A thrower is a switch hitter (throws comfortably with both left and
right hands), catches the disc in the red zone, looks up field,
establishes a left foot pivot for a right handed throw, sees nothing,
calls a time out. After the time out, switch hitter uses a right
pivot foot to step around a marker and throw a left handed backhand
score. Is this a travel? Must the original pivot be maintained?
I argue no, the thrower is free to establish a new pivot.
Hypotheticly: player slides to catch a disc. Ends up on their knees,
looks to make the quick throw, has nothing, calls time out. There is
no reasonable expectation that the thrower must resume the original
pivot (knees in this case scenerio).
If anyone can elucidate on the finer points of my query I would be
much obliged. I would be especially honored to hear from the rules
"heavy hitters".
1,000 Thanks,
MMM
PS
Don't steal my move! (but back me up in the ensuing travel call)
I think the rule is pretty straight forward, time-out doesn't change
your pivot.
This was dealt with very recently:
CVH (the heaviest of the hitters) says no travel, but not everyone agreed.
> I'd call travel.
> XIII. D
> Traveling: The thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot
> on the field and may not change that pivot until the throw is
> released. Failure to do so is a travel and results in a stoppage of
> play and a check.
>
> I think the rule is pretty straight forward, time-out doesn't change
> your pivot.
Then why do we let players that call a time out after they have established
a pivot while on their knees to resume play standing up? I think the
important think is re-establishing the pivot on the "appropriate spot," not
re-establishing with the exact same body part. A defender should be looking
to see which foot/body part is placed at the exact spot where the pivot was
established before the time out.
VI. Time Outs
B. 5. c. The player who had possession restarts play with a check at the
spot of the pivot and the marker resumes the stall count with the word
łstalling˛ followed by the last number uttered prior to the time-out plus
one.
There is no mention of placing the same body part at the spot of the pivot.
I imagine the possibility wasn't really considered (at least initially) but
think of an injury timeout here. Suppose the thrower was replaced- righty for
lefty. Would the lefty have to use the same pivot foot also?
Gimp
Personally I think the rules are unclear in this area, but I lean
towards an interpretation that requires the same pivot foot after a
stoppage of play. Mostly because I want it to be that way.
A bunch of heavy hitters in this thread:
http://tinyurl.com/4hb5j
And here's another:
http://tinyurl.com/6haup
Frank
i.e.:
Decision 487:
q:Semi ridiculous scenario.....
a: NOT TRAVEL.
1-1/4 Player Discovers Own Ball Is in Hole After Playing Wrong Ball
Q. A player played to a blind green and putted what he thought was his
ball. He then discovered that his own ball was in the hole and that
the ball he had putted was a wrong ball. What is the ruling?
A. Since the play of the hole was completed when the original ball was
holed (Rule 1-1), the player was not in breach of Rule 15 for
subsequently playing a wrong ball.
> I think the rule is pretty straight forward, time-out doesn't change
> your pivot.
I'd tend to agree, but this brings up another interesting (very
hypothetical and highly unlikely) scenario. Suppose you caught a disc
and landed on your knees/butt/whatever. If you then proceeded to fake
from your knees (establishing your knee as your pivot) and then called
a time out, what happens when you return from the TO? Theoretically
you should have to re-establish your pivot and get back on to your
knees... But I'd imagine most people would just start on their feet.
Not too likely for sure, but a funny image none the less.
Sam
Good question though, something I'll have to find out...
Mike
bosult...@yahoo.com (BostonUltiGuy) wrote in message news:<e8ef8acd.0408...@posting.google.com>...
Additional questions--
1. If I catch the disc and don't pivot have I established a pivot
foot? Am I fine just standing there until I'm ready to throw and then
pivot off whichever foot I feel like?
2. If I set a pivot foot and then change my pivot foot (a travel),
can I switch my pivot foot after play resumes?
3. If I set a pivot foot, and then change it early in the count but
no one calls it, can travel be called when I release the disc?
Its happened to me before when I was marking. I didn't call a travel
because I figured it would take at least 2 minutes to explain why it
was a violation assuming anyone even believed that it happened in the
first place. It was also just pickup.
Other than that, I have nothing against switch hitters. I just wish
more of them played for my team. hehe.
Justin
Nope.
The situation of establishing the pivot out of a timeout call is
slightly different from those discussions, which dealt with after a
violation call, I'm pretty sure. Mostly the difference is in what
Gimp mentioned, that players can reset after a timeout, but they
should return to their respective positions after a violation. CVH
seems to believe that a player should be able to fake on their knees,
travel, and get to set a different pivot at the same spot after the
violation. Some agreed, and some did not, like me. I see Gimp's
point, though, about resetting after a T.O. Makes total sense.
A better reason not to call travel would have been that no travel was
committed. But you're free to adopt your own reasons for your own conduct.
Btw - Was it really a timeout called, or just a foul on the marker with a
checked disc? I don't recall...
Only things I remember are the forehand fake, then the disc being tagged
in... and your 6'2" pivot easily getting around the mark, who assumed you
would be starting with a left pivot foot... goal. The mark was aghast that
he could get broken so easily, wondering what happened... as was I, until I
thought about it for a couple seconds. Just tell me that wasn't your play
call ;)
Although I agree with BostonUltiGuy that the rule, as written, is pretty
straightforward (no pivot switching allowed), I think that a few adjustments
could provide some excitement without sacrificing intent (not to gain an
unfair advantage). Namely:
- No switching pivot point on most stoppages of play (travel, foul, pick,
etc.). This would just be silly, as I think it is unnecessary to reward the
ambidextrous "just because they can do it."
- After a timeout, your pivot point may change, but that point must be
identical to where you set down the TO marker (disc). Accordingly, when
timeouts are called, the disc must be placed at the current pivot point.
(There's probably already something like this that I'm too lazy to look up).
- When the handler returns from huddle to his TO marker prior to play
resuming, the disc cannot be picked up until a defending player acknowledges
they are aware of the pivot point.
I think the only unfair advantage is when the thrower "tricks" the marker by
switching pivot feet from what is reasonably expected.
The answer for those that ask, "Then why do we allow people that call
timeouts from their knees to check it in from their feet"... is because you
don't know the rule and you're just doing the nice thing. Good for you.
Brian
Santa Fe Savage 7 lover
"Mike Grant" <mjgr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f97c1e4f.04082...@posting.google.com...
What's the travel here? If both feet are planted there is no rule as to which
foot must be the pivot relative to which hand is used to throw. It's only
assumed that a righty should pivot with his left foot because of the mechanical
advantage. When we tell a righty rookie to pivot off his left foot- we aren't
telling him a rule- just a common sense technique.
Gimp
> The answer for those that ask, "Then why do we allow people that call
> timeouts from their knees to check it in from their feet"... is because you
> don't know the rule and you're just doing the nice thing.
Oh you mean the rule you made up that does not appear in the official rules?
XIII. The Thrower
D. Traveling: The thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate
spot on the field and may not change that pivot until the throw is
released. Failure to do so is a travel and results in a stoppage of
play and a check. The continuation rule [XVI.G] applies.
1. The thrower must keep all or part of the pivot in contact with a
single spot on the field. If the thrower loses contact with the
appropriate spot, the thrower has traveled.
2. Whenever a pivot spot is defined in the rules and the thrower fails
to establish contact with that spot, the thrower has traveled.
What I failed to take into consideration was:
6. Exceptions:
a) A non-standing player may lose contact with a pivot point in order
to stand up without a traveling violation provided there was no
previous throw or fake attempt.
Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that a player gaining possession
from their knees who makes a throw or fake attempt, then calls timeout
may not check the disc in from a standing position. However a player
who makes no fake or throw attempts & calls a timeout from a knee may
"lose contact with a pivot point," in this case his knee, "to stand
up."
I don't see that there's much left to interpret... yes, even after
reading CVH's take on continuous contact after a
travel/violation/timeout.
Elizabeth D Murray <emu...@sful.org> wrote in message news:<BD55FF97.11E1A%emu...@sful.org>...
I kneel, fake, call TO, stand and my opponent calls travel. I still set the
same standing pivot foot, repeat.
Observer is called in to clarify whether or not I can 'kneel, fake, call TO,
and **thereafter take a standing pivot**."
Or perhaps:
Observer is called in to clarify whether or not I can 'kneel, fake, call TO,
and **thereafter pivot on the other foot assuming I have placed it back in
the agreed upon place**."
I do see definite advantages to him throwing short OPEN side lefty
backhands instead of the Howitzer...this should be strongly
encouraged, and no travel should ever be called, regardless of pivot,
steps, etc (again, backed up by solid evidence...see viv.23.iii)
Daryl
However, the thrower has to establish a pivot foot at the "appropriate
spot". If switching hands with the disk results in moving the pivot
from what the marker considers to be the "appropriate spot", the
marker can call a travel.
>
> A better reason not to call travel would have been that no travel was
> committed. But you're free to adopt your own reasons for your own conduct.
RULE XIII. D. Traveling: The thrower must establish a pivot at the
I agree with Darryl in that using creativity (within the rules) when
throwing should always be encouraged, and that most travel calls are a
result of lazy marking in the first place. In order to call a travel
you must be looking at the foot, which means you're looking at the
wrong part of the thrower's body and your mark is useless. Travel
calls ruin the game. The only time I would call a travel is in an
observer-less game to negate a cheating thrower who consistently dives
into you at stall nine, launches it, and calls foul when he initiates
the contact.
Mike
justi...@yahoo.com (Justin) wrote in message news:<b2d24402.04090...@posting.google.com>...
> 'Appropriate' spot on the field means in the area where you catch the
> disc, not an 'exact' spot on the field. For example, now that I can't
> throw a righty flick I have to use a lefty backhand, but I prefer a
> righty backhand over a lefty flick. When I catch the disc I keep my
> two feet on the ground and sometimes put the disc in both hands,
> sometimes in a righty flick grip, and sometimes lefty flick grip. When
> I see a cutter coming I make my decision then, so I may pivot with my
> left foot, or I may pivot with my right foot. Either way, I establish
> a pivot foot as soon as I've committed to one side of the field and it
> can't be changed after that.
I think this is a vaild approach as long as you caught the disc in the
normal flow of play (which is clearly what you are talking about since
you said "when I catch the disc"). But if you had to walk the disc to
the appropriate spot and ground-check it, you have established one
unique pivot foot and you have to stick with that one. I don't buy the
"keep your feet together and tap the disc between them" argument -
that's a clear effort to subvert the rules.
> I agree with Darryl in that using creativity (within the rules) when
> throwing should always be encouraged, and that most travel calls are a
> result of lazy marking in the first place. In order to call a travel
> you must be looking at the foot,
I just watched the "three man marker drill" highlights in stacked.
Travel. ;)
which means you're looking at the
> wrong part of the thrower's body and your mark is useless.
It seems possible to note the position of the throwers foot when you
start marking, and steal another glance if the thrower pivots past you.
> Travel calls ruin the game.
Couldn't one also argue that excessive travelling ruins the game? I
don't really think either is true, but both are just points of view.
-Adam
If you mark me wrong, that is your problem.
With that said...
1. A person standing on two feet has not declared a pivot foot. At
which point the thrower lifts one foot off of the ground the pivot is
designated to be the other foot.
2. Everyone gets to reset after a timeout... Why not the thrower?
3. After a travel call, doesn't the offending player reset the disc
to the point of the travel call? Telling me that I travelled with my
left foot requires me to set up another pivot on my left foot is
ludicrous. Where is the mention as to which foot?
4. And this deal about being on your knees....Get your own thread.
Timoteo
For example: switching hands and the pivot foot to allow the thrower
to release from in the end zone is a travel. I think in those types
of situations, the thrower is changing the 'appropriate spot' on the
field to their advantage.
Also, keep in mind that on many catches, the thrower has already used
up the number of steps from the point they actually caught the disc.
(XVC "After catching a pass, the receiver is only allowed the fewest
number of steps required to come to a stop and establish a pivot.) If
the swtich thrower uses the switch in order to obtain an additional
step, above and beyond that allowed by the rule, it is a travel.