~~~~

--no?
yes?
that's what i thought.
abolish the ground tap.

[David Landstra]

Sorry my day job got in the way.

First the NFL never brought up the NFL they don't have
something like the ground tap for when the ball goes out of
bounds. The next play starts just like every other play
during that game.

For soccer and basketball the throw in is something out of
the flow of the game that must be done to signify the ball
is coming back into play. This is especially significant in
ultimate where not everyone on the field has a good view of
where the sideline actually is because most fields don't
have lines. Now I don't know about the UOA if the observers
make a signal when the thrower brings the disc back across
the line but when there are no observers or USAU
observers(which I have already voiced my opinion that they
should have more power) there has to be a signal that tells
everyone on the field the disc is live. Something out of the
flow of the game that is different. Just like the throw in
basketball and soccer. Just establishing a pivot foot is not
different then the normal flow of the game.

[Chad]

I see two good uses for the ground tap.

(1) After a stoppage, no defender is within arm's reach of
the disc, and there are no observers or referees.
(2) The person with the disc has to move (from out of bounds
or from the endzone) to put the disc into play and the
fields are not lined.

(1) is similar to a whistle after a stoppage. This ground
tap can be replaced by a whistle or an arm signal from a
ref/observer or it can be replaced by defensive check if the
defender is in range. In the absence of those, what else
could we do that's better than a ground tap?

How can we get rid of the ground tap in (2) while still
providing an unambiguous indication of WHERE the disc will
be put into play?

You may say "where they establish the pivot" but that is
ambiguous. It shouldn't be up to the defender to watch the
feet to see if the player is pivoting or simply walking
awkwardly.

You may say "they don't need a ground tap before an inbound
pass (after a goal) in basketball or a throw-in in soccer"
but the inbound pass and throw-in are different; you are not
allowed to score with either and in soccer the d can't be
within 2m of the throw-in spot. In ultimate you CAN score
and you CAN be defended closely so there's incentive for the
offense to trick the defense about the location. (I'm not
too concerned about running-start passes so long as the
defender knows exactly where the last step of the running
start will be.)

tl;dr: It is not the same as in basketball or soccer and it
does serve a purpose that establishing a pivot cannot.

[mgd.mitch]

bullale wrote on Wed, 06 June 2012 03:40

> (1) After a stoppage, no defender is within arm's reach
> of the disc, and there are no observers or referees.

a ground tap and a ground check are different. a check is
after a stoppage, a tap is when putting a live disc into
play in certain circumstances.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> First the NFL never brought up the NFL they don't have
> something like the ground tap for when the ball goes out of
> bounds. The next play starts just like every other play
> during that game.

---the NFL never brought up the NFL?
i don't follow.
however...i KNOW that you didn't bring up the NFL.
I DID.
but if you read what i wrote.....it's pretty clear what i was meaning.
you mentioned wanting to let everyone know when the disc is back in
play after it goes out of bounds...and the QB announcing to the D when
the ball will be snapped, is the same thing.
can you.....can you....get that?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> For soccer and basketball the throw in is something out of
> the flow of the game that must be done to signify the ball
> is coming back into play. This is especially significant in
> ultimate where not everyone on the field has a good view of
> where the sideline actually is because most fields don't
> have lines.

---that...............is retarded.
anytime...in any sport....anywhere....when the ball goes out....ain't
'in the flow' of the game....
the throw in doesn't "SIGNIFY" the ball coming back into play. it
just IS the ball coming back into play.
SIGNIFYing, the way you want the ground tap to be...would be something
stupid like the soccer player tapping the ball on the ground before
throwing it in.
or.....a basketball player doing something stupid like....leaning down
and tapping the ball on the ground before throwing it in.


WHY is it significant in ultimate for a thrower to ANNOUNCE to
everyone that they are playing ultimate?
WHY is it significant in ultimate to announce to opponents who might
not be able to see the sideline perfectly, that the thrower is about
to start pivoting and throwing?

most fields don't have sidelines?
they have cones signifying the line, right?
if the thrower ain't on the line....it's a violation.

if there's a violation....BOOM...there should be a call.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now I don't know about the UOA if the observers
> make a signal when the thrower brings the disc back across
> the line

---why....sincerely...in the hell...would an official SIGNAL that the
thrower is on the line and about to start play?
hold on....'back ACROSS the line'........that sounds like a travel.

i've played a ton of ultimate.....and i've seen a million different
situations....and i can't figure a single reason for an official to
announce to the players that a thrower has returned to the field after
chasing the disc out of bounds.
you've been tricked by the ground tap.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

but when there are no observers or USAU
> observers(which I have already voiced my opinion that they
> should have more power) there has to be a signal that tells
> everyone on the field the disc is live.

----why?
and......the disc is live nearly ALL the time, right?.....
it's 'dead' after a goal is scored....and when a foul/violation is
called...right?
if you go out of bounds and pick up the disc....start walking and drop
it....turnover.
if the disc is OB, you're allowed to move.

the disc...is LIVE unless someone just scored...or there's a foul/
violation call

"everyone on the field".....had BETTER BE F-BOMBING paying
attention...or they're gonna get burned....and it shouldn't be the
thrower's responsibility to SIGNAL TO EVERYONE that he's the
thrower....and he's gonna throw.....and he's gettin' ready to throw.

UOA Laws of Ultimate...
Rule Nine: Live and Dead Disc, In and Out of Bounds and Stall Count
Specifics
I. Live Disc and Dead Disc
1. The disc becomes live after an Official restart or when a legal
pull is released
2. While the disc is live, all players are permitted to move and the
disc is subject to turnover both in bounds and out of bounds
3. The disc becomes dead when a goal is scored or after a call is made
and play stops
4. While the disc is dead, players shall hold their position or return
to a position in accordance with the rules and the disc is not subject
to turnover.
~~~~~~~~~

Something out of the
> flow of the game that is different. Just like the throw in
> basketball and soccer. Just establishing a pivot foot is not
> different then the normal flow of the game.

---throw ins are just a way to put the ball back into play after it
goes beyond the boundaries of the field.

in soccer, they, oddly, pick up the ball and throw it in on the
sideline, probably to NOT give as good of an advantage of a corner
kick or a goal kick...or a penalty kick.
in soccer, they kick corners and goal kicks and all awarded penalty
kicks.
with kicks....they sometimes are sneaky and play the ball early or
before folks are paying attention. i've seen direct kicks from 20+
yards out taken while the keeper is standing at the near post
directing his wall.
GOAL.....no useless, senseless, unathletic, awkward lean down and
tapping the disc on the ground.

you mention the sideline out of play resumption of play method of
soccer....the throw in.
why don't you mention the corner kick, where they kick the ball
quickly, nearly instantly in some cases....sometimes while no
opponents are ready to defend?
why don't you mention an awarded penalty kick which are often taken
quickly, before the opponents are ready to defend?
on the corner kicks and quick penalty kicks(not specifically the 12
yard spot kick)....kicks are often taken quickly so that NOT everyone
on the field knows the ball is in play.


in basketball they are slapping the ball to initiate their play, like
a QB saying "HIKE" or whatever....and not everyone slaps the ball,
some have a verbal cue.


i think you're overglorifying the weird need for there to be something
'special' about throwing from the sideline.
i think you have a weird misconception about throw ins in soccer and
basketball.



more...more...more....
the ground tap is dumb...useless....senseless...and puts a thrower in
an unathletic position while the marker is counting 1-2....

[Reggie Fanelli]

> You may say "they don't need a ground tap before an inbound
> pass (after a goal) in basketball or a throw-in in soccer"
> but the inbound pass and throw-in are different; you are not
> allowed to score with either and in soccer the d can't be
> within 2m of the throw-in spot. In ultimate you CAN score
> and you CAN be defended closely so there's incentive for the
> offense to trick the defense about the location.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---so....the ground tap will prevent a thrower from tricking the
defense about where they're going to put the disc into play?

with the ground tap...you're saying the thrower can't go to the wrong
place to put the disc in play?

with the ground tap....the offense can still 'trick' the defense about
location of where the disc will be put back into play....

if the thrower DID go to the wrong spot....and tap the disc
in....isn't that a violation?





and...by the way....i used to have a nasty soccer throw in......i
scored on a throwin to the far upper 90 that was supposed to just be a
cross into the goal area......the keeper dove for the throw in like it
was a shot and barely tapped it....
yes....throw ins are 'indirect'...but that tiny touch made it like a
upper 90 rocket.
word.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> (2) The person with the disc has to move (from out of bounds
> or from the endzone) to put the disc into play and the
> fields are not lined.

> How can we get rid of the ground tap in (2) while still
> providing an unambiguous indication of WHERE the disc will
> be put into play?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


---fields got them cones in the corners right?
a bunch of them make a line...and at the least, two of them cones make
a line.
the path of the disc is a line.
where they cross is where the disc should be put back into play.

leaning down to tap the disc on the ground....ain't determining if the
disc is being put into play at the proper spot of not.
if the thrower leans down and taps the disc on the ground in the wrong
spot.....not matter if everyone knows he's starting play or
not....violation!
no matter if there are field lines or not.

chad seems to think the ground tap is a matter of WHERE to put the
disc into play....and David seems to think the ground tap is a matter
of everyone knowing WHEN the disc is being put back into play.

i say.....I'M gonna know when and where the disc is going to be ?back
in play? because i'm a responsible teammate who pays attention on both
offense and defense.
I'M gonna know where the disc should be put back into play.....my team
or their's.....lined field or not.
I'M gonna know when the disc is going to be put back into play....my
team or their's....lined field or not.

aren't YOU(all of you)?????

I'M going to call violation if the thrower's at the wrong spot if
they're an opponent.
I'M gonna make sure my teammate is in the right place...and not 15 or
60 or 5 yards in the wrong place before putting the disc into play.


The ground tap doesn't make anything better.
it doesn't prevent someone from taking the disc to the wrong spot....
and there's no reason to announce to anyone else when the disc is
legally put back into play...especially the D!

[Reggie Fanelli]

~~~~~

huh?

[Reggie Fanelli]

~~~~~~~~

---yeah?

[mvuong]

For a guy who likes to not read other people's essays about
superfluous subjects, you sure do like to write essays about
superfluous subjects.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> For a guy who likes to not read other people's essays about
> superfluous subjects, you sure do like to write essays about
> superfluous subjects.

~~~~~~~~~

---it's a fucking moronic thing to make a thrower do....
and a stupid thing for an association to force it's athletes to do...

[mgd.mitch]

not particularly relevant to the details of the discussion,
but very relevant to the humor of the thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4rbOUCUIaw

[Nate]

WFDF has no ground tap. At first, it was frustrating when
the thrower would get off an unmarked throw by suddenly
setting a pivot not quite where I was expecting. But once I
started calling those travels it worked fine.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> WFDF has no ground tap. At first, it was frustrating when
> the thrower would get off an unmarked throw by suddenly
> setting a pivot not quite where I was expecting.
But once I
> started calling those travels it worked fine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~


---2 questions....
1-if there's not ground tap in wfdf, why were you frustrated by the
thrower setting a pivot and throwing.....was it because you were
standing there with your hands down not ready to play?
and...
2-what travels were you calling?...if there is no ground tap in
wfdf?...were you calling actual travels or just making up a call?

[Reggie Fanelli]

> WFDF has no ground tap.

---good for them!
The UOA and WFDF know what's up, i guess, in regard to NO ground
tapping.

curiously...anyone who knows....does the AUDL force their players to
senselessly lean down into an unathletic position to tap the disc on
the ground for no reason?
~~~~~~~~~~~

At first, it was frustrating when
> the thrower would get off an unmarked throw by suddenly
> setting a pivot not quite where I was expecting.

---if they leaned down to tap the disc on the ground.....would that
have miraculously PUT THEM where you were expecting them to be?

were they putting the disc into play at the proper spot?

was it frustrating because you were standing there with your arms
down, not paying attention?

was it frustrating because you think that there should be some weird
unnatural pause before a thrower is allowed to throw?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But once I
> started calling those travels it worked fine.

---if there's no ground tap in wfdf......what travels did you start
calling?
were you calling travels BASED on the thrower NOT putting the disc
into play at the proper spot?
and...are you saying that once you starting calling the travel/
violation OF THE THROWER NOT putting the disc into play at the proper
spot....that everything was 'fine' after that?
...that...once you started calling the violation of the thrower not
putting the disc into play at the proper spot...that the throwers
started putting the disc into play at the right spot?

[Reggie Fanelli]

~~~~

--huh?

[Reggie Fanelli]

~~~~~~~

---dave, i'm glad i was able to open your mind...and change it....

ANOTHER person...against the ground tap!
nice.

now...who was the moron that came up with that useless lean down
ground tap?

[David Landstra]

Reggie Fanelli wrote on Sat, 09 June 2012 07:46

> On Jun 5, 12:20 am, David Landstra

I am not against the ground tap. I do applaude the UOA for
the other changes that it is making to advance ultimate and
if that means the ground tap goes by the way side then so be
it but I think it does serve a purpose.

[RoShamShot]

Reggie Fanelli wrote on Sat, 09 June 2012 07:46

> On Jun 5, 12:20 am, David Landstra

I'm 100% indifferent towards you and the UOA (never tried it
so can't knock it/rep it)

But this proves you gave zero reading comprehension

[Nate]

Quote:

> were they putting the disc into play at the proper spot?

I didn't think so. Maybe they did.

Quote:

> was it frustrating because you were standing there with
> your arms
> down, not paying attention?

No, not exactly. But if the thrower is walking the disc 40
yards down the sideline, I'm not going to mark them the
whole time they're walking just in case they decide to
suddenly turn and throw.

Quote:

> was it frustrating because you think that there should
> be some weird
> unnatural pause before a thrower is allowed to throw?

No, but I think if the marker is set up where they think the
disc should be put into play, the thrower should either put
it into play at that spot, or pause long enough to allow the
marker to adjust to a different spot. They shouldn't just
walk to a nearby spot and suddenly throw.

Quote:

> were you calling travels BASED on the thrower NOT
> putting the disc
> into play at the proper spot?
> and...are you saying that once you starting calling the
> travel/
> violation OF THE THROWER NOT putting the disc into play
> at the proper
> spot....that everything was 'fine' after that?

> ....that...once you started calling the violation of the

> thrower not
> putting the disc into play at the proper spot...that the
> throwers
> started putting the disc into play at the right spot?

Yes.

- Nate

[Matt]

Whether its an official blowing a whistle or the player
tapping it in themselves, there must be a way to signal that
play is starting. How else is the defender to know when to
start stalling, or start marking? How else is a player going
to know where on the field the disc is going to come into
play? How else are players going to know when to time up
their cut?

Since 99% of ultimate is played without officials, the
ground tap has gotta stay.

[anakin gerics]

> I am not against the ground tap. I do applaude the UOA for
> the other changes that it is making to advance ultimate and
> if that means the ground tap goes by the way side then so be
> it but I think it does serve a purpose.

~~~~~~~


---as discussed in this thread......there is NO purpose for the ground
tap.

in UOA games......no one seems to miss the ground tap.

[anakin gerics]

> > were they putting the disc into play at the proper spot?
>
> I didn't think so. Maybe they did.

---then...why were you calling 'travels'???
~~~~~~~~~~

> > was it frustrating because you were standing there with
> > your arms
> > down, not paying attention?
>
> No, not exactly. But if the thrower is walking the disc 40
> yards down the sideline, I'm not going to mark them the
> whole time they're walking just in case they decide to
> suddenly turn and throw.

---right....you're going to be standing at the spot where the disc
should be put into play, right?
so......as they approached and saw you standing there.....did they
fail to accept THAT as the spot where the disc should be put into
play?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> > was it frustrating because you think that there should
> > be some weird
> > unnatural pause before a thrower is allowed to throw?
>
> No, but I think if the marker is set up where they think the
> disc should be put into play, the thrower should either put
> it into play at that spot, or pause long enough to allow the
> marker to adjust to a different spot. They shouldn't just
> walk to a nearby spot and suddenly throw.

---yes, absolutely.
if the marker is there, marking the spot...preparing to mark the
thrower.....the thrower should assume that that's where the disc
should be put into play. yes.
...and to put the disc into play elsewhere....violation.
~~~~~~~~~~~

> > were you calling travels BASED on the thrower NOT
> > putting the disc
> > into play at the proper spot?
> > and...are you saying that once you starting calling the
> > travel/
> > violation OF THE THROWER NOT putting the disc into play
> > at the proper
> > spot....that everything was 'fine' after that?
> > ....that...once you started calling the violation of the
> > thrower not
> > putting the disc into play at the proper spot...that the
> > throwers
> > started putting the disc into play at the right spot?
>
> Yes.

---yes, heck yes, nate.
thanks for the reply.

[anakin gerics]

> Whether its an official blowing a whistle or the player
> tapping it in themselves, there must be a way to signal that
> play is starting.

---huh?!?!?!?!
the "play" starts the second that the disc is pulled to start a
point...right?
i mean.....play continues unless there's a foul or violation.
the "SIGNAL" that play is starting....is the defense pulling the
disc...after that....you're playing ultimate!

there's no 'check' when the disc goes out of bounds...there's no
'check' after a turnover....

there does NOT "need" to be a signal that play is starting.

WHY should there be a signal that play is starting......play DOESN"T
stop in ultimate until there's a violation or a goal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How else is the defender going to know when to

> start stalling, or start marking?

---hold on.....are you kidding?
how do YOU, as a defender, know when to start marking/stalling?
do you NEED to be told by someone?
don't you just start stalling when your man catches the disc?

after a turnover...don't you start stalling when your man picks up the
disc?
if your man catches the disc and momentum carries them out of
bounds....don't you stand at the sideline and start stalling even
before he gets back to the line?
if your man picks up the disc from out of bounds after a
turnover.....don't you start stalling as soon as they set their pivot
on the sideline?

what signal do you need?
aren't you paying attention?
aren't you ready to play D?

is it your opponent's duty to tell you when to start playing D?
do you wait for your opponent before you start playing D?
~~~~~~~~~~

How else is a player going
> to know where on the field the disc is going to come into
> play?

---you've played ultimate before right?
do you pay attention?
~~~~~~~~~~~

How else are players going to know when to time up
> their cut?

---by having practiced with their teams?
by having field sense?
by having timing?
by watching their teammate collect the disc from out of bounds?

matt, have you played before?
~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Since 99% of ultimate is played without officials, the
> ground tap has gotta stay.

----one idiot had a problem once...and invented a dumbassed
rule.....and they've tricked you into thinking it's necessary.
i've played a million games...and have never seen the lack of ground
tap be an issue.
hell...i just played a spring league tournament...didn't see a single
ground tap all weekend.....and there was not a single problem.

how could that be?

[Chad]

Ichiroo, you're doing the same thing I, Dave, and others
were doing. We were assuming that since Gerics's main
objection to the ground tap is that it looks stupid he must
be against ALL ground taps. It seems that's not the case.

You're right that there needs to be some signal that play is
about to begin after a stoppage, and usually that is a
defender disc-check but if the defender is too far away then
the handler may tap the disc to the ground to check it in.
Apparently this instance of ground tapping is not unathletic
nor does it look stupid to Gerics because he does not seem
to object to it.

He's only against ground taps while the disc is still in
play, i.e. turnovers where the disc lies outside of the
playing field or catches where the receiver's momentum takes
them off the playing field*. The disc is live and players,
both offense and defense, should be attentive and playing
normally while the disc returns to the field.

The problems with removing the ground tap in this second
situation are exactly as Nate described:
-the defender needs to shuffle up the sideline in a marking
position while the handler decides where to put the disc
into play else the handler can deceive the defender and get
off an unmarked throw
-the defender's recourse against the above situation is to
call travel. However, they can only call travel once the
disc is thrown so this will lead to a lot of do-overs.
Eventually this might also lead to defenders not stalling
(*or continuing the stall if the receiver caught the disc in
bounds then ran out) then calling 'travel' as soon as a pass
is made claiming the handler was still out and the defender
thought all of the handler's pivoting was just them deciding
where to put the disc into play.

I think that, when the fields aren't lined, removing the
ground tap will lead to more stoppages, more cheating and
more do-overs.

Gerics, you're welcome to reply but it might be a while
before I read it.

[anakin gerics]

> Ichiroo, you're doing the same thing I, Dave, and others
> were doing. We were assuming that since Gerics's main
> objection to the ground tap is that it looks stupid he must
> be against ALL ground taps.

---after a stopppage....there SHOULD be a restart of some sort...yes.
after a foul or violation...yes....some sort of CHECK to restart play.
Defense set....3-2-1...DISC(tap by the marker.....or with no marker a
nice verbal cue)
yes.

the leaning down and tapping the disc on the ground after bringing the
disc from out of bounds or from in the endzone....dumbest rule to
force on a thrower possible...unless the changed it to a spin turn
prior to throwing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> You're right that there needs to be some signal that play is
> about to begin after a stoppage, and usually that is a
> defender disc-check but if the defender is too far away then
> the handler may tap the disc to the ground to check it in.
> Apparently this instance of ground tapping is not unathletic
> nor does it look stupid to Gerics because he does not seem
> to object to it.

---well....i find it retarded and prefer simply being verbal and
announcing....
DEFENSE SET?......3-2-1.....and maybe a tiny little disc pump/wave/
wrist snap/....
but i ain't leanin' all the way to the ground for that
either.......know why.....?
because the marker ain't leaning down to drag his fingers on the
ground...rather, he's approaching with arms wide and high playing D.
and no thrower should have to lean down while the defender is playing
tough D.
~~~~~~~~~~~

> He's only against ground taps while the disc is still in
> play,

---while the disc is live....correct.
if the D can be moving around.....no thrower should have to lean down
and put themselves at a disadvantage.
~~~~~~~~~~

i.e. turnovers where the disc lies outside of the
> playing field or catches where the receiver's momentum takes
> them off the playing field*. The disc is live and players,
> both offense and defense, should be attentive and playing
> normally while the disc returns to the field.

--yeah....no useless senseless leaning down by the thrower to put
himself in an unathletic disadvantageous position for no reason other
than to tap the disc on the ground while the D is marking and
stalling.
~~~~~~~~~~

> The problems with removing the ground tap in this second
> situation are exactly as Nate described:
> -the defender needs to shuffle up the sideline in a marking
> position while the handler decides where to put the disc
> into play else the handler can deceive the defender and get
> off an unmarked throw

----what's the problem?
you TRY to describe a problem.....but you FAIL to do so.
two cones...make a line.
be at the line.
when the thrower doesn't GO THERE.......violation/travel.
the ground tap isn't going to miraculously PUT the thrower in the
right spot.
if they lean down and tap the disc 2 yards off the field...or two
yards inside the field....of 2 yards short or in advance of where the
disc should be put into play.....violation/travel.
the ground tap DOESN'T correct an INCORRECT spot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

> -the defender's recourse against the above situation is to
> call travel. However, they can only call travel once the
> disc is thrown so this will lead to a lot of do-overs.

---HUH?
since when does a thrower have to wait for a throw....to call travel?
certainly that's not a new rule i've missed.

is that ANOTHER reason why you 'lean down disc tap supporters' LOVE
the stupidest rule in sports so much?....because you THINK you can't
say the word "travel or violation" until the disc is thrown?

if the thrower ain't in the right spot.....it's an immediate
violation...so that's when you'd call it.
NOT...after they've thrown the disc.

'they can only call travel once the disc is thrown'.....is NOT the
fact, jack.
~~~~~~~~~~~

> Eventually this might also lead to defenders not stalling
> (*or continuing the stall if the receiver caught the disc in
> bounds then ran out) then calling 'travel' as soon as a pass
> is made claiming the handler was still out and the defender
> thought all of the handler's pivoting was just them deciding
> where to put the disc into play.

---eventually......thoughts like this one above....is going to make
everyone stupider.....like those of you with gps on your windshield.

if ya try to make up weird instances like this, that don't happen,
that rarely happen, that aren't within the rules already.....you're
already LOST....and you're hatin' it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

> I think that, when the fields aren't lined, removing the
> ground tap will lead to more stoppages, more cheating and
> more do-overs.

---well...you can 'think' that in one hand...and poopie in the other
and see which fills up faster.
i've played on a ton of unlined fields.....and have never ground
tapped....and have never made anyone else ground tap.....and have
never had this problem.
AND...i've been on THE TWO....SINGLE MOST....TRAVEL CALLING teams in
the history of college ultimate(UNCW Seamen/ECU Irates in the mid 90s)
i FEEL STRONGLY....that i'm an expert.
we never had this problem....and the ground tap wouldn't have fixed it
if we did.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Gerics, you're welcome to reply but it might be a while
> before I read it.

---i don't really care when you read the reply....as long as i know
that your reply and thoughts....are being corrected for everyone else
to read....BY ME.

[Chad]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that you can't call
travel until they throw. I was referring to the situation in
which the player with the disc is walking around the
sideline trying to decide where to put the disc in play. You
can't call travel until you know they've put it into play in
the wrong spot, and if they are trying to get off a sneaky
throw then you don't know it's in play until it's been
thrown.

I know you are infallible but I'm not very good at knowing
exactly whether or not I'm on a line when I'm standing
between two cones swiveling my head back and forth. I can
get within a couple feet but never exact. I've definitely
seen other people have this problem too. Also, discs don't
usually travel in a straight line. Even if you think you
have no problem knowing the exact spot, you must admit it's
possible for 2 players on opposite teams to have different
ideas about where a disc should be put back into play.

Anyway, the fields are often lined when the game matters.
Teams don't plan their offense around deceiving the defense
about where to put the disc into play. It's not a big deal.
I'm just hesitant to recommend getting rid of a rule that
might lead to more calls or do-overs.

Gerics, since you're the most vocal about this, what do you
think about revising your argument a bit? Whenever someone
says the ground tap is necessary for indicating where to put
the disc into play, you can tell them that it isn't
necessary because all that is required is for the offense to
pay attention to where the defense thinks the disc should be
put into play, otherwise the defense will call travel.
People will realize that this is basically how it works now
anyway and it'll save them from reading pages of your
ranting in search of that one insightful gem (the exchange
between you and Nate).

[anakin gerics]

> Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that you can't call
> travel until they throw. I was referring to the situation in
> which the player with the disc is walking around the
> sideline trying to decide where to put the disc in play. You
> can't call travel until you know they've put it into play in
> the wrong spot, and if they are trying to get off a sneaky
> throw then you don't know it's in play until it's been
> thrown.

----i've played a ton......and i can't even picture this situation.
"walking around trying to decide where to put the disc in play"??????
walking around what?
isn't the marker more than likely standing right at the spot?
the marker usually stands at the spot where the disc went out, right?
or...someone is saying....'what's the spot?' or 'where'd the disc go
out?'....and people are pointing and standing there marking the spot.

if they're trying to get off a 'sneaky' throw.....doesn't the
marker...or SOMEONE in the game SEE that they're in the wrong spot?
does leaning down in the wrong spot to tap the disc on the ground MAKE
the thrower in the RIGHT spot?......no.
so what the hell does the tap do?
nothing.
it doesn't MAKE the spot correct.
it SHOULDN'T tell the D to start playing D.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> I know you are infallible but I'm not very good at knowing
> exactly whether or not I'm on a line when I'm standing
> between two cones swiveling my head back and forth.

---so....tapping the disc on the ground miraculously erases your
inability to find the sideline?
no.

WITHOUT a ground tap....are you automatically 3 yards off the field or
3 yards ON the field?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can
> get within a couple feet but never exact. I've definitely
> seen other people have this problem too.

---so....does the ground tap SOLVE your inability, and those like you,
to place your pivot foot on the line?
does the ground tap somehow help you land your pivot foot on the line?
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, discs don't
> usually travel in a straight line. Even if you think you
> have no problem knowing the exact spot, you must admit it's
> possible for 2 players on opposite teams to have different
> ideas about where a disc should be put back into play.

---sure......and what you're saying....is that by tapping the disc on
the ground....they've agreed?
or....one of the two has agreed to allow the other to put the disc
into play at the WRONG spot?

what's the dumb comment about the disc not traveling in a straight
line all about?
straight, curved, zig zag, loop d loop....the path of the disc
crossing the sideline is where the disc is put back into play.

i've been one of the most controversial players over the last 20
years......and i've NEVER had a problem with where the disc went out.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Anyway, the fields are often lined when the game matters.
> Teams don't plan their offense around deceiving the defense
> about where to put the disc into play. It's not a big deal.
> I'm just hesitant to recommend getting rid of a rule that
> might lead to more calls or do-overs.

----i'm sorry.....HOW are there going to be more do-overs without the
ground tap.
i see a ground tap about 7% of the time(and 100% of those 7%, it looks
dumb as hell and means nothing)......where are all these 'do overs'
going to come from?
if the thrower puts the disc into play at the wrong place....ground
tap or not...violation.
if the thrower ground taps in the wrong place....violation...do over.
if the thrower doesn't ground tap...in the wrong
place...violation...do over.
the GROUND TAP....doesn't MAKE or erase 'do overs'
i've seen more god damned DO OVERS when dumbasses call....'violation,
you failed to ground tap' in the last year than i've seen problems
about 'putting the disc into play at the wrong spot' in 21 years.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Gerics, since you're the most vocal about this, what do you
> think about revising your argument a bit? Whenever someone
> says the ground tap is necessary for indicating where to put
> the disc into play, you can tell them that it isn't
> necessary because all that is required is for the offense to
> pay attention to where the defense thinks the disc should be
> put into play, otherwise the defense will call travel.

---how about abolishing a dumb rule that doesn't help the game, and
ONLY puts the thrower at a momentary disadvantage?
i suppose you're trying to be cute, or something.....but it ain't
workin'.

HOLD ON....you're saying......that the reason for the ground
tap.....is to 'indicate where to put the disc into play'?????
the ground tap.....indicates....where to put the disc into play.
you're saying....that the thrower should be tapping the ground where
they are going to put their pivot foot?
that's extra dumb.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

> People will realize that this is basically how it works now
> anyway and it'll save them from reading pages of your
> ranting in search of that one insightful gem (the exchange
> between you and Nate).

---the one insightful gem doesn't even need to be searched for.
abolish the ground tap...because it is senseless, useless and has not
purpose and does not improve the game.....and all the while...it puts
the thrower at a disadvantage.

as for ranting....i don't know what that means......i don't feel like
i'm ranting....
i feel like i'm educating a bunch of you nit wits that are tricked
into leaning down and tapping the disc on the ground for no reason,
just because one ding dong upa rule dipshit thought it'd be a cool
addition to ultimate.

[Hank C]

#everything_thats_wrong_with_RSD

[anakin gerics]

> #everything_thats_wrong_with_RSD
~~~~~~~

----dorkie posts like this from horrible southwest observers?

[anakin gerics]

On Jun 11, 6:35 pm, Hank C <hank.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
> #everything_thats_wrong_with_RSD
~~~~~~~~


---psst...try some english to express what you're thinking.
otherwise....simply don't post.

[anakin gerics]

> #everything_thats_wrong_with_RSD
~~~~~~~~

---what is?
killer discussion about a horrible rule that everyone should fight to
abolish?

get on board everyone!
don't allow yourself to be forced to lean down and tap the disc on the
ground while your marker is stalling!!!
abolish the ground tap

[Oldandslow]

anakin gerics wrote on Tue, 12 June 2012 17:41

Why would my marker be stalling when I haven't established a
pivot? Sounds like a marking violation to me.

[JThib]

Oldand slow wrote on Tue, 12 June 2012 21:06

> Why would my marker be stalling when I haven't
> established a pivot? Sounds like a marking violation to
> me.

A defender who is within 3 meters of the point at which the
disc is to be put into play may begin stalling the thrower
immediately upon the thrower having gained possession of the
disc, before the thrower establishes a pivot.

[Oldandslow]

Not in the case of an OB turnover.

[Michael Logan]

Oldand slow wrote on Wed, 13 June 2012 10:07

> Not in the case of an OB turnover.

If the disc is caught OB, is this the case?

[Oldandslow]

Per XIV.A.2: "Only the marker (II.K) may initiate or
continue a stall count, and may do so anytime a thrower has
possession of a disc that is live or in play. However,
directly after a turnover or when putting the pull into play
the stall may not be initiated before a pivot is
established, unless delay of game or pre-stall rules
(XIII.A.3, XIII.A.4, XIII.A.5 or VI.B.5.d) apply."

No, you may not stall count a defender (now thrower) who
gains possession of an OB disc until the defender has
established a pivot; which in the case of an OB possession
includes them setting their pivot at the appropriate spot
and touching the disc to the ground. Same thing goes for an
endzone possession where the thrower chooses to take the
disc to the goal line. (With the exception of the
Pre-Stall/Delay of game rules)

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Why would my marker be stalling when I haven't established a
> pivot?  Sounds like a marking violation to me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---WHOA...hold on now....
NOW we have TWO slow downs simply to put the disc back into play after
retrieving it from out of bounds?

NOW...you're saying....the thrower has to establish his pivot AND lean
down into an unathletic position in order to tap the disc onto the
ground.......AND the marker has to wait until the thrower stands
straight up again BEFORE starting to stall?????

......because.....all i ever see......is the marker starting the count
the instant the thrower is at the proper spot.....the marker counts
while the thrower is leaning down....and is on TWO by the time the
thrower stands up straight and is ready to play.

ARE YOU SUGGESTING.....that the thrower establish a pivot foot, THEN
lean down and tap the disc on the ground......AND then the marker tap
the disc and THEN start stalling?

i mean.....the marker is always on two before the thrower stands
up....and you're suggesting that the marker NOW WAIT until the thrower
is standing back up?.....'cause i ain't seen that yet.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Why would my marker be stalling when I haven't established a
> pivot?  Sounds like a marking violation to me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


----if a RECEIVER has caught the disc and run out of bounds...the
marker is already counting as long as he(the marker) is in the right
spot where the disc will be put back into play.
SO...the marker is counting.......
BUT....the thrower STILL has to get back to the line and lean down to
tap the disc(for some senseless reason).....
are you suggesting that the marker STOP counting while the thrower
lean down and tap the disc in?

personally....i'd just ABOLISH THE GROUND TAP and keep everyone equal.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Not in the case of an OB turnover.

~~~~~~~~

---ok....different instance than a receiver who runs out of bounds
after a catch......
the marker can't stall until there's a pivot foot established,
sure....
but once the pivot is established....then the thrower has to lean down
and senselessly tap the disc on the ground.
the marker is going to start stalling as soon as the pivot is
set....and he's gonna be at 2 before the thrower is standing back up.

don't believe me?
i've been doing the studies.....

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Why would my marker be stalling when I haven't established a
> pivot?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i'd ask.....
WHY would the thrower be leaning down to tap the disc on the ground
for no reason AFTER establishing a pivot IF the marker is free to
start stalling?

[Michael Logan]

Oldand slow wrote on Wed, 13 June 2012 12:31

Okay, but one could start stalling if somebody's momentum
carried them OB after catching an offensive pass. Correct?

[Ryan Thompson]

Yes, and similarly if someone catches a pass (on offense) and their
momentum carries them into the endzone.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Okay, but one could start stalling if somebody's momentum
> carried them OB after catching an offensive pass. Correct?

~~~~~~~~

---the marker's stalling....and the thrower's hustling back to the
line....and then has to lean down into an unathletic position to tap
the disc on the ground while the count keeps going....

[ndacey123]

Reggie Fanelli wrote on Wed, 13 June 2012 12:53

How unathletic can you be? You ground tap has you establish
your pivot, showing the defender that he/she can begin
stalling.

The defender starts (says) "stalling" and I am looking
upfield as they are saying "one".

And from the defenders standpoint, the groundtap is
important for players coming from out of bounds. As a
defender, I don't want to be watching the offender's feet as
he gets to the line. With the ground tap, I can simply see
the disc being tapped in play, and I know there is no
violation.

There shouldn't be an issue for either player. Unless, of
course, you have a bad back and it takes more time than most
people to rise; in which case, you probably shouldn't be
playing ultimate as seriously as you feel the need to
discuss these types of matters on RSD.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> How unathletic can you be?

~~~~~~~~~~~~

---I, personally....CAN'T be unathletic.
i'm quite athletic.

however....leaning down, stooping over, placing the edge of the object
that we throw to one another on the ground, and then having to stand
back up....is an unathletic position.

stooped over...with one arm way down to the ground.....simply IS....an
unathletic position.
one that no "thrower" should ever find themself in.

no bad assed, agile, butter spreading faker...while getting ready to
throw....leans down and taps the disc on the ground.



I, CAN'T be unathletic.....no matter how hard i try.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> You ground tap as you establish

> your pivot, showing the defender that he/she can begin
> stalling.
> The defender starts (says) "stalling" and I am looking
> upfield as they are saying "one".

---i always see and hear the marker say 'stalling1' as the thrower
steps on the spot...and they're always on '2' when the thrower is
standing back up straight.
i've watched a lot.
i pay pretty good attention.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> And from the defenders standpoint, the groundtap is
> important for players coming from out of bounds.

---hold on.....i predict that you're about to give a "reason" that is
a horrible reason....a faux reason...a reason that someone impressed
upon you....
~~~~~~~~~~~~

As a
> defender, I don't want to be watching the offender's feet as
> he gets to the line. With the ground tap, I can simply see
> the disc being tapped in play, and I know there is no
> violation.

---you can't watch the defender's feet...but you can watch him tap the
disc on the ground?

you can't tell when a thrower has a pivot foot?
you can't tell when a thrower's foot steps on a spot directly in front
of you?
you can't judge when a thrower STEPS on the ground in front of you?

i have to reverse the question......'how UNATHLETIC are YOU?!"
how unathletic are YOU to not be able to use periferal vision to see
when a thrower STEPS on the ground and begins pivoting.

i've played more than 20 years.....and i can ALWAYS tell when a
thrower walks up and sets a pivot foot and begins pivoting or stepping
into a throw.
i'd ask...what's YOUR problem?
how unathletic are YOU?


and...HOLD UP.....you can tell....JUST BY A GROUND TAP, that there's
NO VIOLATION?
you seem to be saying...that JUST BECAUSE THERE IS a ground
tap.....that there's no violation.
a ground tap neither MAKES nor ELIMINATES a violation.

the thrower can tap the ground(damn that's stupid)......and BE
violating.

if a thrower ground taps....but they're standing 3 steps inside the
sideline....are you so unathletic that you CAN'T call
"violation"...because ALL you see is the ground tap?
come on dude.....
you're better than that!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> There shouldn't be an issue for either player.

----the issue....is that there's NO GOOD reason to put the thrower in
a leaned over position.
there's a million lame reasons from a million lame ultimate players as
to why the ground tap is soooooo needed.
most of you can't even agree WHY you're FORCED to lean down and tap

the disc on the ground.

NONE of the reasons why ya'll think it's soooo necessary....are good,
athletic reasons to have it.

ie....
so the d knows the disc is in. hey einstein, pay attention.
so you know there's no violation. hey....the ground tap doesn't
negate a violation.
i'm not watching the thrower's feet. so what...if you don't know
where he's putting the disc into play, why should he ground tap?
because there needs to be 'something different' about putting the disc
into play from a boundary line. why?...if you're putting the disc
into play at the right place?
so the O knows to start cutting. good...then each O can come up with
their OWN signal to start their possession.

i mean....there's simply NO reason for the ground tap.
it doesn't solve or negate or erase anything....
it does not make the sport better.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unless, of
> course, you have a bad back and it takes more time than most
> people to rise; in which case, you probably shouldn't be
> playing ultimate as seriously as you feel the need to
> discuss these types of matters on RSD.

---as a matter of fact.....
i won college nationals in back to back years...and then broke 6
vertebre in my back...and won a third championship back, to back, to
broken back, to back....and participated at several club championships
and played plenty of club ultimate....
so....i have a bad back....but not bad enough to keep me from STILL
shredding.
and not bad enough to prevent me from leaning down to tap the disc on
the ground and standing up to throw the disc anywhere i want to.

and as for feeling the need to discuss these types of matters on
rsd.........i've written the UOA Laws of Ultimate...and officiate a
great deal....and host lots of tournaments....and feel strongly that
i've been paying attention long enough and well enough to KNOW a
dumbassed useless requirement for a thrower when i see it.

i discuss.....because i know how it should be.
get with it.

abolish the ground tap.

[Reggie Fanelli]

On Jun 4, 6:10 pm, David Landstra <dbl...@mst.edu> wrote:
> Congrats UOA no ground taps. I think everyone that reads RSD
> knows you don't use ground taps and could care less.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---hey david......just so you know.....
when you posted this...
there were like.....12 reads of this thread.
no....there are nearly 4500.....

curious, huh?
you mentioned that no one could care less.......
tons of replies....apparently...tons of reads.

it's possible......that folks care about the UOA and their laws of
ultimate.
and maybe.....some folks are DOWN WITH IT.....abolishing the ground
tap!

[Reggie Fanelli]

On Jun 4, 10:07 pm, Alex <alexjaks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think everyone knows that he's not going to comment unless
> it's to promote the UOA and thus automatically skips over
> his ---comments...
~~~~~~~~~~

---alex.....are the 4500 readers of this thread all skipping over my
comments?
i don't think so....
and if YOU think so.....
....guess again!

[nealon]

Reggie Fanelli wrote on Wed, 13 June 2012 19:49

> >however....leaning down, stooping over, placing the
> edge of the object
> that we throw to one another on the ground, and then
> having to stand
> back up....is an unathletic position.
>
> stooped over...with one arm way down to the
> ground.....simply IS....an
> unathletic position.

http://blog.justsports.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Steelers-offensive-linemen.jpg

yup super unathletic
--
----------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7M7d8u40I4

[Oldandslow]

Gerics is so much of a fan of only doing athletic things on
the field that as a player he will never pick up a disc off
the ground. Does the UOA allow players to make this
unathletic move, or does the observer do it for them so the
athletes don't have to? Seems like the kind of thing that
would separate the UOA from the USAU, removing such
unathletic motions from the players and giving them to the
observers.

On another issue, in the USAU after a turnover OB or in the
endzone, the marker is not allowed to begin the stall until
the disc is touched to the ground. If the marker is already
stalling when the disc is touched to the ground, that is a
marking violation. Gerics used to be a UPA observer, either
he knows this is the rule, or he's a bad observer.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> http://blog.justsports.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Steelers-offens...
>
> yup super unathletic
~~~~~~~~~~


---those guys are getting ready to dribble between their legs, reverse
dribble, drop back, spin around a defender, scramble, throw a deep
shot to a streaking receiver, perform a double cut on their defender,
sprint and layout for a long ball, cross the ball in front of the
goal, spin and leap and scissor kick a goal......

oh hold on......they're getting low to take the legs out from under
another lineman.

dude......come on.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Gerics is so much of a fan of only doing athletic things on
> the field that as a player he will never pick up a disc off
> the ground.

---guess again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does the UOA allow players to make this
> unathletic move, or does the observer do it for them so the
> athletes don't have to?

---why would an official grab the frisbee and tap it on the ground?
i mean...it's a dumb thing for an association to force its athletes to
do....it'd be extra dumb for the official to do it!
~~~~~~~~~

 Seems like the kind of thing that
> would separate the UOA from the USAU, removing such
> unathletic motions from the players and giving them to the
> observers.

---the UOA official is visually counting the stall....
maybe that's a version of the ground tap....but the players aren't
watching us for the count, they aren't starting their cuts on the
officials count, they don't rely on the officials count to KNOW that
the disc is in play, they don't reply on the officials chop to have
put the disc in at the right spot, they don't rely on the officials
count for the thrower to have his foot at the line....
the officials count isn't 'for' any of the reasons that folks 'make
up' for the ground tap....

there are plenty of positives that separate UOA officiating and rule
enforcement and simple playing of the game from the upsa...

[Oldandslow]

When you say: "stooped over...with one arm way down to the
ground.....simply IS....an
unathletic position.
one that no "thrower" should ever find themself in." it
sounds like you're saying it's unreasonable for a thrower to
have to pick a disc up off the ground. If that's the case,
the UOA observers should be the ones to pick up the disc and
hand it to the thrower on every disc that ends up on the
turf. If you're not having your observers do this task then
you're expecting the thrower to be "stooped over...with one
arm way down to the ground.........an

unathletic position.
one that no "thrower" should ever find themself in."

Which is it? Does the UOA demand throwers to be in an
"unathletic position", or will the UOA observers begin to
pick up the disc and hand it to the thrower so that the
thrower may maintain an athletic and dignified posture?

[keg]

The simple solution is to never get conned into handling. That way you never have to bend over to pick up that pesky disc.

[mvuong]

Reggie Fanelli wrote on Thu, 14 June 2012 05:55

> >
> ---those guys are getting ready to dribble between their
> legs, reverse
> dribble, drop back, spin around a defender, scramble,
> throw a deep
> shot to a streaking receiver, perform a double cut on
> their defender,
> sprint and layout for a long ball, cross the ball in
> front of the
> goal, spin and leap and scissor kick a goal......
>
> oh hold on......they're getting low to take the legs out
> from under
> another lineman.
>
> dude......come on.

I've never actually understood why they get into this
position for pass blocking too. Lean forward just to stand
back up and back pedal? Eh, it works for them.

[nealon]

Reggie Fanelli wrote on Thu, 14 June 2012 07:55

> ---those guys are getting ready to dribble between their
> legs, reverse
> dribble, drop back, spin around a defender, scramble,
> throw a deep
> shot to a streaking receiver, perform a double cut on
> their defender,
> sprint and layout for a long ball, cross the ball in
> front of the
> goal, spin and leap and scissor kick a goal......
>
> oh hold on......they're getting low to take the legs out
> from under
> another lineman.
>
> dude......come on.

So we are in agreement. Very unathletic.
--
----------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7M7d8u40I4

[Kebo]

Quote:

> Gerics is so much of a fan of only doing athletic things
> on the field that as a player he will never pick up a disc
> off the ground.

That's an absurd analogy. Next you'll say that lying in bed
sleeping is an athletic position because everyone has to do
it sometime. You know what he meant, and you think that
nitpicking helps you. You should avoid being off-balance or
in un-athletic positions as much as possible. This is true
of pretty much any sport. The point he is making is that
there is no reason to put yourself in an unathletic position
in this situation. You have yet to refute that.

Quote:

> On another issue, in the USAU after a turnover OB or in
> the endzone, the marker is not allowed to begin the stall
> until the disc is touched to the ground. If the marker is
> already stalling when the disc is touched to the ground,
> that is a marking violation. Gerics used to be a UPA
> observer, either he knows this is the rule, or he's a bad
> observer.

Not based on the applicable rules:

1. A disc is live when players are allowed to move and the
disc is subject to a turnover, but the thrower cannot make a
legal pass (e.g., walking the disc to the spot where it is
to be put into play). For a live disc to be put into play,
the thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot
on the field, touch the disc to the ground, and put the disc
into play. This applies in your scenario. Disc is live.

2. After establishing a pivot at the appropriate spot on the
field, the thrower must touch the disc to the ground before
putting it into play
3.For a live disc to be put into play, the thrower must
establish a pivot at the appropriate spot on the field,
touch the disc to the ground, and put it into play.

4.Only the marker (II.K) may initiate or continue a stall

count, and may do so anytime a thrower has possession of a
disc that is live or in play. However, directly after a
turnover or when putting the pull into play the stall may
not be initiated before a pivot is established

You'll note that it doesn't say anywhere in the rules for
marking that you have to wait for the ground tap. You only
have to wait for the pivot to be established, which has to
be done prior to any ground tap by the thrower.

The conclusion based on the rules is that the thrower is
required to engage in a separate action after the defense is
allowed to begin stalling. Many don't, but that doesn't mean
they can't.

[Reggie Fanelli]

On Jun 14, 1:00 pm, Oldandslow <ebil...@aol.com> wrote:
> When you say:  "stooped over...with one arm way down to the
> ground.....simply IS....an
> unathletic position.
> one that no "thrower" should ever find themself in." it
> sounds like you're saying it's unreasonable for a thrower to
> have to pick a disc up off the ground.

---it ain't gonna float up to 'em.
but once it's picked up....there's no GOOD REASON...to have to lean
back down to tap the disc on the ground just to let everyone know that
the game has resumed.
~~~~~~~~~~~

 If that's the case,
> the UOA observers should be the ones to pick up the disc and
> hand it to the thrower on every disc that ends up on the
> turf.

---that too, would interfere with the game as it SHOULD be played.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 If you're not having your observers

---we don't have observers, unless they are fans watching from the
sideline.
we have officials.
~~~~~~~~~~~

do this task then
> you're expecting the thrower to be "stooped over...with one
> arm way down to the ground.........an
> unathletic position.
> one that no "thrower" should ever find themself in."

---well...they can't throw a pass from picking the disc up from out of
bounds, can they?
they have to wait until they have a pivot foot established at the
proper spot.
so....you want throwers to lean down a whole bunch of times, huh?
lean down to pick up the disc....and then lean down to tap the disc on
the ground for no reason at all.
and curiously....have you given a GOOD reason for the ground tap yet?
don't think so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Which is it?  Does the UOA demand throwers to be in an
> "unathletic position", or will the UOA observers begin to
> pick up the disc and hand it to the thrower so that the
> thrower may maintain an athletic and dignified posture?

---we don't "demand" anything of throwers.
we certainly don't DEMAND them to lean down and tap the disc on the
ground for no reason while the stall count reached 2 or 3.
and...so you know....that's the case for some odd folks who INSIST on
tapping the disc on the ground in UOA action....the stall's on 2
before they stand up.
...same is true for 'regular' ole ultimate.
stalls at 2 when the thrower stands up.
senseless.

abolish the ground tap!

[Kebo]

korians1 wrote on Thu, 14 June 2012 14:31

> So we are in agreement. Very unathletic.

It is an unathletic position. It is a picture of phenomenal
athletes in an unathletic position. By the same token,
Gerics may not always be pleasant, he may be a jerk, but
that doesn't make him wrong on this issue. You and others
are trying to prove him wrong because you disagree with him
on other issues, but he is correct here. Your statement is
correct. You're trying to be clever and failing at that, but
inadvertantly being correct.
Just because an athlete does something, does not make it an
athletic position.

An athletic position is one where you are balanced, able to
move in many (ideally all) directions. Having your hand on
the ground as in the picture makes it easier to move
forward, but limits your ability to move in any other
direction. Since their primary function is to quickly move
forward, they lean forward.

There's a reason why the linebackers and defensive backs
don't have their hand on the ground. They need to be able to
act in different directions based on what the offense does,
and the defensive scheme. Thus, they are in 'athletic
positions'.

[Reggie Fanelli]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---hubba whaaaa????????













or.....that's what i'm sayin'.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Gerics may not always be pleasant, he may be a jerk, but
> that doesn't make him wrong on this issue.

~~~~~~~~~

---if ya think i'm unpleasant...you're readin' everything the wrong
way.
....and...i ain't been wrong about an issue yet.

so.....take your pick.

[Reggie Fanelli]

You and others
> are trying to prove him wrong because you disagree with him

> on other issues, but he is correct here. You're trying to be clever and failing at that
~~~~~~~~~~~

---besides....always being correct about everything ultimate
related......

....what is the deal with you guys anyway?
why always so mean and trying to start something?
what's your problems?

[Kebo]

Reggie Fanelli wrote on Thu, 14 June 2012 15:38

> > Gerics may not always be pleasant, he may be a jerk,
> > but
> > that doesn't make him wrong on this issue.
> ~~~~~~~~~
>
> ---if ya think i'm unpleasant...you're readin'
> everything the wrong
> way.

> .....and...i ain't been wrong about an issue yet.
>
> so.....take your pick.

It was purely hypothetical...basically, just because THEY
might think you're unpleasant, doesn't make you wrong.

In this case, you're spot on. The ground tap serves no real
purpose.

Even for those saying, 'it lets me know the disc is in
play'...chances are good, it doesn't do that. Your teammate
watching the ground tap and yelling, 'disc in' does that. He
can yell that without a ground tap too.

[Euh]

When you play against MG, you better wear an athletic
support.

[nealon]

Kebo wrote on Thu, 14 June 2012 13:58

> Quote:
> > Gerics is so much of a fan of only doing athletic
> > things on the field that as a player he will never pick
> > up a disc off the ground.
> That's an absurd analogy.

it's more hyperbole than analogy
--
----------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7M7d8u40I4

[nealon]

Kebo wrote on Thu, 14 June 2012 14:10

> You and others are trying to prove him wrong because you
> disagree with him on other issues

that's a bold accusation. got anything to back that up?
i'm not sure where you are getting that from....
--
----------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7M7d8u40I4

[nealon]

Kebo wrote on Thu, 14 June 2012 14:10

> You're trying to be clever

nope. just making a satirical response.

Quote:
> and failing at that

failing at that which I did not attempt... nope.

Quote:
> but inadvertantly being correct.

good one.
--
----------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7M7d8u40I4

[Reggie Fanelli]

> When you play against MG, you better wear an athletic
> support.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

---but be prepared to be faked out of it.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Congrats UOA no ground taps. I think everyone that reads RSD
> knows you don't use ground taps and could care less.
~~~~~~~

---over 4600 reads.....
folks care more than less.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> I think everyone knows that he's not going to comment unless
> it's to promote the UOA and thus automatically skips over
> his ---comments...

---over 4600 reads....not may folks skipping over ---his comments.

Abolish the ground tap!
it's totally unnecessary!

[Euh]

Reggie Fanelli wrote on Thu, 14 June 2012 20:08

Probably 4480 by you alone

[Reggie Fanelli]

> > ---over 4600 reads....not may folks skipping over ---his
> > comments.

> Probably 4480 by you alone

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---guess again.

i'd put money on YOU.

[Reggie Fanelli]

ok......so......it's settled......right?

no need for the ground tap.
it doesn't help the sport.
its useless and senseless.
abolish the ground tap.

[David Landstra]

Stop saying you are leaning down into an nonathletic
position. Adding to the linemen example that you already
shot down. I don't think you have actually played football.
Most of the time the linemen are not getting ready to take
out the other linemens leg, they are getting into a position
that is easier to take off from then a standing position.
You rarely see NFL linemen cut block. And I have also seen
college and professional basketball players slam there hands
on the floor in an effort to pump themselves up and get into
a more athletic position to guard they opponent coming down
the floor. I would argue that standing straight up would be
a more nonathletic position then bending at the knees and
tapping the ground. I have seen numerous handler tap it in
and throw right away without standing up and because they
are in a better position to run break away from their mark
and are open for the next throw.

You might think that the ground tap is a time waste and you
are losing maybe half a stall count in order to tap the
ground but it is not a nonathletic position unless you are
only leaning over with at the waist.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> Stop saying you are leaning down into an nonathletic
> position.

---you're right.....normally i always lean real far down and tap the
disc on the ground before throwing a pass....it's just a little
athletic rhythm that i get into.....
maybe it's some weird ocd i have....before i ever throw anything...i
gotta lean down and tap it on the ground because i know that i can
SPRING up and throw a sweet pass afterwards.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Adding to the linemen example that you already
> shot down.

--why add to it....if it's already been shot down?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't think you have actually played football.

---are you getting ready to tell me that some lineman somewhere surfs
on his off time?
that those guys can run through tires as well as anyone?

curiously....do they have "lineman skills competition" at the nfl pro
bowl game?
~~~~~~~~~~

> Most of the time the linemen are not getting ready to take
> out the other linemens leg, they are getting into a position
> that is easier to take off from then a standing position.

----dude....try a track sprinter....get OFF the linemen.
~~~~~~~~~~~

And I have also seen
> college and professional basketball players slam there hands
> on the floor in an effort to pump themselves up and get into
> a more athletic position to guard they opponent coming down
> the floor.

---are they forced to do so by rule?
once they get back on D...do they have to lean down and smack the
floor to tell the offense that they are ready to play defense...thus
telling the O that it's ok to start their possession?

i'm gonna go out on a crazy limb here and say....that you had it right
the FIRST half of that comment.
they smack the ground.....to pump themselves up.
they smack the floor...and then clap their hands and shout something
like..."come on!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would argue that standing straight up would be
> a more nonathletic position then bending at the knees and
> tapping the ground.

---lord.....are you kidding...
~~~~~~~~~~

I have seen numerous handler tap it in
> and throw right away without standing up and because they
> are in a better position to run break away from their mark
> and are open for the next throw.

---shoot......rules out the window....without consideration of
them....i'd call THAT....unsporting and ultimate-fribee-isly
speaking...unspirited.
that SEEMS like a reason to have to ground tap, and then stand up for
a marker check, followed by a 3-2-1.....followed by the thrower
announcing DISC IS IN PLAY.
better watch out....or all those things are going to be added to the
ground tap....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> You might think that the ground tap is a time waste and you
> are losing maybe half a stall count in order to tap the
> ground but it is not a nonathletic position unless you are
> only leaning over with at the waist.

---so you know....i KNOW that the ground tap is a time waste, an
energy waste, a movement waste, an unnecessary waste of a waste of a
waste.

you can lean down any way ya want...it doesn't make the game
better....it's just a stupid useless addition that some geek came up
with.

[ultimate7]

The good news for those of us in favor of the ground tap is that Mike's strong stance against it probably guarantees it will stay in the rules for the foreseeable future.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> The good news for those of us in favor of the ground tap is that Mike's strong stance against it probably guarantees it will stay in the rules for the foreseeable future.

~~~~~~~~~

---ultimate 7, why do you 'favor' the ground tap....and what do you
'favor' it over?
do you favor leaning down and tapping the disc on the
ground....OVER....placing a pivot foot at the proper spot and simply
playing ultimate in a standing position?
what do you 'favor' the ground tap over?
why do you 'favor' the ground tap over not having to lean down for no
reason?
do YOU need to be signaled when to start playing?
do YOU need someone to tell you to 'start' playing D....when your team
is on D?
do YOU need someone to tell you when to start stalling....because you
don't know when you should?
do YOU think that the ground tap erases all violations when the disc
is put into play at the wrong spot?

why do you 'favor' the ground tap?
what purpose do YOU think it serves?

and so that you remember....the upsa flew me to boulder to tell them
how to best officiate their version of the sport....and they
listened....and made plenty of changes based on my suggestions.....and
i wrote their 'two observer system'
so.......if you think that MY strong stance AGAINST the ground tap as
a reason for it CONTINUING....you might be wrong.
but hell...if you're right....it'll simply remain ONE of the MANY
'better' things about UOA ultimate as compared to stale silly upsa
ultimate.

so....let us know what you favor so much about senselessly leaning
down and tapping the disc on the ground for no reason.

[ultimate7]

I like knowing where the disc is going to be put into play. I think there can often be a gap between the anticipated spots of where the disc will be in play. In the time of the ground tap, I as the defender can make up the one yard and put on a proper mark, rather than having to dispute the exact spot.

In many instances a "defender" check can replace the ground tap.

Obviously if you have a referee/observer indicating the location of a restart, the tap could become unecessary.

[Reggie Fanelli]

> I like knowing where the disc is going to be put into play.

---when don't you know where the disc is going to be put back into
play?
how don't you know where the disc is going to be put back into play?

are you on O or on D when you don't know where the disc is going to be
put back into play?

when the marker is standing at the spot on the line waiting for the
thrower.....do you STILL not know where the disc is going to be put
back into play?

how often do you fail to see where the path of the out of bounds disc
and the sideline cross?

why is it that i've played soooo long....and always seem to know where
the disc should be put back into play...and when it's going to be put
back into play....and when it IS put back into play?
am i the only one paying attention to the game i'm playing?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 I think there can often be a gap between the anticipated spots of
where the disc will be in play.  In the time of the ground tap, I as
the defender can make up the one yard and put on a proper mark, rather
than having to dispute the exact spot.

---so...you allow a violation....because someone leans down and taps
the disc on the ground?
i say.....let's start allowing travels...if the thrower taps the disc
on the ground WHILE traveling.

and......as the defender....would you normally dispute a one pace
difference in interpretation of where the path of the disc crossed the
sideline?
damn....man up and be ready to play d....and when the thrower sets his
pivot....be ready to mark.

seriously...WHAT ARE YOU GUYS SEEING OUT THERE?????
are there throwers retrieving the disc from out of bounds in your
neighborhood.............
SPRINTING up and down the sideline.....faking a pivot foot on the
sideline.....
running back and forth a bit more.....juking and shucking and
jiving.....
and then real quickly lunging a pivot foot to the line to RIP a deep
shot goal?

is that happening ANYWHERE?????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> In many instances a "defender" check can replace the ground tap.

---the defender should NEVER be "GIVEN" a check during the flow of the
offense...for any reason...after a turnover or after momentum carrying
a receiver out of bounds....
~~~~~~~~~

> Obviously if you have a referee/observer indicating the location of a restart, the tap could become unecessary.

---CURRENTLY...without officials or observers or referees....the
ground tap IS unnecessary.
there is NO need for it.
none.
ever.
never.

i COULD come up with 36 personal reasons why i LOVE the ground
tap.....but note are necessary for the game...they don't make the game
better.

[Reggie Fanelli]

someone's shuckin'....
someone's jivin'.....
someone's faking a pivot foot....
sprinting ahead two yards...
faking a pivot foot...
running back four yards...
spin turning....
reverse dribbling...
running to the other sideline...
turning around and running to the other sideline....
doing a cartwheel.....
BAM...quick pivot foot and flick huck up the line for a goal....

TRICKED YOU....into not knowing where the disc was going to be put
back into play!!!!!

GOTCHA!


now...in THIS scenario.....i, as the defending marker....would have
simply gone and stood where the path of the disc crossed the
sideline....and waited for the thrower to set his pivot foot.