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chain and sockeye forfeits
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disc...@yahoo.com
Oct 27, 2012, 4:05:31 PM10/27/12
to
what's up with chain and sockeye forfeiting their fifth-place games? didn't usau try to eliminate forfeitures during the championships? did something particularly bad happen to the teams, or were they just disappointed in their results?
sean
sean
Pete
Oct 27, 2012, 4:20:04 PM10/27/12
to
CLX and The Ghosts double forfeited in Mixed. I'd be
interested in why these are all happening.
--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com
interested in why these are all happening.
--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com
Reid K
Oct 27, 2012, 5:41:40 PM10/27/12
to
Sean, a question. Have you ever been in the position that sockeye and chain were in? Do you know that feeling?
Euh
Oct 27, 2012, 5:55:04 PM10/27/12
to
seanc wrote on Sat, 27 October 2012 13:05
They knew they wouldnt make it to the final so they reserved
their plane tickets accordingly
their plane tickets accordingly
Euh
Oct 27, 2012, 6:00:04 PM10/27/12
to
Reid K wrote on Sat, 27 October 2012 14:41
fish nets/poles. Thank god we didnt see that in the final.
> Sean, a question. Have you ever been in the position
> that sockeye and chain were in? Do you know that feeling?
No sympathy for the fishes. They were ridiculous with their
> that sockeye and chain were in? Do you know that feeling?
fish nets/poles. Thank god we didnt see that in the final.
anakin gerics
Oct 27, 2012, 6:43:18 PM10/27/12
to
> what's up with chain and sockeye forfeiting their fifth-place games? didn't usau try to eliminate forfeitures during the championships? did something particularly bad happen to the teams, or were they just disappointed in their results?
maybe they don't want to advance to the elite pro great 'flight' next
year?
anakin gerics
Oct 27, 2012, 6:43:51 PM10/27/12
to
> Sean, a question. Have you ever been in the position that sockeye and chain were in? Do you know that feeling?
---the feeling of 'having another scheduled game'?
anakin gerics
Oct 27, 2012, 6:44:56 PM10/27/12
to
> No sympathy for the fishes. They were ridiculous with their
> fish nets/poles. Thank god we didnt see that in the final.
---they've always worn fish nets....and have always been a bunch of
poles, anyway...
Pete
Oct 27, 2012, 8:10:04 PM10/27/12
to
Interesting question: did the flights cause the forfeits?
1-4 goes to US Open, 5-8 is into Pro Flight regardless.
Rankings for strength bids next year are based on the
regular season, not finish at nationals. There is no benefit
in the current system for Chain/Sockeye/Ozone/CLX/The Ghosts
to play another game. They aren't in the US Open, they are
in the Pro Flight, and nothing else changes that.
1-4 goes to US Open, 5-8 is into Pro Flight regardless.
Rankings for strength bids next year are based on the
regular season, not finish at nationals. There is no benefit
in the current system for Chain/Sockeye/Ozone/CLX/The Ghosts
to play another game. They aren't in the US Open, they are
in the Pro Flight, and nothing else changes that.
disc...@yahoo.com
Oct 27, 2012, 8:11:26 PM10/27/12
to
On Saturday, October 27, 2012 2:41:41 PM UTC-7, Reid K wrote:
> Sean, a question. Have you ever been in the position that sockeye and chain were in? Do you know that feeling?
no. i know the feeling of losing games i really really wanted to win, and then going on to play other games and finishing the tournament. i feel for them, but i'm a fan of both teams and i want to see how they do in those placement games.
> Sean, a question. Have you ever been in the position that sockeye and chain were in? Do you know that feeling?
thanks for asking, reid. i hope they're healthy and i hope they're not feeling too downtrodden because i think they're great competitors. i also wish they'd finished out the games.
sean
dmmp
Oct 28, 2012, 1:01:28 AM10/28/12
to
On Saturday, October 27, 2012 5:41:41 PM UTC-4, Reid K wrote:
> Sean, a question. Have you ever been in the position that sockeye and chain were in? Do you know that feeling?
i dont think this matters. can you imagine another team in sports not competing in a game because they were elimiinated. say the last few weeks of the nfl, teams cant officially make the playoffs, and they decided not to show up. i think it is classless. they think they are better than those games and therefore think they dont need to play. total lack of class. what about the two teams that waited around to play them? how do they feel?
> Sean, a question. Have you ever been in the position that sockeye and chain were in? Do you know that feeling?
and dont say they were too tired/injured, or needed to get home. im sure they would have found a way to play if they won.
Reid K
Oct 28, 2012, 1:15:26 AM10/28/12
to
Sean, I've also been in a position where I've lost games I really really wanted to win and then played more games to finish a tournament. This is not the same as losing on Saturday at nationals. You can say you wanted to see how those games played out, I can say the results wouldn't have been an accurate measure of anything.
dmmp, pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl players are making and i will play the games out. Make my position on the team next year dependent on how I perform in those games and I will play the games out. Until then, I will choose which games are important and which games are not. As I said to Sean, until you've been there, you can't understand that feeling and that choice.
dmmp, pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl players are making and i will play the games out. Make my position on the team next year dependent on how I perform in those games and I will play the games out. Until then, I will choose which games are important and which games are not. As I said to Sean, until you've been there, you can't understand that feeling and that choice.
RoShamShot
Oct 28, 2012, 1:50:04 AM10/28/12
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dmmp wrote on Sat, 27 October 2012 22:01
Actually it would be more like making teams teams that lose
on a Thursday or Friday game for march madness hang around
and play a losers game. Or what if you make the teams that
lose in the first round of playoffs in the nfl play a "5th"
place game on the second weekend.
on a Thursday or Friday game for march madness hang around
and play a losers game. Or what if you make the teams that
lose in the first round of playoffs in the nfl play a "5th"
place game on the second weekend.
Kearney
Oct 28, 2012, 3:50:04 AM10/28/12
to
These players paid for their own road to Natties. Every
single game could lead to a serious injury for any player on
the field. Why, after not accomplishing the goal the team
had set, and not being able to rectify/justify any reason to
play a consolation game, would any player want to subject
themselves to that chance? So someone streaming can watch an
extremely unimportant game? You don't go to tournaments to
subject yourself to unnecessary punishment. You go to win,
if that's gone, the incentive has disappeared.
Everyone needs incentive. When there is none, you preserve
yourself. It's human nature, reason, etc., for these players
not to play. Sorry you're upset, bro.
single game could lead to a serious injury for any player on
the field. Why, after not accomplishing the goal the team
had set, and not being able to rectify/justify any reason to
play a consolation game, would any player want to subject
themselves to that chance? So someone streaming can watch an
extremely unimportant game? You don't go to tournaments to
subject yourself to unnecessary punishment. You go to win,
if that's gone, the incentive has disappeared.
Everyone needs incentive. When there is none, you preserve
yourself. It's human nature, reason, etc., for these players
not to play. Sorry you're upset, bro.
anakin gerics
Oct 28, 2012, 6:31:36 AM10/28/12
to
> i dont think this matters. can you imagine another team in sports not competing in a game because they were elimiinated. say the last few weeks of the nfl, teams cant officially make the playoffs, and they decided not to show up. i think it is classless. they think they are better than those games and therefore think they dont need to play. total lack of class. what about the two teams that waited around to play them? how do they feel?
>
> and dont say they were too tired/injured, or needed to get home. im sure they would have found a way to play if they won.
---wonderfully stated, dmmp
anakin gerics
Oct 28, 2012, 6:33:06 AM10/28/12
to
On Oct 28, 1:15 am, Reid K <reid.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> dmmp, pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl players are making and i will play the games out.
~~~~~~~~~~
> dmmp, pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl players are making and i will play the games out.
---wonderfully lamely stated, reid k.
wow......
for YOUR reason.....you might as well quit ultimate....immediately.
quit....like those other quitters.
anakin gerics
Oct 28, 2012, 6:35:11 AM10/28/12
to
> Actually it would be more like making teams teams that lose
> on a Thursday or Friday game for march madness hang around
> and play a losers game.
---please.
when do college basketball teams play multi-game day tournaments like
ultimate teams?
most sports are ONE game a day....or ONE game every 3 or 4 days....or
ONE game a week.
ultimate's culture....is MULTIPLE games a day.
when you bail....you're bailing on the culture of the sport of
ultimate.
anakin gerics
Oct 28, 2012, 6:38:25 AM10/28/12
to
> These players paid for their own road to Natties. Every
> single game could lead to a serious injury for any player on
> the field. Why, after not accomplishing the goal the team
> had set, and not being able to rectify/justify any reason to
> play a consolation game, would any player want to subject
> themselves to that chance?
--HA!
why?
because they're lame like your lame post?
every game could lead to an injury!?????
that's queer.
your incentive....is lame....
and i'm sorry your so lame, bro.
disc...@yahoo.com
Oct 28, 2012, 11:39:32 AM10/28/12
to
On Saturday, October 27, 2012 10:15:26 PM UTC-7, Reid K wrote:
> Sean, I've also been in a position where I've lost games I really really wanted to win and then played more games to finish a tournament. This is not the same as losing on Saturday at nationals. You can say you wanted to see how those games played out, I can say the results wouldn't have been an accurate measure of anything.
>
>
>
> dmmp, pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl players are making and i will play the games out. Make my position on the team next year dependent on how I perform in those games and I will play the games out. Until then, I will choose which games are important and which games are not. As I said to Sean, until you've been there, you can't understand that feeling and that choice.
i've never understood this argument: "until you've been in that exact position, you can't understand their pain." any game we play takes on the amount of importance we give it. if a team's seasonal goal is to win a game at sectionals, and they put in hour after hour of grueling workouts, strategy sessions, field drills and scrimmages, the individuals on that team are still putting everything on the line for that game. like you said, no one's making millions of dollars. disappointment is related to expectations going in -- the pressure we put on ourselves, not any outside pressure related to livelihood. maybe you play the game so that the four non-ultimate playing people in your life who know what ultimate is can be like, "no way! you made it to semis? you're some kind of virile stud." because, otherwise, it's not for the status, either. we play because we love the game -- my love for the game makes me want to play those supposedly meaningless games because it means a) i get to play more ultimate, and b) it's another chance for me to dig down deep inside myself and see what i'm made of.
> Sean, I've also been in a position where I've lost games I really really wanted to win and then played more games to finish a tournament. This is not the same as losing on Saturday at nationals. You can say you wanted to see how those games played out, I can say the results wouldn't have been an accurate measure of anything.
>
>
>
> dmmp, pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl players are making and i will play the games out. Make my position on the team next year dependent on how I perform in those games and I will play the games out. Until then, I will choose which games are important and which games are not. As I said to Sean, until you've been there, you can't understand that feeling and that choice.
you're not the first person to make this argument, but i still haven't seen enough cogent support for it to sway me.
sean
disc...@yahoo.com
Oct 28, 2012, 11:44:38 AM10/28/12
to Kearney
sean
NXR
Oct 28, 2012, 5:55:23 PM10/28/12
to
I understand wanting teams to play out all games during regular tourneys, sectionals, and regionals. At nationals after day 2 if your team can't win you shouldn't have scheduled games. You want to play more then have a friendly, mix up teams, do whatever you want. 6 games is already a pretty full tournament, and there is nothing left to play for. also
"ultimate's culture....is MULTIPLE games a day.
when you bail....you're bailing on the culture of the sport of
ultimate."
you heard it here first the UOA states that the AUDL is bailing on the culture of the sport of ultimate
when you bail....you're bailing on the culture of the sport of
ultimate."
JB
Oct 28, 2012, 10:35:05 PM10/28/12
to
Ain't no n-teenth place game worth a torn ACL. Ultimate
culture will survive.
culture will survive.
homrbush
Oct 29, 2012, 12:40:06 AM10/29/12
to
Binky wrote on Sun, 28 October 2012 22:31
immediately.
> Ain't no n-teenth place game worth a torn ACL. Ultimate
> culture will survive.
Neither is a game of pick up. Those should be cancelled
> culture will survive.
immediately.
jacob...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2012, 2:05:41 AM10/29/12
to homrbush
If your teams wants to play that consolation game, go ahead and play it.
If another team does not want to play, let them forfeit.
Why is this a big deal? And "the position that sockeye and chain were in" may not be exactly the same as all other teams eliminated at Nationals in the past (and is almost definitely not the same as all teams eliminated in less important tournaments), so people like Sean may not in fact know where the forfeiting teams are coming from. If you insist upon judging these forfeits, you should judge them on a case-by-case basis. And if you don't know the facts of the case in questions, then reserve judgment. (*Sean, I realize that you were soliciting facts here, so I'm not trying to chap you.)
And there is no appropriate analogy in other sports.
If another team does not want to play, let them forfeit.
Why is this a big deal? And "the position that sockeye and chain were in" may not be exactly the same as all other teams eliminated at Nationals in the past (and is almost definitely not the same as all teams eliminated in less important tournaments), so people like Sean may not in fact know where the forfeiting teams are coming from. If you insist upon judging these forfeits, you should judge them on a case-by-case basis. And if you don't know the facts of the case in questions, then reserve judgment. (*Sean, I realize that you were soliciting facts here, so I'm not trying to chap you.)
And there is no appropriate analogy in other sports.
Jeff Kula
Oct 29, 2012, 7:45:07 AM10/29/12
to
Quote:
these teams and players who make the semifinals at the
premier event in their sport are high-level, talented,
competitive, and have full expectation of being crowned
champions. And with lucrative professional contracts
(unrelated to World Cup participation), it seems to me that
these players have even more at risk due to injury than the
teams at Nationals.
I realize that there are minor differences you could point
out, but to say that there is no appropriate analogy is just
your way of blindly defending your position regarding
Ultimate forfeits.
-Jeff
> And there is no appropriate analogy in other sports.
How about the 3rd place game at the World Cup? Seems to me
these teams and players who make the semifinals at the
premier event in their sport are high-level, talented,
competitive, and have full expectation of being crowned
champions. And with lucrative professional contracts
(unrelated to World Cup participation), it seems to me that
these players have even more at risk due to injury than the
teams at Nationals.
I realize that there are minor differences you could point
out, but to say that there is no appropriate analogy is just
your way of blindly defending your position regarding
Ultimate forfeits.
-Jeff
Ravi
Oct 29, 2012, 8:10:06 AM10/29/12
to
Binky wrote on Mon, 29 October 2012 03:31
Each game is just an injury risk? What about just loving
the game, respecting the tournament and respecting the other
teams that went there. How about the fact that Machine paid
their way and earned their right to games against teams like
Sockeye and Chain? Isn't this really what spirit of the
game comes down to? Respect for your opponents?
These teams haven't said anything, maybe they have valid
reasons for forfeiting, but if it is just because they think
they are above that game, or disappointed in their result
then that is total crap.
In World's Team Canada got relegated down to a Bronze medal
game against a much weaker Sweden but they didn't just give
up and stop. Neither did Australia and Japan who got hugely
upset GB and Sweden in quarters, they still went on and
played for 5th place.
Respect opponents and love the game. Play the tournament
out until the last game.
> Ain't no n-teenth place game worth a torn ACL. Ultimate
> culture will survive.
Is this really all those teams see in this kind of game?
> culture will survive.
Each game is just an injury risk? What about just loving
the game, respecting the tournament and respecting the other
teams that went there. How about the fact that Machine paid
their way and earned their right to games against teams like
Sockeye and Chain? Isn't this really what spirit of the
game comes down to? Respect for your opponents?
These teams haven't said anything, maybe they have valid
reasons for forfeiting, but if it is just because they think
they are above that game, or disappointed in their result
then that is total crap.
In World's Team Canada got relegated down to a Bronze medal
game against a much weaker Sweden but they didn't just give
up and stop. Neither did Australia and Japan who got hugely
upset GB and Sweden in quarters, they still went on and
played for 5th place.
Respect opponents and love the game. Play the tournament
out until the last game.
anakin gerics
Oct 29, 2012, 8:15:49 AM10/29/12
to
> How about the 3rd place game at the World Cup?
--indeed.
From 1946 until 1981, the NCAA Men's Division I Basketball
Championship featured a consolation third-place game.
what about.....the Maui Invitational and allllll those other early
season basketball tournaments?!?!?!
8 teams...quarters...then day two is semis and losers semis...day 3 is
finals, the 3/4, 5/6 and 7/8games.
peurto rico invite....great alaskan shootout....many more i
suppose.....
teams don't bail if they lose quarters.
now....reply with....'contracts' and 'money' and 'sponsorship' and
whatever else.....
anakin gerics
Oct 29, 2012, 8:17:50 AM10/29/12
to
> Is this really all those teams see in this kind of game?
> Each game is just an injury risk? What about just loving
> the game, respecting the tournament and respecting the other
> teams that went there.
---i'm probably widely regarded as the least respectful player in the
sport's history......
however....when it comes to the above sentiment....i'm probably one of
the most respectful...for all those reasons....the love of the sport,
the game, respect for the event, the TD, the opponent, the
schedule......
weird...
JB
Oct 29, 2012, 8:55:05 AM10/29/12
to
Gerics, I remember a cold rainy tournament in Wilmington
where your team (the home team no less) forfeited the game
y'all were supposed to play against us, a team you probably
considered not worth your time.
I know how much you love to pay yourself on the back, but
your arm looks really twisted on this one...
where your team (the home team no less) forfeited the game
y'all were supposed to play against us, a team you probably
considered not worth your time.
I know how much you love to pay yourself on the back, but
your arm looks really twisted on this one...
anakin gerics
Oct 29, 2012, 9:26:51 AM10/29/12
to
> Gerics, I remember a cold rainy tournament in Wilmington
> where your team (the home team no less) forfeited the game
> y'all were supposed to play against us, a team you probably
> considered not worth your time.
>
> I know how much you love to pay yourself on the back, but
> your arm looks really twisted on this one...
---you'd have to remind me.....because i'm not recalling.
tony leonardo
Oct 29, 2012, 9:35:06 AM10/29/12
to
seriously pretentious, Reid
Mozaic
Oct 29, 2012, 9:50:06 AM10/29/12
to
the 3rd place game at the world cup is always a lower
quality game as the players have all gone out drinking and
drowning the sorrows the night before. They do not care
about the game and it shows on the field.
Gerics uses NCAA basketball as an example...except they
changed the rule 3o years ago. Why do you think they
changed? Because no one cares. As for the other early season
tournaments in NCAA, guess what, Ultimate has early season
tournaments that teams play until the end because they are
game time situations that develop your team for the ultimate
goal of the national championship.
Although I will never be at a National Championship ( i know
my skill limits), I don't begrudge the guys who forfeited
the final games which have Zero meaning to their season,
zero meaning to next years season, and the only people who
wanted it played are people sitting on their couch at home
saying why aren't they dedicated (my interpretation)...
quality game as the players have all gone out drinking and
drowning the sorrows the night before. They do not care
about the game and it shows on the field.
Gerics uses NCAA basketball as an example...except they
changed the rule 3o years ago. Why do you think they
changed? Because no one cares. As for the other early season
tournaments in NCAA, guess what, Ultimate has early season
tournaments that teams play until the end because they are
game time situations that develop your team for the ultimate
goal of the national championship.
Although I will never be at a National Championship ( i know
my skill limits), I don't begrudge the guys who forfeited
the final games which have Zero meaning to their season,
zero meaning to next years season, and the only people who
wanted it played are people sitting on their couch at home
saying why aren't they dedicated (my interpretation)...
Jeff Kula
Oct 29, 2012, 10:00:07 AM10/29/12
to
Quote:
somewhat beside the point.
The conversation here isn't about how hard teams need to
play in a consolation game, whether the game should be
scheduled, etc. There are obviously varying opinions on
these issues. The specific issue brought up in this post
was that, given that a game is scheduled, is it a team's
responsibility to play?
And in the case of the World Cup, they do play. Now if you
think that 3rd place game is a waste of time, then you're
entitled to that opinion. But the teams don't forfeit.
> the 3rd place game at the world cup is always a lower
> quality game as the players have all gone out drinking and
> drowning the sorrows the night before. They do not care
> about the game and it shows on the field.
That may (or may not) be true. But regardless, it's
> quality game as the players have all gone out drinking and
> drowning the sorrows the night before. They do not care
> about the game and it shows on the field.
somewhat beside the point.
The conversation here isn't about how hard teams need to
play in a consolation game, whether the game should be
scheduled, etc. There are obviously varying opinions on
these issues. The specific issue brought up in this post
was that, given that a game is scheduled, is it a team's
responsibility to play?
And in the case of the World Cup, they do play. Now if you
think that 3rd place game is a waste of time, then you're
entitled to that opinion. But the teams don't forfeit.
Ryan Thompson
Oct 29, 2012, 10:34:41 AM10/29/12
to
That 3rd place game is for a bronze medal. Maybe if USA Ultimate
offered bronze medals, teams would play a 3rd place game, but the
quarterfinal consolation games are meaningless. They don't do them at
the College Championships.
offered bronze medals, teams would play a 3rd place game, but the
quarterfinal consolation games are meaningless. They don't do them at
the College Championships.
anakin gerics
Oct 29, 2012, 10:35:30 AM10/29/12
to
> the 3rd place game at the world cup is always a lower
> quality game as the players have all gone out drinking and
> drowning the sorrows the night before. They do not care
> about the game and it shows on the field.
---pffft.
says you.
anakin gerics
Oct 29, 2012, 10:36:26 AM10/29/12
to
> Although I will never be at a National Championship ( i know
> my skill limits), I don't begrudge the guys who forfeited
> the final games
--then you're a quitter too.
anakin gerics
Oct 29, 2012, 10:36:56 AM10/29/12
to
> Gerics uses NCAA basketball as an example...except they
> changed the rule 3o years ago.
---but...before they got rid of it....did the teams bail on the
game...or did they play it?
anakin gerics
Oct 29, 2012, 10:39:13 AM10/29/12
to
> That 3rd place game is for a bronze medal. Maybe if USA Ultimate
> offered bronze medals, teams would play a 3rd place game, but the
> quarterfinal consolation games are meaningless.
---then...why are they on the schedule?
tony leonardo
Oct 29, 2012, 10:45:07 AM10/29/12
to
the answer to all of this has already been posted: with the
new Pro/Open flight divisions USAU is implementing the 5-8
bracket carries little weight. Previously these games were
important for next year's wild card bids and thus meant real
competition -- getting that 5th place could mean your team
had a better chance of making Nationals the following year
it is disingenuous to begrudge Sockeye/Chain/CLX/Ghosts for
bagging on the games nor overly praise the teams that did
play
new Pro/Open flight divisions USAU is implementing the 5-8
bracket carries little weight. Previously these games were
important for next year's wild card bids and thus meant real
competition -- getting that 5th place could mean your team
had a better chance of making Nationals the following year
it is disingenuous to begrudge Sockeye/Chain/CLX/Ghosts for
bagging on the games nor overly praise the teams that did
play
ultimatep...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2012, 11:28:52 AM10/29/12
to tony leonardo
1. USA Ultimate Standard for "Pro Flight" Allows Forfeiting Upon Whim of Pro Teams
Pro Flight? Is USA Ultimate's standard that you don't need to play out your games if you are at the "Pro" level? As has been discussed, Pro doesn't stand for professional, because no one is getting paid (this year?).
2. USA Ultimate Message to Other Flights: Go Ahead And Forfeit Your Second Day Games
Does this set the standard for all Flights? If you are "Classic Flight," can you forfeit like the Pros? Is that the message that USA Ultimate is communicating by allowing forfeits with no repercussions at the Pro level?
3. No More Masters and a Media Black Hole For Semis Supports Last Day Game Forfeits
Maybe this is USA Ultimate's way to get a few more people on the sidelines for the first halves of the semis, now that Masters is gone.
4. Hypothetical Questions Leave Question as to Intent of Author
<insert argument>
Pro Flight? Is USA Ultimate's standard that you don't need to play out your games if you are at the "Pro" level? As has been discussed, Pro doesn't stand for professional, because no one is getting paid (this year?).
2. USA Ultimate Message to Other Flights: Go Ahead And Forfeit Your Second Day Games
Does this set the standard for all Flights? If you are "Classic Flight," can you forfeit like the Pros? Is that the message that USA Ultimate is communicating by allowing forfeits with no repercussions at the Pro level?
3. No More Masters and a Media Black Hole For Semis Supports Last Day Game Forfeits
Maybe this is USA Ultimate's way to get a few more people on the sidelines for the first halves of the semis, now that Masters is gone.
4. Hypothetical Questions Leave Question as to Intent of Author
<insert argument>
Pete
Oct 29, 2012, 11:30:09 AM10/29/12
to
I guessed that was the case, and that the 5th place game was
a relic from the previous setup. (Even probably before this
year, since strength bids were assigned based on the regular
season.)
Looking at the old six region format, with 4 strength bids
(I think this was how it worked...), it looks like Machine
would have grabbed a Central strength bid and GOAT would
have grabbed a bid. Had that extra bid been on the line for
next year's regions, I imagine Chain and Sockeye play those
games.
Anybody have a better handle on how bids used to work, and
where the strength bids would have gone had they been
applicable for next year.
a relic from the previous setup. (Even probably before this
year, since strength bids were assigned based on the regular
season.)
Looking at the old six region format, with 4 strength bids
(I think this was how it worked...), it looks like Machine
would have grabbed a Central strength bid and GOAT would
have grabbed a bid. Had that extra bid been on the line for
next year's regions, I imagine Chain and Sockeye play those
games.
Anybody have a better handle on how bids used to work, and
where the strength bids would have gone had they been
applicable for next year.
Alan Hoyle
Oct 29, 2012, 11:46:21 AM10/29/12
to
It was announced at the pre-tournament captain's meeting
that consolation placement games were optional for the open,
women's, and mixed divisions. I am surprised as many of the
consolation games were played as there were, but many were
played to lower point totals.
-Alan
--
Alan Hoyle
mailto:al...@tfda.org
http://www.tfda.org/
that consolation placement games were optional for the open,
women's, and mixed divisions. I am surprised as many of the
consolation games were played as there were, but many were
played to lower point totals.
-Alan
--
Alan Hoyle
mailto:al...@tfda.org
http://www.tfda.org/
ultimatep...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2012, 12:30:40 PM10/29/12
to Alan Hoyle
eh. not sure if I just posted this:
1. a Player centered approach to club championships is a historical artifact of the UPA
comments about not playing high placement games reflect the old attitude, i.e. the natties are about me as a player (or us as a team). I could have made that same comment (although not on my (team's) first trip to natties, as we would have played the 3/4 game, if there had been one - but more likely on my team's third trip).
2. USA Ultimate is shifting the focus of competitive ultimate
As Tom has said, USA Ultimate is trying to sell ultimate. In order to do so, they have to do various things to make things look more "official" and provide greater clarity to outside parties. The change from the UPA to USA Ultimate reflects a shift towards greater professionalism, and maybe towards fans (whether individual, or whether sponsors/media).
3. Allowing forfeits would seem to not be consistent with USA Ultimate's goals
Under our old attitudes, forfeits are fine. Things were player centered, so a team's emotional core mattered. Under the new focus, one would think that RANKING games should all matter, especially at the Pro and Elite flights. I don't see how a sponsor/media type, who looks at the brackets, sees the forfeit and thinks, an organization that allows forfeits for final RANKING games is a professional org.
Forfeits of any ranking game should have consequences if USA Ultimate wants to be consistent and wants to promote professionalism.
1. a Player centered approach to club championships is a historical artifact of the UPA
comments about not playing high placement games reflect the old attitude, i.e. the natties are about me as a player (or us as a team). I could have made that same comment (although not on my (team's) first trip to natties, as we would have played the 3/4 game, if there had been one - but more likely on my team's third trip).
2. USA Ultimate is shifting the focus of competitive ultimate
As Tom has said, USA Ultimate is trying to sell ultimate. In order to do so, they have to do various things to make things look more "official" and provide greater clarity to outside parties. The change from the UPA to USA Ultimate reflects a shift towards greater professionalism, and maybe towards fans (whether individual, or whether sponsors/media).
3. Allowing forfeits would seem to not be consistent with USA Ultimate's goals
Under our old attitudes, forfeits are fine. Things were player centered, so a team's emotional core mattered. Under the new focus, one would think that RANKING games should all matter, especially at the Pro and Elite flights. I don't see how a sponsor/media type, who looks at the brackets, sees the forfeit and thinks, an organization that allows forfeits for final RANKING games is a professional org.
Forfeits of any ranking game should have consequences if USA Ultimate wants to be consistent and wants to promote professionalism.
Pete
Oct 29, 2012, 12:45:07 PM10/29/12
to
Completely hypothetical question, but one that I'd like an
answer for.
Let's say a semifinal team decides not to play in the Pro
Flight, or the US Open. The next offer for Pro Flight would
go to the fifth place team, correct? Would that have to be
Machine, on account of they ended up placed fifth?
answer for.
Let's say a semifinal team decides not to play in the Pro
Flight, or the US Open. The next offer for Pro Flight would
go to the fifth place team, correct? Would that have to be
Machine, on account of they ended up placed fifth?
homrbush
Oct 29, 2012, 1:05:06 PM10/29/12
to
Pro Flight is top 8, but the top 4 get to play the US Open.
Your point is quite valid. Good on Machine for recognizing
that? Or proof that the US Open isn't going to be nearly as
important as USA Ultimate wishes it to be?
Your point is quite valid. Good on Machine for recognizing
that? Or proof that the US Open isn't going to be nearly as
important as USA Ultimate wishes it to be?
Jed
Oct 29, 2012, 1:40:38 PM10/29/12
to homrbush
Also wondering, does GOAT get a bid as an international team? I think that's what happened this year. Corollary - if GOAT had had held on to beat Double Wide, and finished top 4, would the 5th place team (or next best US team) get a US Open bid?
Fantusta
Oct 29, 2012, 2:03:54 PM10/29/12
to homrbush
smcc...@fmail.co.uk
Oct 29, 2012, 2:34:34 PM10/29/12
to
Someone mentioned that "none of the teams had spoken on this thread," but I believe Reid K. plays for Sockeye.
Men can do what they want to do, but bottom line, it's extremely unbecoming of "storied" and highly respected programs like Sockeye and Chain Lightning to be forfeiting games in the fifth place bracket.
Men can do what they want to do, but bottom line, it's extremely unbecoming of "storied" and highly respected programs like Sockeye and Chain Lightning to be forfeiting games in the fifth place bracket.
Torre
Oct 29, 2012, 4:49:05 PM10/29/12
to
I heard they were actually saving their legs for the
#PoneBeachHat tourny...
#PoneBeachHat tourny...
disc...@yahoo.com
Oct 30, 2012, 1:15:55 AM10/30/12
to tony leonardo
On Monday, October 29, 2012 7:45:07 AM UTC-7, tony leonardo wrote:
> it is disingenuous to begrudge Sockeye/Chain/CLX/Ghosts for
>
> bagging on the games nor overly praise the teams that did
>
> play
>
really tony? in what way is it not sincere or lacking candor?
> it is disingenuous to begrudge Sockeye/Chain/CLX/Ghosts for
>
> bagging on the games nor overly praise the teams that did
>
> play
>
i can only speak for myself, but i don't mean to bag on them. if it's the case that they're not playing the games because they're disappointed in their finish or because they don't value the games, then i judge them based on how i expect i would feel and act were i in their positions (and to a lesser extent because i don't get to see how the games turn out. others have already pointed out that the teams have no obligation to play for some schmuck sitting in front of his computer at home, which i agree with although it does bring up the whole question of how mainstream and fan-friendly we want ultimate to be, etc. i'm sure i'd also agree with it even more strongly if i weren't the schmuck in question).
when i say "judge them," i don't think they're horrible people, or anything. it just means i disagree with their choices. i understand the rationales posted so far, but i still don't think they're as good as my rationale for playing the games.
it's an interesting discussion. i'll be curious to see how the usau works it out for the triple crown.
hope everyone's safe and dry this week,
sean
disc...@yahoo.com
Oct 30, 2012, 1:20:02 AM10/30/12
to Alan Hoyle
On Monday, October 29, 2012 8:46:20 AM UTC-7, Alan Hoyle wrote:
> It was announced at the pre-tournament captain's meeting
>
> that consolation placement games were optional for the open,
>
> women's, and mixed divisions. I am surprised as many of the
>
> consolation games were played as there were, but many were
>
> played to lower point totals.
>
>
>
> -Alan
>
thanks for the information, alan. interesting news.
> It was announced at the pre-tournament captain's meeting
>
> that consolation placement games were optional for the open,
>
> women's, and mixed divisions. I am surprised as many of the
>
> consolation games were played as there were, but many were
>
> played to lower point totals.
>
>
>
> -Alan
>
sean
anakin gerics
Oct 30, 2012, 9:16:17 AM10/30/12
to
This is not the same as losing on Saturday at nationals. You can say
you wanted to see how those games played out, I can say the results
wouldn't have been an accurate measure of anything.
---wouldn't the team with the most goals at the end of the game...be
the winner...and the other team, the loser?
seems an accurate measure of everything.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl
players are making and i will play the games out.
---doesn't sound like it....
sounds like you'd have an excuse to not play.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Make my position on the team next year dependent on how I perform in
those games and I will play the games out. Until then, I will choose
which games are important and which games are not.
---until then, you'll choose to quit?
~~~~~~~~~~~
As I said to Sean, until you've been there, you can't understand that
feeling and that choice.
---oh yeah...ya gotta be at a championship event to know the feeling
of winning and losing.....and quitting.
you wanted to see how those games played out, I can say the results
wouldn't have been an accurate measure of anything.
---wouldn't the team with the most goals at the end of the game...be
the winner...and the other team, the loser?
seems an accurate measure of everything.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl
players are making and i will play the games out.
---doesn't sound like it....
sounds like you'd have an excuse to not play.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Make my position on the team next year dependent on how I perform in
those games and I will play the games out. Until then, I will choose
which games are important and which games are not.
---until then, you'll choose to quit?
~~~~~~~~~~~
As I said to Sean, until you've been there, you can't understand that
feeling and that choice.
---oh yeah...ya gotta be at a championship event to know the feeling
of winning and losing.....and quitting.
anakin gerics
Oct 30, 2012, 9:17:29 AM10/30/12
to
> Ain't no n-teenth place game worth a torn ACL. Ultimate
> culture will survive.
~~~~~~~
---who tore an ACL in the n-th place game?
how many people didn't tear an ACL in the n-th place game?
dmmp
Oct 30, 2012, 10:36:00 AM10/30/12
to
> dmmp, pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl players are making and i will play the games out. Make my position on the team next year dependent on how I perform in those games and I will play the games out. Until then, I will choose which games are important and which games are not. As I said to Sean, until you've been there, you can't understand that feeling and that choice.
If money is the only thing that would keep you playing, then why are you playing to begin with? When I go to the tournament, I go with the understanding that only one team can win the championship and I go with the understanding that there are in fact consolation games and they are scheduled with the intention of being played out. I have been to tournaments that my team didn't reach expectations and we continued playing the rest of our games. Do I think we are great people for doing so? No, we were just doing what we are supposed to do and completing the tournament we joined.
I have been on a team that did forfeit games after losing unexpectedly. I was ashamed and embarrassed for our team. Our opponent waited around for us and was warming up when we decided to forfeit. I was against it. Our team thought we were better than that game so it wasn't worth playing. A complete lack of respect not just for the game, but for the other team as well.
And one of the things I hate more than anything is telling me that I can't understand your feelings. Basically just tell me I will never be that good, so I can't understand what its like to be good. I get worked up for games, I have emotional letdowns after games. Are they national caliber games? No. But they are just as important to me because they are the highest level I can get to. Just cause you are better doesn't mean we can't understand. Get off your high horse. I can understand. I understand perfectly actually. You think you are too good.
If money is the only thing that would keep you playing, then why are you playing to begin with? When I go to the tournament, I go with the understanding that only one team can win the championship and I go with the understanding that there are in fact consolation games and they are scheduled with the intention of being played out. I have been to tournaments that my team didn't reach expectations and we continued playing the rest of our games. Do I think we are great people for doing so? No, we were just doing what we are supposed to do and completing the tournament we joined.
I have been on a team that did forfeit games after losing unexpectedly. I was ashamed and embarrassed for our team. Our opponent waited around for us and was warming up when we decided to forfeit. I was against it. Our team thought we were better than that game so it wasn't worth playing. A complete lack of respect not just for the game, but for the other team as well.
And one of the things I hate more than anything is telling me that I can't understand your feelings. Basically just tell me I will never be that good, so I can't understand what its like to be good. I get worked up for games, I have emotional letdowns after games. Are they national caliber games? No. But they are just as important to me because they are the highest level I can get to. Just cause you are better doesn't mean we can't understand. Get off your high horse. I can understand. I understand perfectly actually. You think you are too good.
Ray Illian
Oct 30, 2012, 8:14:28 PM10/30/12
to
It seems that the USAU is still in transition between points
1 and 2 below.
As it stands, the players still paid to be there and I'm
assuming their fees covered most of the tournament costs.
The venue is in a location that guarantees almost no fans
outside of players. The live streaming of games was
excellent, but there were no cameras pointed at the 5-8
consolations games (that I'm aware of). Add to that the fact
that games are meaningless* with the new wildcard system and
you have a situation where there are few incentives for
players to play out these games.
*being waitlisted for the US Open may make these games
meaningful
Those few incentives may be love for the game, possible
bragging rights, a better finish to a team's season, spirit,
or making people who check scores on the score reporter
happy. But these are all highly subjective and will vary
from team to team. Which is why some teams forfeit these
games and others play them out.
And yes, you don't have to have been eliminated in quarters
to understand this (but it sure does help).
1 and 2 below.
As it stands, the players still paid to be there and I'm
assuming their fees covered most of the tournament costs.
The venue is in a location that guarantees almost no fans
outside of players. The live streaming of games was
excellent, but there were no cameras pointed at the 5-8
consolations games (that I'm aware of). Add to that the fact
that games are meaningless* with the new wildcard system and
you have a situation where there are few incentives for
players to play out these games.
*being waitlisted for the US Open may make these games
meaningful
Those few incentives may be love for the game, possible
bragging rights, a better finish to a team's season, spirit,
or making people who check scores on the score reporter
happy. But these are all highly subjective and will vary
from team to team. Which is why some teams forfeit these
games and others play them out.
And yes, you don't have to have been eliminated in quarters
to understand this (but it sure does help).
Adrian Yearwood
Oct 30, 2012, 8:14:53 PM10/30/12
to
I think what you guys are failing to consider is the massive
lineup for fish tacos. Sockeye and Chain made a judgement
call and guess what - they were eating, drinking, and
sitting pretty in the sun watching some sweet semi-finals
matchups while us suckers were duking it out in a
spectacular game-to-11 for 5th effing place. You tell me
who really won...
In all seriousness though, why does anyone care? We didn't.
lineup for fish tacos. Sockeye and Chain made a judgement
call and guess what - they were eating, drinking, and
sitting pretty in the sun watching some sweet semi-finals
matchups while us suckers were duking it out in a
spectacular game-to-11 for 5th effing place. You tell me
who really won...
In all seriousness though, why does anyone care? We didn't.
Fish
Oct 30, 2012, 8:40:09 PM10/30/12
to
ugh this thread is so stupid.
who cares who finishes fifth through eighth at nationals?
any team that makes quarters has higher aspirations than
fifth place. asking teams that just had their season crushed
to play meaningless games so people at home can be satisfied
is completely ridiculous.
did the celtics play a series with the spurs for third in
the NBA?
do the AFC and NFC championship losers play for third
place?
do the two losers of final four games play for third?
bronze medals are the only example of third place games
happening, and they sure as shit don't play out fifth place
games in the world cup or the olympics because nobody gives
a shit, and neither should you. get over it; you're not
entitled to extra games as a fan.
the old argument that "teams come a long way to play these
games and you should give them to courtesy" doesn't apply to
nationals where teams each play 7 games over a three-day
weekend, and where no team treats any game as a "building
opportunity" towards the next tournament. i'm with Reid.
fish
(not a sockeye fish)
who cares who finishes fifth through eighth at nationals?
any team that makes quarters has higher aspirations than
fifth place. asking teams that just had their season crushed
to play meaningless games so people at home can be satisfied
is completely ridiculous.
did the celtics play a series with the spurs for third in
the NBA?
do the AFC and NFC championship losers play for third
place?
do the two losers of final four games play for third?
bronze medals are the only example of third place games
happening, and they sure as shit don't play out fifth place
games in the world cup or the olympics because nobody gives
a shit, and neither should you. get over it; you're not
entitled to extra games as a fan.
the old argument that "teams come a long way to play these
games and you should give them to courtesy" doesn't apply to
nationals where teams each play 7 games over a three-day
weekend, and where no team treats any game as a "building
opportunity" towards the next tournament. i'm with Reid.
fish
(not a sockeye fish)
joaq
Oct 30, 2012, 9:00:09 PM10/30/12
to
Fish wrote on Tue, 30 October 2012 20:38
This.
anakin gerics
Oct 30, 2012, 11:03:52 PM10/30/12
to
watching some sweet semi-finals
> matchups
~~~~~~~~~~
> matchups
---staggered starts.
shorter final score.
shorter cap.
jeepers.
anakin gerics
Oct 30, 2012, 11:04:37 PM10/30/12
to
---....is lame?
disc...@yahoo.com
Oct 31, 2012, 12:49:06 AM10/31/12
to Adrian Yearwood
anakin gerics
Oct 31, 2012, 6:29:19 AM10/31/12
to
> > dmmp, pay me the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars that nfl players are making and i will play
---what does it take for ALLLLLL your other games?
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