Teaching the flick (questions)

[neurodancer]

I have not found this an easy throw to teach people. The ones who get
it after five minutes were very gifted confident athletes to begin
with, a lot of people take years to get it down. Any hints? I was
always told to tell a newbie to release perpindicular to the ground (so
it won't turn over) but after 10 minutes they can see "that's not how
you do it". How about elbow placement, how far out from the body? New
school vs. old school grips? How do you teach wristsnap if the kid
ain't a shortstop to begin with? I play with a bunch of kids in
Brooklyn and would like to do a better job of showing them how to throw
the forehand, which they all want desperately to learn. It's so damn
instictive for me that I have trouble breaking it down to its component
parts.
Thanks,
ND

[Rob]

One thing I find effective in teaching the flick is to tell them to
snap their wrist harder than they think they should. Too often proper
form is negated due lack of spin. Once they see the importance of the
spin, you can start teaching them how to control it.

Rob

[Ted]

As far as not being able to break down the component parts, try
learning to throw with your off-hand. It'll help you recall what it was
like before your flick was second nature (and as a bonus, you'll be one
step closer to being a triple threat!)
-t

[TF]

ND,

I am a Middle School PE Teacher who has taught thousands of kids to
throw the flick. I usually start off by having them gripping the disc
with the index and middle finger together and against the inside rim.
They must also grip the disc tightly. Have them put their elbow against
their side, their wrist at or below their waist, and the disc
perpendicular to the ground. The reason for having them put their elbow
against thier side is to make them concentrate on snapping their wrist
and not using their arm. Have them square their body to the target,
step out with their throwing side foot (breaking the mark). They need
to look at their target before, during and after the throw. The throw
needs to be as much snap of the wrist to create spin, which will keep
the disc from turning over and wobbling. You are right, some kids get
it right away and other need to work at it for a long time. I have had
good success teaching my students this way. Once they learn how to
throw the flick, you will see them taking the elbow off their side, as
well as, other variations on the skill.

Good luck!

[ripple...@yahoo.com]

I always tell people to literally put their elbow on their hip and
leave it there. Even after they have released the disc. Most poeple,
when starting, put too much arm into it and keeping your elbow planted
on your hip keeps that from happening. Start out about 15 ft and get
farther away as they get better. After they understand that it is, in
fact, all in the wrist, they can try and put more arm into it to
increase the spin and distance. It worked with a bunch of french kids.
If you do try it, post again and lemme know the results.

[doub...@gmail.com]

I see this taught to beginners and see some of them never get past it.
Or, some will get their elbow to move out a little but not much. It
becomes so comfortable they handicap themselves with this form. Also,
their throws tend to lack touch and only travel at fastball speed.

2) Motion Windup, Swing, release, follow-through.

Wind-up: There are a couple of methods out there. The one I don't
like to teach first and use as a last resort is telling the student to
lock their elbow by their side and just use only their wrist to flick
the disc. This could potentially handicap them to throw this way for a
long time.

Every good thrower has a typical wind-up. The elbow comes up a little
and goes back a little. It's like throwing a soft elbow to knudge your
friend. If you freeze frame after the windup, the disc is
perpendicular or at a 45 degree to the ground. The underside of the
disc is pointing upward and not downward though. The wrist and arm
is straight and the disc is not hanging.

Swing: The elbow, which is up and back a little, now snaps down and
forward. This gets your forearm to swing up and around the elbow
joint. The forearm snaps up and around the elbow, and the entire arm
will be straight for a split second. When the arm is straigth for just
a moment, it is pointing downward at about 30-45 degrees, and also
slightly forward. (This allows the disc to be thrown with a little
invert, thus a flat throw). New throwers have a hard time with
getting their arm entirely straight during this snap process. Baseball
players have an especially hard time. It is possible though with some
practice.

Release: As the arm snaps straight and forward, the wrist will
automatically cock back. NOTE, you do not need to emphasis cocking
the wrist back too much. It will naturally happen. Just relax your
wrist and wave your arm back and forth. Now, snap the wrist naturally
forward to put spin on the disc and release the disc off the fingers.

* During the Swing and Release, the hardest thing I notice for kids is
to 1) get their arm straight 2) keep their palm facing upward during
the throw. They want to turn their hand over, which consequentially
will make the disc turn over furing flight. A tip I like to give is
have them imagine they are spiderman shooting webbing out of their
wrists. Keep that palm up!

Follow-through: Kids tend to followthrough like throwing a ball.
Their arm will rotate over, the hand will rotate over and the palm will
be facing down, the arm will swing wildly to one side.

Get them to follow-through by pointing their arm and hand at the
target, at about waist level to start. Keep that palm up as well on
the follow through.

If they are having the most trouble ever, then I will go back to the
elbow-by-side method. Although, I don't teach it with their elbow by
their side. Get that elbow to come out a little.

xx

[Ca$h]

Stand next to a pole so that it is about a foot or so off to your
forehand side and about 6in in front of you. Try and throw a forehand
straight ahead. If your forearm hits the pole when you try to
throw...it's gonna hurt. But you'll eventually learn to snap your
wrist and throw the frisbee...if you don't break your arm first. :)

[Heino...@hotmail.com]

Keep throwers close together and have them try to keep the velocity of
their throws down when learning. Proper technique takes time and bad
habbits form when you try to throw the disc farther and harder than you
are ready to. It's also what your goal is. If you want instant
gratification with a one day learning curve, teach the elbow on hip
approach. Otherwise, let the thrower work through the process of using
his wrist, arm, shoulder and hips to throw the disc.

[Patimus Maximus]

I am surprised the following instruction technique has not been
mentioned...as it has worked like a charm numerous times for me.
Usually, a new flick thrower will feel a strong urge to swing their arm
(like when throwing a football). To stifle this incorrect tendency,
tell your (right-handed) student to grab and hold in place the right
wrist with his left hand and then throw. Vice-versa for lefties.
Holding the arm forces the student to use the wrist and learn that 80%
of flick power is in the wrist.

Also, I have a comment on telling students to hold their elbow against
the body. I have seen it take years for a dude to unlearn that bad
habit. Students would be much better off learning the proper technique
from the start. Get that elbow out away from the body from the start.

[Tae Bo]

It's like snapping a towel.

[Joe Buck]

Tae Bo wrote:
> It's like snapping a towel.

You have never snapped a towel.

Ever.

[Mike Gerics]

Any hints?

---WUFF Camp.

[Mike Gerics]

Any hints?

---grip the disc tighter.
---two fingers against/under the rim.
---hold the disc flat.
---hold the disc at the angle which you want to release it, the entire time
it's in your grip.....if ya wanna throw it flat, hold it flat...if ya wanna
throw it inside out, hold it pointed down.
---try the pull back technique.....flick wrist forward, then whip your arm
back, for extra spin and def touch.

[Mike Gerics]

> I always tell people to literally put their elbow on their hip and
> leave it there.

--bzt. no.

[Mike Gerics]

> It's like snapping a towel.
>

---backhands are much like snapping a towel.....i guess you can apply the
same method for a flick.....but not many folks are running around the
swimming pool snapping one another with forehand flick towel snaps.

[Mike Gerics]

Any hints?

---practice throwing into your couch.

[LordL...@gmail.com]

2 suggestions
1)
Have them begin by throwing under their throwing leg (righty throw
under right leg). This will teach them to not throw it like a
baseball. It'll force them to put their wrist down, try it yourself,
it helps.
2)
Have them stand perpindicular to their target. This is contrary to the
way you would normally throw, but it will also force them to isolate
their wrist, since they can't move their arm through their body. Have
a right handed thrower point their left shoulder towards the target.
This will help with wrist isolation and just all around feel of the
throw.

Stress form over aim. If you throw a crappy outside-in bladey piece of
crap but hit your target every time, you will think that it'll work in
a game. Force them (and yourself) to throw a flat straight throw, and
explain that aim will just come with a lot of practice.

good luck

[Fetch]

I taught 4-6th grade Physical Education and now teach an ultimate class
at the University. Both ages have similar difficulties but I found the
best way for me to teach all ages is to have them grip with the middle
finger and index finger and thumb and allow the disc to hang or sag
straight down. Then I say, arm, elbow, wrist, follow through. At
first the sag compensates for the lack of spin. If the spin rate
increases then the grip can change and there can be less sag in the
initial stance. This allows for stepping out and arm movement from the
go.

Also I have found that teaching a hammer first always makes the flick
easier. I usually do that once the pistol method is ready to be used.
Teaching a hammer allows for more error and is most similar to throwing
and object that is more familiar to the novice disc thrower. It is
easier for a student to practice spin.

All kids, if they want to learn can be taught movement patterns with
good instruction. Props to all the those who teach anything,
especially motor skills.

[neurodancer]

Fetch wrote:
> I taught 4-6th grade Physical Education and now teach an ultimate class
> at the University. Both ages have similar difficulties but I found the
> best way for me to teach all ages is to have them grip with the middle
> finger and index finger and thumb and allow the disc to hang or sag
> straight down. Then I say, arm, elbow, wrist, follow through. At
> first the sag compensates for the lack of spin. If the spin rate
> increases then the grip can change and there can be less sag in the
> initial stance. This allows for stepping out and arm movement from the
> go.
>
> Also I have found that teaching a hammer first always makes the flick
> easier. I usually do that once the pistol method is ready to be used.
> Teaching a hammer allows for more error and is most similar to throwing
> and object that is more familiar to the novice disc thrower. It is
> easier for a student to practice spin.
>
> All kids, if they want to learn can be taught movement patterns with
> good instruction. Props to all the those who teach anything,
> especially motor skills.
>
>
>

Thanks gang, fantastic replies. I'll put them to work on Saturday and
report back.
ND

[ripple...@yahoo.com]

what does bzt mean

[Manzell Blakeley]

We were told to keep our elbows locked against our hips, and to keep
our wrists loose (the flick motion would flatten our disc out before
releasing it) and learned the middle/index "Y" grip. For the first
hour or two (the first day, we spend about 6 hours learning the
forehand on a Saturday afternoon) we stood no more than a yard or two
apart, focusing on pretty much nothing but flat and spinning.

Eventually, the disc would occasionally fly magically 30 yards or so
without anything more than a wrist flick. that's when we started
moving out to 15 yards or so and practicing some more. For the next
two or three months, we practice the forehand obsessively to the point
that our backhands were in serious trouble.

That is still the case today.

[Jim Strathmeyer]

Mike Gerics <des...@digitizing4embroidery.com> schrieb:

Amateurs... they probably cry like a girl when they get hit, too.

--
Jim Strathmeyer

[Tae Bo]

Perhaps not, but the analogy conveys the idea of the wrist snap pretty
effectively.

[Shampoo]

Maybe hearing about my experience re-learning the flick will help.

Having never received proper instructions, my old flick was a sad combo
of what I've seen other people do and what I've read I should do. I
agree with the few posters above that the "elbow locked in" method does
not produce a great flick. It may get someone to throw a flick faster,
but it does not produce a fundamentally good throw. I was very
frustrated at first. Every flick I threw was an unintentional
inside-out. I didn't have good control. I couldn't step out. And
there was no power or touch on it.

Fortunately, I had a throwing coach who spent the entire mixed season
with me on my flicks. I started out just learning the grip (thumb on
top, index and middle finger against the rim) and learning to hold the
disc tight and in the correct orientation. This is harder than it
sounds, as I lacked the wrist muscles to do this.

For the first few practices, we stood 10 yards or so apart and I tried
to throw the disc with the correct orientation. (In order to get rid of
my inside-out, I had to throw an extravagated outside-in. The
outside-in is more useful as a starter flick, because we are forced
flick most of the time and you want to throw that to your receiver
cutting to the flick side.) I had to try to release the disc in the
same orientation as it will travel in the air. In the case of a 45
degree outside-in, I had to make sure I release the disc at a 45 degree
angle. This was very frustrating to do. I couldn't get my hand turned
or my wrist to snap properly. After a while of me arguing with him, he
asked me to throw some blades at him. The blade was easier to throw as
I didn't have to unnatually twist my wrist as much.

To make a long story short, we had to work on every movement in the
flick motion, including stepping out. A few weeks later we finally
came up with four things I had to concentrate on for each flick. I
don't remember the exact words, but it descibed the series of movements
of my grip, elbow, producing spin, and releasing. We threw 4 out of 7
days of the week. Whenever I could. We throw at practice, in the back
yard, and in the living room. For those summer months I put hundreds
of hours into my flick. One of the things I remember him saying is:
always practice your throws as if you are playing. Always step out,
throw low, never fuck around when you are practicing.

By sectionals, I had a much better flick. I was very pround of it. So
imagine my anger when he told me, your flicks still sucks. As it
turned out, he made sure he taught me the correct fundamentals, but the
correct fundamentals is not enough make a good flick. I had a very
slow release, I still lacked power, and I had to learn to throw lower.
Fortunately, with the correct fundamentals, these were things I can
practice myself now.

That winter, I started to re-learn my backhand.

Moral of the story, there's no magical way to learn any throw. It
takes hundreds of hours, a good coach, a lot of frustration and anger.
I advocate teaching beginners the correct fundamentals, even if it
takes them a lot longer to get a workable throw. They'll thank you 10
years down the line when they don't have to re-learn anything.

Marge

[Mike Gerics]

> what does bzt mean
>

---i'm not sure what it means...but it sounds like a buzzer going off on a
game show when a contestant gets the answer wrong.
bzzzt.
don't teach anyone to keep their elbow attached to their hip.
bzzzzzzt. no.

[Elizabeth D Murray]

I tell beginners to hold the disc level with the ground, like they are
balancing a beer on it, to flick their wrist like they are trying to get rid
of a booger on their finger and lastly to fake a backhand first and then
step out to the right (or left if they are a lefty). Something about the
momentum really helps set up the throw.

I agree that the elbow to the hip is a bad idea in the long run.

:Elizabeth
San Francisco

On 7/25/05 1:08 PM, in article
1122322117....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "neurodancer"

[Handy]

The elbow to hip idea is a transitory one.

The way that the UPA coaches were suggested to teach it was by
isolating each part of the throw. The elbow to hip idea is bad as a
long term idea, but as an initial concept can cuild strength and muscle
memory in the wrist. In order to isolate each part (and I have taught
many a new college player as well as elementary school folk the flick)
I suggest the following (and the idea can be used for teaching a good
backhand as well):

Stand 5 yds apart. Throw using only your wrist (elbow on hip roughly).
Once this feels comfortable take another five yards and start using
forearm as well, still with elbow steady against side. Comfortable?
Level throws? Not awful wobbling? Step back 5 yards, introduce free
arm movement. Feels good, looks good? Introduce body movement
(torque) for more distance.

This is a long process but should be able to be done in a single
practice, thus not jeopardizing anyone's permanant throwing future
while developing a concept of each segment of the throw.

Hope that helps.

-Handy-

[stephen...@mercer.com]

I'm intrigued to see so many people saying that beginners should grip
the disc tightly.

I've been teaching a lot of league newbies how to throw a flick over
the past couple of months, and I'm finding that the harder they grip
it, the more it wobbles. As far as I can tell, the rim of the disc,
crammed down in the crook between their thumb and first finger, is
catching on their first knuckle on the way out. I've been telling them
to go split finger while they're learning the throw, which keeps the
disc stable, and lessens the need for a deathgrip, and the wobble
disappears almost immediately. Over time, they'll get a little more in
touch with how the throw works, and they'll be able to eliminate the
split finger, and snap it the throw smoothly.

Or maybe I'm giving them a lifelong awful habit. But as far as I can
tell, a tight grip doesn't help the newbies.

[joshm...@gmail.com]

Every hint mike lists here are exactly what i did to get my flick
better several years ago. i think, he wrote this stuff somewhere about
backhands years ago and i just applied it to my flick.

Even today, when i am practicing on throwing further, the first thing i
do is to see if i am still gripping the ever living crap out of the
disc. if not, i grip it tighter and bam! more spin.

Also, when i teach beginners, i tell them to have slow throw-offs with
a throwing buddy. a lot of people's "stability" comes from really,
really throwing way too fast. if you can learn how to get it to someone
with a lot of spin and very little speed, then you are a receiver's
bestest friend in the world.

-josh

p.s. at tiina booth's camp the other week, she was teaching someone how
to throw a flick, and she had like a five step process of making them
throw around her body, under her arm, and this and that, and like
magic, after 5 throws, the kid had dramatically less wobble, more snap,
and could direct where he wanted to throw it to. if only i had written
stuff down. sigh.....

[dusty]

The following things are the pieces of advice that have helped me while
I was in the process of learning proper flick form and getting rid of
the awful advice I was given when first learning. (Including but not
limited to: Poor grip [split fingers and not tight enough], Poor elbow
position [close to the hip], and Poor footwork [Stepping far too
aggressively forward])

1. Practice throwing with a 4 finger grip, then work your way down to
3 and then 2. If 3 or 4 works better, stay with it.
2. Step out, not up.
3. Snap your wrist harder.
4. Dent the rim with your grip.
5. Snap your wrist harder.
6. Relax.
7. Snap your wrist harder.

The flick is miles better, but I've got much more catching up to do.
I still backslide into poor form when I'm not focusing.

Best meta-advice:

Don't teach intermediate throwing forms.

Teach the ideal form from the start. There are debates as to what
exactly the ideal form is, but don't shortchange your students/players
by teaching them anything other than what you feel the ideal form is.
That is, no elbow on the hip, no split finger, none of that crap. If a
player learns any of that first, there very well may be inadequacies in
form later on that are masked by technique. Or, worse yet, a player
will dedicate years of practice to poor form and then twice as much
work will be necessary to correct it.

Music on Tap: DJ Krush, Krush (On the Dubble)

dusty.rhodes
at gmail.com

[pgw]

Dusty wrote:

> 1. Practice throwing with a 4 finger grip, then work your way down to
> 3 and then 2. If 3 or 4 works better, stay with it.

... but it won't, so don't. (Why won't it, you ask? Because you need
some fingers on the outside of the disc, pinching the rim. Four
fingers is therefore right out; the weakness of every person's pinky
finger dooms the three-finger flick as well.)

> 2. Step out, not up.

Try stepping nowhere.

> 3. Snap your wrist harder.
> 4. Dent the rim with your grip.

Also dent the lid with your grip. (Perhaps this is what you meant --
I'd find it pretty difficult to dent the rim.)

> Teach the ideal form from the start. There are debates as to what
> exactly the ideal form is, but don't shortchange your students/players
> by teaching them anything other than what you feel the ideal form is.
> That is, no elbow on the hip, no split finger, none of that crap. If a
> player learns any of that first, there very well may be inadequacies in
> form later on that are masked by technique. Or, worse yet, a player
> will dedicate years of practice to poor form and then twice as much
> work will be necessary to correct it.

This is a pretty valid viewpoint, but I have seen teaching intermediate
steps be effective. The elbow-on-hip thing has probably helped as many
people as it's hurt; some people need to isolate the wrist and forearm
activity, work on that, and then add the rest of the arm to the
equation.

Somebody else wrote:

> Also, when i teach beginners, i tell them to have slow throw-offs
> with a throwing buddy. a lot of people's "stability" comes from
> really, really throwing way too fast. if you can learn how to get
> it to someone with a lot of spin and very little speed, then you
> are a receiver's bestest friend in the world.

Word.

There are three things you want on a good throw: (1) forward motion;
(2) spin; and (3) a clean release. As you indicate, many people cannot
separate (1) and (2) because they generate all their spin by just
throwing harder. The slow throw-off method is a good one to try to
isolate the two skills. But then there's (3). Many throwers mask
deficiencies in their ability to achieve a clean release by throwing
with lots of spin, which immediately stabilizes the disc so you almost
never notice the crappy, wobbly release. What you want to be able to
do, though, is to release it cleanly independent of how fast it is
spinning. How to practice that? Here are two old articles some genius
wrote on the subject:

http://tinyurl.com/baaap

http://tinyurl.com/coox6

[dusty]

pgw wrote:
> Dusty wrote:
>
> > 1. Practice throwing with a 4 finger grip, then work your way down to
> > 3 and then 2. If 3 or 4 works better, stay with it.
>
> ... but it won't, so don't. (Why won't it, you ask? Because you need
> some fingers on the outside of the disc, pinching the rim. Four
> fingers is therefore right out; the weakness of every person's pinky
> finger dooms the three-finger flick as well.)

I thought the same as well, but I know more than a few high-level
handlers who grip the flick with 3 fingers. It works for them, but not
for me. The advice of using more fingers to work on your flick came
recommended to me because it seems to accentuate any errors in your
form. You can't compensate for discrepencies between the angle of
release and the angle that your arm is traveling in. All of your
mechanical flaws are revealed.

The goal of the "If 3 or 4 works better, stay with it" is just there
because I don't want to limit the options of throwers. There are some
players with gigantic hands who throw a one finger flick. I don't
recommend it, but it seems to work for some.

> > 2. Step out, not up.
>
> Try stepping nowhere.

I agree, but even those who prefer to not step find it necessary to
release the disc further out from the body than the arm alone can reach
from time to time. It is easier to eliminate the step after you learn
it than it is to add it after throwing without it, I imagine.
Obviously, I'm not sure about this one.

>
> > 3. Snap your wrist harder.
> > 4. Dent the rim with your grip.
>
> Also dent the lid with your grip. (Perhaps this is what you meant --
> I'd find it pretty difficult to dent the rim.)

Yes.

> The elbow-on-hip thing has probably helped as many
> people as it's hurt; some people need to isolate the wrist and forearm
> activity, work on that, and then add the rest of the arm to the
> equation.

Try a different method to isolate this motion: Extend your arm fully,
and just snap the wrist. Most beginners are surprised to learn that
they can still throw the disc 5yards or so. Then, most players will
move to a more comfortable form of a slightly bent elbow and not make
the mistake of bringing it in too far. It is intuitively clear that
you can generate more force by bringing the disc closer to the body,
and the method of teaching emphasizes the importance of releasing the
disc away from your body.

This method also makes it easier to develop a release point that is far
enough from the body to throw without stepping, when appropriate, as
mentioned above.

Music on Tap: The Clash, London Calling

dusty.rhodes
at gmail.com

[Chris Van Holmes]

>> > 2. Step out, not up.
>>
>> Try stepping nowhere.

dusty> I agree, but even those who prefer to not step find it
dusty> necessary to release the disc further out from the body than
dusty> the arm alone can reach from time to time. It is easier to
dusty> eliminate the step after you learn it than it is to add it
dusty> after throwing without it, I imagine. Obviously, I'm not
dusty> sure about this one.

I have to disagree with this one. Having grown up in an era when some
of the best distance throwers were flicks, one gets a better idea of
what makes a solid forehand throw. I think it more impoortant to
learn the proper mechanics of the feet and hips first. This means
shifting weight from right foot (back) to left foot (front). Once you
learn the transfer mechanics of legs to hips to back to shoulders, it
becomes much easier to learn the awkward. and mechanically
incorrect, ultimate pivot-steps pivot throw.

CVH