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Refs Enforce Sportsmanship says NCAA
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Brody Barkan
Jan 27, 2012, 2:58:52 PM1/27/12
to
So the NCAA says it's the refs responsibility to step up and enforce
better player sportsmanship. What are the players responsible for?
---------------------------------
Scathing Memo Urges Referees to Enforce Sportsmanship Rules
NCAA coordinator of officials John Adams posted a memo about
sportsmanship. In it he implored refs to enforce rules against
taunting, profanity, other gestures.
The NCAA's national coordinator of officials for mens basketball fired
off a scathing memo on Thursday urging referees across the country to
do a better job of enforcing sportsmanship rules.
John Adams posted the memorandum on the NCAA men's basketball
officiating website. "In games I have attended, I have noticed minor
unsporting indiscretions between opposing players go unnoticed by
officiating crews and invariably, these unnoticed acts later turn into
much bigger problems," Adams wrote. "Quite simply, we are doing a poor
job of enforcing Rule 10, Section 5, as written."
Adams was referring to the passage in the basketball rulebook which
governs the way referees should react to unsportsmanlike conduct.
Sportsmanship was one of three main areas of emphasis as determined by
the mens' basketball rules committee last summer, but the sport has
been sullied by several ugly incidents this season, most prominently a
brawl between Cincinnati and Xavier in December that led to multiple
player suspensions. That melee was ignited by trash talking between
players and coaches.
In his memo, Adams specifically urged referees to enforce rules
against taunting, profanity, and gestures like "waving off" an
official after a call. He also reminded them that coaches should be
immediately penalized if they leave the coach's box to complain about
a call. "These types of actions call for technical fouls. Call them!"
Adams wrote. "Your coordinators and commissioners will support you."
Reached by phone on Friday, Adams cited the decision to assess a
technical foul on Oklahoma State guard Markel Brown for taunting after
a dunk during the Cowboys' win over Missouri Tuesday night as an
example of the type of enforcement he wants to see. That was Brown's
second technical foul of the game, which warranted an automatic
ejection. "I really felt like we had to have a call to action," Adams
said. "Most coaches and players are good guys, but the aberrations are
the ones that get the most attention, and that's something we have to
deal with."
As the NCAA's national coordinator, Adams does not have the authority
to sanction referees during the season, but he does have a major say
in how referee are assigned to games during the NCAA tournament. He
said Friday that the manner in which officials enforce sportsmanship
conduct rules will have a bearing on those decisions.
"I don't mean it to be a threat, but this is an integral part of
officiating. It's just as important as getting block/charge calls
right," he said. "It's one of the issues we'll look at going forward
to the NCAA tournament."
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/01/27/NCAA.sportsmanship/index.html#ixzz1kgk9SfFy
better player sportsmanship. What are the players responsible for?
---------------------------------
Scathing Memo Urges Referees to Enforce Sportsmanship Rules
NCAA coordinator of officials John Adams posted a memo about
sportsmanship. In it he implored refs to enforce rules against
taunting, profanity, other gestures.
The NCAA's national coordinator of officials for mens basketball fired
off a scathing memo on Thursday urging referees across the country to
do a better job of enforcing sportsmanship rules.
John Adams posted the memorandum on the NCAA men's basketball
officiating website. "In games I have attended, I have noticed minor
unsporting indiscretions between opposing players go unnoticed by
officiating crews and invariably, these unnoticed acts later turn into
much bigger problems," Adams wrote. "Quite simply, we are doing a poor
job of enforcing Rule 10, Section 5, as written."
Adams was referring to the passage in the basketball rulebook which
governs the way referees should react to unsportsmanlike conduct.
Sportsmanship was one of three main areas of emphasis as determined by
the mens' basketball rules committee last summer, but the sport has
been sullied by several ugly incidents this season, most prominently a
brawl between Cincinnati and Xavier in December that led to multiple
player suspensions. That melee was ignited by trash talking between
players and coaches.
In his memo, Adams specifically urged referees to enforce rules
against taunting, profanity, and gestures like "waving off" an
official after a call. He also reminded them that coaches should be
immediately penalized if they leave the coach's box to complain about
a call. "These types of actions call for technical fouls. Call them!"
Adams wrote. "Your coordinators and commissioners will support you."
Reached by phone on Friday, Adams cited the decision to assess a
technical foul on Oklahoma State guard Markel Brown for taunting after
a dunk during the Cowboys' win over Missouri Tuesday night as an
example of the type of enforcement he wants to see. That was Brown's
second technical foul of the game, which warranted an automatic
ejection. "I really felt like we had to have a call to action," Adams
said. "Most coaches and players are good guys, but the aberrations are
the ones that get the most attention, and that's something we have to
deal with."
As the NCAA's national coordinator, Adams does not have the authority
to sanction referees during the season, but he does have a major say
in how referee are assigned to games during the NCAA tournament. He
said Friday that the manner in which officials enforce sportsmanship
conduct rules will have a bearing on those decisions.
"I don't mean it to be a threat, but this is an integral part of
officiating. It's just as important as getting block/charge calls
right," he said. "It's one of the issues we'll look at going forward
to the NCAA tournament."
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/01/27/NCAA.sportsmanship/index.html#ixzz1kgk9SfFy
ulticritic
Jan 28, 2012, 9:38:44 AM1/28/12
to
ian p
Jan 28, 2012, 11:35:03 AM1/28/12
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If you want to play spirit of the game ultimate you have to
call your own infractions and your teams infractions.
--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com
call your own infractions and your teams infractions.
--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com
Oldandslow
Jan 28, 2012, 1:55:03 PM1/28/12
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The NCAA says that the players playing with refs are being
unsportsmanlike, so the refs should penalize the players to
make them more sportsmanlike. I think I prefer our system
where the players make sure the players are more
sportsmanlike. Peer pressure from teammates is more
effective than threat of punishment from a guy in a zebra
shirt.
unsportsmanlike, so the refs should penalize the players to
make them more sportsmanlike. I think I prefer our system
where the players make sure the players are more
sportsmanlike. Peer pressure from teammates is more
effective than threat of punishment from a guy in a zebra
shirt.
JB
Jan 28, 2012, 2:40:03 PM1/28/12
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Enforcing a spirit clause? What zealots!
ulticritic
Jan 28, 2012, 4:10:34 PM1/28/12
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On Jan 28, 1:55 pm, Oldandslow <ebil...@aol.com> wrote:.
> The NCAA says that the players playing with refs are being
> unsportsmanlike,
and? how that any different than ultimate players? i mean, is it
sportsmanlike to bump on the mark, go offsides, double team, make
bougus bailout calls, make bogus bailout contests?????
i mean, isnt that the same reason ultimate invented observers?
-----------------------------------
so the refs should penalize the players to
> make them more sportsmanlike.
exactamundo. ya see, this way, the players have to respect their
calls and play on rather than argue with the opposing player/ref like
a 5 year old kid on the playground
-----------------------------------------------------
I think I prefer our system
> where the players make sure the players are more
> sportsmanlike.
why? seems kinda needy to me. whats the difference.?.....other than
the non playing ref dosent have a dog in the fight and wouldnt make a
call based on wanting either team to win.
---------------------------------------------------
Peer pressure from teammates is more
> effective than threat of punishment from a guy in a zebra
> shirt.
yea, it did wonders for the middlebury team when all the guys from
jojah cheered as their teammate droped a score for goal on game point
at nationals.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
> The NCAA says that the players playing with refs are being
> unsportsmanlike,
sportsmanlike to bump on the mark, go offsides, double team, make
bougus bailout calls, make bogus bailout contests?????
i mean, isnt that the same reason ultimate invented observers?
-----------------------------------
so the refs should penalize the players to
> make them more sportsmanlike.
calls and play on rather than argue with the opposing player/ref like
a 5 year old kid on the playground
-----------------------------------------------------
I think I prefer our system
> where the players make sure the players are more
> sportsmanlike.
the non playing ref dosent have a dog in the fight and wouldnt make a
call based on wanting either team to win.
---------------------------------------------------
Peer pressure from teammates is more
> effective than threat of punishment from a guy in a zebra
> shirt.
jojah cheered as their teammate droped a score for goal on game point
at nationals.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
ulticritic
Jan 28, 2012, 4:03:55 PM1/28/12
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On Jan 28, 11:35 am, ian p <pratt...@gmail.com> wrote:.
> If you want to play spirit of the game ultimate you have to
> call your own infractions and your teams infractions.
agreed......and when is the last time ya saw a player call travel on
his own teammate?
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
> If you want to play spirit of the game ultimate you have to
> call your own infractions and your teams infractions.
his own teammate?
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Nate
Jan 28, 2012, 8:32:29 PM1/28/12
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You're not allowed to call infractions on your own team.
XVI.A: "An infraction may only be called by a player on the
infracted team..."
You can advise the other team, e.g. by saying "I think I
might have traveled," but they get to decide whether to make
a call. IIRC, the rationale is that in some situations,
your team might end up benefitting from the stoppage of
play.
XVI.A: "An infraction may only be called by a player on the
infracted team..."
You can advise the other team, e.g. by saying "I think I
might have traveled," but they get to decide whether to make
a call. IIRC, the rationale is that in some situations,
your team might end up benefitting from the stoppage of
play.
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 29, 2012, 6:55:57 AM1/29/12
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I think I prefer our system
> where the players make sure the players are more
> sportsmanlike.
---how do they do that?
> where the players make sure the players are more
> sportsmanlike.
~~~~~~~~~~
Peer pressure from teammates is more
> effective than threat of punishment from a guy in a zebra
> shirt.
---are you sure about that?
> effective than threat of punishment from a guy in a zebra
> shirt.
i saw a bunch of Techs handed out yesterday while watching basketball
on tv......and the kids who turned to the ref with fists clinched
shouting 'WHAT?!'...seemed to get the message about sportsmanship
QUICK after hearing the whistle and seeing the T.
that whistle and T seemed pretty effective.
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 29, 2012, 7:03:48 AM1/29/12
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---in basketball.....allowing the ball to go out of bounds is
considered a 'violation'...play is whistled dead and possession is
awarded to the other team.
in ultimate, although i'm sure it's not CALLED a 'violation'...the
disc contacting an out of bounds object, or caught by an out of bounds
offensive player is out of bounds...and a turnover....
are players allowed to call their teammate out of bounds?
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 29, 2012, 6:57:12 AM1/29/12
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Peer pressure from teammates is more
> effective than threat of punishment from a guy in a zebra
> shirt.
~~~~~~~~~~~
> effective than threat of punishment from a guy in a zebra
> shirt.
--oh yeah.....the whistle and T from the ref....seemed effective AND
immediate.
there weren't any long winded discussions about what was happening....
immediate...and effective.
ulticritic
Jan 29, 2012, 8:19:20 AM1/29/12
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> You're not allowed to call infractions on your own team.
> XVI.A: "An infraction may only be called by a player on the
> infracted team..."
uhmmmm, thats a queer rule. so, in othher words the rules PREVENT
> XVI.A: "An infraction may only be called by a player on the
> infracted team..."
people from being spirited when the opposing team dosent see an
infraction???? how does this jive with sotg? shouldnt this rule be
cahnged JUST FOR the sake of sotg?
-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You can advise the other team, e.g. by saying "I think I
> might have traveled," but they get to decide whether to make
> a call.
thats stupid.
> You can advise the other team, e.g. by saying "I think I
> might have traveled," but they get to decide whether to make
> a call.
-----------------------------------------
IIRC, the rationale is that in some situations,
> your team might end up benefitting from the stoppage of
> play.
making all calls
Nate
Jan 29, 2012, 12:28:45 PM1/29/12
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Reggie Fanelli wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 04:03
the player with best perspective, which can be on either
team.
> are players allowed to call their teammate out of
> bounds?
Yes. In/out, up/down, and goal/no goal are all called by
> bounds?
the player with best perspective, which can be on either
team.
Oldandslow
Jan 29, 2012, 1:10:14 PM1/29/12
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Reggie Fanelli wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 03:55
Yep, that whistle and T stopped that player from getting
caught being unsportsmanlike. He's learned to "Play the
ref", in Ultimate we play to the rules.
Football hands out unsportsmanlike conduct penalties. Does
that make the players play with sportsmanship? Nope. Ask
any player who's been on the bottom of a fumble recovery
pile about what happens. If the ref can't see it, it ain't
unsportsmanlike. That's what you get with refs, an
appearance of sportsmanship if the ref is watching.
A great example is Michael Jordan's obvious (on TV) pushoff
for a game winning shot. When asked after the game if he
pushed off he said "Did the ref call a foul? "
The appearance of sportsmanship enforced by refs isn't the
same as sportsmanship enforced by players and teammates.
There's no hiding, your defender knows when you pushed off.
Your teammates don't want to play with a guy who's fouling
all the time or making bad calls. Toad's favorite anecdote
on this subject is the guy from Jojah and his dropped
catch/up call. I'm willing to bet that player took enough
heat from his teammates that he doesn't make that call
again. That kind of peer pressure works. Guaranteed
Jordan's teammates didn't tell him not to push off for game
winning shots in the future.
caught being unsportsmanlike. He's learned to "Play the
ref", in Ultimate we play to the rules.
Football hands out unsportsmanlike conduct penalties. Does
that make the players play with sportsmanship? Nope. Ask
any player who's been on the bottom of a fumble recovery
pile about what happens. If the ref can't see it, it ain't
unsportsmanlike. That's what you get with refs, an
appearance of sportsmanship if the ref is watching.
A great example is Michael Jordan's obvious (on TV) pushoff
for a game winning shot. When asked after the game if he
pushed off he said "Did the ref call a foul? "
The appearance of sportsmanship enforced by refs isn't the
same as sportsmanship enforced by players and teammates.
There's no hiding, your defender knows when you pushed off.
Your teammates don't want to play with a guy who's fouling
all the time or making bad calls. Toad's favorite anecdote
on this subject is the guy from Jojah and his dropped
catch/up call. I'm willing to bet that player took enough
heat from his teammates that he doesn't make that call
again. That kind of peer pressure works. Guaranteed
Jordan's teammates didn't tell him not to push off for game
winning shots in the future.
Lk
Jan 29, 2012, 1:45:04 PM1/29/12
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Reggie Fanelli wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 05:55
Doesn't seem like those kids were getting it...
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYtjpIwamos
> ---are you sure about that?
> i saw a bunch of Techs handed out yesterday while
> watching basketball
> on tv......and the kids who turned to the ref with fists
> clinched
> shouting 'WHAT?!'...seemed to get the message about
> sportsmanship
> QUICK after hearing the whistle and seeing the T.
> that whistle and T seemed pretty effective.
If it was effective why were "a bunch of Techs" called?
> i saw a bunch of Techs handed out yesterday while
> watching basketball
> on tv......and the kids who turned to the ref with fists
> clinched
> shouting 'WHAT?!'...seemed to get the message about
> sportsmanship
> QUICK after hearing the whistle and seeing the T.
> that whistle and T seemed pretty effective.
Doesn't seem like those kids were getting it...
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYtjpIwamos
ulticritic
Jan 29, 2012, 3:28:54 PM1/29/12
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On Jan 29, 1:10 pm, Oldandslow <ebil...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Yep, that whistle and T stopped that player from getting
> caught being unsportsmanlike. He's learned to "Play the
> ref", in Ultimate we play to the rules.
but some simply PLAY the rules themselves. and its the player comtrol
>
> Yep, that whistle and T stopped that player from getting
> caught being unsportsmanlike. He's learned to "Play the
> ref", in Ultimate we play to the rules.
allowance that enables them to do that.
-----------------------------------------------
>
> Football hands out unsportsmanlike conduct penalties. Does
> that make the players play with sportsmanship? Nope.
sure it does. they get yardage penalties that may be game changing in
> Football hands out unsportsmanlike conduct penalties. Does
> that make the players play with sportsmanship? Nope.
which they can and will catch serious shit from their coaches AND
teamates (talk about your peer preasure)........not to mention job
security.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ask
> any player who's been on the bottom of a fumble recovery
> pile about what happens.
pile" (SOTP). BUT ask him what happens when players cross the line in
that pile. look what happened to suh from the detriot lions
-------------------------------------------------
If the ref can't see it, it ain't
> unsportsmanlike.
without observer in ultimate people can be unsportsmanlike in much
more subtle ways that can have game changing results of their
own.......one word, JOJAH
---------------------------------------
That's what you get with refs, an
> appearance of sportsmanship if the ref is watching.
be hired again he better do a good job.........so whats your
motivation to do a good job as a player??? it seems like theres a
conflict between victory and honor, in which victory can and does take
precidense
------------------------------------------------
>
> A great example is Michael Jordan's obvious (on TV) pushoff
> for a game winning shot. When asked after the game if he
> pushed off he said "Did the ref call a foul? "
bfd........look at the infamous nationals JOJAH "catch"
> A great example is Michael Jordan's obvious (on TV) pushoff
> for a game winning shot. When asked after the game if he
> pushed off he said "Did the ref call a foul? "
---------------------------------------
>
> The appearance of sportsmanship enforced by refs isn't the
> same as sportsmanship enforced by players and teammates.
yea, the oen with refs actually works because there is a tangible risk/
> The appearance of sportsmanship enforced by refs isn't the
> same as sportsmanship enforced by players and teammates.
consequense dynamic.........with players and teammates its arbitrary
and caprcious..........and if it were so great there wouldnt be such a
thing as refs in sports (or observers in ultimate) in the first place
--------------------------------------------
> There's no hiding, your defender knows when you pushed off.
he might not know if youve traped or not had possession of a disc
though (jojah). AND he can still contest that pushoff OR make up that
youve pushed off when ya havent and simply call it
----------------------------------------------------
> Your teammates don't want to play with a guy who's fouling
> all the time or making bad calls.
but they do.......sometimes they are greatful when their teammate make
> all the time or making bad calls.
a bogus call that favors them......sometimes they (even coaches)
encourage it, as well as other tactics that are stratigically
dishonorable (bumping the marker, fast counts, double teaming).
-----------------------------------------
Toad's favorite anecdote
> on this subject is the guy from Jojah and his dropped
> catch/up call.
-------------------------------------
I'm willing to bet that player took enough
> heat from his teammates that he doesn't make that call
> again.
and as for the heat he took.......i believe i was the only one that
gave him heat here on rsd........and from what i herd, he and his
teammates simply rationalized it much in the same way jordan
rationalized his pushoff. there surely was never a public apolgy by
that jojah player or team.
either way, getting away with somthing the ref dosent see (which is
done at a risk) dosent even come close to comparing with how sinister
making a knowing bad call is
----------------------------------------------------
That kind of peer pressure works. Guaranteed
> Jordan's teammates didn't tell him not to push off for game
> winning shots in the future.
thats like saying that an ultimate player that got away with a pushoff
on a throw (because an observer didnt see it) would never do such a
thing again. and do ya really think his teammates would not tell HIM
to push off on any more throws for the rest of his carreer?
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
ulticritic
Jan 29, 2012, 3:30:21 PM1/29/12
to
On Jan 29, 1:45 pm, Lk <bigbananaspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Reggie Fanelli wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 05:55
>
> > ---are you sure about that?
> > i saw a bunch of Techs handed out yesterday while
> > watching basketball
> > on tv......and the kids who turned to the ref with fists
> > clinched
> > shouting 'WHAT?!'...seemed to get the message about
> > sportsmanship
> > QUICK after hearing the whistle and seeing the T.
> > that whistle and T seemed pretty effective.
>
> If it was effective why were "a bunch of Techs" called?
> Doesn't seem like those kids were getting it...
just like ultimate players dont "get it" when a bunch of their travel
> Reggie Fanelli wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 05:55
>
> > ---are you sure about that?
> > i saw a bunch of Techs handed out yesterday while
> > watching basketball
> > on tv......and the kids who turned to the ref with fists
> > clinched
> > shouting 'WHAT?!'...seemed to get the message about
> > sportsmanship
> > QUICK after hearing the whistle and seeing the T.
> > that whistle and T seemed pretty effective.
>
> If it was effective why were "a bunch of Techs" called?
> Doesn't seem like those kids were getting it...
calls get overruled, right?
Lk
Jan 29, 2012, 6:00:04 PM1/29/12
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ulticritic wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 14:30
> just like ultimate players dont "get it" when a bunch of
> their travel
> calls get overruled, right?
No?
> their travel
> calls get overruled, right?
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 29, 2012, 6:14:49 PM1/29/12
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> If it was effective why were "a bunch of Techs" called?
> Doesn't seem like those kids were getting it...
~~~~~~~~~~~
> Doesn't seem like those kids were getting it...
---well...i didn't see the same kid getting T'd up over and over.
i don't even think that the Ts were in the same game.
one T per game......WAY better than 30 different debates about if a
travel call was BS or payback...
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 29, 2012, 6:17:00 PM1/29/12
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> Football hands out unsportsmanlike conduct penalties. Does
> that make the players play with sportsmanship? Nope. Ask
> any player who's been on the bottom of a fumble recovery
> pile about what happens. If the ref can't see it, it ain't
> unsportsmanlike.
--i'm pretty sure that whatever happens at the bottom of a fumble
recover pile....IS football.
it's part of football....
...fighting for a loose ball.
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 29, 2012, 6:17:40 PM1/29/12
to
> A great example is Michael Jordan's obvious (on TV) pushoff
> for a game winning shot. When asked after the game if he
> pushed off he said "Did the ref call a foul? "
---what's this 'obvious' example of?
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 29, 2012, 6:19:35 PM1/29/12
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Toad's favorite anecdote
> on this subject is the guy from Jojah and his dropped
> catch/up call. I'm willing to bet that player took enough
> heat from his teammates that he doesn't make that call
> again. That kind of peer pressure works. Guaranteed
> Jordan's teammates didn't tell him not to push off for game
> winning shots in the future.
~~~~~~~~
> on this subject is the guy from Jojah and his dropped
> catch/up call. I'm willing to bet that player took enough
> heat from his teammates that he doesn't make that call
> again. That kind of peer pressure works. Guaranteed
> Jordan's teammates didn't tell him not to push off for game
> winning shots in the future.
---i bet you're 100% wrong to the opposite about Georgia.
i'd wager that they had a great night that evening....celebrating and
slapping fives about that call/play.
that Jordan 'push off' is debate-able.....not like the UGA drop.
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 29, 2012, 6:23:45 PM1/29/12
to
> Yep, that whistle and T stopped that player from getting
> caught being unsportsmanlike. He's learned to "Play the
> ref", in Ultimate we play to the rules.
---it didn't 'catch' him from being unsportsmanlike.
it NIPPED it in the bud IMMEDIATELY.
in the Villanova game....the kid turned to the ref with clinched fists
and said "NO" and he got T'd up.
i don't think i've been in a game of ultimate where there WASN'T a bad
travel called.....nor in an ultimate game where a bad travel call was
followed by a NO or a B*llshit or an ultimate debate.
i don't think he learned to 'play the ref'....he 'learned' to not be
unsportsmanlike.....which is a lesson that NO ultimate debater has
ever learned.
ulticritic
Jan 29, 2012, 7:39:58 PM1/29/12
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On Jan 29, 6:00 pm, Lk <bigbananaspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ulticritic wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 14:30.
>
> > just like ultimate players dont "get it" when a bunch of
> > their travel
> > calls get overruled, right?
>
> No?
how is it any different? wouldnt it be considered unsportsmanlike to
make phantom calls.......or are you saying that partial players just
suck at being good and objective officials?
> ulticritic wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 14:30.
>
> > just like ultimate players dont "get it" when a bunch of
> > their travel
> > calls get overruled, right?
>
> No?
make phantom calls.......or are you saying that partial players just
suck at being good and objective officials?
Lk
Jan 29, 2012, 8:05:03 PM1/29/12
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ulticritic wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 18:39
> .......or are you saying that partial players just
> suck at being good and objective officials?
Not my words.
> suck at being good and objective officials?
Oldandslow
Jan 29, 2012, 10:55:03 PM1/29/12
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Reggie Fanelli wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 15:17
What 'obvious' example? I don't recall talking about an
'obvious' example. I do recall talking about a great
example. Yep, it's right there in my quote, a great example
about unsportsmanlike conduct in a game with refs. One
where an athlete commits a foul that doesn't get called and
has no qualms about it.
'obvious' example. I do recall talking about a great
example. Yep, it's right there in my quote, a great example
about unsportsmanlike conduct in a game with refs. One
where an athlete commits a foul that doesn't get called and
has no qualms about it.
Oldandslow
Jan 29, 2012, 11:05:03 PM1/29/12
to
Reggie Fanelli wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 15:23
I don't know what you've seen, but I've never experienced
the horror stories you and Toad always talk about. The
occasional bad call? Sure. Any type of callfest that's
killed the game for me? Nope. None that I've played in and
none that I've watched or observed. (Outside of the video
of Fl/Carlton, but last years finals looked pretty clean
call wise. They looked horrible weather-wise) So you can
keep saying these things are common, but I will always
disagree so there's no point in discussing it.
the horror stories you and Toad always talk about. The
occasional bad call? Sure. Any type of callfest that's
killed the game for me? Nope. None that I've played in and
none that I've watched or observed. (Outside of the video
of Fl/Carlton, but last years finals looked pretty clean
call wise. They looked horrible weather-wise) So you can
keep saying these things are common, but I will always
disagree so there's no point in discussing it.
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 30, 2012, 6:44:55 AM1/30/12
to
---well...i see where you wrote the word 'obvious'....and that what i
asked about.
obviously, you wrote the word obvious, about something that was
obvious.
i recall MJ touching a player who had been faked out and was starting
to run one particular direction before MJ froze and launched a game
winner.
but in the 'unsporting' category....what was the 'obvious' example OF?
oh...you thought it was a foul that went uncalled....and somehow
unsportsmanlike?
i didn't even think that was a foul.
and you think it was unsportsmanlike?
huh.....
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 30, 2012, 6:46:35 AM1/30/12
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> I don't know what you've seen, but I've never experienced
> the horror stories you and Toad always talk about. The
> occasional bad call? Sure.
there were bad calls and ultimate debates about the calls.
ulticritic
Jan 30, 2012, 7:53:40 AM1/30/12
to
On Jan 29, 8:05 pm, Lk <bigbananaspe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ulticritic wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 18:39
>
> > .......or are you saying that partial players just
> > suck at being good and objective officials?
>
> Not my words.
then how do you account for successive bad travel calls by a
> ulticritic wrote on Sun, 29 January 2012 18:39
>
> > .......or are you saying that partial players just
> > suck at being good and objective officials?
>
> Not my words.
particular team? seems lie they should have "learned" after the first
one, right?
ulticritic
Jan 30, 2012, 8:02:09 AM1/30/12
to
that get told round here by the anti ref sz's concerning playing WITH
refs.
------------------------------------------
None that I've played in and
> none that I've watched or observed. (Outside of the video
> of Fl/Carlton, but last years finals looked pretty clean
> call wise. They looked horrible weather-wise) So you can
> keep saying these things are common, but I will always
> disagree so there's no point in discussing it.
in the sport to begin with.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
ulticritic
Jan 30, 2012, 7:58:38 AM1/30/12
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On Jan 29, 10:55 pm, Oldandslow <ebil...@aol.com> wrote:.
i, for one, dont think that pushoff was obvious. seemed more subtle
to me........and probably to the refs too......which is why they
probably didnt call it. AND REMEMBER, as long as they werent calling
it at the other end of the court its consistant and its all good.
thats the thing about impartial refs......they can keep the calls
consistant for both teams........whereas when ya have crossteam
officiation you will often have two teams with different styles of
calling stuff. some teams will let things slide where as others will
tend to be more nitpickey........whiich is the basis for inconsistant
calling and can often turn into a tit for tat callfest
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
to me........and probably to the refs too......which is why they
probably didnt call it. AND REMEMBER, as long as they werent calling
it at the other end of the court its consistant and its all good.
thats the thing about impartial refs......they can keep the calls
consistant for both teams........whereas when ya have crossteam
officiation you will often have two teams with different styles of
calling stuff. some teams will let things slide where as others will
tend to be more nitpickey........whiich is the basis for inconsistant
calling and can often turn into a tit for tat callfest
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 30, 2012, 9:10:20 AM1/30/12
to
> i, for one, dont think that pushoff was obvious. seemed more subtle
> to me........and probably to the refs too......which is why they
> probably didnt call it.
--THAT's what i'm talkin' about!
the 'obvious' example.....wasn't very 'obvious'....and that's why i
asked....about the 'obvious' example.
Oldandslow
Jan 30, 2012, 12:40:04 PM1/30/12
to
Reggie Fanelli wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 03:44
Geez, you sometimes (willfully) have the reading
comprehension of Toad. Great is the word to describe the
example. Great example. Obvious was the word describing
the foul. Great example of an obvious foul.
You don't think the foul was obvious? You're the
basketball/Ultimate official. Here's the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro the foul happens
at 0:31. Jordan drives right, defender goes with him,
Jordan stops and places his left hand on the defender and
imparts momentum to his defender allowing Jordan to more
quickly go left and causing his defender to stumble to the
right thus giving Jordan separation. You don't call that
foul if you see it from the angle we're seeing it from?
Hey, you're the expert.
Sportsmanship includes playing fairly. This is what you and
Toad don't get (or aren't willing to admit). Sportsmanship:
"sportsmanlike conduct, as fairness, courtesy, being a
cheerful loser, etc. " Fairness. In a game with refs it's
no longer the players responsibility to play fair, it's the
refs responsibility. Players have no incentive to play fair
if they don't think they're being seen. It's not
sportsmanlike to get away with fouling if you know you won't
be caught. It's accepted in reffed sports, but by
definition it's not sportsmanlike.
The NCAA article is using refs to address one aspect of
sportsmanship; courtesy. They want to make it look like the
players respect the officials and their opponents.
> On Jan 29, 10:55 pm, Oldandslow
comprehension of Toad. Great is the word to describe the
example. Great example. Obvious was the word describing
the foul. Great example of an obvious foul.
You don't think the foul was obvious? You're the
basketball/Ultimate official. Here's the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro the foul happens
at 0:31. Jordan drives right, defender goes with him,
Jordan stops and places his left hand on the defender and
imparts momentum to his defender allowing Jordan to more
quickly go left and causing his defender to stumble to the
right thus giving Jordan separation. You don't call that
foul if you see it from the angle we're seeing it from?
Hey, you're the expert.
Sportsmanship includes playing fairly. This is what you and
Toad don't get (or aren't willing to admit). Sportsmanship:
"sportsmanlike conduct, as fairness, courtesy, being a
cheerful loser, etc. " Fairness. In a game with refs it's
no longer the players responsibility to play fair, it's the
refs responsibility. Players have no incentive to play fair
if they don't think they're being seen. It's not
sportsmanlike to get away with fouling if you know you won't
be caught. It's accepted in reffed sports, but by
definition it's not sportsmanlike.
The NCAA article is using refs to address one aspect of
sportsmanship; courtesy. They want to make it look like the
players respect the officials and their opponents.
ulticritic
Jan 30, 2012, 7:10:27 PM1/30/12
to
an obvioius pushoff........one that would have resulted in an
"obvious" foul call anyways????
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You don't think the foul was obvious? You're the
> basketball/Ultimate official. Here's the clip:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro the foul happens
> at 0:31. Jordan drives right, defender goes with him,
> Jordan stops and places his left hand on the defender and
> imparts momentum to his defender allowing Jordan to more
> quickly go left and causing his defender to stumble to the
> right thus giving Jordan separation.
as they say......basketball IS a contact sport. and who cares if
> You don't think the foul was obvious? You're the
> basketball/Ultimate official. Here's the clip:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro the foul happens
> at 0:31. Jordan drives right, defender goes with him,
> Jordan stops and places his left hand on the defender and
> imparts momentum to his defender allowing Jordan to more
> quickly go left and causing his defender to stumble to the
> right thus giving Jordan separation.
there was a little push off.......as long as they werent calling
similar contact at the other end of the court its all good. most
basketball fans prefer when the refs "let em play" anyways. the big
difference in the self officiated game is that the player refs will
also let stuff like this go all game long yet call the nit picky stuff
in the end. i, myself, prefer when the calling stays consistant
throughout the game........and this is much more easily achieved when
partial opponents are kept out of the foul calling system......duh.
---------------------------------------------------------
You don't call that
> foul if you see it from the angle we're seeing it from?
> Hey, you're the expert.
whistle.
----------------------------------------------------
>
> Sportsmanship includes playing fairly. This is what you and
> Toad don't get (or aren't willing to admit).
sure i/we do.......sportsmanship means not; going offsides, bumping on
> Sportsmanship includes playing fairly. This is what you and
> Toad don't get (or aren't willing to admit).
the mark, stalling fast, double teaming, making bogus calls and
contests........all of which ultimate players can, will and have done
on many many occasions.
------------------------------------------------------
Sportsmanship:
> "sportsmanlike conduct, as fairness, courtesy, being a
> cheerful loser, etc. " Fairness.
game point)?
-------------------------------------------------
In a game with refs it's
> no longer the players responsibility to play fair,
so.......whereas with sotg there are no harsh penalties. so with refs
not only is there responsibility but there is also incentive. whereas
sotg is heavey on the responsibility but has little to no incentive.
and its almost as if its MORE tempting to cheat without refs because
you now that if you make a cheesey contest the other team will still
get the disc back and will have another try.
-------------------------------------------------------
it's the
> refs responsibility.
players have the responsibility to follow them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Players have no incentive to play fair
> if they don't think they're being seen.
they will be with the proper amount of eyeballs on the action. thing
is, even trying to get away with somthing comes at a
risk.......whereas with self officiation people can blantently cheat
with no risk whatsoever.
-------------------------------------------
It's not
> sportsmanlike to get away with fouling if you know you won't
> be caught.
opposing player wont likely call it.......or even if he does you can
simply contest it (OR NOT) especially when ya know there STILL isnt
going to be any harsh (or even subtle) penalty for doing so?
-----------------------------------------------------
It's accepted in reffed sports, but by
> definition it's not sportsmanlike.
i mean, how does a coach respond to his players that are playing
overly physical and end up putting the opposing team on the free throw
line when he'ed rather them not foul? granted they should be making
intentional fouling more of a penalty so it is discourages more but at
face value the incentive not to foul or violate the rules is equitably
built into the rules. sotg has no equity......its just an arbitrary
and caprecious way of dealing with not having the proper officiating
system to begin with
--------------------------------------------------
>
> The NCAA article is using refs to address one aspect of
> sportsmanship; courtesy. They want to make it look like the
> players respect the officials and their opponents.
you say that as if its a bad thing. and how is this any different
> The NCAA article is using refs to address one aspect of
> sportsmanship; courtesy. They want to make it look like the
> players respect the officials and their opponents.
than ultimate........in that they ARENT "using refs in order to
address the courtesy aspect of "spirit". and THEY want to make it
look like the players respect the officials.......that just happen to,
simultainiously, also be their opponents"
its the same fucking thing
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
ulticriticRocks
Jan 30, 2012, 8:05:04 PM1/30/12
to
Oldand slow wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 09:37
First off if that was called in an ultimate game there'd
definitely be some words exchanged between the two players.
Words such as "weak" and "no way" and "I can't respect you
as a player anymore." These would be followed by some angry
facial expressions and a long drawn out sigh. Now magnify
all that by a late game situation, time running out, and a
possible game winning catch on the line.
And don't forget the highlight reel you present has over 1
million hits. Do you think it'd have over 1 million hits if
there weren't referees in basketball and especially if a
discussion started after this shot between Jordan and the
defender where both players re-inacted the play and could
actually make a ruling? I think not.
If self officiating actually got more people to pay
attention to sports then it'd be the norm in professional
sports. If it's really worth doing then someone's already
tried doing it. Sports competition has been around a long
time.
> Reggie Fanelli wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 03:44
> > On Jan 29, 10:55 pm, Oldandslow
> > On Jan 29, 10:55 pm, Oldandslow
definitely be some words exchanged between the two players.
Words such as "weak" and "no way" and "I can't respect you
as a player anymore." These would be followed by some angry
facial expressions and a long drawn out sigh. Now magnify
all that by a late game situation, time running out, and a
possible game winning catch on the line.
And don't forget the highlight reel you present has over 1
million hits. Do you think it'd have over 1 million hits if
there weren't referees in basketball and especially if a
discussion started after this shot between Jordan and the
defender where both players re-inacted the play and could
actually make a ruling? I think not.
If self officiating actually got more people to pay
attention to sports then it'd be the norm in professional
sports. If it's really worth doing then someone's already
tried doing it. Sports competition has been around a long
time.
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 30, 2012, 9:30:25 PM1/30/12
to
> Sportsmanship includes playing fairly. This is what you and
> Toad don't get (or aren't willing to admit).
--the MOST sportsmanlike player on the planet....can violate rules and
commit fouls, right?
it's NOT necessarily unsportsmanlike to be involved with a play that
is 'unfair' to someone.
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 30, 2012, 9:31:52 PM1/30/12
to
> > > A great example is Michael Jordan's obvious (on TV)
> > > pushoff
> > > for a game winning shot. When asked after the game
> > > if he
> > > pushed off he said "Did the ref call a foul? "
---what i'd say is.....it ain't such a 'great' example....if the
pushoff, that YOU thought was a foul, wasn't even 'obvious'
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 30, 2012, 9:35:00 PM1/30/12
to
> You don't think the foul was obvious? You're the
> basketball/Ultimate official. Here's the clip:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro the foul happens
> at 0:31. Jordan drives right, defender goes with him,
> Jordan stops and places his left hand on the defender and
> imparts momentum to his defender allowing Jordan to more
> quickly go left and causing his defender to stumble to the
> right thus giving Jordan separation. You don't call that
> foul if you see it from the angle we're seeing it from?
> Hey, you're the expert.
---i think the defender was going hard one way....and MJ stopped and
touched his hip.
i don't see that as a pushoff.
Reggie Fanelli
Jan 30, 2012, 9:33:41 PM1/30/12
to
Great example. Obvious was the word describing
> the foul. Great example of an obvious foul.
~~~~~~~~
> the foul. Great example of an obvious foul.
---i don't think your great example is too good....i didn't see the
'pushoff' as an obvious foul.
ulticritic
Jan 30, 2012, 9:39:30 PM1/30/12
to
greatest thing since sliced bread. and then they fail to comprehend
that self officiation was around long before ultimate ever came to
be. in fact, soccer was originally self officiated and for many of
the same reasons that ultimate started their silly "new games" sotg
crap. thing is, it only took soccer about 30 years to figure it out,
whereas ultimate is still ate up with it.
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
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