UCSD Women's team suspended for the season
Spipit
Right now, the UCSD Psychos are facing a year-long suspension for an
alcohol infraction involving our "initiation" (which was nothing more
than an annual naming ceremony followed by a party). An anonymous
email was sent to our sports club director, requesting that he look at
an album titled "Psycho Initiation" on one of our players' Facebook
profile. Because of the album name, and the alcohol in the pictures,
the recreation department deemed it necessary to suspend our A and B
teams for the entire season. They have agreed to let us PRACTICE in
the spring, but that's all the leniency we have been afforded. A
suspension of this length threatens the continuity of our program, a
program that has been strong for about a decade now.
Needless to say, we think this punishment is unfair and
unprecedented. We have thoroughly exhausted the appeals process
without any success and now we need your help.
We are asking for all the support we can get from you, the ultimate
community. If you have had any kind of interaction with our program,
come to one of our tournaments, or just like any of us...please take a
few minutes out of your day to write an email to our rec dept head
(Dave Koch). His email address is dk...@ucsd.edu.
We'd like to thank all of the teams, captains, and coaches that have
sent emails already. We greatly appreciate it.
Thank you all for your time and consideration. We really hope that
(with your help) we will be able to see you out at tournaments this
year!
Angela "Spipit" Wells
(formerly known as) UCSD Psycho TD
ps - change the settings on your facebook profile to private
pps - the men's team is hosting the women's division of Pres Day (see
the Pres Day 2008 post for details)
Spipit
Mark Ratkiller
Sadly, this sort of thing is just going to happen more and more,
unless people realize the implications of profiling themselves online
(just search 'fired facebook' on google). What really sucks is that
even if you opt out and don't join facebook and/or disable your
account, someone else is probably going to post pictures of you, tag
them, and ignore privacy settings, which sets you up for something
like this.
Manzell
> (with your help) we will be able to see you out at tournaments this
> year!
I hate to be a wet blanket, but:
I presume the pictures are legitimate - they depict members of the
club (some of whom are presumably underage) drinking at what is
presented as both an official club event and an 'initiation'. A quick
check of the UCSD student code reveals that yes, existing policy was
violated. As best I can tell, your argument is "this sucks".
That being said,
1 - This only threatens the continuity of your program if club
leadership decides to pack it in and simply quit. It's not as if
you've been expelled from the university. If you've exhausted the
appeal process, it's time to move forward and make sure the club is
ready to participate next season.
2 - Nothing prevents an independent groups of students from
registering for a tournament and showing up. You might not be able to
rent a university van or have access to club funds, but there are
still plenty of college teams making due in that situation. They find
a way to make it happen, and so can you.
Walter...@gmail.com
> 2 - Nothing prevents an independent groups of students from
> registering for a tournament and showing up. You might not be able to
> rent a university van or have access to club funds, but there are
> still plenty of college teams making due in that situation. They find
> a way to make it happen, and so can you.
Sadly, you don't realize all of the red tape that most of the
University of California schools go through. Most of the southern
California tournaments are run through UCLA, UCSB, UCSD, and UCI and
these are where most of the teams receive their pre-season experience.
The funding is never an issue with the UC schools as the Regents are
constantly cutting back funding in club sports to provide funding,
facilities (which club sports are "strongly discouraged and for lack
of a better word banned" from using), and scholarships that go to NCAA
sports. As a result, many of the UC ultimate programs are left to gain
their own funding through donations and fundraisers. All the UC club
sports directors are in contact with each other and have probably
already communicated the fact that the psycho's are not permitted to
attend any UC tournaments.
This not only affects the current Psycho's but also hinders the
development of the newer incoming group and could aversely affect the
future of the UCSD women's ultimate program.
That said, this is probably not the direct doing of the club sports
director either but rather the "higher ups" in the UC bureaucracy. I
am sure that the UCSD club sports director would like to do everything
he can in his power to help these girls and I am pretty sure a couple
hundred letters might give him a little bit of hard evidence to
further fight for these girls and help lift their suspension.
Just because you have "exhausted the appeal system" is not a good
reason to let your voice sink into the background and is a horrible
attitude to have. And the fact that you post this could have the
consequence of discouraging other people from helping out. It couldn't
hurt you, the Psycho's or anyone else to encourage people to drop 41
cents on postage and send a letter giving constructive reasons to let
the Psycho play in the college series to ensure that the highest
caliber teams get the best competition at regionals and nationals.
Danny Walters
Formerly #69 and Irvine Ultimate Club President
PS. UCI does not permit us to use the phrase UCI Ultimate because it
allows for possible legal issues. (Here again a problem with the UC
Regents not directly with club sports)
Mike Gerics
> profile. Because of the album name, and the alcohol in the pictures,
> the recreation department deemed it necessary to suspend our A and B
> teams for the entire season.
--yep. there ya go.
Mike Gerics
> Needless to say, we think this punishment is unfair and
> unprecedented.
---oops....that's where they getcha.
the punishment is fair for any group of goofballs that post alcohol photos
on their websites.
and....very precedented. very. from ncaa div one athletes...all the way to
a local college team here in my own city. very.....precedented.
Mike Gerics
year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that would improve your squad like crazy....and might be a loophole of some
sort...or not.
it'd be cool tho......
faddy
gotta say, that was just plain stupid!!!
having said that, I'm glad these sites weren't around when I played in
college......
we'd likely never been able to attend a single tournament!!
arc...@gmail.com
getting busted on facebook is rather pathetic. what would we as
ultimate players and captains/coaches be saying about ourselves if we
were to e-mail your athletic director saying his suspension is
unwarranted? think about that.
Duchamanos
team.
Bbuck
I guess I don't exactly get what the problem is here, the UPA hasn't
suspended you correct?
You still have access to practice fields through the school. So
essentially you can practice for free, and can pay to go to any
tournament, sounds like college ultimate.
Alex Peters
They won't be able to play in the series, because their registrar
won't approve them to the UPA. They could still play in other college
or club tournaments though if they don't use school funds or
transportation.
Spipit
"naming ceremony" was in no way a "hazing" event. Our suspension is
based on the fact that we were "hazing" the new class of girls. Yes,
there was a party after we gave nicknames to our new kids, and yes,
there was alcohol involved. We are at fault for that (wow, an ultimate
team that drinks? no way!), but that's not the entire reason our
season has been taken away. The emphasis has been placed on
hazing...which we feel we did not participate in.
We are not looking for anyone to email our directors saying his
suspension is unwarranted. We simply want to show him that a season
long suspension does not just affect the girls who currently play on
Psycho. (However, after doing some research online (badjocks (dot) com
for example), I've found that very few teams have been suspended for
the entire season for "hazing-type" activity...some teams had to do
community service, some had to pay fines, some had to take classes,
and, in certain instances, only girls pictured were suspended for a
limited time.)
Anyways, if you don't think I am the first in line to think that
posting pictures of this sort on facebook is stupid and that getting
busted for it is even more "pathetic", then you're wrong. However,
when you have 60 girls that play for you, it is a little tough to
regulate what goes up on who's profile. I have far better things to do
than stare at my mini-feed all day long.
As far as alternatives go, we have looked into everything. Technically
we have not been suspended from the UPA, but in order to compete in
the UPA college championship series we have to be a "college team" -
which means we have to be cleared by UCSD (who will NOT vouch for us).
UCSD can't stop girls from playing ultimate in San Diego, but they can
stop us from returning to college nationals...which is our goal every
year. Also, UCSD is run on the quarter system, so spring quarter (when
we can practice) begins in April (the only tournaments left would be
the championship series, from which we are currently barred). As I
have no hopes of making it to nationals as an open team (I'm pretty
good, but I'm not skying Kurt or Beau any time soon), I'm going to do
everything in my power to get there on a women's team. So a bunch of
emails and lettters can't possibly hurt right?
-Spipit
Baer
were posted, this should serve as a lesson to Ultimate players and
teams who want to be taken seriously as athletes and as a team
representing their university.
- Know what your school's policies are for functioning as a club team,
and make sure everyone on the team knows.
- Never provide alcohol to minors, especially during what may be
construed as an OFFICIAL meeting!
- Educate your teammates on the correct way to compose yourselves as
athletes representing your school, whether that includes meetings,
parties, tournaments, posting pics online, etc.
It is unfortunate that this happened to UCSD, especially to those who
were not involved or directly responsible, but this sort of thing can
not only make the school look bad if they fail to act, but it also
makes Ultimate players look bad.
If an incident like this happened with a football or basketball team
at any major university, it is a major scandal. If we want Ultimate to
be looked at as a legitimate sport, we need to act like a legitimate
team and keep our noses clean.
Keith
In spring 2005 Penn State's Men's and Women's teams were suspended
from 2 years of college series. The reason? We held our annual
spring tournament. It rained on Saturday and we canceled after 3
rounds. The fields then flooded and were damaged. They were
community fields not owned by the university. The punishment included
thousands of dollars in fines, community service and a one "year"
suspension that started the weekend before sectionals and then
continued for the entire next school year knocking out 2 college
series. And, unlike you, we weren't allowed to practice.
We didn't do anything "illegal" and nowhere was this listed in our
constitution. We tried just as hard as you are to appeal everything
and send letters everywhere. The bottom line is it doesn't work.
Last year was our first year back and we clearly were not as good
having essentially 3 rookie classes. But the program survived and
we're working harder to make it better.
Just be glad you got off as easy as you did.
Good luck.
jeffy...@yahoo.com
> So a bunch of emails and lettters can't possibly hurt right?
>
> -Spipit
If you've already tried the appeals process and been denied, what do
you think you will accomplish with a letter campaign? Are you
disputing that the team violated the school's policies? Do you have
evidence to show the school that your penalty is unfair?
It might be better to start rebuilding some goodwill with the school
by sending them an apology from the entire team and a pledge to watch
yourselves in the future. A campaign of messages claiming unfairness
may hurt your cause in getting out of the department's dog house.
arc...@gmail.com
just wanted to clarify that you shouldn't have to monitor your team.
they should have common sense. we don't need to be in college to
realize that putting up incriminating pictures is a bad idea
especially if you decide to name the album something like "Psycho
Initiation". And it looks like you have plenty of time to monitor the
feeds now.
MrP...@gmail.com
> the punishment is fair for any group of goofballs that post alcohol photos
> on their websites.
> and....very precedented. very. from ncaa div one athletes...all the way to
> a local college team here in my own city. very.....precedented.
True, but a few things worth noting here:
-The entire team need not be absent-minded enough to post photos, the
error of one condemned them all
-It's reasonable to assume that Psycho was doing nothing that isn't
done by pretty much every other team represented on this list.
There's an interesting situation here: the whole underage drinking
thing is technically forbidden but absolutely ubiquitous. The
previous equilibrium was something of a "don't ask, don't tell."
Folks would occasionally get busted, but for the most part the rules
were flaunted with impunity. What's changed is that it's now much
easier to get caught. What would happen if they suddenly installed
cameras everywhere and every instance of speeding were punished?
Folks would be upset about getting 10 tickets in a day, that's what.
We could be hard asses and say "So what? You were speeding, you pay
the ticket," but that doesn't address the situation exactly. The
problem is that the cost-benefit analysis changed overnight and things
will be unpleasant until a new equilibrium is reached...
Not much to be done for UCSD - the Man can't do anything but stick to
his guns (won't somebody PLEASE think of the CHILDREN!). The lesson
here is to educate players on the risks of posting photos online and
try to limit obvious displays of alcohol in pictures generally. If
the rule sucks and you can't change it, all you're left with is being
extra careful that you don't get caught.
~p
Franci...@gmail.com
the stupidity of posting said pictures online, but i thought the issue
here was the hazing?
did the higher ups who suspended you ladies say who was being hazed
and who was doing the hazing? i've always wondered in situations like
this where the entirety of the team is involved why the "victims"
don't stand up and say nothing happened? if its the ladies being
named in this ceremony, couldn't they just say "hi, i didn't feel
hazed, nor was i forced to do anything against my will, nor am I being
forced to make this statement, yes me and every other under-ager on
the team broke some rules/laws but suspend us for that, not the whole
team for this whole hazing deal"
am i missing something? is this not possible? fill me in
if every "victim" won't willingly voluneteer to do that, then perhaps
you were in fact hazing some of them and deserve your punishment, i
dunno, i obviously don't have all the facts, but that's just one
outside observer's opinion
-fran
Adam Dyer
UCSD could care less about whether or not you drink. What they do
care about is having it spread around on the internet that UCSD
students were drinking underage and "hazing".
As someone already said, "don't ask, don't tell" was their policy and
it still is.
BOFA
Nice Mike,
Maybe more realistically, organize a club team that happens to meet
the college eligibility requirements. Sure they may not be able to
play in the series, but the pre-series tournaments might be an option.
What are the thoughts of the TD's out there about letting a club team,
that meets all college eligibility requirements, and happens to be
from San Diego, *wink* *wink* into their tournaments? Specifically
Santa Barbara, Trouble in Vegas, Stanford, Centex, Davis (is club
anyway.. shouldn't be a problem).
Again, as long as they don't use school funds, or associate themselves
with the school in any way, they should be allowed to practice and
play as individuals on a club team. Right?
Peake
> On Dec 12, 3:40 am, "Mike Gerics" <mger...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > if they have suspended the womens team........play in the OPEN DIV this
> > year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > that would improve your squad like crazy....and might be a loophole of some
> > sort...or not.
>
> > it'd be cool tho......
>
> Nice Mike,
all of your teammates to change their privacy settings on facebook so
that only their friends can see their profiles and untag any photos of
themselves drinking (unless they are of age). The administration at a
lot of schools now use facebook as a way to keep tabs on their
students. While it won't undo what has already been done, it will help
prevent anything like this from happening in the future.
Baer
> i thought the issue here was the hazing?
>
> did the higher ups who suspended you ladies say who was being hazed
> and who was doing the hazing? i've always wondered in situations like
> this where the entirety of the team is involved why the "victims"
> don't stand up and say nothing happened? if its the ladies being
> named in this ceremony, couldn't they just say "hi, i didn't feel
> hazed, nor was i forced to do anything against my will, nor am I being
> forced to make this statement, yes me and every other under-ager on
> the team broke some rules/laws but suspend us for that, not the whole
> team for this whole hazing deal"
>
> am i missing something? is this not possible? fill me in
>
This is on UCSD's own website about hazing as it relates to student
organizations, and the standards they use to determine whether hazing
took place, and who they apply it to (the whole team vs. only involved
individuals):
Looks like they did what they were supposed to do...
**************
These definitions of hazing may or may not be subjective, and I don't
know what really happened at the meeting:
-What is hazing?
Hazing is any form of initiation into a campus organization that
causes, or is likely to cause, physical injury or personal degradation
or disgrace resulting in psychological harm to any student or other
person. Common examples of hazing include:
-Forced or required consumption of alcohol, water, food, or other
substances
-Participation in late-night activities that interfere with school
work
An activity is considered hazing even if it does not cause physical
harm. Degrading and humiliating activities are also considered hazing.
************
However, if UCSD applied this standard, it looks like they gotcha:
-How can an organization determine if its activities count as hazing?
To determine if activities are possibly harmful, organizations should
consider how acceptable they would be from the perspective of the
broader community. The "publicity test" asks the following questions:
-Would you let the campus newspaper or a local TV station cover your
initiation activities?
-Would you be comfortable describing your activities to your parents,
a professor, psychologist, or university chancellor?
If the answer to these questions is "No," your activities are most
likely hazing. When in doubt, check with your organization's advisor
or coach.
**************
It looks like it's not only UCSD policy, but it's also state law!
-Sanctions for hazing
Hazing is a violation of both the UCSD Conduct Code and California
law. Whether activities occur on campus or off campus, they are
subject to the UCSD Conduct Code and California law. Students found
guilty of hazing can incur monetary fines, academic suspension, and
even prison time. Student organizations, sports clubs, and athletic
teams linked to hazing can lose their status as campus organizations.
***************
This addresses some of the other comments made in this thread so far:
-Responding to charges of hazing
Organizations charged with hazing may argue that an activity wasn't
hazing because new members agreed to participate (perhaps due to peer
pressure and a desire to fit in). But even if new members agreed to
participate, the activity can still be considered hazing.
Another common defense is that rogue members committed the hazing
activity, unsanctioned by the organization. However, organizations
have lost their campus status for hazing activities performed by
members outside the leadership circle. Organization leaders are
ultimately responsible for communicating ground rules for new member
activities and for monitoring these activities.
*************
Rich Johnston
the 'anonymous email' that tipped off the administration contained an
accusation of hazing in it. If not, then pictures of underage
drinking alone, while problematic, shouldn't give the school grounds
to suspend the team for hazing. I would think that the school would
need an accusation of hazing in order to move forward, and if they
have one, then someone felt like they were hazed, and while it sucks,
the punishment is likely justified.
On Dec 12, 1:46 pm, Baer <collin.b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 12, 11:46 am, FrancisKel...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > i thought the issue here was the hazing?
>
> > did the higher ups who suspended you ladies say who was being hazed
> > and who was doing the hazing? i've always wondered in situations like
> > this where the entirety of the team is involved why the "victims"
> > don't stand up and say nothing happened? if its the ladies being
> > named in this ceremony, couldn't they just say "hi, i didn't feel
> > hazed, nor was i forced to do anything against my will, nor am I being
> > forced to make this statement, yes me and every other under-ager on
> > the team broke some rules/laws but suspend us for that, not the whole
> > team for this whole hazing deal"
>
> > am i missing something? is this not possible? fill me in
>
> This is on UCSD's own website about hazing as it relates to student
> organizations, and the standards they use to determine whether hazing
> took place, and who they apply it to (the whole team vs. only involved
> individuals):
>
> https://tritonlink.ucsd.edu/portal/site/tritonlink-preview/menuitem.b...
kdoe
Why wouldn't their registrar approve their roster? They should just
change their name and be a different women's team that all happen to
go to the University of San Diego. All the registrar gets is a roster
with instructions to verify that all of the students are currently
enrolled in school, not to verify they support this team. As far as I
understood, a team doesn't have to be in anyway associated with any
part of the school except that everyone attends said school at least
half-time. Am I under a false impression here?
Seems to me that this team could participate in all events everywhere
as a local San Diego women's team and participate in the college
series as long as everyone of said local San Diego team happened to be
enrolled in school. Sure it may be difficult to travel with limited
funds if they are normally supported by the school a lot but I see no
reason that there season would be done.
Franci...@gmail.com
that under UCSD's regulations, with the description of activities
posted here, the team has participated in hazing. I guess my real
problem lies with:
> -Responding to charges of hazing
>
> Organizations charged with hazing may argue that an activity wasn't
> hazing because new members agreed to participate (perhaps due to peer
> pressure and a desire to fit in). But even if new members agreed to
> participate, the activity can still be considered hazing.
>
I find it upsetting as a frisbee rookie, I can join (be initiated by)
a team, drink of my own free will at a party, and the university deems
it necessary to take action on my behalf when I do not see any crime
being committed. I just don't feel comfortable calling a situation
hazing when no one has step forward to say I got hazed. I guess in
the most extreme cases people are pressured not to come forward but
based on what I've read in this post and my knowledge of the average
college frisbee player, I highly doubt this is the case here. I just
think it would be nice if the university would designate who was being
hazed in this situation, seek them out, discuss the situation, and
then proceed appropriately, rather than just interpreting a few tagged
pictures on facebook as the worst intentions.
I'm obviously speaking to grander pictures here; short of the
university massively revamping its investigative and hazing policies,
it seems you ladies are screwed. Sorry.
-Fran
hoss24
the party to sign a statement that there was absolutely NO ALCHOHOL or
HAZING at this event and some ass with a renegade copy of photoshop
stole your facebook credentials and posted these slanderous altered
pictures and you WON'T REST until justice is done. Get puffy and lie.
Heck, if our President can do it, so can you!
Bob Koca
Specifically with regards to underage drinking can it be proved from
a picture that alchohol
is actually being drunk?
Bob Koca
Baer
I don't think that they would necessarily need a high standard of
proof in this case. I imagine that a university could make a decision
based on "Reasonable Suspicion" instead of proving "Beyond a
Reasonable Doubt," especially with evidence such as a photo... I don't
think that was the primary issue in this case, however.
Baer
> I find it upsetting as a frisbee rookie, I can join (be initiated by)
> a team, drink of my own free will at a party, and the university deems
> it necessary to take action on my behalf when I do not see any crime
> being committed. I just don't feel comfortable calling a situation
> hazing when no one has step forward to say I got hazed. I guess in
> the most extreme cases people are pressured not to come forward but
> based on what I've read in this post and my knowledge of the average
> college frisbee player, I highly doubt this is the case here. I just
> think it would be nice if the university would designate who was being
> hazed in this situation, seek them out, discuss the situation, and
> then proceed appropriately, rather than just interpreting a few tagged
> pictures on facebook as the worst intentions.
>
These are good thoughts, and it seems that there are some things we
don't know or that Spipit didn't clarify. We would all hope that UCSD
(or any other school in a similar situation) would conduct a
reasonable investigation rather than make such a decision based only
on a picture posted to Facebook, but we don't know for sure. As
Richard pointed out, there may have been further allegations stated in
the "anonymous email" that, combined with the photo and the posted
title of "Psycho Initiation", may have prompted UCSD's decision.
Based just on the info in this thread, we don't know what was entailed
in the investigation or in Psycho's appeals.
Spipit
As for the pictures, there are some of girls actually drinking beer
out of name-brand beer cans (so unless we claim that there was water
in there...which isn't very feasible...we're pretty screwed there).
As for tournaments, things look promising. (However, I am hesitant to
post anything of this nature on RSD as my sports club department has
searched RSD for all of my previous posts...they tried to get me in
trouble for advertising that alcohol was available at the Pub on
campus for our SoCal Warm-UP party this year. I'm not even sure how
they know about RSD.)
Again, just to reiterate, we are trying to indicate to the sports club
administration that a team tradition conducted yearly (naming) does
not fall under the standard connotations of the term "hazing" and that
the tradition of naming newcomers does not fall into the standard
definition of a "rookie initiation" either. Furthermore, both the
tradition of naming and the use of the term 'initiation' have been
used for about eight years now, with full awareness of its existence
by Sports Club staff. We are also trying to prove that the naming
ceremony itself did not include the use of alcohol, and that the
material seen on Facebook by the Sports Club staff documented a social
event that followed the naming ceremony (an event, ironically enough,
that was hosted at the house of the girl who posted the pictures).
We are meeting with a lawyer on campus today to see what they have to
say. (Not that I don't value the input of frisbee kids who check RSD
too often...)
Thanks to those of you that have offered sincere advice and help. And
to the others, I wouldn't have posted on RSD if i didn't expect to get
some shit for our situation (such is the nature of this forum).
-Spipit
Spipit
department. Unfortunately, they have made very little time for those
of us who run the team, much less for the rookies who they feel have
been "hazed". Also, "hazing" can be consentual or non-consentual (as
stated in the hazing policy here), so I highly doubt that these girls
coming forward to say that they weren't "hazed" would make a
difference (but we have tried).
Ok i really need to study for finals...
Walter...@gmail.com
and give their opinion as if they are the end all moral compass that
guides society?
Fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what happened. UCSD isn't
asking you to send in letters crying out that this is a travesty or a
moral outrage. They are simply asking for letters of support stating
that it would be nice to allow the top competitive colleges in the
nation play in the series. This should be an undisputed fact. Through
my experience the Psycho's have proved to be nothing less the one of
the most competitive and most fun women's teams in the nation.
Whether or not drinking and posting pictures can be considered hazing
is not an issue in this thread. Whether or not your team did something
less heinous in the past and got suspended for longer is not an issue
(although maybe you would have benefited from support from the
ultimate community and it is the leadership on your team that should
have tried).
UCSD's policy's and whether or not the punishment is justified is not
relevant in this thread.
The only thing that is relevant is support for an outstanding ultimate
team with an excellent history. If you have played against the
Psycho's you surely have noticed their spirit on and off the field.
And if you haven't had a favorable encounter with them then that is a
shame and you do not need to write in and show your support.
They are a great team and all they are asking for is support by
sending in letter stating what an amazing team they are and how
awesome it would be to let them compete.
jeffy...@yahoo.com
I hope you're joking!
> As for the pictures, there are some of girls actually drinking beer
> out of name-brand beer cans (so unless we claim that there was water
> in there...which isn't very feasible...we're pretty screwed there).
>
Here you are admitting to the alcohol allegation in a public forum...
> As for tournaments, things look promising. (However, I am hesitant to
> post anything of this nature on RSD as my sports club department has
> searched RSD for all of my previous posts...they tried to get me in
> trouble for advertising that alcohol was available at the Pub on
> campus for our SoCal Warm-UP party this year.
Here you are broadcasting your intent to circumvent your punishment
and then be deceptive about it, even knowing that your sports club
department may read this.
>I'm not even sure how they know about RSD.)
>
Probably the same way they know about Facebook. These guys aren't
idiots. You (and your team) should probably quit digging yourself into
a deeper hole and take some responsibility.
> the
> material seen on Facebook by the Sports Club staff documented a social
> event that followed the naming ceremony (an event, ironically enough,
> that was hosted at the house of the girl who posted the pictures).
I don't know if "ironic" is the right word here. Try "reckless" or
"irresponsible".
> We are meeting with a lawyer on campus today to see what they have to
> say.
Good luck. It will be a loss for the college series to not have UCSD
next year, but it's not the fault of the school's club department or
their policies. Your teammates made a mistake.
> Thanks to those of you that have offered sincere advice and help. And
> to the others, I wouldn't have posted on RSD if i didn't expect to get
> some shit for our situation (such is the nature of this forum).
>
I haven't read much "shit" on this thread. It looks like some people
advising you on ways to weasel out of your situation and others
advising you to own up to your mistakes and take your medicine. You
have a little devil sitting on one shoulder, and an angel on the
other.
La Maldad
qualification from the SW region this year.
jeffy...@yahoo.com
<Walters.Da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why is it that the people of RSD always have to give their two cents
> and give their opinion as if they are the end all moral compass that
> guides society?
>
Because that's the whole purpose of an internet forum, buddy! Your
whole post is yet another opinion, and I don't see the problem...
> Fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what happened.
> UCSD's policy's and whether or not the punishment is justified is not
> relevant in this thread.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks like this thread started with Spipit
saying they were disciplined unfairly, debating the merits of what
actually happened. She brought up the hazing issue as well.
>
> The only thing that is relevant is support for an outstanding ultimate
> team with an excellent history. If you have played against the
> Psycho's you surely have noticed their spirit on and off the field.
> And if you haven't had a favorable encounter with them then that is a
> shame and you do not need to write in and show your support.
>
> They are a great team and all they are asking for is support by
> sending in letter stating what an amazing team they are and how
> awesome it would be to let them compete.
Fine. I'm sure they are a great team, and it's too bad they won't be
able to compete this season. Like I said in my last post, it is a loss
for the college series. But people sometimes make mistakes and need to
learn. That would be awesome if they kept practicing and won Natties
in 2009 (what a story that would be!) but I'm sure the school's
administration doesn't care how competitive a team the Psychos are.
I think it may reflect poorly on a sport struggling for legitimacy
when we cry out with excuses to get out of a jam instead of demanding
accountability (just my opinion).
Spipit
I'm fully aware of what I am saying and implying, but thanks for
making sure. Yes, my teammate made a mistake, but that is over and
done with and now we're doing everything in our power to get into the
series. It's my last year of college ultimate (and I wasn't even at
the party), so forgive me for reaching out in every direction I can
(however illegitimate you think it is).
jeffy...@yahoo.com
Fair enough. Good luck to you and your team!
swill...@yahoo.com
The funny thing...what does the administration think you (and
teammates) will be doing with all the extra free time and money??
I hope things work out, but in the worst case scenario, you're a
senior in college, in San Diego, and any guy that plays ultimate (or
doesn't) will definitely buy you a drink.
Parinella
> Wow, things got easier for UCLA and Colorado in terms of national
> qualification from the SW region this year.
Who do you think tipped off the administration?
Were _all_ of the rookies present at this ceremony, or just some? If
the latter, then perhaps this could be used to show that it was not a
mandatory initiation.
Walter...@gmail.com
> > Why is it that the people of RSD always have to give their two cents
> > and give their opinion as if they are the end all moral compass that
> > guides society?
>
> Because that's the whole purpose of an internet forum, buddy! Your
> whole post is yet another opinion, and I don't see the problem...
I am pretty sure this forum is used for things other then giving
opinions. For instance, giving information on upcoming tournaments,
giving results of tournaments, posting pictures and videos and asking
for help. I would say that the purpose of this Internet forum would be
to give the ultimate community a place to come together and discuss
the goings on of the ultimate world. And yes opinions are a part of
that... but to say its the "whole purpose" is just ignorant.
> Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks like this thread started with Spipit
> saying they were disciplined unfairly, debating the merits of what
> actually happened. She brought up the hazing issue as well.
>
No quarrels with this statement, she did say that she thought it was
unfair. However, to consider this an invitation to debate the merits
of the actual sanctions is a complete misinterpretation of the point
of the post. If you want to start another thread and debate what RSD
is actually about I would be happy to discuss it there.
jeffy...@yahoo.com
>
> If you want to start another thread and debate what RSD
> is actually about I would be happy to discuss it there.
Seems like an odd thing to get upset about, Danny... And now you've
done hijacked Spipet's thread, after defending her team no less! I'll
concede that RSD has a wondrous variety of uses. I'm not interested in
debating the purpose of a message board.
Joe Buck
<Walters.Da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They are a great team and all they are asking for is support by
> sending in letter stating what an amazing team they are and how
> awesome it would be to let them compete.
do you think we're all supposed to be like cesar cedeno and come out
of the astrodome dugout and start chanting "let them play" just cause
kelly tied it up?
shit.
Mike Gerics
> and make sure everyone on the team knows.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---colleges have someone go around and lecture about the violations to avoid
and the pitfalls of online sites.
maybe club sports should get the same talking to, if they can also be
suspended
Wagenwheel
Joe Buck, you get line of the day for that classic, specific, "Bad
News Bears" reference. The best I can come up with is, "if at first
you don't succeed, never try again."
degnan...@gmail.com
> Why do you need affiliation with your school's athletic department to
> compete in the college series? Actually, I'm pretty sure that you
> don't.
>
> My understanding was that to compete in the college series you simply
> needed a letter from the registrar stating that the individuals
> playing are full time students.
>
> I'm asking this because my team was also suspended this year for a
> year. We lost practice time and a few other things but we are still
> planning to go to tournaments and compete in the college series come
> April. I'm not sure how our school could potentially stop us or how
> they would even know. Our only concern was that we might lose
> reinstatement next year if our athletics department ever found out
> (but we don't really care about that so we aren't too worried).
>
> Thoughts?
Well, the precedent (Penn State) would indicate that the UCSD women
will not play in the College Series, unless of course their club
sports dept overturned the decision on appeal or negotiated some other
kind of penalty.
Jared Smith
> Why do you need affiliation with your school's athletic department to
> compete in the college series? Actually, I'm pretty sure that you
> don't.
>
> My understanding was that to compete in the college series you simply
> needed a letter from the registrar stating that the individuals
> playing are full time students.
>
> I'm asking this because my team was also suspended this year for a
> year. We lost practice time and a few other things but we are still
> planning to go to tournaments and compete in the college series come
> April. I'm not sure how our school could potentially stop us or how
> they would even know. Our only concern was that we might lose
> reinstatement next year if our athletics department ever found out
> (but we don't really care about that so we aren't too worried).
>
> Thoughts?
Don't you think that the registrar and the athletic dept have some way
to keep in touch with one another? I mean I know at my school the
registrar and the athletic dept work very closely together and I'm
sure it's like that at nearly every school. It's not like the
registrar just signs off on anything you give to them. If they see a
sheet saying "hey allow these 25 kids compete in something and use the
school's name, don't worry about what it is" they'll probably try to
find out what it is. It seems pretty naive to think anything
otherwise...
Jared Smith
> Actually, any student or group of students can go to the registrar and
> ask for proof that they are full time students.
>
> I'm pretty sure that competing in the college series has nothing to do
> with the athletics department of your University. All that matters is
> that you can provide official proof that all of the competing players
> are full-time students at that institution. Athletics (at least at our
> school) can't stop you from getting this proof.
>
> From the upa website:
>
> "You will need to follow these basic steps:
> Fill out a roster with your team and player information using the
> online system.
> Turn a paper copy of your roster generated by the online system into
> your school Registrar's office along with the UPA Registrar
> Instructions.
> Send all pages of your Registrar-verified roster and Registrar-
> verified Registrar Instructions to the UPA so that it arrives by the
> registration deadline (March 23) or the late deadline (Tues before
> Sectionals). Overnight or two-day if necessary.
> Along with your roster, please send in any waivers and dues owed by
> your players for 2007."
>
> As you can see, it appears as if athletics does not have to be
> involved in this process.
>
> Again, if anyone has any thoughts on this it would be appreciated
> (since we are in the same position as USCD and plan to compete
> anyways).
>
> > Don't you think that the registrar and the athletic dept have some way
> > to keep in touch with one another? I mean I know at my school the
> > registrar and the athletic dept work very closely together and I'm
> > sure it's like that at nearly every school. It's not like the
> > registrar just signs off on anything you give to them. If they see a
> > sheet saying "hey allow these 25 kids compete in something and use the
> > school's name, don't worry about what it is" they'll probably try to
> > find out what it is. It seems pretty naive to think anything
> > otherwise...
To hand in a roster you can't just ask for 25 transcripts from your
registrar. Otherwise people could be handing in names to approve the
official USCD Snuff Film club as approved by the university. The
school is going to be cautious about how you use its name, not to
mention if you tried to use its name officially without its consent
you can bet the punishment is going to be worse than a 1 year
suspension...
Jared Smith
> > To hand in a roster you can't just ask for 25 transcripts from your
> > registrar.
>
> any student can walk into the registrars office and ask for proof that
> they are a student at that University. You want 25 transcripts? No
> problem (although they might charge you for it).
>
> It's your right as a student to be able to obtain proof that you are a
> student.
That is not my assertion, I am just saying a roster isn't simply 25
transcripts. For instance at NYU (where I go) they go through each
name to make sure each player meets the eligibility requirements for
the sport they're on the roster for...so it's a little more than just
proof of scholarship
kdoe
Well from reading this its probably different depending on which
school you go to. I know my registrar doesn't contact anyone and
barely knows whats going on. The registrar doesn't care or want to
know what Ultimate is or the UPA, thats not their job. All they need
to know is to mark a line through people who don't qualify as students
under the guidelines.
Maybe it is different at other schools but I really don't see how the
school can deny saying whether or not you are a student and that is
all you need to be able to compete in the series. If every player
went in and got a verification of enrollement and sent it to the UPA,
that would probably also work and you wouldn't even need to give the
registrar your roster.
degnan...@gmail.com
> > Otherwise people could be handing in names to approve the
> > official USCD Snuff Film club as approved by the university.
>
> that the UPA does not care if your ultimate team/club is officially
> approved by your University. All they care about is that all of the
> members of your team are full-time students. And your University
> cannot stop you from obtaining this information.
I believe the UPA does care if your team is approved by the college.
Again, the (unfortunate) example is Penn State -- club team suspended
in '05, could not play in the College Series.
mccants
registrar in feb, you will notice that you have to fill in that you
are a team, an ultimate frisbee team, in a section, in a region, with
the following players. the official sheet has ultimate written all
over it. if your school has banned your club team from existing/
competing/etc for the year, your registrar will not sign this sheet
and actually you will probably be in bigger trouble because you tried
to outsmart your club sports dept. also, the registrar gets a
detailed instruction sheet on how to fill out this form, and they have
to put their seal on it indicating they read and understood the
rostering process. it is going to be pretty hard to slip this one
past your school.
Jared Smith
> mccants, I appreciate your point. And I could see this possibly being
> a problem at a small school but at a big school I would tend to agree
> with kdoe's post above. At our school the registrar does not care or
> want to know about ultimate.
>
> I'd be interested in knowing if the UPA cares.
> If USCD was able to obtain the appropriate roster, would the UPA -
> knowing that UCSD has been suspended by their athletic department -
> let them compete in the series?
Yeah I guess a tiny little school like Penn St isn't a good
example...wait..
Handy
> mccants, I appreciate your point. And I could see this possibly being
> a problem at a small school but at a big school I would tend to agree
> with kdoe's post above. At our school the registrar does not care or
> want to know about ultimate.
>
> I'd be interested in knowing if the UPA cares.
> If USCD was able to obtain the appropriate roster, would the UPA -
> knowing that UCSD has been suspended by their athletic department -
> let them compete in the series?
If you're attempting to represent your school you may want to be
careful. I know that at my former school in the early 70's when the
team was trying to figure out a name, they were forced to take "Purple
Heys" rather than Purple Haze due to the "obvious underlying drug
reference that cannot be associated with this institution." We were
also told, even 30 years later when I was attending that if we made
paraphernalia such as discs, jerseys, shirts, etc... that said "Purple
Haze" and were caught then the ultimate team would be disbanded... for
10 years or forever, pretty much whatever they administration wanted.
Club sports that disobey have very little success appealing.
I would strongly suggest that you adhere to the rules of representing
your school if you want to ever get off of your suspension. You can
still go to tournaments and people will know who you are (call
yourself something else like Penn State did, what was it, State
College?) but no college series for you. Don't be mad, you broke the
rules and got caught, it sucks but it's the facts.
So in short, can you get the roster past the registrar? Probably.
Can you drive without a license without getting pulled over? Yeah,
probably. But if you mess it up don't get mad when they take away
your privileges for the foreseeable future. And certainly don't post
on here cryin bout it.
-Handy
former Purple 'Heys' coach
Jared Smith
> Handy, I was with you until the last line of your post as I am
> certainly not "crying" about anything.
>
> Teams get suspended all the time for justifiable and sometimes
> unjustifiable reasons. I was simply trying to point out that
> apparently (from the perspective of the UPA) if you have a verified
> roster you can play in the college series.
>
> Clearly, if you have been suspended by athletics, and you want to
> remain affiliated with your athletics department, you should accept
> your punishment and adhere to the rules of the suspension.
>
> > And certainly don't post
> > on here cryin bout it.
>
> > -Handy
> > former Purple 'Heys' coach
I think he was referring to Psycho not you Canadian, as an ironic side
note I play for NYU Purple Haze.
Charlie Katie
> That post was so good I went back and read it three more times!!!
Hahaha. My internet sucks. I fixed it. =)
canadian
kmind...@gmail.com
another university (say a local community college) and participate as
a member of that university for the series?
mapler...@gmail.com
Wait a minute! You play a sport whose governing body the UPA has
repeatedly taken the approach that "a rule is a rule, no exceptions"
and whose members seem to support that stance when it comes to
suspension of players and teams. Don't expect much sympathy from your
fellow ulti players and don't expect that the UPA won't also suspend
the team.
Doesn't the UPA have a drug and alcohol policy in place for the
college series? someone may have answered this, I just didn't read all
the posts.
Lots of incentive for opponents to rat each other out these days
unfortunately. Glad I played in the dark ages under "looser" rules
with both college and UPA administration that had the ability to allow
for discretion and make case by case decisions to ensure that
punishments fit crimes. Those days are gone forever.
by the way, just out of curiousity, was there any spanking involved?
remember ..... fast, drunk and stupid is no way to go thru life!
MJ
Mike Gerics
<katie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0d08d861-9abd-43d2...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Lametti, I don't know how you got confirmation for Canadian Unis. I
> definitely had to go through athletics last year to get cleared for
> the Canadian College series. The UPA series, however, is an entirely
> different matter. McGill didn't really care about the UPA since it's
> American, not Canadian. McGill's registrar was much more concerned
> about privacy rights because one person (me) was trying to confirm
> that 30 some odd people were students than whether or not we were in
> good standing with Athletics.
>
> I agree with Handy, if you got screwed already (and granted, in
> McGill's case, it had more to do with the sudden creation of
> ridiculous transportation requirements that weren't well publicized
> (read: renting charter buses so the entire team can ride together if
> traveling over 100km)), you really don't need to push your luck. Yes,
> athletics is screwing you, but you're only demonstrating that you're
> not responsible enough in the first place if you keep trying to
> circumvent them. What help does that do to your cause in the long
> run? What's the end goal you're trying to achieve?
>
> Charlie Katie
hoss24
go all Faux News on 'em.
First off, ask why they were reading emails from "Anonymous". Sounds a
LOT like "Osamamous". (Begin conspiracy theories.)
Then say how could they possibly pick on you and your team since you
were supporting our GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR by CONSUMING the one of the
few tangible products we actually produce in this country and for them
to even bring this up is unpatriotic. (Please don't tell me it was
imported!)
Speaking of UNPATRIOTIC, those members that did NOT participate were
at a SURRENDER MONKEY Democrat (sic) Party rally raising funds to
purchase IED materials for the Sunnis (or is it the Shiite who hate us
today?) in order to create some more carnage so the LIBERAL MEDIA can
report how badly the surge is going when CLEARLY it is working so well
that Iraq has slipped way down to third place in the most CORRUPT AND
DANGEROUS country on EARTH competition.
To pick on you young college co-eds by surfing FACEBOOK is simply a
waste of resources (not to mention probably a campus network policy
violation; what ELSE has he been viewing?) in the TIME OF THE LONG
WAR, unless of course Mr. Club Sports is ALIGNED WITH the
ISLAMOWHATEVERS, in which case he might think of a vacation in sunny
Guantanimo CUBA. CHUGGING A DSIC OF BEER is peanuts compared to
WATERBOARDING (I guess they could use beer instead of water).
And lasty, that "beer" was O'Douls anyway.
Get Your War On!
http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war70.html
Baller
> - Never provide alcohol to minors, especially during what may be
> construed as an OFFICIAL meeting!
> - Educate your teammates on the correct way to compose yourselves as
> athletes representing your school, whether that includes meetings,
> parties, tournaments, posting pics online, etc.
NERD ALERT!
Baller
> Hey all,
>
> Right now, the UCSD Psychos are facing a year-long suspension for an
> alcohol infraction involving our "initiation" (which was nothing more
> than an annual naming ceremony followed by a party). An anonymous
> email was sent to our sports club director, requesting that he look at
> an album titled "Psycho Initiation" on one of our players' Facebook
> profile. Because of the album name, and the alcohol in the pictures,
> the recreation department deemed it necessary to suspend our A and B
> teams for the entire season. They have agreed to let us PRACTICE in
> the spring, but that's all the leniency we have been afforded. A
> suspension of this length threatens the continuity of our program, a
> program that has been strong for about a decade now.
>
> Needless to say, we think this punishment is unfair and
> unprecedented. We have thoroughly exhausted the appeals process
> without any success and now we need your help.
>
> We are asking for all the support we can get from you, the ultimate
> community. If you have had any kind of interaction with our program,
> come to one of our tournaments, or just like any of us...please take a
> few minutes out of your day to write an email to our rec dept head
> (Dave Koch). His email address is dk...@ucsd.edu.
>
> We'd like to thank all of the teams, captains, and coaches that have
> sent emails already. We greatly appreciate it.
>
> Thank you all for your time and consideration. We really hope that
> (with your help) we will be able to see you out at tournaments this
> year!
>
> Angela "Spipit" Wells
> (formerly known as) UCSD Psycho TD
>
> ps - change the settings on your facebook profile to private
> pps - the men's team is hosting the women's division of Pres Day (see
> the Pres Day 2008 post for details)
you got a raw deal here but it is not THAT bad. They can not stop you
from practicing, just go out and find a field and practice... You can
still play in tournaments, just not the series... Trying to get
random people on the internets to help you out is not going to
accomplish anything, but just in case go ahead and make a facebook
group about it. You could always just start playing a different
sport, maybe field hockey or lacrosse. I heard someone on this group
mention a new sport called dischoops once or twice and i believe that
all the crazies out in cali are getting into it...
Manzell
> sending in letter stating what an amazing team they are and how
> awesome it would be to let them compete.
No. That's like saying, this child molester should be excused from his
actions because, well, he made Thriller.
However competitive UCSD is, is what isn't relevant.
MrP...@gmail.com
> mention a new sport called dischoops once or twice and i believe that
> all the crazies out in cali are getting into it...
Don't think DH has a series either. Also, California is a big and
well-populated place. We might all be crazies, but we're not all DH
players.
~p
MrP...@gmail.com
> > They are a great team and all they are asking for is support by
> > sending in letter stating what an amazing team they are and how
> > awesome it would be to let them compete.
>
> No. That's like saying, this child molester should be excused from his
> actions because, well, he made Thriller.
Not exactly. Child molestation is a crime with a victim. A narrower
definition of hazing that wasn't both voluntary and non-dangerous
might be as well, but hazing as the UC's define it is likely to be
victimless.
The one claim I could see is that the good reputation of the school
was damaged by the party. An argument that the good reputation of the
school is being damaged worse by the absence of Psycho in the series
would, in my mind, be a relevant counter-claim.
Still a lost cause in my view: hazing is defined in vague terms and
rarely enforced - that makes it a pretext more than a primary
concern. Somebody high up probably thought that the situation was
potentially embarrassing so they threw the team under the bus in order
to cover their butt (see Duke Lax). The kind of person who would do
that wouldn't be willing to undergo the embarrassment of reversing
course.
This assumes that we have the whole and unbiased story of course...
~p
Walter...@gmail.com
When did I ever say that they should be excused from their actions? I
was simply stating that they are asking for letters of support and
that whether or not the administration was just or not in their
punishment wasn't really the main point of the post.
But please enlighten me... what is relevant?
And sorry, as much as you want to be subtle in your references, the
Michael Jackson analogy won't even come close to the previous Bad News
Bears reference (Kudos to you Joe Buck).
pgw
> These definitions of hazing may or may not be subjective, and I don't
> know what really happened at the meeting:
>
> -What is hazing?
>
> Hazing is any form of initiation into a campus organization that
> causes, or is likely to cause, physical injury or personal degradation
> or disgrace resulting in psychological harm to any student or other
> person. Common examples of hazing include:
>
> -Forced or required consumption of alcohol, water, food, or other
> substances
> -Participation in late-night activities that interfere with school
> work
>
> An activity is considered hazing even if it does not cause physical
> harm. Degrading and humiliating activities are also considered hazing.
>
> ************
> However, if UCSD applied this standard, it looks like they gotcha:
> ...
> It looks like it's not only UCSD policy, but it's also state law!
There is actually a discrepancy here. On September 19, 2006, the
Governor signed into law a bill which moved the hazing law into the
Penal Code and made some other changes. Among them was a change to
the definition of hazing:
"Hazing" means any method of initiation or preinitiation into a
student organization or student body, whether or not the organization
or body is officially recognized by an educational institution, which
is likely to cause serious bodily injury to any former, current, or
prospective student of any school, community college, college,
university, or other educational institution in this state. The term
"hazing" does not include customary athletic events or school-
sanctioned events.
Why did the legislature change this? Well, it's kind of a long story
but I think the reason was that when they amended the statute, they
added a provision allowing the victims or their families to sue for
acts of hazing. Legislators got worried that it would spawn a whole
bunch of lawsuits over nebulous emotional damage claims, so they
quietly wrote that out of the statute.
I doubt that it matters much for the Psychos. UCSD may well be free
to have its own hazing policy and punish the students accordingly,
whether or not their definition is the same as the Penal Code's. And
from the student newspaper, it sounds like there were other code of
conduct charges as well.
Mark Ratkiller
> Not exactly. Child molestation is a crime with a victim. A narrower
> definition of hazing that wasn't both voluntary and non-dangerous
> might be as well, but hazing as the UC's define it is likely to be
> victimless.
Let's not forget those hazing incidents (which do happen) where
someone is dead in the morning.
Daag Alemayehu
> > They are a great team and all they are asking for is support by
> > sending in letter stating what an amazing team they are and how
> > awesome it would be to let them compete.
>
> No. That's like saying, this child molester should be excused from his
> actions because, well, he made Thriller.
No, man. He made Thriller!
Thriller.
pgw
> just wanted to clarify that you shouldn't have to monitor your team.
> they should have common sense. we don't need to be in college to
> realize that putting up incriminating pictures is a bad idea
> especially if you decide to name the album something like "Psycho
> Initiation". And it looks like you have plenty of time to monitor the
> feeds now.
Yeah ... I'm sure you've never done something that was a bad idea,
right?
Here's what's what: the team, or some subset thereof, screwed up.
The University, typically, way overreacted. Everyone here taking one
side or the other is oversimplifying it. That's right. Everyone's
wrong except me.
Anything else I can help clear up?
Handy
Regardless of whether or not the victim came forth, hazing is a
serious offense (for obvious reasons for the victim but for the
following reason for the school:) because if someone were to come
forth, the institution could be sued for an absolutely insane amount
of money. When the pictures were sent to whomever, in a "cover your
ass" move the school had a responsibility to preempt the small
potential for hazing having actually occurred and a consequent lawsuit
by suspending the club to minimize their liability. If they (the
school) hadn't known they still could have been sued as it is a club
officially linked to the school, if they HAD known and not done
anything, they would have been nailed to the wall.
Had you been in that administration and saw an official club sports
team providing alcohol to underage students, would you honestly have
said "I'm sure it's in good fun." Too many "What if's?"
This wasn't unfair, it was indefensible. And that's not from a
lawyer, it's from a businessman.
It sucks, I would be crushed were it my team, but the real problem is
that this ain't about rep, it's about $$$, which is why it won't be
reversed.
-Handy
i.e. The rugby team at my school was caught providing alcohol to
underage kids and one was taken to the hospital. Afraid of his
parents' reaction to his excessive drinking at 17, he claimed the
rugby upperclassmen made him drink (which to a certain extent was
probably true, who hasn't been made to drink by an upperclassmen or
captain at least once before?). The student's parents threatened to
sue so the three kids who owned the house where the party was were
expelled, and two of them who had been accepted to med school
elsewhere consequently had their acceptances revoked. The campus
started a petition and letters were sent, but in the face of a huge
lawsuit for life-threatening negligence, what could be done? The
rugby team is currently serving year 5 of it's 10 YEAR SUSPENSION.
And my school is just like any other, it's not like military school or
something, so UCSD, be happy that no one in the photos received a
worse punishment.
MrP...@gmail.com
Who's forgetting what now? I'm saying that the UC definition of
hazing is broad enough to include victimless situations. If the
details we've heard on this matter are true, the situation at hand is
an example of such. Who was harmed by the incident?
I'm not ignoring that "hazing" can be harmful, I'm actually saying the
opposite. The UC definition amounts to basically crying "wolf," by
removing the teeth from the term. You hear "they got suspended for
hazing," and you start thinking about keg stands, humiliation, rows of
shots, all of that. What actually happened is that someone posted
something to facebook and someone else complained. Now we have two
meanings of "hazing," the one where people get hurt, and the one where
administrators "say so."
Sexual predation sucks, but when someone caught nude sunbathing has to
register as such, all you know about a registered offender is that
they're maybe a threat to your kids... or maybe just European...
~p
MrP...@gmail.com
> serious offense
What victim? Victim of what? Who was harmed here? I'm not ruling it
out, but have you seen anything on this thread suggesting that someone
was harmed?
~p
Jared Smith
If there is no victim that doesn't mean something wrong is going on.
Sometimes the worst cases of hazing involve victims who aren't
complaining. That can be part of the psychological side of hazing,
that you do things that may or may not be harmful to you, and all to
be accepted as a part of some group. When you hear the hazing horror
stories 9/10 they aren't situations where people were kidnapped and
made to pledge some frat, they volunteer to be there because they want
to be accepted.
So just because there is no victim crying foul play doesn't mean that
nothing wrong happened, in some cases it can even imply the opposite.
MrP...@gmail.com
> Sometimes the worst cases of hazing involve victims who aren't
> complaining. That can be part of the psychological side of hazing,
> that you do things that may or may not be harmful to you, and all to
> be accepted as a part of some group. When you hear the hazing horror
> stories 9/10 they aren't situations where people were kidnapped and
> made to pledge some frat, they volunteer to be there because they want
> to be accepted.
So you're basically saying that in situations where it doesn't LOOK
like something bad happened and no one SAYS that something bad
happened to them, and there's no EVIDENCE that something bad happened,
something bad might have happened? Ok, it's possible. However,
wouldn't you want either an appearance, or a claim or evidence, or you
know, something, before throwing the team under the bus? If we assume
that there are silent victims of crimes that don't look harmful, how
might a hypothetically innocent team defend its innocence?
Criminal court requires a case beyond reasonable doubt, civil a
preponderance of evidence. What's your standard?
~p
Baer
>
> Criminal court requires a case beyond reasonable doubt, civil a
> preponderance of evidence. What's your standard?
>
In this case of a college athletic department making a disciplinary
decision, the burden of proof is not as high as criminal or civil
matters.
In workplace investigations, all that is required to make an
employment decision is "Reasonable Conclusion," which is far less a
burden than even preponderance. I would imagine that a similar burden
of proof would apply to a college department making a deicision for a
club or student.
Based on the original post in this thread, we can't say for sure if
hazing occurred, but based on anonymous emails, pictures, website
titles, it is likely that the department head had more than enough
ammo to draw a "reasonable conclusion."
Jared Smith
It's not a matter of standard of proof, it's a matter of what is worth
more to the university. If Ohio State's football team gets caught in
some scandal I bet the university looks long and hard into it before
making any sort of decision. However if it is some club that (no
offense to any ultimate teams) the school most likely couldn't care
less about, do you really think they're going to waste their time
making a thorough investigation? Here is the potential for an enormous
lawsuit if true, they could lose so much money if hazing were
occurring it would be insane, versus keeping a club sport around they
probably don't understand or have never even seen played for real,
that costs them small amounts of money and gives them no return. So in
their eyes its either maybe lose millions of dollars or maybe piss off
20-30 college students. It should seem fairly obvious how they would
react...
MrP...@gmail.com
> their eyes its either maybe lose millions of dollars or maybe piss off
> 20-30 college students. It should seem fairly obvious how they would
> react...
I totally agree with the cost-benefit from the administration's point
of view, but that doesn't make it any less sucky of a situation.
Then, it's made more sucky by the slew of judgmental posts we've seen
here. Even if the situation makes sense from the administration's
standpoint, that's a far cry from determining on scant information
that Psycho deserved what they got. Someone a little ways up this
thread went so far as to say that in some situations (like this one?),
the LACK of a complaint can IMPLY guilt. That's pretty far from
"reasonable conclusion," or really "reasonable anything."
I'm not so sure that it's clear what a team captain can do to avoid
situations like this. There's really no way to force all team members
to follow strict privacy guidelines when posting to facebook, and even
if there were, there's nothing stopping a non-team member from
posting. Asking a captain to prevent anyone on his/her team from ever
being photographed at a party where alcohol is present seems tough
too. Basically, the lower the burden of proof and the fewer the
rights of the accused, the higher the chance of false positives.
I agree that it's probably a bit late for UCSD (though I don't see how
politely notifying The Man that we dissent will cause any added harm),
but I think this is a valuable discussion for all of the other college
teams out there...
~p
pgw
> It's not a matter of standard of proof, it's a matter of what is worth
> more to the university.
You may be right about the University's motivations, but legally, they
don't just get to do whatever they want. This is a public school
which is essentially an arm of the state government. They are
obligated by law, and their own policies, to offer a fair hearing and
provide the students with due process before disciplining them. And
in fact, the student policies and judicial affairs section of their
code of conduct does address what the standard of proof is at a
hearing (if the student requests one) - it's the preponderance of the
evidence standard. http://ugr8.ucsd.edu/judicial/22_00.html.
That said, of course, when we're talking about standard of proof,
we're talking about what facts were proven. Interpretation of the
law, and application of the facts to the law, is the job of the
decision-maker. If they believe that what happened was something
"likely to cause ... personal degradation or disgrace resulting in ...
mental harm," then they will find a violation of the hazing policy.
(Note: that is no longer the definition under state law - but it is
still UCSD's internal policy. UCSD's website states that the law
contains the same definition, which is no longer true although it used
to be. Whether that has any effect, I'm not sure.) That would be
subject to review by the courts after completion of the University's
hearing procedures, but those findings are usually pretty difficult to
overturn.
Jared Smith
I was the one who mentioned the lack of a witness, but I'm not saying
lack of a complaining witness implies guilt, but rather that lack of a
complaining witness doesn't imply innocence. Some of the worst cases
of hazing I've read/heard about in which someone actually died in the
process are made all the more chilling by the fact that the other
pledges (this was for frats), who presumably were subjected to similar
if not quite as severe treatment, refuse to complain. It is for that
reason, that the mental stress caused by hazing can be so severe as to
actually create victims who don't feel they're being victimized, that
hazing can be taken just as seriously with or without a complaining
witness.
Wagenwheel
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ahhhh, Peer pressure, the most potent drug of all. Many a time I've
succumbed to it and it landed me in jail when i was 16, but that's
another story for another post, below is my account of my first
Ultimaxx tournament in G-vegas, NC. In hindsight, peer pressure
played a huge part in my decision process.
When I think about the # of discs I did as a freshman underneath a
table on the patio in g-vegas... What I didn't know was that night I
would stumble home, puke, get behind the wheel of 1988 honda civic,
turn the heat on, pass out, puke again, leave the door open (thank
god), and melt the dash and emergency brake cable to the housing,
nearly ruining my brand new civic. Now, it was not an initiation, it
was an ultimate party, and I wanted to gain the drinking respect of my
players and opponents. I put my health in jeopardy all in the name of
being accepted to the team (and in the name of a good time)
I did not attempt to drive (car was at the house I was crashing at),
but had a cop pulled up seen me in the driver seat with the car
running, door open, and a pile of puke just outside of the vehicle,
the logical conclusion would be I drove home. A night in the pokey
and my second alcohol offense by the age of 19.
When in fact I tried to sleep in the lobby of a girls dorm before
being booted to curb, hitchhiked home only to miraculously discover
the place where I was sleeping as we drove down the road. I felt like
Joseph and Mary stumbling upon an inn. Had to squeeze that in,
sorry. Happy Kwanzakkahmas!
Moral of the story, be careful, intent and consequences are rarely put
together before the damage is done. Remember the Duke LAX team?
Intent was to party and watch some strippers do their thang. Result,
a lot of money paid out for some crunked out beeyatch to get them
enraged and toss them ho's out. Words were exchanged, rumors flew and
the rest is history. We now know nothing happened as serious as
alledged, but nonetheless, consequences were still a bitch.
So, next time you have an Ultimate party do what they do at strip
clubs, (so I hear) Check that camera phone at the door, and party to
your hearts content, watch each others back and make sure your pal
doesn't wind up in a van down by the river, or with that chick that
carries that shit that you gots to go to the clinic for.
Peace...Ladies, just watch out for the dudes and get your girls back.
BOFA
ulticritic
>
> Joe Buck, you get line of the day for that classic, specific, "Bad
> News Bears" reference. The best I can come up with is, "if at first
> you don't succeed, never try again."
thats got to be a homer simpson quote.......which i would say trumps a
bad news bears quote (especially since it wasnt from the original
movie)
cos...@wfu.edu
"Trying is the first step towards failure."
-Homer J. Simpson
is what you're thinking of.