"... we lose perspective with how young a sport we are."
john
sport we are."
This was in the Ultiverse news thread -- thanks, "Throw", for the
quote.
This is relevant to that other "culture" thread, and to the general
issue of going mainstream. Going mainstream is not the issue, until
the sport has grown in participation and evolved considerably in
tactics and rules (basketball took several decades to achieve that;
it's only been 3 decades or so for ulty). The UPA following a strategy
of growing youth, getting publicity for College, and developing an
arbitration system (Observers) seems very reasonable to me.
Even though I'd love to see a good pro league with world class
athletes NOW; it just ain't going to happen soon.
PS marketing-wise, we could adopt the Aussie word "Flatball";
"Ultimate" is too hippy-dippy for prime time (and I'm an old hippie --
well, I would be if I were 10 yr older -- so I can say that).
Jesse
level yet. I mean it'd be awesome to watch a few games on espn or
whatever but let's be serious, how many of us would still be playing
if we had to run against someone like randy moss. I'm pretty fast but
i'm not about to run a 4.25 second forty...
jim
You would still be playing at the same level you are now.....you don't
have to quit!
They would be playing at a higher level....a level we haven't seen yet
(and to be honest we probably won't see that level in our lifetime).
faddy
this is what i'm saying. quite selfish, in a way. yet, i get it.
say it ain't so...
ulticritic
thats a stupid and selfish reason not to want it to go
mainstream.....and oddly enough one that manzell argued against being
the case earlier today.
the sport was he probably before you were.....it'll be here after your
gone. dont put yoursel ahead of it.
ulticritic
> Tiina B: "..I think sometimes we lose the perspective with how young a
> sport we are."
well i happen to think we lose perspective of how old it is and how
many opportunities have been wasted over the years. It only took
soccer 16 years to figure it out and that was in the 1800's.
quit making excuses ultimate and grow up.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Even though I'd love to see a good pro league with world class
> athletes NOW; it just ain't going to happen soon.
wonder why? cause most of you are apathtic, you got lazy and aloof
attitudes and because the upa administration has made it a point to
keep a "new games" strong hold on it!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> PS marketing-wise, we could adopt the Aussie word "Flatball";
> "Ultimate" is too hippy-dippy for prime time (and I'm an old hippie --
> well, I would be if I were 10 yr older -- so I can say that).
it anit the name of a product, its how its packaged and delivered.
Baer
> Tiina B: "..I think sometimes we lose the perspective with how young a
> sport we are."
>
> issue of going mainstream. Going mainstream is not the issue, until
> the sport has grown in participation and evolved considerably in
> tactics and rules (basketball took several decades to achieve that;
> it's only been 3 decades or so for ulty). The UPA following a strategy
> of growing youth, getting publicity for College, and developing an
> arbitration system (Observers) seems very reasonable to me.
>
It's true that Ultimate is pretty young. Growth and evolution takes a
different pace for different sports or businesses or anything else.
Maybe those of us who are clamoring for more growth and more action
are being impatient, but I rather think that NOW is the time for some
major action, and it's not going to happen organically. Someone has to
make some bold moves.
I won't deny that the UPA has done some good things over the years,
but I would say that at the most, they've put us in a position to do
something with the sport. The UPA isn't going to take those big steps
on their own.
Yeah we're young, but it's time to grow up and get to work.
Head Beagle
> On Mar 19, 8:03 pm, john <hornedsph...@yahoo.com> wrote:.
>
> > Tiina B: "..I think sometimes we lose the perspective with how young a
> > sport we are."
>
> well i happen to think we lose perspective of how old it is and how
> many opportunities have been wasted over the years. It only took
> soccer 16 years to figure it out and that was in the 1800's.
>
> quit making excuses ultimate and grow up.
I can't find your post where you claim soccer figured it out in 16
years or something like that, but it is completely wrong. There is
evidence of a sport similar to soccer in the 2nd century BC, meaning
the 1800s was at least three thousands years after the sport got
started. People have been trying to kick things into a goal forever,
they just didn't codify the rules and such until the 1800s. So,
relative to soccer, ultimate is WAY ahead of the game.
And I think the origional statement was regarding ultimate going
mainstream ie: televised, pro leagues, etc. etc. Soccer didn't pull
that off in the US till the 90s, so add another couple decades onto
that number.
Frank Huguenard
Here's a photo of a Baseball game when it was the same age as Ultimate
Frisbay is now:
http://www.wasd.org/dgr/Library/baseball_002.jpg
And here's another one from Football, again about the same age as Ultimate
Frisbay is now:
http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/stadium/images/fbwis05.jpg
All this with no TV, Internet or cable to promote the sports.
Tiina, I think we lose perspective of how ignorant you are.
"john" <horned...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:99e582d3-01a8-422b...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Baer
>
> I can't find your post where you claim soccer figured it out in 16
> years or something like that, but it is completely wrong. There is
> evidence of a sport similar to soccer in the 2nd century BC, meaning
> the 1800s was at least three thousands years after the sport got
> started. People have been trying to kick things into a goal forever,
> they just didn't codify the rules and such until the 1800s. So,
> relative to soccer, ultimate is WAY ahead of the game.
>
> And I think the origional statement was regarding ultimate going
> mainstream ie: televised, pro leagues, etc. etc. Soccer didn't pull
> that off in the US till the 90s, so add another couple decades onto
> that number.
We can definitely learn a lot from how other sports developed. We've
been using soccer as an example, but we can also use football's modest
beginnings (the NFL is really what any sports business wants to be),
baseball, lacrosse, hockey, even professional wrestling (I know it's
not really a sport, but there is something to be learned about how it
became so successful as an entertainment product).
Some sports become wildly successful rather quickly, some take a
while, some only become popular in small regions, some become popular
and then dwindle because of poor marketing, poor management, and
disinterest (see the NHL).
The choices that have already been made with Ultimate over the past 40
years effect where we are now and set the path for where we are going,
and the things we do with Ultimate now are also extremely important
for the future of the sport and will determine everything else that
happens.
If we care about Ultimate and want a stake in its future (it is a
"player controlled sport" after all), we should all think about what
we want Ultimate to be some day, and if the current state of affairs
will achieve that vision.
throw
There is surely a sociologist among us who could slice and dice your
popular culture comparison. Or put it in perspective, etc.
I'm guessing she or he won't chime in since you have proven to have a
skull thicker than a redwood's trunk.
Have a good day.
Hank & Co.
www.thisisultimate.com
"Where ball sports are ailing."
aerohead
<fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> So fucking ridiculous.
>
> Here's a photo of a Baseball game when it was the same age as Ultimate
> Frisbay is now:
>
> http://www.wasd.org/dgr/Library/baseball_002.jpg
>
idiot.
how old do you think baseball is? They had Hurr's Dairy trucks like
that before the model T?
pgw
> it anit the name of a product, its how its packaged and delivered.
The name is probably the single most important aspect of "how it's
packaged and delivered." And "ultimate" is a dumb name.
ulticritic
> On Mar 19, 7:23 pm, ulticritic <t...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 19, 8:03 pm, john <hornedsph...@yahoo.com> wrote:.
>
> > > Tiina B: "..I think sometimes we lose the perspective with how young a
> > > sport we are."
>
> > well i happen to think we lose perspective of how old it is and how
> > many opportunities have been wasted over the years. It only took
> > soccer 16 years to figure it out and that was in the 1800's.
>
> > quit making excuses ultimate and grow up.
>
> I can't find your post where you claim soccer figured it out in 16
> years or something like that, but it is completely wrong.
search...WHY DELAY THE INEVITABLE
---------------------------------------------------------------------
There is
> evidence of a sport similar to soccer
"similar to soccer" and "soccer aint the same thing......there were
versions of ultimate similar to it prior to when the upa started in
1975 too.
-----------------------------------------------------------
in the 2nd century BC, meaning
> the 1800s was at least three thousands years after the sport got
> started. People have been trying to kick things into a goal forever,
> they just didn't codify the rules and such until the 1800s. So,
> relative to soccer, ultimate is WAY ahead of the game.
spin it how ever you want.....just another lame, cop out excuse to me
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> And I think the origional statement was regarding ultimate going
> mainstream ie: televised, pro leagues, etc. etc. Soccer didn't pull
> that off in the US till the 90s, so add another couple decades onto
> that number.
but they shelfed the self officiated "gentlemans game" idiocy in just
16 years after establishing the first organized soccer
association..........do your homework.
ulticritic
>
> Tiina, I think we lose perspective of how ignorant you are.
i think tiina was somewhat misinterpreted as to the contex in which
she said this.
Everyone should listen to the interview on ultiverse and decide what
she meant.
I think she might have been making a point that there is alot
happening now but the elite players arent stepping up and representing
the way they could/should be
but frank is right on point with everything else he says here
ulticritic
> On Mar 19, 6:23 pm, ulticritic <t...@ec.rr.com> wrote:.
>
> > it anit the name of a product, its how its packaged and delivered.
>
> The name is probably the single most important aspect of "how it's
> packaged and delivered." And "ultimate" is a dumb name.
I wont argue that its not dumb but ive seen plenty of businesses with
"dumb names"(which is highly subjective) succeed. I wouldnt have a
problem changing it. I guess when it was "ultimate frisbee" it was a
little more descriptive. Dischoops is very descriptive........you got
a better name for the sport of ultimate?
Thing is, once ya come up with it the sport still needs to be
completely overhauled. which to me is a lot more important than
changing the name. A pile of shit by any other name......
Frank Huguenard
know that this is practically a mantra in the community.
"Oh, the sport is still embryonic, it's still young..."
40 years is not young. Ultimate Frisbay has been around for 40 years now
and it should have matured by now. It hasn't.
"ulticritic" <t...@ec.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3f09fcb0-6444-4bec...@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Baer
>
> The name is probably the single most important aspect of "how it's
> packaged and delivered." And "ultimate" is a dumb name.
I've always thought that "Ultimate" maybe wasn't the best name, but if
we tried to change it now, while the sport is possibly on the verge of
some major changes, it would be counter-productive. It would be like
having two separate but similar sports, and the community would be
split further than it already is. That's just my opinion.
Other sports have weird, non-descriptiv names and still made it. Where
did "hockey," "lacrosse," "polo," and "soccer" come from? (I already
know where "soccer" and "rugby" came from. It's an interesting history
and shows that strange names won't impede a sport from developing).
Not to mention more obscure sports (to us Americans anyway) such as
cricket, curling, jai alai, etc.
hech...@gmail.com
1845, though different versions of the game had been played for 100
years before that.
Mike Gerics
> packaged and delivered." And "ultimate" is a dumb name.
---i've never understood why folks thought "ultimate" was a bad name.
it never struck me as such.....and i hate most goofy things.....
MrP...@gmail.com
> did "hockey," "lacrosse," "polo," and "soccer" come from?
Off the top of my head, lacrosse is a french term for the sticks used
in the original (and much more violent) Native American game. I think
it referred to the cross-shape at the top where the netting was
mounted.
Soccer is the American term. The rest of the world calls it
"football," or whatever football translates to in their language
(fussball, futbol, etc). I think hockey is too old (hundreds of
years) for anyone to remember where the name came from. I think that
"polo" is a term for "ball" in some language or other, but polo's even
older than hockey, so who knows?
The basic trend here is that the names aren't descriptive NOW, but
they WERE descriptive when the sport was actually popularized.
For the record, I've always thought that Ultimate was a hokey name for
a sport, but it obviously didn't stop me from playing. I run a pick-
up game at my office and everyone calls it "frisbee." Whatever works.
~p
Baer
> Soccer is the American term. The rest of the world calls it
> "football," or whatever football translates to in their language
> (fussball, futbol, etc).
My recollection is that the word "soccer" is derived from "soc" or
"association," which differs from "rugby," a spinoff of regular
European football (what we know as soccer). I can't remember the
country, but I think it's England, had a school called Rugby, where
some kids developed a new set of rules for their football game and
simply called it "Rugby Football." By comparison, the standard game
was called "Association Football," and eventually, a slang term for
"association" turned into "soccer."
I don't know why "soccer" didn't catch on as the official name
elsewhere but here, but I believe those are the general origins of the
terms.
tiina...@hotmail.com
> On Mar 20, 11:38 am, "Frank Huguenard" <fhuguenard(no_spam.
>
>
>
> > Tiina, I think we lose perspective of how ignorant you are.
>
> i think tiina was somewhat misinterpreted as to the contex in which
> she said this.
>
> Everyone should listen to the interview on ultiverse and decide what
> she meant.
>
> I think she might have been making a point that there is alot
> happening now but the elite players arent stepping up and representing
> the way they could/should be
Thank you. That is exactly the point I was making. And although I
hesitate
to even get involved in any discussion on this board, I find it
somewhat disconcerting
to have a quote taken so out of context.
So . . . to further explain my statements, I was being critical of
those elite players
who expect somehow that a semi-pro league will magically spring up
around them.
As Toad well knows, building something that expansive takes more money
and time
than most of us have. I was also making the point that ultimate
players need to support
those who are doing their best to grow the sport in any way they can,
such as Adriana, Rob, Skippy and - gasp! - even the UPA.
And, for the record:
1) I don't like New Games.
2) Refs would be just fine with me.
3) I coach because I like to compete.
4) I do what I can to grow the sport.
Tiina
Baer
wrote:
>
> So . . . to further explain my statements, I was being critical of
> those elite players
> who expect somehow that a semi-pro league will magically spring up
> around them.
> As Toad well knows, building something that expansive takes more money
> and time
> than most of us have. I was also making the point that ultimate
> players need to support
> those who are doing their best to grow the sport in any way they can,
> such as Adriana, Rob, Skippy and - gasp! - even the UPA.
>
> And, for the record:
> 1) I don't like New Games.
> 2) Refs would be just fine with me.
> 3) I coach because I like to compete.
> 4) I do what I can to grow the sport.
>
> Tiina
Bravo!
jerm...@gmail.com
<fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Tiina, I think we lose perspective of how ignorant you are.
Wow. Where to start? Frank, Tiina has done more to contribute to the
sport than all but a handful of people. She probably does more to
contribute to the sport in one week than you have done, cumulatively,
in your entire career. You are not qualified to hold her jock, so to
speak, much less comment on the validity of her points.
You, Frank, have made a mantra of ignorance and bluster. You have
launched ad hominems at people seemingly for the sole offense of
enjoying their chosen sport. You've tried to promote a universally
rejected vision of our sport by insulting people solely for not
agreeing with your opinions. You have made RSD your personal outhouse.
You have externalized your insecurities and self-hatred, and fouled a
vibrant public forum with your vitriol and delusions. You have based
spires of questionable logic on the most questionable of assumptions.
All of that is regrettable, Frank. But what is truly tragic, is that
you have wasted your own considerable energy for no lasting positive
effect whatsoever. Blinded by willful ignorance, Frank, you have
merely plowed the ocean.
Jim Mallon
No kidding. Look at the way the people are dressed. Look at the
aluminum lawn chair about 20' to the left of the dairy truck. Come on,
aluminum lawn chair?!?. I say early 1970s at the earliest.
About 15' to the right of the tree in front of the truck is a dude in
short pants and Birkenstocks, fool.
Look at the kids sitting on the freaking PICNIC TABLE!
When that photo was taken even Ultimate already existed.
ulticritic
wrote:
so we can all blame that idiot throw for misrepresent ing tiina from
the get go
pretty work throw...........you dumbass
ulticritic
woooow, back it up there jermle......it was that dip shit hank or
throw or whoever that dumbfuck is that has that huge complex against
"ball sports" that initiated and perpetuated the quote from tiina to
begin with. so lets put the blame where it belongs. Dont use frank
as the scape goat here. In itself that quote can easily be
interpreted as just another excuse as to ultimates stagnation and
reasons not to put more effort into initiating additional disc related
programing......which frank is obviously doing in his own way. If
anything i would think that tiina might lump frank in as one of the
few doers that is trying to contribute somthing as apposed to just
riding the coat tails......as sooooo many out there do. Not trying to
speak for you there tiina its just that so many people jump at the
first chance they can to pile on frank no matter what the
reason.....and me too for that matter. Just hatin on the haters.
jerm...@gmail.com
didn't fly as an excuse in 3rd grade, and it still doesn't. Besides,
Frank has more than earned himself an occasional written beat down.
I'm not a hater; I read far more posts from Frank than I care to admit
without responding. He can peddle his bullshit, and so long as he
doesn't insult people, he's merely annoying. But calling Tiina
'ignorant', after her years of service to the growth of the sport, and
after years of his own abrasive and disingenuous posturing, demands a
response.
Besides..."first chance to pile on Frank"?! Are you kidding? The dude
has posted 10 times a day for years. Just about every one of those
deluded rants was a perfectly good chance to 'pile on'. It takes quite
a bit of his bile accumulating to exceed the 'pile on' threshold. This
last post just put it over the top.
Jeremy
john
wrote:
And cheers to you for that. I meant no disrespect or contradiction --
I just found the statement evocative of the true situation, and used
it as an entry to making my point that the UPA is not the enemy --
they are growing the sport in a tortoise manner. The hares can sleep
and occasionally wake up and scream on this forum. The UPA, and folks
like Tiina, just keep plodding on. Guess who's making the most happen?
ulticritic
>
> And cheers to you for that. I meant no disrespect or contradiction --
> I just found the statement evocative of the true situation, and used
> it as an entry to making my point that the UPA is not the enemy --
> they are growing the sport in a tortoise manner. The hares can sleep
> and occasionally wake up and scream on this forum. The UPA, and folks
>
> - Show quoted text -
i'll take a stab.....not you
john
Hey, UC, I gather you did put your money &/or effort where your mouth
is (i.e. MLU); OK, it didn't fly, that's no indictment of the effort.
I just happen to think the "tortoise" approach is going to clear a
path for other hares who come along later (or the same hares running
again) -- maybe in 5 years, maybe 10 or 20.
ulticritic
shit......the only ones thats been clearin a path for anyone (with
respect to rule enforcement ) is ME. Where the fuck you think most of
those college x-rules came from. I will give props to a one byron
hicks too though. If we had more people like him that werent affraid
to push the envelope this sport would be a lot further down the road.
And get fuckin real.....that tortise and hare thing is a fable.....you
know what a fable is......its bull shit......and its bad for ya. a
turtle clearin a path for a rabbit, please......you are one ate up
muther fucker.
john
Hey, Byron's OK with me. What in particular you think he did? I know
he does a lot in TX section & S region; what in particular about
rules, enforcement, etc, are you talking about -- I'm not being
skeptical, I just don't know and want you to tell me what you're
talking about.
ulticritic
>
> - Show quoted text -
he single handedly revolutionized and streamlined the force out rule
call proceedure for observers in "a blink of an eye".......which was
not to the liking of the PUSSY observer that was too much of a PUSSY
to eject the infamous chest spiker from JB.....who was that PUSSY
anyways?(not the spiker, the observer)
aside from that, with your PUSSY tortise and hare anology you did not
only prove to take tiinas quote out of contex but you have also
ignorantly shown that you interpreted what she said to be the exact
opposite of what she meant.......which was to quit being so fuckin
lame and support those that are makeing efforts to do shit and change
shit......not to sit around with your thumb up your ass for the next
5, 10 or 20 years for shit to just organicly happen(tortise
style).......you PUSSY.
john
I think what I was trying to say, is, growth (due to tortoise type
base building by the UPA and Tiina's camps, and Gerics' and so on), is
going to improve the prospects of hare-y entrepreneurial efforts.
Also, I'm all for change in rules and enforcement. I mean, observers
IS change (for club anyway) -- and I'd empower them more than they
are, I just don't think going all the way to refs is the best option;
and apparently, neither does the majority of the folks who
participate; otherwise it would have already happened.
And, insulting people who are roughly on your side, just not totally,
is a great way to go the way of the GOP -- in the wilderness for a
while, at least. But, you're already there; have been for years.
ulticritic
>
> I think what I was trying to say, is, growth (due to tortoise type
> base building by the UPA and Tiina's camps, and Gerics' and so on), is
> going to improve the prospects of hare-y entrepreneurial efforts.
how? and how are tiinas or mikes efforts tortisey? mike? tinna? do you
guys accept this contention?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Also, I'm all for change in rules and enforcement. I mean, observers
> IS change (for club anyway) -- and I'd empower them more than they
> are,
like how???
------------------------------------------
I just don't think going all the way to refs is the best option;
> and apparently, neither does the majority of the folks who
> participate; otherwise it would have already happened.
do yo really think that the upa polls acuratly reflect the desires of
the entire membership. Even so, their polls state that 48% of those
polled are up for experimenting with refs (and ya got to figure the
silent majority would be up for it more than against it).. so where
is the reffing experimenting at? or plans for it? and not watered down
reffing either....REFFING! Is half not enough for them to get off
their ass and experiment?
tHE UPA ADMIN HAS THEIR OWN PERSONAL AGENDAS THAT IN THE END WILL
SUPERCEED ANY DESIRES OF THE MEMBERSHIP....BELIEVE THAT!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> And, insulting people who are roughly on your side, just not totally,
> is a great way to go the way of the GOP -- in the wilderness for a
> while, at least. But, you're already there; have been for years
which says more about "people" than it does me.....thanks for
pointing that out.