Is CU Ultimate destroying College Ultimate?
daze
After reading this I could not believe what their plans are. By
taking the top 25 teams out of the mix, aren't they stopping
cinderella stories like the University of Arizona last year. What if,
in the pre-season, college football picked their top 25, and that was
it, you could never get in, regardless of your play? How do they
decide the teams? Is it from results last year? What if a team
looses a lot of their talent from the previous year when they did well
at nationals? I know a lot of young teams marvel at playing/watching
top tier teams at tournaments, isn't this taking away from some of
those teams. Don't the other 450+ teams that play Ultimate become
irrelevant? Lots of questions, anyone have answers? I played 5
years of college ultimate, I hope this does not go through.
Manzell
I'm withholding judgement. We haven't really heard from the UPA, or
Skip for that matter. Nor have we heard from the 'RSD legends' like
Gerics or, I hate to say it, Toad. I'd be really interested to hear
what some old school guys think and what non-Sockeye elite club guys
think. The Huddle is friends with Skip, so I don't really know if
we're getting their true opinion on the matter.
My guess, the UPA will proceed cautiously and continue to run the
series as they have in the past. I don't expect them to come out (on
RSD) against C1 or bar C1 teams from the series. Elite level teams
will also proceed cautiously, signing up for C1 but also getting their
UPA rosters in by the deadline. Mid-level teams (top 8 at regionals)
will desperately want in, some will be accepted and some will regret
it when their season is effectively over after putting up a 1-6
weekend in mid-April.
A question - does Florida-B (or Florida-X) get to play in the UPA
series? What happens when some (all) of their top players appear on
the B roster?
- MRB
rch...@mail.usf.edu
so does this mean those top 14 teams do not compete in the UPA series,
and do not go to the UPA championship???? i dont know about this
clr...@hotmail.com
I agree... the talent level from year to year for college ultimate
teams can change so dramatically that choosing the top 25 teams based
on the previous years results is unreasonable. The play in spot that
they have proposed is a joke as well, it is far to difficult to
accurately choose the top 2 teams out of a huge pool because teams
don't play similar schedules, not to mention the huge disadvantage
they will be at for not playing the "elite" teams week after week.
While I'm sure new rivalries will be formed, a lot of old rivalries
will be lost. More teams need to be included, because from year to
year new great teams are found, and "elite" teams have off years. if
cultimate puts 8-10 teams per division, with the bottom two at the end
of the season falling out, and two new teams replacing them... I would
consider this much more valuable to college ultimate.
with 8-10 teams per division, these are (for the most part) still very
competitive games, and ultimate would grow on a much larger scale.
-Casey
rch...@mail.usf.edu
scoop
series. If they actually try to pull this off beyond that, i predict
one of two outcomes.
1. Unmitigated failure.
2. Muddled, split failure that hurts the UPA, while costing them a
bunch of money.
From a ruthless capitalist perspective, it's not a bad play-- i
suspect that while they've done ok financially out of the tournaments
they've run, it hasn't been enough to fill up a 401k, keep a
moderately hot girlfriend in Chanel, or free them from the prospect of
getting a "real" job. So their options to make a real going concern
out of this (and to feed Cyle's gambling habit) are either to:
1. Branch out into other event-management businesses (lots of
competition, lowish margins, no particular reason to think they could
make it)
OR.
2. Create a captive market.
If the UPA handles this all very badly, they could win... so what has
Cultimate got to lose? People might say mean things about them? They
clearly don't care about that. If they crap out, it's off to actuarial
school or televangelism or whatever. So, they might as well roll the
dice.
But 1 will get you 4 they fail.
The Dick Formerly Known As Dennis
"second-tier" university (my team always makes and competes at
regionals, but currently has no aim at nationals), I enjoy getting the
opportunity to play top-level schools. This takes away much of the
fun and competition of national tournaments and playing other schools,
at least for me.
My one note of hope in all this is that Cultimate currently mentions
nothing of Conference 1 on its website. I would think that such
breaking news would be all over their website. Is this all
speculation? I hope so, even if Brodie Smith says otherwise.
scoop
Maybe this is all a big troll by Ben? Don't know the fellow really,
but that doesn't strike me as his style.
clr...@hotmail.com
Mimmo
> A question - does Florida-B (or Florida-X) get to play in the UPA
> series? What happens when some (all) of their top players appear on
> the B roster?
>
> - MRB
Does playing in this exclude them from playing in the series?
Why wouldn't they just play as regular Florida?
ilik...@gmail.com
Do you enjoy ripping people you've never even gotten to know? Does it
make you feel good about yourself to doubt something or someone when
you clearly don't have anywhere near all the information?
While the Conference 1 website does leave more questions than answers,
it does say that C1 will be run in conjunction with other tournaments,
so other teams will still be playing at these tournaments, and it
talks about a playoff between the top two non conference 1 teams, so
presumably there is another division of some sort that is being formed
for teams that arent conference 1.
The UPA series was a stagnant and outdated system that rewarded where
you live more than talent. It's about time someone at least tried to
take ultimate to the next level.
scoop
> "So their options to make a real going concern
> out of this (and to feed Cyle's gambling habit) are either to..."
>
> Do you enjoy ripping people you've never even gotten to know?
Do you think it wise to put your faith in a man who stole from his own
teammates? I mean, I've done plenty of things I'm ashamed of, but...
MrP...@gmail.com
> I agree... the talent level from year to year for college ultimate
> teams can change so dramatically that choosing the top 25 teams based
> on the previous years results is unreasonable.
Word. Promotion/Relegation makes sense on the club scene because the
rosters have more overlap over the years. Promotion/Relegation would
also be better based on the most recent season's results, but
cultimate obviously has excluded some nationals participants from last
year even quarterfinalists.
The concerns that Brodie voices are legit: Florida isn't well served
by spending time and money romping through sectionals, Centex is far
away, etc. I'm not sure however that this is the solution. If
conferences are desired, use existing NCAA conferences, use existing
UPA regions, whatever. Have a regular season, sure, but throw
everyone in there and take the top finishers for the playoffs, same as
every other sport (presumably this would break cultimate's tourney fee/
uniform sponsorship bank). The top 25 promotion will fall on its face
as soon as folks realize that each year a few of the "top" teams will
be rebuilding after graduating half their starters. Controversy
ensues when some of the "elite" teams are getting smoked while non-
promoted teams peak...
> While I'm sure new rivalries will be formed, a lot of old rivalries
> will be lost.
This is another good point. There are traditional ultimate
powerhouses that aren't a force on the basketball/football scene and
as such aren't involved in the rivalries of other sports. Black Tide
and CUT have rivalries for example that their schools' soccer teams
don't, for example.
Altogether, this seems to be a rather hastily constructed project.
The issues that they're seeking to address are real, but this doesn't
look like the best way to go about it. Certainly the Toad's of the
world will enjoy the angle of feuding with the UPA, but is this really
productive?
~p
yourean...@yahoo.com
>
> Do you think it wise to put your faith in a man who stole from his own
> teammates? I mean, I've done plenty of things I'm ashamed of, but...
His teammates got over it (and clearly support his current efforts),
so maybe you should shut the fuck up.
Shabadoo
> On Oct 15, 12:29 am, iliked...@gmail.com wrote:> "So their options to make a real going concern
> > out of this (and to feed Cyle's gambling habit) are either to..."
>
> > Do you enjoy ripping people you've never even gotten to know?
>
> O yes, O God yes.
>
> teammates? I mean, I've done plenty of things I'm ashamed of, but...
Seriously, do you somehow not enjoy 'ripping people' that you don't
know?
I agree that this is a positive step to legitimize the sport. I love
SOTG as much as the next guy, but a self-officiated sport will never
be seen as a real sport by outsiders. Elite level play has needed
refs ever since I started playing six years ago, probably much
longer. Of course, that isn't important to everyone; but for those
who it is important to, why not let them have an elite league that
should get better press coverage? Maybe they'll actually do away with
the ridiculous avoid contact at all costs rules.
I don't see why these teams aren't allowed to play non-C1 teams
though. Can't they just play them and have it not count on their
record? CBS teams can play CFS teams but can only count one victory
every four years towards bowl eligibility. What's to stop a C1 team
from playing other local teams and just not reporting the score? Can
someone play on a college team, but still go to club tournaments in
the spring? How will you stop them from it? If the UPA doesn't
cooperate with you, how will you determine college eligibility?
Seriously, you really put Cyle in charge of this thing? I've never
met the guy and don't need to in order to know not to trust him. The
man stole money from his own teammates. I don't care what he's done
before or after that. Someone actually decided to put me in a
position where I'm allowed to hire and fire people. If you think for
one second that I would hire someone who has a history of stealing
from his old company, you're insane. Now you want to put him in
charge of the operation? I'll put it in terms Cyle can understand(or
maybe not, as apparently he was a bad gambler), right now Obama is
paying -525 to win the presidency. If it came out that he had stolen
thousands of dollars from his family and lost it gambling just two or
three years ago; he would drop to about +800 immediately.
Joey #42
Pete
like to hear Cultimate address them.
1. The exclusion of so many teams, and the apparently strict nature of
scheduling.
Yes, the sectional/regional format is unwieldy and difficult to
handle. Yes, it dilutes the games that the "D-I" schools play. That
said, five four to six team conferences? So Wisconsin is "not allowed"
to play Wisconsin-Whitewater or Iowa, Stanford is "not allowed" to
play UCLA, Oregon is "not allowed" to play Washington? I could go on
and on. That would easily make this the most restrictive scheduling in
college sports, varsity or club. Furthermore, I feel that programs
like Arizona, North Texas, Williams, Cornell, Dartmouth, and many
others are being left out decidedly too easily.
2. The format
So these "elite" tournaments will crossover with existing tournaments,
or will be their own little tournaments, or what? How do we decide who
goes to Nationals? And furthermore, I take issue with 13 teams out of
25 qualifying, while 1 out of everyone else qualifies. That makes the
BCS look positively inclusionary. (10 spots for 69 teams, with an
option for others to the rest.) I understand that this "experiment"
probably needs a small test group, but really that small?
3. The dangers of failure
Anybody remember what happens to hockey when they canceled the
2004-2005 season. No one cared anymore. Could the same thing happen to
college ultimate, particularly at the mid-levels, the teams that would
then be left to play for a diminished UPA championship? What to those
teams really have to play for anymore other than the NIT of frisbee?
Or worse, if a handful of teams do Conference1, they try anyway, we
have a split champion, the same thing that left college football fans
in an uproar. It could set back ultimate if handled poorly.
4. Eligibility concerns
Is Cultimate prepared to deal with college admissions offices, and all
the rest of things that the UPA has to handle, to make sure that teams
aren't using ineligible players. They could be, and I don't know, but
if not, it could be a scandal-ridded test year.
5. Women's ultimate
Do they have a plan to have a Women's Conference 1? Otherwise it's
actually taking a step away from varsity status, since Title IX would
be a factor. It also could potentially leave a diminished stage for
the women, if the UPA Men's Championship carries on sans the
Conference1 teams.
I would like to hear these addressed by the Cultimate folk.
luke
the huddle in their detailed breakdown:
http://www.the-huddle.org/features/conference-1/a-detailed-breakdown/
jacob
"This is similar to the competitive model that we believe the UPA
Strategic Planning indicates would be in the UPA's future, though
probably on an 8-15 year timeline."
I do not think this should take until 2023 to implement. If this is
really the UPA's schedule, it's hard to defend its right to run
college ultimate.
"The UPA has had no competition in this arena, which has been, in many
ways, a good thing (the UPA can focus on other aims like Youth
Development)."
As a former youth player, I respect the UPA's efforts in youth
ultimate. However, it sounds as though you are implying that due to
lack of competition, the UPA has been free to keep college ultimate
treading water while it (the UPA) focused on youth. Is this really
what you meant? And if this is what you meant, wouldn't the UPA be
even more free to promote youth ultimate if a separate entity like
Cultimate took over the elite men's college division?
"Conflict with the UPA is major potential liability"
A conflict for whom exactly?
"it is hard to say right now what any negotiation might look like."
This is probably because the UPA has never had to negotiate the terms
of how exactly competition is organized. It might not be a bad thing
to see how the UPA does negotiate this. I think this type of
negotiation is inevitable.
"A direct competition between the UPA and Cultimate for control of the
dominant championship series could split the division."
How likely do you think this is? The captains of the top five college
men's teams are probably communicating right now about what to do.
Once they get their teams on board, all the other teams that are in
the top 25 will quickly follow. Nobody will want to be in the second
division. This would be true even without the extra perks Cultimate
is offering.
"Because the UPA has a wide-ranging and diverse mandate, and it does
not specialize in competitive administration."
The more competitive players suffer more for the game, and will
probably serve as better promotional vehicles. If they so choose,
they should have their division run by an entity that specializes in
their needs. Treating the best players with the same level of respect
as the worst players may make the UPA feel good, but this will be the
main reason why the UPA will likely eventually be an entity which
organizes only the less competitive divisions.
"we feel that a market contest between the UPA and Cultimate may see
Cultimate succeed."
Are you acknowledging that Cultimate is prepared to do more for elite
men's college ultimate than the UPA is (or are you suggesting that
elite men's college players will simply be duped by good marketing)?
If so, how can you ask these players not to choose Cultimate? Would
you ask non-competitive players to sacrifice the quality of their
ultimate experience for the sake of making things better for elite
players?
"Because this has the potential for disrupting many other extremely
worthwhile UPA investments and programs, we believe that direct and
long-term competition between the UPA and Cultimate is bad for the
sport of Ultimate."
Outside of lost revenue (25 teams x about 22 players x $30 = about
$16,500 a year lost UPA dues revenue), what type of disruption are you
talking about?
"We feel there is a potentially huge opportunity for cooperation.
Given an equitable profit sharing move between the UPA and Cultimate,
the College Division could be served well while maintaining the
valuable UPA service array."
What incentive does Cultimate have to cooperate with the UPA? Why do
you think that Cultimate can't serve part of the college division
while the UPA keeps "maintaining [its] valuable ... service array?"
"Cooperation in regards to dues payment and eligibility oversight
could, potentially, guarantee the UPA both the revenue traditionally
used while cutting back on UPA waste."
So Cultimate would share its profits with the UPA while also doing
work which the UPA currently sees as "waste," or are you suggesting
that the UPA would share money with Cultimate? One of these entities
will be making more money than the other off of college ultimate, so
unless the upa makes more off of college or takes money from other
divisions to share with Cultimate, you are talking about Cultimate
subsidizing the UPA. Why would they want to do this?
As for Cultimate basically paying the UPA to determine players'
eligibility, does the UPA really spend that much on determining
eligibility?
"We feel strongly that any College Ultimate model must allow for up-
and-coming teams to enter within the timeframe of a player's
eligibility. Any system that keeps a college player out of Conference
1, for any reason other than competition, for five years is
unacceptable to us."
Well said!
"Additionally, teams that are not invited to Conference 1 will, at the
moment, have only the UPA series to look forward to: potentially
without some/many of the top teams. This could be a significant
downgrade in the season for these teams. Finding good tournaments will
likely become more difficult for those teams on the outside looking
in, if it happens."
Good point. What if the bottom 5-10 teams at every Cultimate
championship got eliminated for one year and the top 5-10 teams from
the UPA championship qualified for the next year's Cultimate
division? Given the history of UPA college nationals, this would
represent a similar rate of turnover of teams playing at nationals,
although it would be bittersweet for the seniors on lower division
teams which qualified for the next year's Cultimate. Also, each of
the top 5-10 ranked Cultimate teams could have the option of
nominating 1 lower division team in their region to qualify for
nationals based on play at local non-Cultimate tournaments.
"We are very concerned that this is a male-only endevour. The Huddle
has been assured by the directors of Cultimate that future years will
bring significant developments in the Women's division. We feel, and
we are now confident that Cultimate agrees, that a Men's-only solution
is not acceptable in the long run, but that it may be a necessary evil
in the short run as Cultimate establishes a model."
Have you solicited any feedback from top college female teams? If
they are not into Cultimate, this is not an issue. Even if they are
into Cultimate, it seems you are on board with starting with only a
men's division.
"Finally, Conference 1 will likely experiment with rules and
officiation techniques. While we encourage experimentation, we worry
that introduction of these experiments in the Series may be too
aggressive of a change."
Why don't we just leave that one up to elite college men's players?
These guys are old enough to vote and serve in the army. I think
they're old enough to decide if they want to play in an ultimate
league with a few new rules.
"Cultimate plans to create a Board of Directors, chosen by them but
hopefully representing the community, to help guide these changes in
an intelligent manner. The way that this potential board acts in
relation to this question will be important."
Well, when all the decisions about how to organize the most
competitive league don't have to be approved by people who see top
level ultimate as a potential threat to grass roots ultimate, I think
you will be amazed at how quickly and how well things get done. And
when grass roots ultimate (which I love) is alive and well in 10 years
after Cultimate begins, some people will have some explaining to do.
tatc...@hotmail.com
of your friends. In this case, I am very pleased with Joey. What do
you think they are doing in UPA headquarters right now? I'm guessing
they have broken open a the glass case that covers a big red button
that says "PANIC" in large white letters. When pressed, a bunch of red
flashing lights go off, and a large horn blows.
Duchamanos
want them in your top 25?
Hope they don't check college records too carefully, Karl Doege could
get that ellusive 238th year of eligibility.
tatc...@hotmail.com
10 of them were the frizzz fucking bears
tatc...@hotmail.com
I love you watson
drpangl...@gmail.com
tournaments across the nation that have a mantle of legitimacy. These
tournaments will be divided into C1 and normal brackets, and being
large tournaments, can provide more amenities than the casual, student
run tournaments. The top teams attend because they have the
opportunity to play other top teams (not to mention the subsidized
bids / uniforms), and the normal teams attend because the tournament
is more official and better run than any of the area tournaments.
The UPA sectionals / regionals / nationals system isn't conducive to
the development of commercialized ultimate because running a
tournament with 16 or 32 teams well isn't worth the bid money, so
Cultimate has nowhere to grow while the current system is in place.
Their system seems like it could be an improvement for competitive
ultimate, but I think it would poach teams from the area tournaments
that college programs run as fundraisers, thus compromising the
financial security of many of the teams it would like paying the
entrance fees for its tournaments.
As a college player, I really hope that the UPA / Cultimate conflict
resolves and we are not left with multiple, delegitimized national
series in the end.
bww
For full disclosure I play for Wisconsin-B (emphasis, not the
hodags) I have not discussed this with the hodags in any way. DO NOT
take my opinions as representing the hodags, or even Wisconsin-B in
any way.
Is going to sectionals really that much of a problem? Madison is an
hour away from its sectionals, not even worth getting a hotel.
Florida is (according to google maps) about 2 hours away from its
sections. There are teams, I assume, that travel longer, yet
sectionals is frequently the closest tournament teams go to (at least
here up north). Travel isnt a legitimate reason to ditch the series.
Regionals is something else entirely. Not only was it a 2 hour drive,
but the hodags beat Iowa on universe point at regions. Had it gone
the other way it would have, undoubtedly, been the greatest moment in
many of the Iowa players ultimate careers. Iowa did better against
the hodags than any team at nationals, yet they arent C1. Regional
teams are competition.
Take a glance at Florida's schedule, just to have apt comparison to
Brodie's interview. Only in sectionals and regionals they did NOT
play in power pools. How is this not apt competition? IF I am
remembering correctly, wasnt Arizona a team that wasn't in the power
pools at TiV? Didnt they lose to a team that wouldnt have been C1?
Is that what they're trying to avoid?
That game, the shot at the elite teams, is what I live for, what I
train for, what I yearn for. I play to get to play Oklahoma, or
Michigan, or Minnesota, or Wisconsin.
The college series gives every team a shot. C1 would give 27 teams a
shot.
I want my shot.
Shy
purple.leisure
Western? is that Western washington? and UBC in my opinion has a
better case of being in the northwest over some of those teams. There
are some other teams on the list of "top twenty five" that I don't
get. Brown? another team. I'm not against these teams in particular
but I don't get how the teams where chosen. I deffinitly think it's an
interesting idea. If this makes ultimate a "real sport" than like all
other "real sports" goodbye to the underdog. Look at college football
and basketball. All of the top talent go to a few schools. Yes in
march madness you have the cindarella story but they are usually not a
real contender for the national championship. So I guess this means
more championships for Wisconsin and Florida. The best youth players
will now want to go where the "real" championship is played. and they
aren't going to get there by going to a smaller school and trying to
help the small school build it's program. The small school doesn't
even have a chance. Still an interesting idea though.
Axl
Ultimate. Congratulations to Cultimate, specifically Skip and Cyle,
for being the revolutionary leader of one biggest and most significant
steps Ultimate has ever taken. Ever since I started playing Ultimate 5
years ago it has been extremely frustrating to see Ultimate in such a
state of relative stagnation. I almost always get the same general
response when I tell people I play Ultiamte, “What’s that?” or “Oh,
that game where you throw the frisbee at a basket?”. As a player who
takes significant pride in increasing athletic ability and pushing
myself to my limits it is so frustrating that the awareness of what
Ultimate truly is has not come anywhere close to its potential. I
spend literally 3 hours in the gym everyday and I eat 4800 calories a
day, sticking to a strict diet of 8 meals a day all to become the best
player I can possibly be. Conference 1 is the answer to the serious
athlete’s prayers for higher quality Ultimate. Conference 1 sets the
new generation of Ultimate apart. Conference 1 dramatically increases
the sport’s legitimacy and potential for growth.
For the school’s that were left out of the initial selection, it
should only serve as fuel for their improvement. I think it is within
all possibility for the establishment for a Conference 2 as the
success of Conference 1 skyrockets.
We, as a Ultimate community, are now so much closer to becoming a
legitimate sport. We can now attract more athletes and there is no
limit to the level of play that will follow. There will always be pick-
up Ultimate around the country, people will still find Ultimate in the
same sorts that many of us did. The only difference is that now there
is a clear, definite, stable, legitimate, and efficient establishment
set in place that will promote the growth and furthering of the game
in a totally new way.
Cultimate has already proven its abilities is setting up and running
the best tournaments. There is absolutely no authentic reason not to
trust that they will only that that to the next level with the
expansion of their program.
Thank you Cultimate. Thank you Conference 1. Thank you Cyle. Thank you
Skip.
Axl
15
Kansas Ultimate
buddy...@yahoo.com
besides the fact that you would be bitching just like every other team
who didnt make it if kansas hadnt been chosen...what are you trying to
say here "There is absolutely no authentic reason not to trust that
they will only that that to the next level with the expansion of their
program."
-ps read about cyle stealing money from his team and then losing it
all
also, kansas does not deserve to be there
agreed that ultimate needs to be changed.
not sure if cultimate should lead the charge, but even if this is
unsuccessful (hopefully), the movement will have been made, and change
will come more rapidly
Adam Dyer
be able to qualify. Having so many teams compete for 1 bid is
absurd. How would it be proper to judge amongst Williams, LPC,
Western Washington, USF, Cornell, Iowa etc... they play few games
between each other and even with the 13 or so tournaments announced
they aren't very likely to play against each other that much.
I like the idea if it has more qualifiers for nationals outside of C1.
pooner
> march madness you have the cindarella story but they are usually not a
> real contender for the national championship.
...have absolutely no idea about how to implement it, but I wish
cultimate COULD pull off something like the NCAA tournament. March
Madness is possibly the most thrilling college sports event of the
year; c'mon, how many people have filled out a bracket, guessed on
upsets, and watched where their money went, and enjoyed it? and
cinderellas DO get their due in the tournament, although they rarely
take it ALL the way, but still beat the Floridas occasionally. AND
there's usually a different champion every year.
still, have no idea how it would work, but it would give cultimate
something better to do than ruin ultimate for everyone else.
pooner
aarons...@gmail.com
fact that UPA College Nationals are not an accurate representation of
of the top teams in college ultimate and that the UPA system of
picking teams is clunky at best. I'm not ready to jump on board and
say that this is the best system yet, but I am extremely interested to
see how well Cultimate will deal with the complaints that are
obviously going to arise. Historically the UPA has been
unapologetically slow about changing the format or re-working its
current system. If Conference 1 is in fact a success I think it will
be in large part because it will have the ability, because of it's
smaller structure, to change more quickly. No system is born perfect
but and think another group competing against the UPA to make ultimate
better is a good thing. Maybe this will make them understand that
there is a very strong desire for a more competitive system.
Aaron
Erik
Conference-1 would absolutely destroy many of the teams that aren't
included in the competition. The mountain of effort put in by my team
to recruit for our A-team, build our B-team, and to become the most
competitive team we can be this year, would be absolutely crushed by
an illegitimate nationals championship. Arizona didn't have an
amazing 2008 season by luck; we set the team goal of becoming one of
the best teams in the nation early in the Fall, and many on the team
believed a National Championship was possible. We laid the foundation
for our storybook season through week after week of intense
practicing, track workouts, plyometrics and weightlifting. Like every
other year, we learned from our mistakes last year, and have
significantly changed this year's program and renewed our motivation
in an effort to do better. I can't imagine other "non-elite" teams
haven't experienced something similar, and I am incredibly honored
whenever I meet players from those teams who are inspired by our
underdog success. There are many such teams who are training harder
than they ever have before to get a chance to play at the highest
level. To deny ANY team the chance to compete Nationally would be a
tremendous blow to any team's competitive spirit, resulting in a whole
lot of really bad ultimate teams.
Not only will the 2009 season be thrown out the window to
experimentation, but Conference-1 leaves our college season in the
hands of a few people (who have a very large interest in money) rather
than a democratically elected board. Exactly how much are Skip, Cyle
and 5-Ultimate going to make if this goes through? Why should I
entrust the future of college ultimate into two people's hands? Are
the current elite teams all that matter in competitive college
ultimate? Those "top" teams are the ones who stand to benefit from
Conference-1, while any aspirations of other teams to become great
turn into the impossible. One of the most attractive aspects of
playing Ultimate is that any team has a shot through dedication and
smart training - Arizona is proof of that. I have spent the last four
years of my life with the help of many teammates and friends like Joe
Kershner to build the most competitive ultimate team that I can with
one holy grail in mind: to be the best. The personal sacrifices that
were required by Arizona players in the past, let alone already in
this off season are immeasurable. Conference-1 would not only be a
completely illegitimate championship considering every team in the
Nation doesn't have a chance to compete, but would shatter the hearts
of players and teams like mine. Winning C-1, instead, would simply
give that team a claim to "Being the best out of 25 teams that Skip
and Cycle picked, plus one other one." Doesn't quite have the same
ring to it as National Champions.
Erik Gafni
2008 Captain of Arizona
#49
joel....@gmail.com
reaction is WOW! What a bombshell.
It does bring up all kinds of questions and it will be interesting to
see how the next several months play out in the negotiations between
Cultimate and the UPA. I think there is a balance to be found that
will allow the organizations to co-exist and thrive, but finding the
right balance could be tricky. If we use other sports as models we
see that, for example, the NCAA runs college basketball but USA
Basketball runs international teams and supports local organizations
as well as coach and youth development. Something similar may be in
store for the UPA.
I think the eligibility issues are still a huge issue. If negotiated
properly, perhaps Cultimate can still require their participating team
members to be UPA members and go through the UPA rostering process.
That would alleviate that burden from a Cultimate organization that
surely must be strained by more than tripling the number of
tournaments they are running this year. Many people that also
criticized the idea because it seems elitist and to some extent it
is. However, it would be foolhardy for any organization to attempt to
include every college team in its first year. That is just way too
many teams and tournaments to manage without first developing the
system to support it. I do not know what the Cultimate plans for the
future are, but it is easy to see how the model they are developing
could be expanded to more teams next year (say 8 per division) and
perhaps even eventually expanded to correspond to current NCAA
conferences. It would also seem possible to develop a Conference 2 and
even a Conference 3 for smaller schools or "B" teams. The UPA is
already in the process of developing a second college division (or
will be soon) to allow smaller schools to play more competitive games
and have their own national championship. It would seem that the
Cultimate movement could be viewed as a step in this direction. It
does take away some of the thrill the smaller schools get by playing
an "elite" team, but NCAA DII and DIII sports still thrive and
Ultimate at smaller schools could as well.
Finally, one thing that has always bothered me a bit about the UPA is
that it really does not do a very good job of marketing itself and
drawing in corporate dollars to support itself. It does appear the
Cultimate is much better at this and indeed needs to be so as it is a
for profit venture. The end result of all of this may mean more
sponsorship dollars for the UPA, which can go into a more focused
mission (youth ultimate, coach training, international play, etc).
I will still have to mull this whole thing over some more, but I think
my initial reaction is more positive than negative. If successful, I
think it will bring the possibility for much greater public exposure
and a more "professional" presentation of the sport.
The next couple months will be interesting.
joel
The Truck
help the growth of ultimate. But I have yet to see anyone give an
explanation as to *how* this will help growth.
How is eliminating 90% of college teams from the National Championship
going to encourage growth?
The UPA has worked hard to hold elections, votes, and conferences on
the changes needed for the sport of Ultimate. How is it possible that
so many are willing to give up their voice, and let 2 people determine
the fate of the college ultimate championships? The UPA has a staff
of dedicated people that work their ass to run the series. (I can't
believe someone actually said "As for Cultimate basically paying the
UPA to determine players' eligibility, does the UPA really spend that
much on determining eligibility?").
Conference 1 is going to cripple the spread of competitive college
ultimate. The UPA series is working. In the past 10 years the number
of college teams has growth by several hundred percent, in large part
because every team has a shot.
I cannot see this change as anything more than elitist teams being
amazingly selfish.
nichol...@gmail.com
If I was the coach of a C1 team, I'd start teaching my players how to
play in refereed games - cheat but try not to get caught. For
example, start elbowing cutters because it'd be hard for a ref to
catch it.
What happens when these players try and go play non-C1 games (club,
hat tourneys, etc)? They'll carry over their intentional cheating
tactics.
Also, if you want your C1 team to compete well, you'll do the same
thing that college football teams do - hire refs for your practices.
This is because you want your players to know what they can get away
with in actual games. Does C1 realize the cost involved in hiring a
couple refs for every practice??
Hazera 36
I've heard so far have been "my team this" and "I work so hard" blah
blah... sounds kinda selfish to me...
this might not be the right answer to the stagnation of college
ultimate but it gets the ball rolling.
I played for a team that most defiantly wouldn't have qualified for
this elite bracket stuff none the less I still think it's great
something is happening. By doing C1 you create DII with the UPA and
have two college championships to play for. Yeah one may be a little
more elite than the other but it levels the playing fields in both
divisions and gives more teams a crack at playing in some sort of
championship while at the same time letting those who are on the
outside looking in have a chance, although it is slim, to break into
the elite.
Also this idea of decreased growth is bogus. You think that having an
elite division will decrease the number of new ultimate programs?
When was the last time a new program went directly to the top? So
with C1 you now have a DII (UPA) giving these newer teams a shorter
road to competitive play with other not-so-elite programs all trying
to get to the top of the not-so-elite mountain. Why wouldn't there be
growth here? It doesn't make ultimate less popular does it?
Honestly if people want to talk about good change we should probably
just kick it directly to a single elimination 64 team bracket. More
teams, more story lines, and hopefully some elimination of this
retarded wild card format based on performance done 365 days prior...
now that's just funny.
Change is good.
colinm...@gmail.com
> Yet another reason why C1 is a bad idea: the impact of refereed games
>
> If I was the coach of a C1 team, I'd start teaching my players how to
> play in refereed games - cheat but try not to get caught. For
> example, start elbowing cutters because it'd be hard for a ref to
> catch it.
>
> What happens when these players try and go play non-C1 games (club,
> hat tourneys, etc)? They'll carry over their intentional cheating
> tactics.
That's right, Nick. Find a pinnacle of integrity in the Cultimate
organization to share your concern about the impact of egregious
cheating in non-C1 competition. I think Cyle Van Auken may be your
man.
Baer
>
> this might not be the right answer to the stagnation of college
> ultimate but it gets the ball rolling.
>
> I played for a team that most defiantly wouldn't have qualified for
> this elite bracket stuff none the less I still think it's great
> something is happening. By doing C1 you create DII with the UPA and
> have two college championships to play for. Yeah one may be a little
> more elite than the other but it levels the playing fields in both
> divisions and gives more teams a crack at playing in some sort of
> championship while at the same time letting those who are on the
> outside looking in have a chance, although it is slim, to break into
> the elite.
>
> Also this idea of decreased growth is bogus. You think that having an
> elite division will decrease the number of new ultimate programs?
> When was the last time a new program went directly to the top? So
> with C1 you now have a DII (UPA) giving these newer teams a shorter
> road to competitive play with other not-so-elite programs all trying
> to get to the top of the not-so-elite mountain. Why wouldn't there be
> growth here? It doesn't make ultimate less popular does it?
>
I agree with Hazera for the most part here. This may provide more
growth opportunity and give more teams a chance to contend or play
deeper into the UPA series.
It may also fail and soon become a footnote in Ultimate history like
MLU or Cuervo. However, it is a bold effort to do something bigger
with high-level Ultimate and is worth a shot.
Alex Peters
of the game" and all them cheatin' bastards that play reffed
basketball, football, soccer, hockey, and baseball are out their
throwin' 'bows at each other's head in rec league while the refs
aren't looking.
Oh, and no one ever cheats in ultimate now.
On Oct 15, 10:09 am, nicholas.k...@gmail.com wrote:
pfkmerl
> Honestly if people want to talk about good change we should probably
> just kick it directly to a single elimination 64 team bracket. More
> teams, more story lines, and hopefully some elimination of this
> retarded wild card format based on performance done 365 days prior...
> now that's just funny.
>
> Change is good.
Choosing the Top 25 to compete in every game meaningful to the
National Championship is much more far-reaching than the wild card
format.
Some change is good. Some change is bad.
Ending a post with a false declarative sentence is bad.
Andrew Dickerson
> For the school’s that were left out of the initial selection, it
> should only serve as fuel for their improvement. I think it is within
> all possibility for the establishment for a Conference 2 as the
> success of Conference 1 skyrockets.
I only have 4-5 years to play college ultimate. I don't have time to
wait and see if this is a success or failure. I want all my games to
count for something not just a year or two's worth.
colinm...@gmail.com
> Right, because sportsmanship doesn't exist unless it's labeled "spirit
> of the game" and all them cheatin' bastards that play reffed
> basketball, football, soccer, hockey, and baseball are out their
> throwin' 'bows at each other's head in rec league while the refs
> aren't looking.
>
> Oh, and no one ever cheats in ultimate now.
Your hyperbole does not effectively counter the reasonable point made
by Kohn. Are there ways to minimize the impact? Sure. Should we be
confident that Cultimate will strike an appropriate balance? I have
no idea.
CBrowning
> wait and see if this is a success or failure. I want all my games to
> count for something not just a year or two's worth.
I think that is the attitude that is going to kill this idea. College
players are not going to be willing to give up their limited years of
eligibility to play in a start up system. The risk is not worth it to
them. They do not want to suffer the growing pains now for a better
product down the road, when they will not get the benefit of that
better product.
It's kind of lame, but I if I were in their shoes I am not sure I
would think differently.
Chris
Katherine Wooten
"Cultimate also wants to make money off a division which has been, in
the past, almost completely run for the financial betterment of
individual teams."
This should alarm any college team or league that currently runs any
successful mid-to-high level college tournaments. Until Cultimate
came onto the scene, most (all?) college tournaments were executed as
fundraisers for the home team. Which is a HUGE benefit in a sport in
which not many schools provide attractive funding to their club
programs (or frisbee in particular). Admittedly, I don't know what
kind of agreement Cultimate makes with the men's and women's teams (as
far as how much money teams make when they allow Cultimate to take off
several thousand off the top). It does bother me that this is a money-
making venture for Skip, first and foremost.
Brodie mentions that partaking in the Conference 1 series will be less
expensive than their former seasons. However, for their 2008 season
he was listing out a whole group of tournaments that Skip engineered
and created -- It does get expensive to fly to three tournaments in
the spring -- Vegas, Stanford, and Centex -- and pay $350 a pop to
play. And the format that Brodie is championing now is one that
existed until just a few years ago. Teams played a majority of their
tournaments regionally, and might fly to a Stanford Invite (or CCC if
you were on the west coast) for top competition. There are plenty of
East Coast tournaments that have withered and diminished because their
own regional competition took their athleticism and their dollars
elsewhere. And Skip was at the forefront of that movement.
How expensive exactly is this contract with Conference 1 going to be?
$2000 a team? $3000 a team? Is it going to prohibit teams from
participating in the UPA Series or will they be able to do both?
Secondly, does Cultimate plan to provide insurance to those players
participating in their tournaments? This is one oft-overlooked
benefit of signing a UPA waiver and playing in the Sectionals,
Regionals, and Nationals tournaments. If anything were to happen on
the field site, the UPA has general liability insurance in place to
protect itself and players.
I do recognize the great job that Skip has done in cultivating
mainstream sponsorships for the sport, especially in association with
tournaments. And I think that the idea of having a "Grand Prix" style
tournament format leading into the Series is a good one. However,
this is a change that could be made within the current UPA structure
(and has been discussed at the Strategic Revolution Meetings). I
would much rather see Skip use his money-making savvy and ideas within
the existing system instead of potentially dividing a very competitive
division in a rash manner that does undermine the existing governing
body of ultimate.
Katherine
Max
program. It would be like a less fair, more disorganized version of
the UPA's current system. Cultimate has done a great job running
tournaments, but it is a big stretch to try to run all of college
ultimate. The UPA has a lot of experience verifying college
eligibility, and cultimate will probably spend a lot more money to
attempt getting their eligibility verification system up to par than
the UPA did to begin with. This division 1 makles it a lot easier for
the selected teams to go to nationals than everyone else. With the
UPA, every team starts out equal in the series. Why should we give up
this equality? I can see the the reason for the selected teams to
participate; they have a much better shot at making nationals now!
This isn't fair. The UPA adjusted their series with extra strength
bids, so that the best teams would usually make it (not always). This
system makes it so that the weaker teams still make nationals, while
better teams will suffer because they haven't been chosen. This is a
horrible idea and is a worse version of the UPA series.
celebrat...@gmail.com
Whose coup is it? The UPA has benefited tremendously from Cultimate's
tournaments in the last 5 years. Nationals is better because more info
is known about teams. Three of the four strongest tournaments last
year were Cultimate operations.
And as for equality.... that's going out the door soon anyway. The UPA
is already moving towards a tiered system, so now they just have a
scapegoat.
I think Cultimate is taking a bold step the UPA has so far been
unwilling (or too slow -- just as damning) to take.
MCA
swill...@yahoo.com
A coup?
Unfair?
Giving up equality?
Dear Mr. Vanillathunder,
Please calm down. This is not the end of ultimate.
Play on.
-swill
Shane
> the past, almost completely run for the financial betterment of
> individual teams."
>
> This should alarm any college team or league that currently runs any
> successful mid-to-high level college tournaments. Until Cultimate
> came onto the scene, most (all?) college tournaments were executed as
> fundraisers for the home team. Which is a HUGE benefit in a sport in
> which not many schools provide attractive funding to their club
> programs (or frisbee in particular). Admittedly, I don't know what
> kind of agreement Cultimate makes with the men's and women's teams (as
> far as how much money teams make when they allow Cultimate to take off
> several thousand off the top). It does bother me that this is a money-
> making venture for Skip, first and foremost.
>
> East Coast tournaments that have withered and diminished because their
> own regional competition took their athleticism and their dollars
> elsewhere. And Skip was at the forefront of that movement.
>
> How expensive exactly is this contract with Conference 1 going to be?
> $2000 a team? $3000 a team? Is it going to prohibit teams from
> participating in the UPA Series or will they be able to do both?
As I understand it, a C1 contract does not cost anything. By taking
away the need for a bigger budget, the need for individual team
fundrasing goes away. This allows players to be just players, not
administrators, TDs, customer service, and event planners as well. If
Skip runs a good tournament, why not let him, and get back to the
reasons people join teams, to play.
Aside from CCC, and maybe Terminus, I can't think of tournament that
consistently brings in the top competition. From the C1 website, there
are a lot more tournaments in the midwest and east coast. So I think
he's doing a good job of bringing the competition back from the west.
Finally, the man's gotta eat. It takes a lot of time to work this
stuff out, so why shouldn't he get paid for it? The students pay a ton
more in tuition, right? For the much longer hours that Skip puts in,
he gets paid less than a teacher. He takes great care of those that
help him put this stuff together, making sure they get there's before
he gets his. If you think his "big corporate salary" of ramen noodles
is going to buy him a yacht and not find it's way back into the
ultimate community, you are sorely mistaken.
colinm...@gmail.com
> eligibility, and cultimate will probably spend a lot more money to
> attempt getting their eligibility verification system up to par than
> the UPA did to begin with.
It is easy enough to weasel around the UPA's eligibility
restrictions. It just takes some outright dishonesty. If it's even
easier to get around the C1 restrictions, then maybe I'll play in the
C1 series this year. Surely Cyle won't punish a bit of dishonesty
(referring to his favorable view of cheating, not his alleged/admitted
embezzling).
Robert Dulabon
Adam Dyer
Would the 25 teams in C1 be subjected to a qualification for the next
year's league in the same mold as the way the English Premier Footbol
league works? There has to be some sort of repercussions for a team
falling well below a standard of play.
College Ultimate in my opinion is akin to College Basketball in terms
of energy exerted in playing a game. Also, it isn't all that
difficult (physically on the individual) to hold a 32 or 64 team
single elimination tournament in a single 3-day weekend. Why not
model it after the NCAA Basketball qualification (automatic bids for
conference champions, etc...)? You could even have Gerics put his
NUMP to good use and possibly get better voter turnout... (from what I
saw of his total votes counted, it was far below the number of actual
delegates) because it would actually mean something when selecting the
at-large bids.
Of course, this is all only good if you really want Ultimate to go in
the direction of a legitimized NCAA sport.
Respectfully,
Random Dood
Pete
in any collegiate sport, club or college. If they really wanted to
test drive it, they need more teams. Would the argument be as vicious
if the line had been drawn lower? If the argument wasn't "we won't
take Arizona or North Texas" as opposed to "Which is going to be the
last NW team, Whitman or Oregon State?" The reason the NCAA Basketball
is the most legitimate championship is because the 66th team in really
doesn't have as much reason to complain. The BCS gets complained about
all the time, and this is more limiting than the BCS.
Wormser
has made this point, and if I missed it I apologize, but it seems like
Cultimate has suddenly given a lot of power to the players of the 24
teams of Conference 1. I would hope that before they agree to sign
contracts to join up with this concept that they realize the immense
bargaining power they now have as a collective group. If there is
something about Conference 1 that they don't like they could use that
pull to force Skip and Cyle to change it. For example, Cultimate
wants to implement referees necessitating a new rule system. If the
group of teams doesn't agree with this rule or that, they could use
their pull to get some immediate change.
And since Mr. Smith named it as the #1 reason why ultimate is
stagnant, is anyone else curious as to how Cultimate intends to get
enough refs at each tournament? Who will be training them on the new
system? Are only the Conference 1 games at a tournament like Trouble
in Vegas going to be reffed? How much will they be paid? and will
that factor into the bid price of the teams that are not members of
Conference 1?
So I would suggest taking your time to the 50 or so captains that are
working out whether this is the correct choice for their own team as
well as the hundreds of others around the country.
Adam "wormser" Bunn
UCSD alumni
Head Beagle
and all them cheatin' bastards that play reffed
> basketball, football, soccer, hockey, and baseball are out their
> throwin' 'bows at each other's head in rec league while the refs
> aren't looking.
>
Apparently you have never played rec league, adult soccer or
basketball where yes, people are throwing bows at each others heads,
whether the ref is looking or not. Not all leagues are like this, mind
you, but a lot are.
qixx
> I find this idea abhorrent.
> Is going to sectionals really that much of a problem? Madison is an
> hour away from its sectionals, not even worth getting a hotel.
> Florida is (according to google maps) about 2 hours away from its
> sections. There are teams, I assume, that travel longer, yet
> sectionals is frequently the closest tournament teams go to (at least
> here up north). Travel isnt a legitimate reason to ditch the series.
> Regionals is something else entirely. Not only was it a 2 hour drive,
> but the hodags beat Iowa on universe point at regions. Had it gone
> the other way it would have, undoubtedly, been the greatest moment in
> many of the Iowa players ultimate careers. Iowa did better against
> the hodags than any team at nationals, yet they arent C1. Regional
> teams are competition.
>
Travel to sectionals in Big Sky Section can be a real problem. The
section covers parts of the following states: Montana, Idaho, Utah,
Nevada, Wyoming and possibly more. They often have trouble getting
more than 4 teams to show up. From the two farthest schools i know of
in the section it is a 17+ hour drive according to google maps. This
means around 3 hours by air and i don't know any teams that have
planes in that section. That can be a big trip for sectionals. The
team that went to regionals last year from the section had a 15+ hour
drive to regionals (around 13 for sectionals). More regional
tournaments would be a great improvement.
I used to play for Brigham Young (not the only team in the nation that
didn't play Sunday for religious reasons - just the best known) so i'm
split on this. i'd love the sport to become more like an NCAA sport
because then the "BYU Rule" would come into play. But this would mess
over most tournaments because they could not eliminate BYU because of
sunday play issues (lawsuits) and mean that anytime they have a chance
for any kind of title (even tourney champ) the tournament would have
to accommodate them (no sunday play). I did not mind not playing the
2nd day of tournaments. So if any team that rule would affect could
qualify then it would really cause problems for any organizing body.
But the prospect of more play - the "league" would have to (lawsuits)
schedule BYU once it grew to say 100 teams as they tend to be around
75 in the UPA standings annually - is very appealing. The current
system does not have this problem as BYU is willing to forfeit their
first Sunday game as needed and be out of tournaments.
Jeff
budgets, Ultimate can really give up the idea of becoming an NCAA
sport.
bww
longer at Florida right?' does Florida deserve to be there? Florida
wasnt a nationals team before Geheret and Gibson, then were a great
team. Now, i agree with brodie, (from the huddle interview) "I like
the set up they have where we go straight into Nationals" who the
hell wouldnt? but wait, has Florida ever made natties without
Gibson? Werent they a darkhorse in 06 without him? Do they deserve
to be there?
Same goes for the Hodags, they lost a LOT of guys from the last 2
years. Do they deserve to be there?
Same goes for Michigan, they lost Will Neff right? Do they deserve to
be there?
Same goes for Stanford, they had a down year, and lost Sherwood didnt
they? Do they deserve to be there?
Same goes for Wisconsin-B, they lost a LOT of guys. Do they deserve
to be there?
Now, im going to suggest an experiment to prove they belong. A series
of tournaments in which we ramp up the competition quickly, have them
play easier competition and when they win, they can move up.
Muff
>
> - Show quoted text -
How does this take away the need for individual team fundraising? For
the top 25 teams it may. What about the hundreds of other teams that
will now be paying more in order to subsidize all of the amenities for
the top teams. These lesser (in Skip and Cyle's opinion) teams will
also pay for Skip and Cyle's salary along with all of their cronies
who will help them run these things.
I didn't know that Cultimate published Skip's yearly wages. Can you
post the link? Where is the proof to support these statements.
I would also like someone to explain to me what makes Cultimate
tournaments so great. Everyone who supports them says this. Is it
the crappy fields in Vegas? Is it the exorbitant entry fees? Is it
the way that they ignore any teams not in the power pools (much like
their current proposal)? Ive been to some Cyle run tournaments. When
he was desperate for money at FWC '07 I remember outrage from many of
the teams now supporting Cultimate. That was a $300+ tournament at
which water was scarce. For some reason people refuse to remember
things that happened in the not so distant past.
Also Skip is not a hero for bringing the tournaments back out of the
west. He brought them there in the first place.
Muff
clr...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
good question... what does make Cultimate tournaments so great? yeah
i agree that Vegas is a cool city for college students to visit, but
the majority of players arent even 21. the fees are always pretty
ridiculous, and the fields not that great. is it because 5 ultimate
shows up and sells overpriced cheap-quality merch? because i'm sure VC
would love the opportunity to attend a big name tournament in the
Spring and sell merchandise.
other tournaments can be set up with the remaining top-tier teams, in
cities that are much more accessable, cheaper fees, quality fields...
we don't all have to support cultimate, or continue attending their
tournaments.
skipper
The biggest problem I see is that the people running this are doing so
to primarily make money. Making money in itself is not bad.
Something seems wrong, however, when two small groups of people are
reaping ALL the money off the sport which they are governing and
creating the rules and guidelines for.
When the governing body of a sport like ultimate, which has 400 +
college teams competing, has it's main purpose aligned with making a
buck, the decision makers' (first of all, I don't have a reason to
trust these guys for shit... do you?) aren't going to take into
account what's best for the sport as a whole. Rather, they will make
decisions which will benefit them best financially. Having two random
dudes select the teams that will compete on the highest level and
receive the most attention, so that these two dudes themselves, not
the schools, can make money, seems fucked up to me. It appears that
these two guys will manipulate schools to make themselves the most
money possible and if, as a secondary or tertiary goal, ultimate can
also benefit, then that will be an added bonus.
It appears from the article on the huddle that Conference1 is asking
for a lot from the UPA (legitimacy and legacy of the UPA name,
resources for determining eligibility, etc) but isn't offerring much
to the majority who play the sport. For all of its flaws the UPA
generally always has its members best interests in mind. These two
guys? I wouldn't trust them to give a shit about me or what's good
for the sport if their primary objective is to make money.
Chris Skipper
Bodhi #93
Tufts Alum
faddy
CART/IRL.
AFL/NFL.
ABA/NBA.
Majors/Negro leagues.
this has all been done before...
bfd
Katherine Wooten
Vegas 2008 (College) alone:
96 teams
$25 (minimum) per player (after January 18 it was $35)
Let's say 20 players per team pay to play, and they all sign up on
time for the $25 fee:
96 x 20 x 25 = $48,000
Even if fields cost $10,000 and supplies cost another $5,000, Skip's
doing alright for himself. He clears $30,000+ for one weekend on
tournament fees alone. This doesn't even include the money from disc
and shirt sales. And how many tournaments is he running these days?
I don't think anyone needs to accuse Skip of eating Ramen.
Katherine
Jerrod
I think the idea of "Conference 1" is taking the sport of ultimate in
the right direction. It seems to me like the biggest issue people are
having is including the "fringe" non-Conference 1 teams into the
championship mix. I agree that this is a huge issue. I'm just going
to throw out some ideas that might make some sense for Skip to try
out.
I believe they did a relatively good job of picking their "Top 25."
Clearly you can make cases to include and exclude some of the these
teams that are chosen in this first year. However, the programs
picked have had a history of success over that last 5 years or so.
The first year doing this is going to be the most difficult, so I'll
cut them some slack on their choices.
If I read the information correctly it appears that each of the 25
"C1" teams are required to attend 5 tournaments. I'm not sure if a
couple tournaments have mandatory attendance for all "C1" teams.
However, at the tournaments that only have 10-15 "C1" teams, you can
fill the remaining places with the bids from the best out of
conference teams (all current 'big' tournaments are done like this
now). At these tournaments allow for teams to play up into the C1
bracket an fall down into the "lower" bracket. You can have the
winners of the "lower"bracket play the losers of the C1 bracket in a
cross-over. The winner gets to compete in the Conference 1 bracket on
Sunday. "Out of conference teams" gain points for playing up or
winning the lower brackets, while the C1 teams that drop lose points
or gain no points.
Deciding on a final championship tournament field: Lots of Options
1) I say you take the 5 C1 Region winners plus the next 9 best C1
teams (point system/overall record, whatever they use). Then you give
6 at large bids to the next 6 best teams based on the years results at
these Cultimate tournaments. These 6 teams automatically replace the
bottom 6 C1 teams at years end and will be in "conference 1" at the
beginning of the following year.
2) Better yet, to be more inclusive you invite the top 20 or so "non-
conference teams" to a Nationals Qualifying tournament and let them
battle it out for the final 6 spots. You can even include the teams
ranked 15-25 in "Conference 1" in this tournament and give them a shot
to prove they still belong with the "best." You'd have 30 or so teams
playing for 6 spots at the "conference 1 championship." Makes for
some good ultimate. Top 6 finishers make the tourney, top 10
finishers are the last members of "conference 1" for the next year.
Basically, I think this can be a great idea. However, it needs to be
more inclusive for the "fringe" teams. Many of the teams currently
not included deserve a chance to beat "the chosen" ones for the
National Championship. This should encourage people to still attend
the Cultimate tournaments because a birth to the title is still in
their grasp. Obviously, I'd have to look into this more and I'm just
making this up on the fly while bored at work, but I think a happy
medium can be found.
gear...@gmail.com
> Due to Title IX and increasing pressure on athletic department
> budgets, Ultimate can really give up the idea of becoming an NCAA
> sport.
>
Actually, due to Title IX I think there is a good chance of ultimate
becoming an NCAA sport. Because of the way in which Title IX is
enforced, the number of women involved in intercollegiate athletics at
a particular school determines the number of scholarships available
for men at that school. So, for instance, it would be advantageous
for a D-I school with a big time football program to have women's
ultimate, because, under Title IX, they would be allowed to give out
more scholarships.
CDre...@gmail.com
body they are sort of upending??
Douglas T Lilley
> On Oct 15, 5:29 am, pooner <RyGuyB...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes in
>
> > > march madness you have the cindarella story but they are usually not a
> > > real contender for the national championship.
>
> > ...have absolutely no idea about how to implement it, but I wish
> > cultimate COULD pull off something like the NCAA tournament. March
> > Madness is possibly the most thrilling college sports event of the
> > year; c'mon, how many people have filled out a bracket, guessed on
> > upsets, and watched where their money went, and enjoyed it? and
> > cinderellas DO get their due in the tournament, although they rarely
> > take it ALL the way, but still beat the Floridas occasionally. AND
> > there's usually a different champion every year.
>
> > still, have no idea how it would work, but it would give cultimate
> > something better to do than ruin ultimate for everyone else.
>
> > pooner
>
> Conference-1 would absolutely destroy many of the teams that aren't
> included in the competition. The mountain of effort put in by my team
> to recruit for our A-team, build our B-team, and to become the most
> competitive team we can be this year, would be absolutely crushed by
> an illegitimate nationals championship. Arizona didn't have an
> amazing 2008 season by luck; we set the team goal of becoming one of
> the best teams in the nation early in the Fall, and many on the team
> believed a National Championship was possible. We laid the foundation
> for our storybook season through week after week of intense
> practicing, track workouts, plyometrics and weightlifting. Like every
> other year, we learned from our mistakes last year, and have
> significantly changed this year's program and renewed our motivation
> in an effort to do better. I can't imagine other "non-elite" teams
> haven't experienced something similar, and I am incredibly honored
> whenever I meet players from those teams who are inspired by our
> underdog success. There are many such teams who are training harder
> than they ever have before to get a chance to play at the highest
> level. To deny ANY team the chance to compete Nationally would be a
> tremendous blow to any team's competitive spirit, resulting in a whole
> lot of really bad ultimate teams.
>
> Not only will the 2009 season be thrown out the window to
> experimentation, but Conference-1 leaves our college season in the
> hands of a few people (who have a very large interest in money) rather
> than a democratically elected board. Exactly how much are Skip, Cyle
> and 5-Ultimate going to make if this goes through? Why should I
> entrust the future of college ultimate into two people's hands? Are
> the current elite teams all that matter in competitive college
> ultimate? Those "top" teams are the ones who stand to benefit from
> Conference-1, while any aspirations of other teams to become great
> turn into the impossible. One of the most attractive aspects of
> playing Ultimate is that any team has a shot through dedication and
> smart training - Arizona is proof of that. I have spent the last four
> years of my life with the help of many teammates and friends like Joe
> Kershner to build the most competitive ultimate team that I can with
> one holy grail in mind: to be the best. The personal sacrifices that
> were required by Arizona players in the past, let alone already in
> this off season are immeasurable. Conference-1 would not only be a
> completely illegitimate championship considering every team in the
> Nation doesn't have a chance to compete, but would shatter the hearts
> of players and teams like mine. Winning C-1, instead, would simply
> give that team a claim to "Being the best out of 25 teams that Skip
> and Cycle picked, plus one other one." Doesn't quite have the same
> ring to it as National Champions.
>
> Erik Gafni
> 2008 Captain of Arizona
> #49-
Half the national tourney teams from C1, the other half from the rest
of the country. It ony seems fair. And congrats to the U of AZ guys,
great season last year and great example as to why you can't have all
(but one) the nationals teams from one chosen conference. I do think
the idea has some merits but it need to be finessed.
PS: My validation word was "hyment". That must mean something in the
context. Or maybe not.
Daag Alemayehu
wrote:
> Let's say 20 players per team pay to play, and they all sign up on
> time for the $25 fee:
>
> 96 x 20 x 25 = $48,000
>
> Even if fields cost $10,000 and supplies cost another $5,000, Skip's
> doing alright for himself. He clears $30,000+ for one weekend on
> tournament fees alone. This doesn't even include the money from disc
> and shirt sales. And how many tournaments is he running these days?
> I don't think anyone needs to accuse Skip of eating Ramen.
>
> Katherine
K-Woo,
I respect you and I respect your opinions, but I must respectfully say
that I think you're mistaken on this one. For starters, you're
leaving out other tournament costs, unless by "supplies" you meant
bagels, fruit, water, trainers, party location, security, beer, dinner
(if offered), party food (if offered), etc. $5,000 probably covers
all that, but we're admittedly not looking too closely at that.
Second, you have to remember Skip isn't doing this all by himself.
Cyle has to be paid I assume, plus for the tournaments Cultimate runs
in conjunction with college teams those teams are going to get a cut
of the profits. And we don't know what kind of cut they're getting -
could be 50%, could be 5%. I'd be willing to wager that it has to be
a big enough cut to make it worthwhile for them to give up hosting
their own tournaments. Cultimate also has partnerships with other
frisbee community institutions, so it wouldn't be too surprising if
they had to offer up a few thousand here or there to some of those
third parties.
Finally, Skip has been taking a lot of the money and reinvesting it in
his enterprise. Cultimate is several years old at ths point, but it
wasn't always this vast. They used to run just a couple of
tournaments and had a barebones website. These days cultimate.com is
full of slick graphics and is extremely well done. That doesn't come
cheap. Hosting doesn't come cheap either. Plus Cultimate owns a few
other websites; I know they own my old ulticentral.com domain name and
have future plans for expanding there. I'm not sure what the
relationship is between MSSUI and Cultimate, but I wouldn't be
surprised if Cultimate is bankrolling that site too.
I remember a couple of years ago I got a decent idea (from talking to
Skip himself) of how much money Skip was making off Cultimate, and
let's just say the comparisons to teachers and poor college students
eating Ramen weren't far off. Of course, that was years ago, and he
could be doing better for himself now, and all of this reinvesting of
capital could eventually produce big dividends. But I wouldn't look
at his high REVENUE and assume his PROFIT has to be high too.
Bulb
(Just a heads up: If you refuse to admit any team from the Metro East
could beat any top 5 team from another region, you might as well skip
reading this.)
I played 5 years for Delaware, a program that had previously never won
a Sectional title, let alone contend for a spot to Nationals. We
worked our asses off during the 2003-2004 season, both physically and
mentally. We traveled to high quality tournaments (albeit only those
within driving distance) and drove 20 minutes on weeknights to use a
lit field, just so we could have practices that everyone could make.
We earned the Regional title that year with our sweat and blood, and
since then Delaware has made Nationals 3 out of 4 years.
The point is, we only needed one breakout season to become a perennial
contender for a bid to Nationals. Although 2004 Delaware did not
achieve the success Arizona did at 2008 Nationals, I consider the two
situations similar, and would not be surprised to see Arizona become a
Regional powerhouse in the Southwest, year after year. Who's to say
who the next team ready to break out will be?
With the way Conference1 is structured, it will take more than a
single year to make that leap from mediocrity. And given that
eligibility is an issue in college, 2+ years is too long for some
teams to make that jump. Teams need to play OTHER teams at the elite
level to attain that level of play. They can't sit around playing
other mediocre teams and expect to get recognition on the National
level. I would be in favor of a tiered system, determined by
tournament placement and not by a scoring algorithm or selection
panel, and that leaves room for teamS (not just one) to have a
breakout season on the National scale.
Financial gain aside, Conference1 has some merit, but also has a lot
of kinks. But if the guys behind the curtain act fast enough, those
kinks could get worked out for the 2009 college season.
Bulb
#21 Delaware, 2003-2007
colinm...@gmail.com
> Same goes for Michigan, they lost Will Neff right?
No.
> Do they deserve to be there?
Based on their long history of ~9th place National finishes, probably.
Shabadoo
is that the fact that they are a profit agency is a GOOD thing. We
don't live under communism. In fact, from what I remember of 8th
grade business, our economy is based on the profit motive. Obviously
our economy is running completely smoothly so that's good. Seriously
though, Skip and Cyle's livelihoods depend on cultimate's success. If
they don't deliver a superior product, teams will leave and go back to
the UPA after a year and they're back to begging in the streets for
gambling money. I imagine they are both working 50-60 hour
weeks(probably a lot more this month) completely focusing on making
cultimate as big of a success as possible. While I'm not completely
on board with them yet, I admire their dedication and hope that they
listen to the suggestions everyone is giving.
After thinking about it for a couple of days; my vote for this year is
to put in the top two teams from each region plus the next two best
records for a total of 12 teams. This leaves four spots for wildcards
and a 16 team Nationals, which I think is solid format for the first
year. There is absolutely no way that this transition will be 100%
smooth the first year whether it's cultimate or the UPA running it.
For the future, I can't see a better solution than putting in C2 and
C3 with relegation. I like Jerrod's idea of teams getting a chance to
play to keep their spot. As an example, if Kansas finishes last in
the C1 Southwest and UNT finishes 1st in C2 Southwest, let them play
heads up for the C1 spot. Same would go for C2/C3. There are two
easy to spot problems with this. One, it's tough to get two teams to
drive somewhere for one game; and you would need referees for it.
However, if you do a tournament like Jerrod suggested; your divisions
become unbalanced. Though unlikely, you could end up with 8 teams
from Oregon/Washington and zero from all of New England. Second
problem, there are more than 75 teams in college ultimate, and I don't
see cultimate having the resources to keep track of C7 in the near
future, not to mention the female conferences.
I'm also making this up as I go and am now cutting myself off.
Ryan Thompson
Cultimate tournaments will have C1 and non-C1 divisions, and doing
well in non-C1 play provides a ranking metric for teams to get play-in
invites.
aen...@uwm.edu
elite teams attend. Look at the pools from all of the elite
tournaments and count how many non national contenders are in the
pools with the elite. Then count how many upsets happened relative to
how many didn't. At Sectionals/Regionals non elite teams look forward
to playing the elite teams in hopes of pulling the upset or at the
very least getting a facebook picture of them skying someone wearing
an elite team jersey. These games are just another chance for a season
ending injury. Point: Games that don't challenge players and push them
to improve are a waste of time and effort for everyone involved.
For all of the teams that are "snubbed"/left out of conference1. What
do you have to complain about? Chances are last year in the series you
fell short by a bid or two of going to nationals. Teams that finished
in the middle of the pack at regionals should now be thinking they
have a realistic shot at Nattionals. Call an extra practice a week, do
work, and get your ass to nationals. If you're in the central region,
you now have 3 bids to go to Nationals since the top 3 teams going to
conference1. Do you think teams that play in the non BCS bowls play
less intense than the teams playing in the BCS Championship Bowl?
Point: The Venue doesn't change the fact that you're still playing
ultimate with your team for the championship. If you let it change
that, you're insulting all the work your team has put it throughout
the year.
There's still much information that cu1timate hasn't released and
probably even more that they haven't worked out yet. There are going
to be kinks and its not going to be perfect. Its comical that so many
people cry for ultimate to be a legitimate sport and the second that
anyone follows through on an idea, theres a huge backlash.
-Sticky
#20 UW-Milwaukee
tal...@gmail.com
> There's still much information that cu1timate hasn't released and
> probably even more that they haven't worked out yet. There are going
> to be kinks and its not going to be perfect. Its comical that so many
> people cry for ultimate to be a legitimate sport and the second that
> anyone follows through on an idea, theres a huge backlash.
>
> -Sticky
> #20 UW-Milwaukee
"probably even more that they haven't worked out yet. There are going
to be kinks and its not going to be perfect."
One would hope that a company putting together a massive initiative
like this one would have planned things out and known the answers to
every last question that anybody could ask before expecting college
teams to hand them the keys to their season.
It certainly seems like they are flying by the seat of their pants and
have been very irresponsible with their presentation and failure to
work with the established entity of the UPA.
Conference 1 could work, but it could just as easily be a spectacular
failure. I wouldn't claim to know what is going to happen, but it
seems that Cultimate could have done a much better job of presenting
this
There's your backlash, Sticky.
Daag Alemayehu
> Cultimate tournaments will have C1 and non-C1 divisions, and doing
> well in non-C1 play provides a ranking metric for teams to get play-in
So for non-C1 teams, is doing well at a Cultimate tournament the ONLY
thing that matters or will Cultimate be taking into account non-C1
teams' performances at non-Cultimate tournaments too (especially if
there are other big non-Cultimate tournaments)?
rufio
> Same goes for the Hodags, they lost a LOT of guys from the last 2
> years. Do they deserve to be there?
> Same goes for Michigan, they lost Will Neff right? Do they deserve to
> be there?
> Same goes for Stanford, they had a down year, and lost Sherwood didnt
> they? Do they deserve to be there?
michigan did not lose Will Neff. They belong in the top 25. They are
certainly not the most questionable pick. That is coming from someone
who tried not to purchase anything in michigan and would have gladly
stayed at a hotel in Toledo, woken up early, and driven to the Detroit
Polo fields, ann arbor, etc. for tournaments.
Stanford's "down year" included scoring more than anyone else against
the Hodags at Nationals.
Wisconsin has lost "a lot" of guys for several years now, and they
even lost "a lot" of games (for them) at Centex last year, but they
just keep playing on Sunday at Nationals.
Maybe your point was that everyone on that list is questionable.
After all, 1 seeds lose all the time in March Madness. If so, good
point.
morfin
go muff yourself. I will elabiaorape your eyelids with my
emuffsculate. If my muffalatta is as muffy as your muffkin I will
morfin my Voldermuff until we oatwheat your bran muffin.
Jerkin' it,
Morfkin
hbr...@gmail.com
> Conference 1 is an absolutely necessary and remarkable step for
> Ultimate. Congratulations to Cultimate, specifically Skip and Cyle,
> for being the revolutionary leader of one biggest and most significant
> steps Ultimate has ever taken. Ever since I started playing Ultimate 5
> years ago it has been extremely frustrating to see Ultimate in such a
> state of relative stagnation. I almost always get the same general
> response when I tell people I play Ultiamte, “What’s that?” or “Oh,
> that game where you throw the frisbee at a basket?”. As a player who
> takes significant pride in increasing athletic ability and pushing
> myself to my limits it is so frustrating that the awareness of what
> Ultimate truly is has not come anywhere close to its potential. I
> spend literally 3 hours in the gym everyday and I eat 4800 calories a
> day, sticking to a strict diet of 8 meals a day all to become the best
> player I can possibly be. Conference 1 is the answer to the serious
> athlete’s prayers for higher quality Ultimate. Conference 1 sets the
> new generation of Ultimate apart. Conference 1 dramatically increases
> the sport’s legitimacy and potential for growth.
>
> For the school’s that were left out of the initial selection, it
> should only serve as fuel for their improvement. I think it is within
> all possibility for the establishment for a Conference 2 as the
> success of Conference 1 skyrockets.
>
> We, as a Ultimate community, are now so much closer to becoming a
> legitimate sport. We can now attract more athletes and there is no
> limit to the level of play that will follow. There will always be pick-
> up Ultimate around the country, people will still find Ultimate in the
> same sorts that many of us did. The only difference is that now there
> is a clear, definite, stable, legitimate, and efficient establishment
> set in place that will promote the growth and furthering of the game
> in a totally new way.
>
> Cultimate has already proven its abilities is setting up and running
> the best tournaments. There is absolutely no authentic reason not to
> trust that they will only that that to the next level with the
> expansion of their program.
>
> Thank you Cultimate. Thank you Conference 1. Thank you Cyle. Thank you
> Skip.
>
> Axl
> 15
> Kansas Ultimate
I hope this post is some kind of joke, but parts of it actually sound
serious...
Muff
He is a young player, who was not around for the Cyle incident, on the
team that has the most to gain from this. No further explanation
required.
joe.m...@gmail.com
> well in non-C1 play provides a ranking metric for teams to get play-in
> invites.
Yeah all two invites.
So only If my team is picked to be one of the top two teams this year
out of the 400+ college teams not in conference 1 can we have a chance
at playing in their nationals, while a team that was picked to be in
conference 1 only has to be in the top 13 out of 25 teams to make
nationals.
I think there would be more than one or two non-C1 teams who could
hang with nationals-calibur teams.
Why do teams need this anyways? The best teams can already determine
which tournaments they go to and so they don't have to play against
low-level teams if they don't want to except early in the college
series. The bottom teams that are invited to be in conference 1, many
from less competitive geographic regions, are going to sure hate
losing all the time all season.
A good team takes every game at every spring tournament seriously.
Don't say that the regular tournament season is meaningless. This is
when teams come together and college players get better.
The only people to gain here are those at the top of cultimate. A lot
of people want ultimate to be more popular and respected and some
people dream of ultimate being on tv, but if that stuff ever happened
in this situation, the only people to benefit would be the people who
own cultimate. I trust the UPA a lot more to do what's in the best
interests of the sport, the teams, and the players.
I want to see ultimate grow with more and more college students being
able to play on competitive ultimate teams. I think this proposition
would restrict the growth of teams from being decent programs to being
great programs. I think the more great teams we have, the better the
sport is. Having an exclusive league of just a relatively few teams
would hinder this growth.
The more great players that are developed, the better. College
athletes that go into non-C1 schools are at a great disadvantage to be
able to become great ultimate players. With ultimate being a non-NCAA
sport, thus no-scholarships at all, It is a lot harder for most high
school grads to go to a certain school somewhere specifically for
ultimate. I think this proposal would greatly limit the talent pool
for producing the great ultimate players of the future.
i could go on for hours about this shit
Fish
put me in the camp that thought it was a joke.