Why the flying **** isn't a beach thumber / peach a major major throw?
SquishToGo
peach (explained in Wikipedia) isn't a major meat-n-potatoes throw.
It's an almost instant throw when caught overhand, relaying the disc
before a defender gets to you, *and* getting it to your target more
quickly before *he's* guarded. Used in combination whenever there are
multiple offensive players who aren't point-blank guarded, you elimate
stall counts completely. I don't see the logic of catching then
standing in place like a tree for 5 seconds when you could have simply
thrown the disc instead. It is long, hard, accurate, like any good
throw, and instantaneous. I feel like the entire Ultimate culture is
retarded. Please defend your sanity and explain! Thanks!
h.infe...@gmail.com
sra...@gmail.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Flying_disc_techniques&diff=230332104&oldid=228029001
I've read it on the internet, it must be true!
Nothing like editing the wiki page so that it supports your point.
Alan Hoyle
I can think of a few reasons, mostly because it doesn't offer any
major advantages over a regular forehand and has a few significant
disadvantages. Most notably, the "thumb-under" backhand equivalent is
markedly inferior to both the beach thumber and regular backhand,
while the backhand/forehand combination doesn't have nearly as great a
disparity. Also, the release of the "beach thumber" doesn't allow as
much extension as a forehand, and makes it harder to throw around a mark.
In practice, the "major advantage" that it can be thrown without
switching grips doesn't amount to much. While the initial switch from
thumb-under to thumb-on-top might take a second, doing so allows the
thrower more options if initial thumber look is blocked. Switching
grips from forehand to backhand takes a fraction of a second and can
be done easily during a pivot or as a part of a fake. Reliably
switching grips from thumber to backhand/forehand, either takes
longer, or requires both hands. And since the thumber-backhand is so
much less powerful, if a marker notices the beach thumber grip, he/she
will make that throw much harder.
-alan
--
Alan Hoyle - al...@unc.edu - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
T1000
Some other/similar reasons:
1) The thumber grip can only be used for the thumber, the beach-
thumber, the dragon-wing (chicken-wing), and the duck. Most of these
are awkward throws and difficult in a sequence of fakes. Players
prefer to default to forehand/backhand grip, which can be changed
easily, and serves as a platform for multiple popular and useful
throws. Also . . .
2) The beach thumber flies very similarly to the hammer and the
scoober, which can be thrown from the forehand grip.
3) The beach thumber has a quickness advantage over similar throws if
the disc is caught one-handed, thumb-down. For this reason, we often
see this throw used in "dish" or "pop" passes back to the thrower.
But players try to catch the disc two-handed as often as possible for
safety's sake, and they can easily default to the forehand/backhand
grip from a two-handed catch before they have even set their pivot.
4) Moreover, in those circumstances where a one-handed, thumb-down
catch is truly necessary, it is more difficult to make an immediate
continuation throw. That is because such circumstances are likely
jump-offs for a high disc, layout bids, or just plain difficult,
urgent catches. The player will more often need an instant to regain
and balance himself before looking for the continuation under such
circumstances. The exception to this observation is the "greatest"
attempt, which may call for a thumber out of necessity.
5) The beach thumber is an upside-down throw. Upside-down throws tend
to drop faster (for obvious reasons), and they usually corkscrew in
flight, making them less forgiving throws over long distances. A
rightside-up throw can be made catchable at chest height, at a low
speed, over a long stretch of ground; an upside-down throw must be
thrown more precisely to drop at a certain point, or it must be flung
at higher speed (again, because its lift vector points downward).
Notably, the beach-thumber's popularity in guts is testament to its
reputation as a difficult throw to catch. It may be a "hard, accurate
throw," as cited in Wikipedia, but mostly in that it can be thrown
upside-down very low to the ground, with the strength of a backhand
wind-up. This is why guts players would favour it.
SquishToGo
>
> Nothing like editing the wiki page so that it supports your point.
Could we not be hostile please? I did not realize anyone would
disagree, for all I knew it was someone's opinion written two years
ago that no one disagreed with enough to change. If it's 96% of
players that feel strongly that way, fine, but if it's like 77%, it
deserves a "some players think it's useful..." I know one person who
says he finds it useful in boston ultimate alliance games, and as I
learn it more and show people its uses, more of them say "oh yeah I
see, maybe it's useful." This tells me the general its disuse might
be from a bias, that people don't really try it.
Also, you can't deny the basic laws of physics. If you're going to
put it down that "it takes time to switch to other grips" then also
have to praise it for "it can be thrown near instantly from a standard
catch," and "it is a very important throw when leaping out of
bounds." What other instant catch-and-throw move can save the disc
when right side up before your feet hit the ground? Maybe catch it
under and then forehand it, but I personally could not do that as
fast.
If you can prove your point in wikipedia by cutting out dead obvious
physcal information, then why can't I prove mine by appending it with
this info. Maybe in *general* people don't like it, but if you don't
like a rubber ball you can't say it doesn't bounce!
SquishToGo
No offense but I think you've all been sniffing dirty discs or
something =)
You all list disadvantages but can't tell me why they're SO horrible
as to completely overshadow an utterly major advantage of an *instant*
throw. You might as well say disc teleportation is useless cuz it
takes too many magic points. This is the difference between getting
the disc away to a player immediately before you *or* they are
guarded, vs having to stand there for 5 seconds while someone is now
*blocking* your favorite throws, while the defenders have time to
guard all your buddies. I haven't tried it long a lot so I can't
speak to that (though the one time I asked a good thrower to poll it,
it looked perfectly fine to me), but at the very least, it's an
excellent, accurate, quick short throw. It's as quick and stable and
accurate as a forehand or backhand. Even if you think otherwise, at
the very very least, if it's flawed in any way, it can't be SO
horrible as to overshadow instantly hucking it to a nearby open
player. As if he's gonna drop a direct throw right too him cuz he
thought it was only 75% accurate...?
>> Most notably, the "thumb-under" backhand equivalent is markedly inferior to both the beach thumber and regular backhand, while the backhand/forehand combination doesn't have nearly as great a disparity.
Can you rephrase this sentence I'm not quite sure what you mean?
>> and makes it harder to throw around a mark.
Clearly. I never said it should be thrown when guarded. I said when
you *aren't* guarded, which is quite a lot of the time! It's so you
don't have *time* to get guarded!
>> might take a second
a second vs a half-second in a game where an inch can mean everything
is nontrivial!
>> during a pivot or as a part of a fake
There is no need to pivot *or* fake if you are *not guarded*.
>> switching grips from thumber to
There is zero need to ever switch. Catch-and-throw is an immediate
and permanent decision. You're not going to change your mind in the
1/4 second you have the disc to stop yourself in the middle of a throw
and do something else!
>> if a marker
no marker. go flush your sharpies before responding. =)
>> so much less powerful
wiki says "very hard, very accurate throw" (?). also, before my edit
wiki said "unpredictable flight path" and "very accurate". you fellas
need to agree with yourselves a little here.
Most of your criticisms revolve around being guarded, go throw those
out. That's half the time. A throw that's good half the time is
excellent. As to accuracy and power, i'd like to get a stopwatch and
radar on us both cuz my thumber (throwing it for three months) is just
as powerful and accurate as my 12-year practiced backhand. But *even*
if we give you that, you're only remaining criticism, you can't
possibly tell me it is so bad as to overwhelm the ability to instantly
dart the disc to a nearby player instead of a) taking 5 seconds, b)
being blocked, c) getting everyone else guarded while you're being
stalled.
SquishToGo
As said above, it shouldn't be used in any situation where you want to
change throws.
>> flies very similarly to the hammer
Are we talking about the same throw? It flies just like a backhand or
forehand.
>> players try to catch the disc two-handed as often as possible for safety's sake,
If you're gonna put down a one hand catch as unusable because it's not
absolutely safe, then you shouldn't ever bother to catch the disc one
hand! This is a technique that requries a one hand catch, just as
catching the disc when you can't use two hands (half the time) also
requires the use of the one hand catch. You can't throw all instant
throws out the window because they require a little skill. Every
third or fourth time you get the disc you have the chance to
immediately throw it instead of just standing there like a tree for 5
seconds with a small wall in front of you.
>> it is more difficult to make an immediate continuation throw.
What? This is a pretty easy, simple flick of the wrist. Even if
you're right, why shouldn't a really good maneuver be a little
trickier to pull off?
>> The beach thumber is an upside-down throw. Upside-down throws tend to drop faster (for obvious reasons), and they usually corkscrew in flight, making them less forgiving throws over long distances.
You mean your *hand* is upside down, right? Not the disc? If you
mean the disc, we're all talking about different throws. Wiki lists
peach as right side up throw. If we're talking about the same throw,
and you're correct about the dropping (maybe you are, I haven't
noticed that myself), then you're making an extremely minor comment.
If I can throw the disc from here to there--instantly--and it's
perfectly catchable, who cares if you have to catch it two inches
lower?
Long distance I haven't tried yet. But, if you're right, then my
claim is it's an excellent--if not perfect--instant short-term throw
to be used when the thrower isn't guarded, and I have yet to hear a
reason otherwise, except for minor nitpicks that it's not utterly
perfect. =P =)
Alex Peters
other normal throw off (i.e. a flick). You keep mentioning this
"taking 5 seconds" to switch grips and get a flick off. We're talking
half a second here to switch grips, and the key part is, this half
second generally occurs at a time just after you catch the disc where
you wouldn't be ready to throw a thumber anyway; while you're still
landing after a catch, or in the first stride while running at full
speed or pivoting to face upfield because you just caught an under.
No matter how I catch the disc, by the time I've gotten my balance and
am facing upfield, I have already switched to the grip I want to use,
it has not cost me any time. The number of situations where you might
need to throw an "instant" thumber where you can't just throw a flick
are quite few.
SquishToGo
No, I mean the stall count while you're guarded, the 1-10, where you
wouldn't have time to be guarded even if the marker is just an *arm's
length* away when you catch, sprinting toward you. That's how
important that tiny quarter second is worth. If you want to see its
worth, try jumping and catching a disc, two hands, switching grips,
and releasing, before your feet hit the ground. Even if the defender
is *right on* you, you can *still* totally bypass being guarded when
you ht the ground by getting it off first.
> need to throw an "instant" thumber where you can't just throw a flick are quite few.
Measure the--literally--milimeter between the hand and disc that can
mean catch or fail. That's how important the difference is if the
defender is an arm's length away.
Alex Peters
over simply catching the disc underhand and throwing a backhand, or
catching the disc overhand and throwing what the wiki page calls... an
overhand (see the sockeye greatest in the club finals). The major
disadvantage for throwing a forehand thumber greatest is similar to
the flick greatest (though without the difficulty of grabbing the disc
in a flick grip), in nearly all attempts you will have to throw cross-
body. Given the palm up, elbow down nature of the forehand thumber,
throwing cross body back onto the field is fundamentally unsound as
you get much more free arm motion from the palm-down, elbow out
overhand grip. Throwing either a backhand or overhand greatest you
will be able to put much more touch on the disc, and the overhand can
be thrown to either side. It seems to me that most forehand thumber
greatest attempts would simply end with the disc either blading into
the ground, or zooming straight probably to no one given the average
situation of a greatest.
Alex Peters
> If you want to see its
> worth, try jumping and catching a disc, two hands, switching grips,
> and releasing, before your feet hit the ground.
Right, because that's a useful thing to do while playing a high level
club ultimate game. Ok, so the reason I am jump throwing this short
pass is so I can get it off to my open receiver, who is then going to
what? Stop and throw a flick? Why would he do that, he's got his own
instant throw in the bag, so he then jump throws to the next guy, and
we just go straight down the field throwing jump thumbers, it's
unstoppable!
SquishToGo
sticks" because you disagree with my opinion. Impolite sarcasm kicks
ass instead of "FYI everyone agrees with that", and apparently
apologizing is worth crap.
Al3x
It's the perfect offense... don't be surprised to see this shit on
every COTD this season. Frank and Toad be damned, welcome to sport
progression people!
SquishToGo
> over simply catching the disc underhand and throwing a backhand
Because anywhere above your chest, it's much harder to catch in
backhand-ready position. Stick your hand in front of you like you're
making a "stop" motion. It takes slight effort to bend your wrist
180, and more effort to twist your entire arm to reach up for the disc
backhand-ready, impossible if it's high. Perhaps backhand is better
anywhere below the chest, but the peach is better anywhere above it.
I'm not very familiar with this overhand, I'll try it, but from what I
can tell, it says to achieve distance one must rotate your entire
body. The peach is like a forehand in that it can be flicked far with
little effort.
>> put much more touch on the disc
As in touch you mean more of your hand on the disc? Some people throw
a forehand with two fingers right on the rim, and can play and poll it
fine like that, what does touch matter? And if it does, why is the
overhand more touch? The catch and throw of the peach involves the
fingers all mostly on top of the disc.
> It seems to me that most forehand thumber
> greatest attempts would simply end with the disc either blading into
> the ground, or zooming straight probably to no one given the average
> situation of a greatest.
All I can say is that from doing it, I disagree. You say "it seems"
like you're guessing. If you try it, practice it, I think you'll find
it works.
SquishToGo
Nor can you do the same throwing backhands. You've suceeded in
concluding that you can't part the red sea with this technique. Now,
could you explain why the general technique or idea is flawed enough
to be thrown out the window? How can you argue with the physics of
being able to use an instant throw (even if it's the two you claim are
best) to someone else, and have that person use another instant
throw? When you get the disc, you know where everyone is, why would
you wait to be guarded, a *severe* disadvantage in throwing, when you
can throw right away to anyone who might be open? Done well, you
*don't even have to stop running*. If the two instant throws you like
work--even disregarding the peach--why not use them every time you get
the disc when not guarded? Or at least a whole lot of the time?
SquishToGo
> every COTD this season. Frank and Toad be damned, welcome to sport
> progression people!
How the hell do we ever make progress without questioning if we might
be doing things wrong or could do something better? I suppose the
young sport of Ultimate is utterly perfected and flawless. I've yet
to hear why instantly throwing the disc to someone before you're
guarded and before they're guarded--with whatever instant throws you
want--is fundamentally flawed. In a really good point, the defense
doesn't touch the disc, so why not the super occasional all jump-
thumbers? Eh? eh? Have you practiced and tried a jump-thumber / jump-
overhand / jump-backhand relay? Insanely difficult, obviously, but
why's it logically flawed if you can pull it off?
I find it difficult to throw a peach in the game because it takes much
more skill and focus than a standard throw. You have to know exactly
where everyone is because you have no time to stop lazily for ten
seconds and look around, and that's how beneficial it is if you
perfect it. Stopping every point is like hours of foreplay.
Al3x
> > It's the perfect offense... don't be surprised to see this shit on
> > every COTD this season. Frank and Toad be damned, welcome to sport
> > progression people!
>
> How the hell do we ever make progress without questioning if we might
> be doing things wrong or could do something better? I suppose the
> young sport of Ultimate is utterly perfected and flawless. I've yet
> to hear why instantly throwing the disc to someone before you're
> guarded and before they're guarded--with whatever instant throws you
> want--is fundamentally flawed. In a really good point, the defense
> doesn't touch the disc, so why not the super occasional all jump-
> thumbers? Eh? eh? Have you practiced and tried a jump-thumber / jump-
> overhand / jump-backhand relay? Insanely difficult, obviously, but
> why's it logically flawed if you can pull it off?
Exactly my point! But why stop at Ultimate? There is progress to be
made all around the world of sports with these ideas! For instance,
when Randy Moss catches a buttonhook, why take the 1 1/2 seconds to
"turn" upfield, when he could simply jump-catch it, and lateral the
ball immediately to the WIDE open Wes Welker (uncovered of course,
because why even have a discussion about this when you're COVERED?!?
Because that's only like, 10 % of the time anyway), who then bobbles
and kicks the ball to himself all the way upfield for a "touchdown!"
Just because this shit isn't "conventional" doesn't mean that it isn't
COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNDEFENDABLE. Open your eyes folks...something
about kool-aid.
SquishToGo
Let's keep going! Why stop at sports? Asking whether a single
technique in frisbee might be used more often not only means I've
discovered invincibility for not only frisbee but all sports, but
surely can be extended for people to make millions and date sixteen
models. If all you can do to answer me is to inflate my suggestion
into absurdity and then complain that it's absurd, instead of
answering me why the *general idea* of throwing the disc before the
defender gets to you is so absurd as to not be applied at the least a
little bit more, well...
You guys have shared some opinions, thanks, I really appreciate the
feedback, seriously, 'cuz I really wanted to know why people think the
peach shouldn't be used. *But*, much of it has been simple avoidance
and sarcasm and exaggeration and just bland misinformation. I asked
very clearly initially why it shouldn't be used when *not* guarded and
I get paragraphs of why it's no good while guarded. I say used as
"instant throw" and you say "well, you can't switch grips" which has
nothing to do with an instant throw, which by definition is when you
pick one grip and immediately throw it.
You like wiki which says hard and accurate, and then you say
inaccurate and off balance. Alex says why isn't an instant backhand-
release always better, a really good question, but I think my response
(please argue with me that you can catch a backhand-grip over your
head) answers that to the point where it's now shown that while
knowledgable, you don't all know everything about this throw, and just
maybe there's more to learn. You say stuff like "it seems to me" and
partial guesses without solid practice of the technique. Lastly, it's
almost delusional to claim that a tiny of a fraction of a second
cannot be extremely important in sports. That's the difference of the
defender being just out of range to block you, sprinting towards you,
and being right on you.
I've heard two solid points: the peach is only good above your chest,
which I hadn't thought about, and the overhand may have some
advantages over it, but I seriously doubt it surpases it in every
case. I never said "best throw in existence, let's switch to jump-
thumber frisbee," and if you think any other points have been made
other than these two please re-state them because I'm lost in a lake
of sarcasm and nonrelevance.
I don't mean to be insulting, I really appreciate talking about this,
but I *still* would desperately like to hear again why the flying ****
this throw shouldn't be used in the cases we haven't eliminated.
SquishToGo
oh, and also, without calling it stupid, why one should stop and wait
to be guarded and for everyone else to be guarded when you could have
just thrown if there was one good open person, utilizing instant
backhand, forehand, peach, overhand, etc.
adam wiseman
its advice. when a few people responded you told them that they were
wrong and that this really is a viable throw. its obvious you are
going to throw it anyways, so just go on about day. this is not a
throw that i would consider to viable/valuable, but you like it. End.
sra...@gmail.com
your question from Wikipedia while editing.
Per the old article:
---
It is unpopular in Ultimate due to several disadvantages when compared
to the standard forehand. It is relatively difficult to impart
different curves or release angles to, it is harder to release
extended away from the thrower's body, and it makes for slow grip
transitions to a backhand or hammer.
--
In high level ultimate it's rare that you get more than a second
unmarked, so the ability to reach further out, release at angles/
curves to go around defenders and quickly throw on either side of your
body is much, much, much more important than the quarter second you
lose while changing grips.
I'd also add that it's much harder to control velocity of the disc,
making your throws harder to catch. Finally, you (should) only catch
the disc with this grip a small minority of the time... when you have
to layout or get something far enough over your head that you can't
use two hands. Most of the time you catch like that you're worrying
more about your landing than your next throw during the time where you
would gain any advantage from it.
Peterson
Sounds like you need to get involved with the undefendable motion
offense that some new team in the Bay area will be running this fall.
I read a post about this unique offense once or twice here on RSD. A
quick search of of the group should get you started.
Peterson
Head Beagle
is already in a forehand grip before I hit the ground. Similarly, b/c
I practiced my grip switching a lot, if someone is chasing me at a
full sprint and I am a full sprint and I catch the disc, I can switch
to a forehand grip and release the throw before they can mark me. Same
advantage you list for the peach, but without the peach. And, unlike
the peach, with a forehand you can throw a lot of different throws
accurately (I/O, O/I, high release, low release, etc.) Rather than try
to learn a new throw and work it into a very small number of very
specific situations, just work on your catch to throw transfers and
you won't need it. Furthermore, with the peach you BETTER get it off
instantly, or else the mark is on and you are stuck with an awkward
grip switch while the count reaches five. If you switch to a flick
grip and the mark cuts the initial throw, you just step out a bit and
make the throw anyway. Not so much an option with the peach. BTW, I
hadn't heard a good name for it. That is at least a benefit of this
thread. I don't really know WHY it is a peach, but it works for me.
Also, i have had one person try to throw this throw on me in a game
once and I hand blocked it. Generally a bad indication.
Adam Tarr
> > so he then jump throws to the next guy, and we just go straight down the field throwing jump thumbers, it's unstoppable!
>
> Nor can you do the same throwing backhands. You've suceeded in
> concluding that you can't part the red sea with this technique. Now,
> could you explain why the general technique or idea is flawed enough
> to be thrown out the window?
It's been explained a few times already. Before reading this you
could just read the responses of Alan Hoyle's (8/7 8:04 am) or Alex
Peters (8/8 1:00 AM) or Head Beagle (8/8 8:39 AM).
To break the issue down into three basic points:
1) You vastly overestimate the temporal advantage this throw has over
a standard flick or backhand. Even in the cases where you do catch
the disc thumb under, it's extremely easy to transition to another
grip *before you achieve balance and look upfield*. In other words,
you lose nothing by transitioning grips, because you shouldn't be
throwing before you achieve balance. This is true even when you are
throwing on the move, in your first three points of contact.
The only exception would be for a greatest attempt, where obviously
you cannot achieve balance before you throw anyway. I agree that this
throw can be useful for greatest attempts. Even then it's not the
fastest release, though, because you must catch, THEN cock your wrist
and release. This extra step may be why a lot of players just use the
overhand release when they catch the disc thumb-under on a greatest.
Also, and this may be obvious, any pancake catch or thumb-up catch
(e.g. a typical below the waist catch) transitions much more easily to
a backhand or forehand grip than a thumber grip.
2) Even quick throws that are thrown immediately after the catch can
be made higher-percentage if you can control the speed and shape of
the throw. It is vastly easier to throw IO or OI curves with a
forehand or backhand than with a thumber forehand. The thumber
forehand grip, by its very nature, is a bit unstable (less contact
area with the disc) and pretty much only lends itself to one release
height and a flat release only.
3) Although the crux of your argument is quick throws without a mark,
it bears mentioning again that relying on this throw is a big
liability against a mark. It is very easy to point block this throw,
as it is hard to extend away from the body or release under a marker's
hands.
Bottom line - unless you find yourself throwing a LOT of greatests,
your time is better spent working on quick transitions to a forehand
or backhand grip.
> How can you argue with the physics of
> being able to use an instant throw (even if it's the two you claim are
> best) to someone else, and have that person use another instant
> throw?
I'm not sure why you are using "physics" here; I think you mean
"biomechanics" or "kinesthetics".
The point is that it is an inferior throw in terms of control or
extension, and any advantage it may have in quick releases is
negligible in the vast majority of cases.
> When you get the disc, you know where everyone is, why would
> you wait to be guarded, a *severe* disadvantage in throwing, when you
> can throw right away to anyone who might be open? Done well, you
> *don't even have to stop running*.
Absolutely true. People take advantage of this all the time,
particularly at higher levels of play. But they usually throw
backhands, and, sometimes, forehands too.
> If the two instant throws you like
> work--even disregarding the peach--why not use them every time you get
> the disc when not guarded? Or at least a whole lot of the time?
Again, people do. As you seem to realize, though, this is not an
argument for using a thumber grip.
T1000
Oh, now I see which throw you're talking about. I was talking about
an upside-down thumber thrown on the backhand side. You're talking
about a righside-up thumber thrown on the forehand side. My bad.
That looks like an awkward grip to get off quickly. I've never seen
anyone catch-and-release that particular throw instantly. But, hey,
if you can do it reliably, you don't need any blessing from me.
SquishToGo
> different curves or release angles to, it is harder to release
> extended away from the thrower's body, and it makes for slow grip
> transitions to a backhand or hammer.
The first was not in the article and is the only point I see, the
second two basically only apply to being marked, why do you all keep
reverting to this. Instant throw = you *choose* the throw and release
immediately. And what does the proximity matter? If I can poll a
disc five fields accurately from a doggie paddle position or with my
mouth, who cares.
You say it has disadvantages, but won't list why they're *crippling*.
Last time I checked the hammer wasn't a super throw for polling or
releasing under your leg. Given your first point, you're just saying
"not perfect," not "unusable" as I've described the throw. Why can't
wiki say "good instant throw, but, hard to release angles from"
> In high level ultimate it's rare that you get more than a second
> unmarked
A second is all you need!! This can be done in a *quarter* second,
the difference between getting the disc away before you have a shrub
in front of you to throw around.
SquishToGo
> making your throws harder to catch.
I'm going to make a youtube video for you people demonstrating peach
physics. While practicing, when I use this, it is caught excellently
every time. Why would the speed / direction be harder to control??
You control the flick the speed, and the angle.
> Finally, you (should) only catch the disc with this grip a small minority
What do you mean? I can't think of any other way you could possibly
catch a right side up disc one handed. It's used every single time
you need to use it and can't use two hands. Even if you were right,
then this would *be* another case to use it!
> you're worrying more about your landing than your next throw
"No way I'm trying an expert technique up here, someone just get me
down, I'm afraid of heights!" =)
SquishToGo
> is already in a forehand grip before I hit the ground.
I'm getting carpo typing everything four times... *before you hit the
ground*, can you switch to forehand AND release the frisbee?
> I practiced my grip switching a lot, if someone is chasing me at a
> full sprint and I am a full sprint and I catch the disc, I can switch
> to a forehand grip and release the throw before they can mark me.
If you can throw a hammer faster than anyone, then there's someone who
can throw a backhand faster than you. All my rules of *much faster*
throw apply even if you and I are in hyperspace.
> And, unlike thepeach, with a forehand you can throw a lot of different throws
you cannot *catch* a forehand position, *or* a backhand, when the disc
is anywhere above your chest, this is half the time, not a rare
situation.
> Furthermore, with thepeachyou BETTER get it off instantly, or else the mark is on
If I pull a shotgun trigger at a defender, I better get that bullet
out before he gets to the gun. It is an *instantaneous* decision, a
single whip of the hand. You *are* going to get it off instantly, no
chance of failure, as long as you know the throw
> If you switch to a flick grip and the mark cuts the initial throw, you just step out a bit and
> make the throw anyway.
So why not stick a shrub in front of you every time you throw, cuz
it's just as easy to throw and look around?
> thread. I don't really know WHY it is apeach, but it works for me.
I'm glad it has a one syllable name. "Thumber" is incorrect and
"Beach thumber" is three syllables.
SquishToGo
> throwing before you achieve balance. This is true even when you are
ok, you claim this, fine, but why. Have you practiced this move?
It's insanely difficult. There is plenty benefit in balance and more
options from the ground, but there's also a huge benefit in throwing
insantly, before you're marked, and before the defense has time to
guard every one of your buddies.
> Also, and this may be obvious, any pancake catch or thumb-up catch
> (e.g. a typical below the waist catch) transitions much more easily to
> a backhand or forehand grip than a thumber grip.
Peaches and oranges. Why would i want to transition to a backhand or
forehand if I have zero intention of switching grips during this move?
> 2) Even quick throws that are thrown immediately after the catch can
> be made higher-percentage if you can control the speed and shape of
> the throw. It is vastly easier to throw IO or OI curves with a
> forehand or backhand than with a thumber forehand. The thumber
> forehand grip, by its very nature, is a bit unstable (less contact
> area with the disc) and pretty much only lends itself to one release
> height and a flat release only.
The forehand where the two fingers are just under the disc allows
minimal disc contact and people use it. I assure you the peach is
completely stable. =P
How many of you are making these claims from experience, from having
perfected the throw and tried it twenty times in a game? You list
disadvantages but can't tell me how you know this exactly or if you're
right, why they're crippling to the benefits.
> 3) Although the crux of your argument is quick throws without a mark,
> it bears mentioning again that relying on this throw is a big
> liability against a mark. It is very easy to point block this throw,
Please list me all the perfect throws that can be used in every
situation. You've all made that point, but a throw that can be used
HALF The time or 10% of the time is a USEFUL throw. The thumber has
MUCH less use than the peach.
> I'm not sure why you are using "physics" here; I think you mean
Physics are the laws of motion, bodies, objects, gravity, all the
rules that govern the physical system of how the disc can fly, its
arcs, its rise and fall, how it can be thrown, how we jump, etc.
> The point is that it is an inferior throw in terms of control or
> extension, and any advantage it may have in quick releases is
> negligible in the vast majority of cases.
No one has told me why extension is worth a stinking thing if you're
unmarked. And "release before the marker gets to you" is
nonnegligible.
> Absolutely true. People take advantage of this all the time,
> particularly at higher levels of play. But they usually throw
> backhands, and, sometimes, forehands too.
> Again, people do. As you seem to realize, though, this is not an
> argument for using a thumber grip.
super, now show me how you catch a backhand or forehand position
anywhere above your chest. you probably mean "people do this, but
they usually use the overhand when above the chest," which is the only
single argument I've heard in this entire conversation why perhaps not
to use the peach, when the disc is above chest, in the air, not
marked. I can't really argue as I've never thrown an overhand, but
one major shorthand I see off the ball is that you have to rotate your
entire body to get distance.
*ALRIGHT*, so, can we agree now that at the very least, the peach is
the best throw for getting distance and power for an instant throw
when caught above the chest and unmarked, when there is at least one
open teammate?
Anyway, whichever instant throws you use, why don't we use *more* of
them? Frisbee is stop, wait, throw. Stop, wait throw. Why not
Throw, throw, throw? Maybe the pros have it right, I just don't see
it yet.
I feel like Aragorn in LOTR1 at the end against the whole herd of
peach-hating orcs =P =)
SquishToGo
> anyone catch-and-release that particular throw instantly. But, hey,
> if you can do it reliably, you don't need any blessing from me.
If I can do it you can do it, and if you can all do it, we're playing
frisbee wrong=P (a little). I will make a youtube video for you all.
Seriously!!
SquishToGo
I'm sorry if I'm at all disrespectful, ** I really really appreciate
the debate / feedback **. Really. But, if I think you're incorrect,
I'm still going to say so, and it's not a wasted debate! I've learned
a whole ton including a few weaknesses of this move, and I'll be
damned if someone in 35 messages of peach-propoganda hasn't altered
their POV ever so slightly =).
Al3x
Alright alright, fine. Sure your idea of throwing it right away is
novel, but what I think everyoine is trying to tell you, is that
situations where this throw is useful at all are far too few and far
between to merit practicing it at all. In any high level ultimate
situation, no one is going to be so UNCOVERED downfield that you can
hit them with this throw. The other thing, is that assuming you're
catching the disc on an in cut, you can't even see the downfield
situation. How are you going to possibly make this throw
instantaneously to a guy and hit him in stride (seemingly the only way
to complete this kind of throw). It's just...totally useless to
practice this throw. It is a much higher percentage decision to turn
upfield, ***SEE*** the field, and get the disc moving. If you were to
try to implement this throwing mechanic into an elite game, it's gonna
get d'd 99% of the time.
Adam Tarr
> > you lose nothing by transitioning grips, because you shouldn't be
> > throwing before you achieve balance. This is true even when you are
>
> ok, you claim this, fine, but why. Have you practiced this move?
> It's insanely difficult.
Not particularly difficult when throwing a backhand.
> There is plenty benefit in balance and more
> options from the ground, but there's also a huge benefit in throwing
> insantly, before you're marked,
Absolutely. But it's pretty easy to throw a backhand before the mark
gets set, if you have your throwing option picked out when you catch
the disc. You change grips by the time you land, and then you throw.
It takes practice, but it is not "insanely difficult".
> > Also, and this may be obvious, any pancake catch or thumb-up catch
> > (e.g. a typical below the waist catch) transitions much more easily to
> > a backhand or forehand grip than a thumber grip.
>
> Peaches and oranges. Why would i want to transition to a backhand or
> forehand if I have zero intention of switching grips during this move?
The point is, the backhand is actually faster in many cases, because
it requires less change of grip. And when it requires a change of
grip, it's still not a significant delay.
> > 2) Even quick throws that are thrown immediately after the catch can
> > be made higher-percentage if you can control the speed and shape of
> > the throw. It is vastly easier to throw IO or OI curves with a
> > forehand or backhand than with a thumber forehand. The thumber
> > forehand grip, by its very nature, is a bit unstable (less contact
> > area with the disc) and pretty much only lends itself to one release
> > height and a flat release only.
>
> The forehand where the two fingers are just under the disc allows
> minimal disc contact and people use it.
It's not minimal contact; it's actually a lot more than a thumber
grip.
> minimal disc contact and people use it. I assure you the peach is
> completely stable. =P
It's not impossible to hold the disc in a thumber grip stably, but it
is a lot more difficult.
> How many of you are making these claims from experience, from having
> perfected the throw and tried it twenty times in a game? You list
> disadvantages but can't tell me how you know this exactly
If you're not going to listen to us, or if you expect mastery of the
thumber forehand before we are allowed to criticize it, then why
bother starting the thread?
I have thrown a thumber forehand before. I have seen others throw
them. Due to less stability and a more constrained arm and wrist
angle, it is much harder to throw a specific curve with a thumber
forehand than with a backhand or forehand.
> or if you're
> right, why they're crippling to the benefits.
Because the benefits do not exist when compared to conventiona
throws. You can do all the things you are claiming are important with
a forehand or backhand.
> "release before the marker gets to you" is
> nonnegligible.
Which, again, is not hard to do with a backhand, and some people are
quite good at the quick release flick as well.
> > Absolutely true. People take advantage of this all the time,
> > particularly at higher levels of play. But they usually throw
> > backhands, and, sometimes, forehands too.
>
> super, now show me how you catch a backhand or forehand position
> anywhere above your chest.
You don't. You catch the disc, VERY quickly change your grip, and
release by the time your feet are on the ground. The grip change
doesn't appreciably slow you down.
> anywhere above your chest. you probably mean "people do this, but
> they usually use the overhand when above the chest,"
If you think that's what I meant, you're further past your depth than
I realized. I hate to pull rank on you, but have you ever watched
high level ultimate?
People fast break all the time, but I've never, ever seen someone
throw an overhead simply because they don't want to transition to a
backhand/forehand girp. The ONLY time I see that throw in serious
play is on greatest attempts.
Again, you are vastly overstating the difficulty in changing grips
after the catch for a quick throw.
> *ALRIGHT*, so, can we agree now that at the very least, the peach is
> the best throw for getting distance and power for an instant throw
> when caught above the chest and unmarked, when there is at least one
> open teammate?
Absolutely not. Unless you are falling out of bounds, you are better
off switching grips to throw a backhand. You will have better control
of the cruve and speed of the throw, and you won't be slowed down by
the grip change if you have any practice with it at all.
> Anyway, whichever instant throws you use, why don't we use *more* of
> them? Frisbee is stop, wait, throw. Stop, wait throw. Why not
> Throw, throw, throw? Maybe the pros have it right, I just don't see
> it yet.
When my team is playing well, there's a lot of throw, throw, throw.
And nobody mistakes us for "pros". Also, nobody throws a thumber
flick.
SquishToGo
> novel, but what I think everyoine is trying to tell you, is that
> situations where this throw is useful at all are far too few and far
> between to merit practicing it at all. In any high level ultimate
> situation, no one is going to be so UNCOVERED downfield that you can
> hit them with this throw.
It is because it's so close that it's important. I'm talking about
half second when the marker is five feet away vs three, not "so
uncovered." That is the difference between being barely out of reach,
and close enough to block you.
> catching the disc on an in cut, you can't even see the downfield
> situation. How are you going to possibly make this throw
Maybe you know more about this, but I'm not sure I see the giant
difference between line of sight when standing and line of sight while
sprinting; if I'm running can't I still basically look around? Or,
why can't I stop to catch the disc, take a second, then look around?
> it's gonna get d'd 99% of the time.
Ugh, why? You don't throw the frisbee if you think there's a good
chance it'll be d'd, you throw it to someone open. If you're open,
and the reciever is open, why would it get d'd more than anything else
would?
SquishToGo
this conversation than you'll believe, and I've absorbed a ton of
incredibly valuable info and points, and have said so. But it doesn't
mean I'm auto-convinced.
> Absolutely. But it's pretty easy to throw a backhand before the mark gets set
IF it comes under your chest. Stick your hand up naturally. It's
peach-ready.
> You change grips by the time you land
I'll believe you that it's possible, but in seeing how extremely
difficult getting a peach off before you land is, I can't fathom how
much harder switching in the air is. Why bother?
> it's still not a significant delay.
You keep saying this, I've absorbed the point by now, but *why*? Why
is a quarter second not important? A ball in any sport is caught or
blocked by a milimeter or milisecond.
> It's not minimal contact; it's actually a lot more than a thumber grip.
Look at the wiki pictures. Two fingers and thumb, almost exact same
contact. Plus, that's just the minimum. You can put *full contact*
on the disc for a peach. Just grab a disc overhand as much as you
can, and that's totally peach-ready.
> If you're not going to listen to us, or if you expect mastery of the
That's unfair. I've thanked you guys, and absorbed incredibly
valuable points and information. You can do a ton in theory. I
didn't say mastery, I just mean I've prolly explored this more than
you, I've been practicing all peaches when warming up and cooling down
all summer, and my primary focus aside from the game is looking for
key points to use this move (which takes much more skill than a normal
throw). If you can pull rank, then I can pull summer-long-peach-
practicing-rank. =)
> them. Due to less stability and a more constrained arm and wrist
Correct me if your less stability is coming from the wiki picture
throw. The throw can be thrown with maximum stability, and I have yet
to hear why the contrainted wrist matters if I can throw the disc
despite that restraint.
> but have you ever watched high level ultimate?
Can't there be new or re-popularized football plays out of hundreds?
Can't Joe and Bob talk about all the things the coach did wrong?
> Again, you are vastly overstating the difficulty in changing grips after the catch for a quick throw.
You're really saying the time necessary to switch your grip on a
frisbee from over it to under it is infinitesimal to the time of
catching and releasing an object before falling a foot and a half to
the ground?
> When my team is playing well, there's a lot of throw, throw, throw.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4714212151596577822&hl=en
Fourth video on google for "frisbee" 20+ min. The first "instant
throw" I see is at about 2:47 into the game. And it's a forehand,
only because it's caught under the waste.
Bottom line: 1) You can use full contact to throw a peach. 2) A
milisecond matters in sports. 3) You can't use your back/forhand
above your waist. 4) Constrained wrist doesn't matter any more than
contrained rocket launcher. and 5) Twenty throws into game before one
instant throw = stop, throw. stop, throw.
SquishToGo
Sorry, that didn't make sense, I meant, sometimes there's a very tiny
window if you've cut far enough away from the defender to stop and
look just as the disc gets to you.
[the validation below is frismst: friz' missed?]