Information for beginners
Justin
summer league team.
I have read the ultimate handbook, and was wondering what other
resources are out there. Any general info is good, but one issue I
would like to focus on is: the basics of the stack ... and why having 4
people cut at the same time is really bad.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Justin R.
www.seacoastultimate.com
Handy
them try it and see if the handler can get the disc off.
Lesson learned.
Besides that try these sites from some other stuff:
http://ultyplaybook.freeservers.com/beginner/all.html
http://www.menalto.com/ultimate/play_list.php
Good luck.
-Handy-
fph
>
> I have read the ultimate handbook, and was wondering what other
> resources are out there. Any general info is good, but one issue I
> would like to focus on is: the basics of the stack ... and why having 4
> people cut at the same time is really bad.
>
Forget the stack.
Check out www.z-boyz.org
Mortakai
"nospam" refers to inbound rather than not outbound traffic.
Justin
works, they don't get it. When you have 3 experienced players and 4
total newbies.
Frank: I would love to teach them all sorts of offenses and defenses.
But we need to walk before we can run. Half the team doesn't know what
a force is yet. If they can learn the stack, that will help them play
defense against it.
fph
The UPA just put out a promotional video for beginners and it just sent the
sport back ten years. Do you have a problem with me trying to balance out
what is being taught?
fph
> Frank: I would love to teach them all sorts of offenses and defenses.
> But we need to walk before we can run. Half the team doesn't know what
> a force is yet. If they can learn the stack, that will help them play
> defense against it.
I've taught a lot of 14-15 year old kids this year in various P.E. classes
over the past 9 months.
The first throw I teach them in the first day of class is the righty lift.
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/fhuguenard/rightylift.htm
The second throw I teach them is the lefty lift.
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/fhuguenard/leftylift.htm
The first drill I teach them is the triangle back pivot drill
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/fhuguenard/TriangleBackPivot.htm
This is a twist on the classic marker drill in that it has two receivers
instead of one and it teaches throwers to have their back to the marker
instead of facing the marker. Throws to the left are left handed and throws
to the right are right handed.
This is teaching players to 'walk before they run' and teaches them to play
unselfishly. Having them play with their back to the marker ensures that
they will incorporate some negative aspect to their game and teaches them to
not try to throw directly through the marker but rather use both hands to
fake with and throw past him and makes the game more fun and helps new
players be more effective.
Generally speaking, by the end of two weeks of PE class, at least 40% of the
students are throwing backhands with either hand and have most kids have
completion percentages of over 80% (which for anyone who has taught high
school freshman knows it quite high after only two weeks of practice).
On the third day we usually began to play games. In one of my classes, on
this first day of scrimmage, a 14 year old kid named Dean threw both a 20
yard lefty no look high release and a 20 yard righty no look high release
both for scores in his first game of ultimate. He had no previous
experience with Frisbee. Needless to say I was blown away and found the
experience tremendously rewarding.
Beyond that, I really don't teach much structure. More philosophical stuff
like have a good positive/negative balance, keep the disc moving, keep the
offense spread out (no 'bunch-ball', a kids soccer term; obviously
anti-stack), take the easy throw, communicate, don't focus on the endzone,
etc. That kind of stuff. Let them figure out how they want to play. It's
just a game. This empowers them and encourages creativity and
individuality.
I would never teach the stack. If you want them to walk before they run,
teach them how to throw first but teaching them the stack is going to teach
some really bad habits which are probably going to be hard to unlearn.
The stack is easy to play defense against and they can figure that out on
their own and with a little coaching.
Justin
at the motion offense part, I kinda glazed over because it was more
info than we were ready for.
Can you explain to me one thing about the 4 person drill... how does
putting your back to the mark work? If I have my back to the marker,
isn't it harder to break force/see incoming cuts?
Jerm
circumstances should you start teaching ultimate from the Frank
Hugenard school of circus sideshow antics.
As for the basics and value of the stack, that should become apparent
even to beginners in short order. But you can actually drill on the
fundamentals of maintaining a stack.
Put seven O players on the field, 5 in a stack, and two handlers back
near the disc. Start with handler 1 with the disc near one sideline.
The stack should be angled somewhat towards the disc, with first person
in the stack 5 yards upfield or so. Cuts come from the back. Handler
throws to cutter making a comeback cut (say 10 yard throw), and the
thing you're teaching is that the stack needs to shuffle downfield 10
yards to maintain field postition relative to disc. Cutter looks
downfield for a second, then dumps to handler 1, who throws a big swing
pass to handler 2. Cutter filters back to front of stack when done.
Stack must now adjust angle, so that it's angled at the new postition
of the disc, and if the swing was slightly upfield or downfield, the
stack should respond to that as well. Next person cuts from the back of
the stack, timed to be a continue off of swing pass. Stack adjusts,
cutter dumps, handler swings, etc.
This looks a lot like a standard endzone drill, except that the stack
is constantly repositioning itself in field position and angle in
response to the disc's motion. Also, you only have seven people doing
it at a time, to be more game-analagous. Try doing it once as
described, then add 3/4 speed defense, the full speed D, then
scrimmage.
You can work out a similar drill that adds a focus on clearing. Replace
the comeback cut from the back of the stack, with a fake-out-and-back
in from the front. Then the look downfield, and the dump, but this
time, as soon as the dump goes, cutter cuts (clears) deep, all the way
(at least) to the front cone of the endzone (deeper as the stack
advances), and then cycles back in to the back of stack. The stack,
meanwhile, is making the same positioning adjustments as before.
Same drill can be further modified to include continue cuts; the stack
adjustments become faster and more critical (accomplished more with
clears and cuts deep).
In all cases, try that sequence: just O, then 3/4 D (just a couple of
reps), then full speed, then scrimmage. That's a good way to establish
a continuity between the work on fundamentals, through its
implementation in a live game.
Good luck.
Jeremy
fph
> Can you explain to me one thing about the 4 person drill... how does
> putting your back to the mark work?
btw-this 4 person drill has given me the most powerful results for
beginners.
The way I teach the drill is I have the thrower look over one shoulder to
one receiver, swivel their heads around and look at the other receiver,
swivel back one more time and then begin to start thinking about throwing.
What they find out by doing this is that the marker has to do way more work
to defend the throw than the thrower does. All the thrower needs to do is
turn their head and maybe extend their body a little and the marker has to
completely move over to cut off that throw.
One more important thing to teach here is to have a least one fake per
pivot. I tell them to fake low, fake high and then throw in middle as they
begin to turn their head to the other side (a no look throw).
On top of that, they get the bonus of having vision negative to the line of
scrimmage.
> If I have my back to the marker,
> isn't it harder to break force/see incoming cuts?
I rarely break the mark. I usually don't need to. With proper spacing and
teaching players to play 360 degrees instead of being confrontational
towards the marker, breaking the mark just isn't a critical skill.
Especially if you're of the mind of teaching them to walk before they run.
As for the vision of incoming cuts, there's a couple of answers. First, I
don't force players to play 100% of the time with their back to the marker
(but I do encourage a healthy 60/40 balance) so as they're transitioning
back and forth, they should have more than adequate vision upfield. But for
the purposes of this drill, they're to keep their back to the marker the
whole time.
Second, the give and go is an important aspect of the drill and not to be
overlooked. As the player throws the disc, they're supposed to follow the
disc with a hard give and go move as if they're getting the disc back from
the player they threw to. So in answer to your question, the incoming cut
that they should see should be their own. In other words, in the motion
offense, the motion is frequently initiated by the thrower while the other
players are posted up (standing and holding their ground against their
defender) giving the thrower room to operate.
The motion offense actually looks very similar to what you would set up on
offense against a zone defense with a lot of offensive players standing
around. This has the effect of getting the defense to be standing around as
well.
fph
> Justin, you seemed to have worked this out for yourself, but under NO
> circumstances should you start teaching ultimate from the Frank
> Hugenard school of circus sideshow antics.
And the reason for your closemindedness is? This is exactly the kind of
bigotry that has pervaded the ultimate culture for all the past 20 years.
Don't listen to that guy, he doesn't think like us. That's a nice healthy
attitude.
Teaching players to think like point guards instead of quarterbacks is a
'circus sideshow'?
I'm sorry, I happen to think that the stack is neither fun to play nor is it
intellectually stimulating. There are other offenses that are a lot more
fun and playing an offense that has the thrower consistently confronting the
marker doesn't take full advantage of a team's strengths nor a thrower's
abilities.
And btw, that's Huguenard with two u's.
RJD
athletic, plus they rely on a few (2, sometimes 3) good throwers. When
I've seen less experienced people play without a stack, they tend to
stand in one place to receive a pass. A stack seems a very good way to
keep people out of the throwing lanes, and make people cut hard if they
want the disc. Without a stack, there IS no place to cut- somebody is
standing in all the throwing lanes, or too near the throwing lanes for
good defenders to pass up the opportunity to poach.
What is their pivot foot if they are throwing right or left handed?
What keeps the mark from circling the thrower so they HAVE to face
them? I always do that to less experienced throwers. If the disc is
trapped on the sideline, then the thrower is facing the sideline,
correct? Could you explain the purpose of this drill further?
The stack is very easy to teach, especially in a summer league
situation. Some variation of the stack is also used by most teams.
Even if it isn't used, if you really learned the principles that went
with it- keeping out of the throwing lanes, cutting hard at appropriate
angles, etc., it is applicable to other offenses. Angles are very,
very important, and a stack tends to teach really good angles.
I am not trying to be close-minded, but to better understand what you
are teaching so that I can teach better, too.
rez...@gmail.com
running to the same place. It does seem primative at times, but for
people just starting, at the very least you can keep them from tripping
over each other.
I think the future is having a spread that equal parts 3-handler give
and go and 4 downfield cutters moving and hucking to each other. But
how to teach beginners to cut to where the space is?
mike
Larry D. Hols
> I think the future is having a spread that equal parts 3-handler give
> and go and 4 downfield cutters moving and hucking to each other. But
> how to teach beginners to cut to where the space is?
That's like coaching football receivers, particularly run & shoot
receivers.
Larry
Justin
information resource for teaching beginners the basics of
ultimate/stack offense. Any better info out there, particularly if it
shows cuts from the front of the stack?
fph
> The spread offenses I've seen (that work) are very structured and very
> athletic, plus they rely on a few (2, sometimes 3) good throwers.
The spread offenses that I've seen are significantly different from the
spread offense I run.
From what I've observed, the other spread offenses attempt to do what you
suggest the stack does, which is conceal weaker players.
What I attempt to do with the spread offense is to put the weaker players in
the best position to succeed and use them when they are available. Magic
Johnson made Byron Scott look like a superstar. It's all about making the
people around you better, not hiding them and hoping they don't get the
disc.
> When I've seen less experienced people play without a stack,
> they tend to stand in one place to receive a pass.
I like people standing in one place. That way, they are either are directly
or indirectly open (indirectly means that there is a defender between
themselves and me so if I can penetrate beyond them, at the point, they are
directly open).
> A stack seems a very good way to
> keep people out of the throwing lanes, and make people cut hard if they
> want the disc.
There are 360 degrees of throwing lanes. In fact, the notion of throwing
lanes is self limiting.
> Without a stack, there IS no place to cut- somebody is
> standing in all the throwing lanes, or too near the throwing lanes for
> good defenders to pass up the opportunity to poach.
This is exactly what I want to have happen. Getting defenders to lunge at a
poach that they don't stand a chance at getting compromises the structure of
the defense and makes things easier.
Try to keep in mind that the THROWER is also a cutter. A stack, being a
line of receivers, is impossible to penetrate into.
> What is their pivot foot if they are throwing right or left handed?
> What keeps the mark from circling the thrower so they HAVE to face
> them?
Nothing.
But that should be a good thing. At least you've done something to control
the marker instead of directly confronting him and letting him dictate to
you what you're doing.
> I always do that to less experienced throwers. If the disc is
> trapped on the sideline, then the thrower is facing the sideline,
> correct?
Yes, this is correct and even more reason to be able to quickly transition
from one side of the marker to the other.
> Could you explain the purpose of this drill further?
The purpose of the drill is to teach throwers to be comfortable at defeating
the marker without directly confronting him. The amount of effort required
by the thrower vs. the amount of effort by the marker to stop his every move
puts the thrower at an advantage when he has his back to the marker. It
also emphasizes the thrower looking negative instead of only positive.
> The stack is very easy to teach, especially in a summer league
> situation. Some variation of the stack is also used by most teams.
> Even if it isn't used, if you really learned the principles that went
> with it- keeping out of the throwing lanes, cutting hard at appropriate
> angles, etc., it is applicable to other offenses.
This I disagree with. The angles you talk about here are opposite of what I
teach. I promote 'direct' throws. Ones in which your receiver is square to
you and you throw directly at them. As for throwing lanes, I think I've
already addressed that. Ultimate CAN be an extremely dynamic game. What is
a throwing lane one moment, is not a throwing lane the next, especially in
the motion offense.
The 'principals' that you speak of are somewhat limiting and are fairly
restrictive.
> Angles are very,
> very important, and a stack tends to teach really good angles.
Wrong (IMHO). The angles in the stack are horrible according to me.
>
> I am not trying to be close-minded, but to better understand what you
> are teaching so that I can teach better, too.
Sorry, don't mean to harsh on anyone. My thinking is just so much different
and the conventional logic contradicts mine. That doesn't mean that either
one is right or wrong but to not consider one is closed mindedness. I've
played the stack. I prefer the motion O.
fph
>
> I think the future is having a spread that equal parts 3-handler give
> and go and 4 downfield cutters moving and hucking to each other. But
> how to teach beginners to cut to where the space is?
How do you coach 8 year old kids not to play bunch ball in soccer? It's not
easy but it's very doable.
As you transition to more of a balanced attack between give and go moves and
a spread, there's less importance on the receivers having to compensate for
an unbalanced attack.