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Switch Hitters pivot foot rule clarification

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Matthew Marley Mitchell

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Aug 27, 2004, 12:18:12 AM8/27/04
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Hypotheticly:

A thrower is a switch hitter (throws comfortably with both left and
right hands), catches the disc in the red zone, looks up field,
establishes a left foot pivot for a right handed throw, sees nothing,
calls a time out. After the time out, switch hitter uses a right
pivot foot to step around a marker and throw a left handed backhand
score. Is this a travel? Must the original pivot be maintained?

I argue no, the thrower is free to establish a new pivot.

Hypotheticly: player slides to catch a disc. Ends up on their knees,
looks to make the quick throw, has nothing, calls time out. There is
no reasonable expectation that the thrower must resume the original
pivot (knees in this case scenerio).

If anyone can elucidate on the finer points of my query I would be
much obliged. I would be especially honored to hear from the rules
"heavy hitters".

1,000 Thanks,


MMM

PS
Don't steal my move! (but back me up in the ensuing travel call)

BostonUltiGuy

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Aug 27, 2004, 9:47:24 AM8/27/04
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mmm1...@f-m.fm (Matthew Marley Mitchell) wrote in message news:<67c72eb1.04082...@posting.google.com>...
I'd call travel.
XIII. D
Traveling: The thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot
on the field and may not change that pivot until the throw is
released. Failure to do so is a travel and results in a stoppage of
play and a check.

I think the rule is pretty straight forward, time-out doesn't change
your pivot.

Peter Washington

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Aug 27, 2004, 12:00:38 PM8/27/04
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> A thrower is a switch hitter (throws comfortably with both left and
> right hands), catches the disc in the red zone, looks up field,
> establishes a left foot pivot for a right handed throw, sees nothing,
> calls a time out. After the time out, switch hitter uses a right
> pivot foot to step around a marker and throw a left handed backhand
> score. Is this a travel? Must the original pivot be maintained?

This was dealt with very recently:

http://tinyurl.com/49bt3

CVH (the heaviest of the hitters) says no travel, but not everyone agreed.


Elizabeth D Murray

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Aug 27, 2004, 12:01:10 PM8/27/04
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On 8/27/04 6:47 AM, in article
e8ef8acd.0408...@posting.google.com, "BostonUltiGuy"
<bosult...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'd call travel.
> XIII. D
> Traveling: The thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot
> on the field and may not change that pivot until the throw is
> released. Failure to do so is a travel and results in a stoppage of
> play and a check.
>
> I think the rule is pretty straight forward, time-out doesn't change
> your pivot.

Then why do we let players that call a time out after they have established
a pivot while on their knees to resume play standing up? I think the
important think is re-establishing the pivot on the "appropriate spot," not
re-establishing with the exact same body part. A defender should be looking
to see which foot/body part is placed at the exact spot where the pivot was
established before the time out.

VI. Time Outs
B. 5. c. The player who had possession restarts play with a check at the
spot of the pivot and the marker resumes the stall count with the word
łstalling˛ followed by the last number uttered prior to the time-out plus
one.

There is no mention of placing the same body part at the spot of the pivot.

Gimpeltf

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Aug 27, 2004, 12:11:56 PM8/27/04
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Considering everyone else on the field can reset their positions why wouldn't
the thrower? The timeout rule only specifies that the thrower must return to
the same spot.
c) The player who had possession restarts play with a check at the spot of the
pivot

I imagine the possibility wasn't really considered (at least initially) but
think of an injury timeout here. Suppose the thrower was replaced- righty for
lefty. Would the lefty have to use the same pivot foot also?
Gimp

Frank Kearney

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Aug 27, 2004, 12:28:23 PM8/27/04
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> A thrower is a switch hitter (throws comfortably with both left and
> right hands), catches the disc in the red zone, looks up field,
> establishes a left foot pivot for a right handed throw, sees nothing,
> calls a time out. After the time out, switch hitter uses a right
> pivot foot to step around a marker and throw a left handed backhand
> score. Is this a travel? Must the original pivot be maintained?
>
> I argue no, the thrower is free to establish a new pivot.
>

Personally I think the rules are unclear in this area, but I lean
towards an interpretation that requires the same pivot foot after a
stoppage of play. Mostly because I want it to be that way.

A bunch of heavy hitters in this thread:
http://tinyurl.com/4hb5j

And here's another:
http://tinyurl.com/6haup

Frank

Keith Talent

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Aug 27, 2004, 1:37:36 PM8/27/04
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the rules of ultimate should have "decisions" such as in ball golf.

i.e.:

Decision 487:

q:Semi ridiculous scenario.....

a: NOT TRAVEL.


1-1/4 Player Discovers Own Ball Is in Hole After Playing Wrong Ball

Q. A player played to a blind green and putted what he thought was his
ball. He then discovered that his own ball was in the hole and that
the ball he had putted was a wrong ball. What is the ruling?
A. Since the play of the hole was completed when the original ball was
holed (Rule 1-1), the player was not in breach of Rule 15 for
subsequently playing a wrong ball.

Sam Rapson

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Aug 27, 2004, 2:20:25 PM8/27/04
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bosult...@yahoo.com (BostonUltiGuy) wrote in message news:<e8ef8acd.0408...@posting.google.com>...

> I think the rule is pretty straight forward, time-out doesn't change
> your pivot.

I'd tend to agree, but this brings up another interesting (very
hypothetical and highly unlikely) scenario. Suppose you caught a disc
and landed on your knees/butt/whatever. If you then proceeded to fake
from your knees (establishing your knee as your pivot) and then called
a time out, what happens when you return from the TO? Theoretically
you should have to re-establish your pivot and get back on to your
knees... But I'd imagine most people would just start on their feet.
Not too likely for sure, but a funny image none the less.

Sam

Mike Grant

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Aug 27, 2004, 2:31:26 PM8/27/04
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I just had this exact same discussion at Worlds with one of the
Condors. I'm currently using both hands to throw due to an injury
(lefty and righty backhands)and I caught the disc near the goaline in
our finals game...I then proceeded to use my left pivot foot while
faking a righty flick. I called timeout and then switched pivot feet
afterwards. I thought it was valid at the time but the Condor player
said he thought it was a travel (it wasn't one of the 74 calls that
game though b/c he never called it).

Good question though, something I'll have to find out...

Mike

bosult...@yahoo.com (BostonUltiGuy) wrote in message news:<e8ef8acd.0408...@posting.google.com>...

mfrancis

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Aug 27, 2004, 3:28:49 PM8/27/04
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> Traveling: The thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot
> on the field and may not change that pivot until the throw is
> released. Failure to do so is a travel and results in a stoppage of
> play and a check.
>
> I think the rule is pretty straight forward, time-out doesn't change
> your pivot.

Additional questions--
1. If I catch the disc and don't pivot have I established a pivot
foot? Am I fine just standing there until I'm ready to throw and then
pivot off whichever foot I feel like?

2. If I set a pivot foot and then change my pivot foot (a travel),
can I switch my pivot foot after play resumes?

3. If I set a pivot foot, and then change it early in the count but
no one calls it, can travel be called when I release the disc?

Justin

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Aug 27, 2004, 4:01:10 PM8/27/04
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The more interesting dilemma occurs when a 'switch hitter' plants both
feet more or less simultaneously, then, after the mark is set,
switches hands with the disc and steps away from the mark using what
would have been the pivot foot had the disc remained in the other
throwing hand.

Its happened to me before when I was marking. I didn't call a travel
because I figured it would take at least 2 minutes to explain why it
was a violation assuming anyone even believed that it happened in the
first place. It was also just pickup.

Other than that, I have nothing against switch hitters. I just wish
more of them played for my team. hehe.

Justin

Brian P. Canniff

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Aug 27, 2004, 4:11:25 PM8/27/04
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"mfrancis" <mfufr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ce91a8f.0408...@posting.google.com...

> 3. If I set a pivot foot, and then change it early in the count but
> no one calls it, can travel be called when I release the disc?

Nope.


Redneck Bavarian

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Aug 27, 2004, 4:25:10 PM8/27/04
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Hmmm. I think that the important thing here is maintaining the same
pivot point on the field. I see no problem with coming out of a
time-out and using the other foot as the pivot foot. You would have
to, however, place the new pivot foot on the same spot used before the
time-out. Does that make sense? For example, let's say you catch the
disc and establish a right-handed thrower's pivot (left foot). After
several seconds you call time-out and your team huddles for the plan.
It is decided that you can use that sweet lefty flick you've been
working on for the past year to fool the marker and get a quick throw
off. All you have to do is step out with your left foot and easily
throw past the 'unprepared' marker. BUT, you must place your right
foot - a lefty's pivot foot - at the same spot previously occupied by
your left foot, or former pivot foot. A clever marker might notice
that you square up with the disc Southpaw-stlye, but I believe that it
would be a legitimate maneuver.

judd

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Aug 27, 2004, 6:00:06 PM8/27/04
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fkea...@yahoo.com (Frank Kearney) wrote in message news:<cb552857.0408...@posting.google.com>...

The situation of establishing the pivot out of a timeout call is
slightly different from those discussions, which dealt with after a
violation call, I'm pretty sure. Mostly the difference is in what
Gimp mentioned, that players can reset after a timeout, but they
should return to their respective positions after a violation. CVH
seems to believe that a player should be able to fake on their knees,
travel, and get to set a different pivot at the same spot after the
violation. Some agreed, and some did not, like me. I see Gimp's
point, though, about resetting after a T.O. Makes total sense.

Peter Washington

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Aug 27, 2004, 6:06:00 PM8/27/04
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> The more interesting dilemma occurs when a 'switch hitter' plants both
> feet more or less simultaneously, then, after the mark is set,
> switches hands with the disc and steps away from the mark using what
> would have been the pivot foot had the disc remained in the other
> throwing hand.
>
> Its happened to me before when I was marking. I didn't call a travel
> because I figured it would take at least 2 minutes to explain why it
> was a violation assuming anyone even believed that it happened in the
> first place.

A better reason not to call travel would have been that no travel was
committed. But you're free to adopt your own reasons for your own conduct.


D

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Aug 27, 2004, 6:55:08 PM8/27/04
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I wondered if anyone else noticed this play.

Btw - Was it really a timeout called, or just a foul on the marker with a
checked disc? I don't recall...

Only things I remember are the forehand fake, then the disc being tagged
in... and your 6'2" pivot easily getting around the mark, who assumed you
would be starting with a left pivot foot... goal. The mark was aghast that
he could get broken so easily, wondering what happened... as was I, until I
thought about it for a couple seconds. Just tell me that wasn't your play
call ;)

Although I agree with BostonUltiGuy that the rule, as written, is pretty
straightforward (no pivot switching allowed), I think that a few adjustments
could provide some excitement without sacrificing intent (not to gain an
unfair advantage). Namely:
- No switching pivot point on most stoppages of play (travel, foul, pick,
etc.). This would just be silly, as I think it is unnecessary to reward the
ambidextrous "just because they can do it."
- After a timeout, your pivot point may change, but that point must be
identical to where you set down the TO marker (disc). Accordingly, when
timeouts are called, the disc must be placed at the current pivot point.
(There's probably already something like this that I'm too lazy to look up).
- When the handler returns from huddle to his TO marker prior to play
resuming, the disc cannot be picked up until a defending player acknowledges
they are aware of the pivot point.

I think the only unfair advantage is when the thrower "tricks" the marker by
switching pivot feet from what is reasonably expected.

The answer for those that ask, "Then why do we allow people that call
timeouts from their knees to check it in from their feet"... is because you
don't know the rule and you're just doing the nice thing. Good for you.

Brian
Santa Fe Savage 7 lover

"Mike Grant" <mjgr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f97c1e4f.04082...@posting.google.com...

Gimpeltf

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Aug 27, 2004, 7:04:47 PM8/27/04
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>The more interesting dilemma occurs when a 'switch hitter' plants both
>feet more or less simultaneously, then, after the mark is set,
>switches hands with the disc and steps away from the mark using what
>would have been the pivot foot had the disc remained in the other
>throwing hand.
>
>Its happened to me before when I was marking. I didn't call a travel
>because I figured it would take at least 2 minutes to explain why it
>was a violation assuming anyone even believed that it happened in the
>first place. It was also just pickup.

What's the travel here? If both feet are planted there is no rule as to which
foot must be the pivot relative to which hand is used to throw. It's only
assumed that a righty should pivot with his left foot because of the mechanical
advantage. When we tell a righty rookie to pivot off his left foot- we aren't
telling him a rule- just a common sense technique.
Gimp

Elizabeth D Murray

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Aug 28, 2004, 12:58:57 PM8/28/04
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On 8/27/04 3:55 PM, in article 2p9sedF...@uni-berlin.de, "D"
<recogniz...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The answer for those that ask, "Then why do we allow people that call
> timeouts from their knees to check it in from their feet"... is because you
> don't know the rule and you're just doing the nice thing.

Oh you mean the rule you made up that does not appear in the official rules?

D

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Aug 30, 2004, 3:50:13 AM8/30/04
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Cute, but no. I was referring to the rule that says:

XIII. The Thrower
D. Traveling: The thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate


spot on the field and may not change that pivot until the throw is
released. Failure to do so is a travel and results in a stoppage of

play and a check. The continuation rule [XVI.G] applies.
1. The thrower must keep all or part of the pivot in contact with a
single spot on the field. If the thrower loses contact with the
appropriate spot, the thrower has traveled.
2. Whenever a pivot spot is defined in the rules and the thrower fails
to establish contact with that spot, the thrower has traveled.

What I failed to take into consideration was:
6. Exceptions:
a) A non-standing player may lose contact with a pivot point in order
to stand up without a traveling violation provided there was no
previous throw or fake attempt.

Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that a player gaining possession
from their knees who makes a throw or fake attempt, then calls timeout
may not check the disc in from a standing position. However a player
who makes no fake or throw attempts & calls a timeout from a knee may
"lose contact with a pivot point," in this case his knee, "to stand
up."

I don't see that there's much left to interpret... yes, even after
reading CVH's take on continuous contact after a
travel/violation/timeout.


Elizabeth D Murray <emu...@sful.org> wrote in message news:<BD55FF97.11E1A%emu...@sful.org>...

Brian P. Canniff

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Aug 30, 2004, 10:23:57 AM8/30/04
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More interestingly: how are Observers going to be trained to make this call?

I kneel, fake, call TO, stand and my opponent calls travel. I still set the
same standing pivot foot, repeat.

Observer is called in to clarify whether or not I can 'kneel, fake, call TO,
and **thereafter take a standing pivot**."

Or perhaps:
Observer is called in to clarify whether or not I can 'kneel, fake, call TO,
and **thereafter pivot on the other foot assuming I have placed it back in
the agreed upon place**."


daryl

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Aug 30, 2004, 1:13:42 PM8/30/04
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No good can come of Mike learning to throw the short lefty breakmark.
This is definitely against the rules (see xii.2.69).

I do see definite advantages to him throwing short OPEN side lefty
backhands instead of the Howitzer...this should be strongly
encouraged, and no travel should ever be called, regardless of pivot,
steps, etc (again, backed up by solid evidence...see viv.23.iii)

Daryl

Justin

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Sep 1, 2004, 10:43:01 AM9/1/04
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Your remark regarding my conduct is misplaced. I have never called a
travel on anyone for switching hands with the disc if that resulted in
my mistakedly making an assumption as to which foot was a pivot foot.

However, the thrower has to establish a pivot foot at the "appropriate
spot". If switching hands with the disk results in moving the pivot
from what the marker considers to be the "appropriate spot", the
marker can call a travel.

>
> A better reason not to call travel would have been that no travel was
> committed. But you're free to adopt your own reasons for your own conduct.

RULE XIII. D. Traveling: The thrower must establish a pivot at the

Mike Grant

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Sep 1, 2004, 4:32:20 PM9/1/04
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'Appropriate' spot on the field means in the area where you catch the
disc, not an 'exact' spot on the field. For example, now that I can't
throw a righty flick I have to use a lefty backhand, but I prefer a
righty backhand over a lefty flick. When I catch the disc I keep my
two feet on the ground and sometimes put the disc in both hands,
sometimes in a righty flick grip, and sometimes lefty flick grip. When
I see a cutter coming I make my decision then, so I may pivot with my
left foot, or I may pivot with my right foot. Either way, I establish
a pivot foot as soon as I've committed to one side of the field and it
can't be changed after that.

I agree with Darryl in that using creativity (within the rules) when
throwing should always be encouraged, and that most travel calls are a
result of lazy marking in the first place. In order to call a travel
you must be looking at the foot, which means you're looking at the
wrong part of the thrower's body and your mark is useless. Travel
calls ruin the game. The only time I would call a travel is in an
observer-less game to negate a cheating thrower who consistently dives
into you at stall nine, launches it, and calls foul when he initiates
the contact.

Mike

justi...@yahoo.com (Justin) wrote in message news:<b2d24402.04090...@posting.google.com>...

Adam Tarr

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Sep 1, 2004, 6:11:08 PM9/1/04
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Mike Grant wrote:

> 'Appropriate' spot on the field means in the area where you catch the
> disc, not an 'exact' spot on the field. For example, now that I can't
> throw a righty flick I have to use a lefty backhand, but I prefer a
> righty backhand over a lefty flick. When I catch the disc I keep my
> two feet on the ground and sometimes put the disc in both hands,
> sometimes in a righty flick grip, and sometimes lefty flick grip. When
> I see a cutter coming I make my decision then, so I may pivot with my
> left foot, or I may pivot with my right foot. Either way, I establish
> a pivot foot as soon as I've committed to one side of the field and it
> can't be changed after that.

I think this is a vaild approach as long as you caught the disc in the
normal flow of play (which is clearly what you are talking about since
you said "when I catch the disc"). But if you had to walk the disc to
the appropriate spot and ground-check it, you have established one
unique pivot foot and you have to stick with that one. I don't buy the
"keep your feet together and tap the disc between them" argument -
that's a clear effort to subvert the rules.

> I agree with Darryl in that using creativity (within the rules) when
> throwing should always be encouraged, and that most travel calls are a
> result of lazy marking in the first place. In order to call a travel
> you must be looking at the foot,

I just watched the "three man marker drill" highlights in stacked.
Travel. ;)

which means you're looking at the
> wrong part of the thrower's body and your mark is useless.

It seems possible to note the position of the throwers foot when you
start marking, and steal another glance if the thrower pivots past you.

> Travel calls ruin the game.

Couldn't one also argue that excessive travelling ruins the game? I
don't really think either is true, but both are just points of view.

-Adam

timoteo

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Sep 1, 2004, 11:14:33 PM9/1/04
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As an ambidextrous thrower, I take offense at the sneaky underhanded
way in which the posts on this thread appear to make us dual aspect
players criminals to the spirit of the game..;)

If you mark me wrong, that is your problem.

With that said...
1. A person standing on two feet has not declared a pivot foot. At
which point the thrower lifts one foot off of the ground the pivot is
designated to be the other foot.
2. Everyone gets to reset after a timeout... Why not the thrower?
3. After a travel call, doesn't the offending player reset the disc
to the point of the travel call? Telling me that I travelled with my
left foot requires me to set up another pivot on my left foot is
ludicrous. Where is the mention as to which foot?
4. And this deal about being on your knees....Get your own thread.

Timoteo

Justin

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Sep 2, 2004, 12:34:02 PM9/2/04
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Mike (and Adam below): I agree with your comments. All I am saying
is that there is a judgment call. When the thrower has not moved
either foot, the rules allow (and should allow) the thrower a
reasonable opportunity to use either foot as a pivot foot. However,
the rules do not (and should not) allow the thrower to mislead the
marker by changing the spot from which the disc is being played.

For example: switching hands and the pivot foot to allow the thrower
to release from in the end zone is a travel. I think in those types
of situations, the thrower is changing the 'appropriate spot' on the
field to their advantage.

Also, keep in mind that on many catches, the thrower has already used
up the number of steps from the point they actually caught the disc.
(XVC "After catching a pass, the receiver is only allowed the fewest
number of steps required to come to a stop and establish a pivot.) If
the swtich thrower uses the switch in order to obtain an additional
step, above and beyond that allowed by the rule, it is a travel.

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