#23 of Big Sky Dropped Goal in Masters Division Finals Game
jenki...@yahoo.com
Big Sky to make the score 10-10 during the Finals of the Masters
division.
After watching the play from video regular speed, I thought it was
pretty clear that #23's grip on the disc changes from when he catches
it in the air (thumb on top of disc with fingers curled around to the
bottom) to when he raises the disc in celebration (fingers on top of
disc with thumb curled around to the bottom). Upon further review
(replays and slow motion), it is blatantly clear #23 catches the disc
in the air with thumb on the top, hits the ground, hand popps off and
slides toward the opposite side of the disc, then #23 grips the disc
with thumb on bottom, raises in false celebration.
So, my questions are thus: did anybody else notice besides me? In
particular during the game? Weren't there tons of spectators? Nobody
said anything? Also, is this a blatant disregard for Spirit of the Game
by #23, or was it a case of trying to sell the catch, like so many
baseball outfielders or wide receivers attempt to do?
Even if the observer did see this, could he have done anything? My
understanding of the rules is that it is a goal unless the other team
says something, because the observer can't make active UP/DOWN calls?
Yet another arguement I see in favor of observers making active UP/DOWN
calls.
Or could the observer give the player a yellow card, for a violation of
Spirit of the Game due to his attempt to dupe everyone even though he
knew he dropped it?
mui...@gmail.com
did notice that the disc appeared to, possibly, pop out of his hand as
it hits the ground. I haven't seen the video so I can't comment
further.
Good thing Throwback won, otherwise there would be some controversy.
dsky
actually went to the observer who incorrectly (as shown on the video)
called it up...
it happened very quickly, but you could see that there was a scoop
motion as he reached back to get the disc..
sweet bid though...
dk
tallpeter
disc...@hotmail.com
his/her turkey cooked this thanksgiving.
...thinly (or not) veiled accusations of cheating seem pretty lame.
Espeically after the fact. Personal stake? Agenda? What up?
If it went to the observers and they ruled....well, it is done.
Leave it on the field.
jenki...@yahoo.com
thought was obvious and to gather more information about the context of
the situation. I didn't know that it went to the observers. That's what
I was trying to find out...you're right, it went to the observers and
now it's over.
Second, why are accusations of cheating lame? Why would we as an
ultimate community tolerate cheating? If #23 genuinely believed he
caught that disc, fine, nice bid. However, if #23 knew he dropped and
didn't say anything, he violated the Spirit of the Game, and cheated,
cut and dry.
Lionel
> Second, why are accusations of cheating lame? Why would we as an
> ultimate community tolerate cheating? If #23 genuinely believed he
> caught that disc, fine, nice bid. However, if #23 knew he dropped and
> didn't say anything, he violated the Spirit of the Game, and cheated,
> cut and dry.
I call Spirit Foul on you. You called an SOTG issue "cut and dry."
Spirit Foul. ::pointing and yelling:: SPIRIT FOUL!!!
Reid K
1. A player must acknowledge the score
2. If the ground causes a player to drop the disc, any possession up
to that point is negated.
turnover, and based on the video, it looks to me that he had to have
known that he dropped it.
hel...@gmail.com
clearly knew he dropped it, but that's what happens when you turn the
game over to observers/refs -- it becomes what you can get away with,
not what happened... unfortunately it does damage to the sport.
bradle...@aol.com
argument. Or how about those people who make bad calls but without
observers there's nothing you can do about them?
With observers: Really close call (apparently frame by frame analysis
is needed) disc is ruled up.
Without observers: Heated argument for several minutes about up/down,
call goes to best perspective, several more heated minutes determining
best perspective, either reciever gets to keep the score, or it's a
do-over. Either way spectators are pissed that they had to watch 10
minutes of arguing.
Score vs Score or Do-Over after 10 minutes, you're right...observers
suck and damage the sport.
Kebo
The nature of competition itself pushes people to do "what they can get
away with" it happens with observers, without observers, with refs, and
without them. Go wash your dreads hippy.
Handy
> away with" it happens with observers, without observers, with refs, and
> without them. Go wash your dreads hippy.
First of all I totally support the use of observers and in this case,
the guy made the call as he saw it, that's just the way it goes.
However, Kebo, I couldn't disagree any more than I do with your
assessment of "competition." I give the game my all but if people were
really trying to do "what they can get away with" the game would become
soccer with people writhing on the ground to get calls. They day where
it is common for people to sneak offenses by just because they think
they can is the day I start playing dischoops. Go vote republican, at
least the hippies have some ethics with their dreads.
tki...@gmail.com
individual honesty is relied upon. Observers do their best, and that's
all they can do. They shouldn't be faulted. So when cheating occurs and
is overlooked, there must be some other consequence. I see rsd as a
good forum to provide some social consequences to cheating.
#23, Boyd Miller, cheated in the Masters Finals at Nationals in 2006.
Here's the video:
http://www.ultivillage.com/Ultimate-Frisbee-Videos/Clip-of-the-Day/UCC-Masters-Day-3.html
And here's his name and jersey number:
http://club2006.upa.org/team/masters/BigSky.php
He made a great bid for a hammer catch, caught it, dropped it on ground
impact, switched his grip, and picked the disc up as if nothing had
happened. This tied the game at 10s, leading up to a Nationals victory
for his team.
A tainted victory. He should be ashamed.
Tyler
BAT #72
hel...@gmail.com wrote:
> To be clear: I'm offended (in a sporting sense only) by the chicanery
> and the goal of trying to sell a catch as having happened when it
> didn't -- that is, taking credit where none is due. It was a great
> effort but he didn't make the play and he knew he didn't make the
> play.*
>
> This difference is the sort of thing that frustrates other sports that
> I play -- flopping in soccer or the hand of god goal and its ilk...
> flopping in basketball... selling a catch in football... etc...
>
> here's what I'm not offended by... awesomely intense (maybe even
> ultimate) competition that is on the up and up. for example, this year
> I played some elite level ultimate for the first time in a while
> against some of the top club teams in the region. Was initially STUNNED
> by the amount of clutching and grabbing between defenders and cutters
> at this level. After a few points I got used to it, but it's
> interesting how the sport has morphed slightly at that level. Because
> your team often loses an advantage when you call the ticky tack bumping
> and grinding, you don't call it so that activity goes unchecked. I
> realized that this wasn't a bad thing in the end however, because the
> difference here though (versus what I find offensive above) is that the
> reason for all that contact (what a casual player would call fouling)
> is the intensity of the effort being put forth to stay with and defend
> and to get open to receive a pass. This same sort of difference is
> seen in the NBA v. college v. the local pick-up game at the Y; certain
> contact at the pick-up game is always a foul whereas when you go up the
> scale things change due to the size/strength/ability/reputation of the
> players.
>
> This however is wholly different than the problem with selling a catch
> you know is a turnover. I don't fault John Stockton for his clutching
> and grabbing on defense or when sliding around a pick -- it's dirty but
> its intense and he's not selling that he's not doing it.. he's actively
> doing it and making no bones about it (he's saying call the foul if you
> want -- we both know I'm doing it). Selling a catch isn't being
> intense it's lying/deceiving -- and is extremely offensive to a sport
> that relies on honor.
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not hippy... just an attorney.
>
> *Anyone playing at that level knows whether they've caught it or not in
> that situation. He bobbled it on the ground. This was not a situation
> of whether he got his hand under the lip before an edge hit the ground
> (a very hard call to make) this was a full hand positon switch while
> having no possession. That's just crap and he'll have to live with
> knowing that every single person that sees that clip on RSD knows he's
> a freaking liar and never to be believed whenever he makes a call on
> the ultimate field again. Basically, this whole thread is slowly
> stripping him of his honor and should caution other players from making
> the same mistake. By the way... to fully fillet the joker -- what was
> his name?
>
> -Heltzer
disc...@hotmail.com
try your case in court duder and not on the public forum.
this should have been left on the field....
mui...@gmail.com
tkin...@gmail.com wrote:
> He made a great bid for a hammer catch, caught it, dropped it on ground
> impact, switched his grip, and picked the disc up as if nothing had
> happened. This tied the game at 10s, leading up to a Nationals victory
> for his team.
>
> A tainted victory. He should be ashamed.
Uh, he lost.
disc...@hotmail.com
cheapen it with your ill will and blather.
Throwback won the game over Big Sky, on a callahan D point at hard cap.
All you armchair observers out there with opinions need to STFU. The
details and results from the game were completed when the game was
over. get over it, move on, whatever it takes.
There is no evidence of intentional cheating and again, this shit is
lame and uncalled for.
Lets go back to discussing whether or not rolling onto the toe of your
pivot is a travel, or whether or not it is ethical to force a pick when
the count is getting high for your team.
tki...@gmail.com
I am pwned.
Damn, and I read over that thing like 5 times before putting it out
there. Damn.
Well, I still hate cheating. Shoot, I've lost any credibility here,
haven't I...
Tyler
tki...@gmail.com
I'll admit that I was a moron for thinking that they won. Oops.
However, would you not agree that he had to have known he dropped that
disc? I mean, his grip changes. That is obvious. Do you not know when
your grip changes on the disc? Am I high here again?
With this in mind, and I do mean to pose the question in order to get a
reasonable response- If you truly believe someone cheated, should you
not make it known? I'd see a public forum, such as rsd, the correct
place to voice an opinion like this. That's why I posted as I did.
I do think this fellow cheated, and I do think it is wrong. If he knew
he dropped it, which I think he did, he ought to acknowledge it and
drop the disc. That's a turnover. However, he didn't and he acted like
he scored.
If he believed he caught it, well, that would truly amaze me, and I'd
apologize. But somehow, I highly doubt this.
Publicly ousting somebody for cheating seems quite reasonable to me- if
you cheat, you should expect it. Maybe it will deter potential
cheaters. That's my hope.
Tell me why I'm wrong for posting. I honestly don't know why it's so
lame, and am open to discussion here.
Tyler
colinm...@gmail.com
that a player did in fact cheat, then why leave it on the field? So
that he may not be held responsible for his actions or viewed in a
different light by people who weren't there, but will have an
opportunity to see the action?
I can understand perhaps not calling someone a cheater for a call that
you think was bad and then narrating the story. There's no basis on
which someone can make an informed opinion. But when you have video
evidence, why not expose someone's actions on a public forum? Everyone
who sees it gets to make their own informed opinion. What's the
problem?
josh
noted. Yes, you forgot which team won the Master's final. And I'm quite
sure that you're the only Open Nationals player this year that did,
too.
As long as our sport remains without objective, impartial judgement
makers, in the hands of each individual athlete to officiate, it
remains in the sport's own best interest for players (& even fans) to
promote integrity & honesty, whenever possible, even if after the
violator (& everyone else) has gone back home. Whenever it is noticed,
calling it out & talking about it publicly just makes sense. If an NFL
ref missed a call that could be seen through recorded video evidence,
should the fans just "leave that call on the field" & tell everyone
else to just "STFU"? Don't call into radio stations. Don't rant online
in discussion boards & blogs. Should we be less enthusiastic &
passionate about our sport?
Name-calling & telling everyone to stop talking about it only makes you
look like you've got something to lose from the truth being debated &
decided. Talking about and exposing (even potential) deception can only
have a positive impact on the sport. When you get caught cheating in
life, you get punished appropriately. Consequences - they just make
sense. If you don't like that, you're in for a nice life.
Finucane
hollering at anyone who will listen while the cheater and his cheating
cheats congratulate one another on their cheat.
It even looks like the guy sort of held up the disc toward the
observers as he stood, just like football receivers do after they catch
the ball on a skip. Not an active call, but he must have figured it
would be argued.
Chris Van Holmes
I don't know what video you are watching but it sure isn't clear to me
that he dropped that disc. Maybe he did but the video is not
decisive.
Thumb up..thumb down...point out the frame where that changes?
CVH
tallpeter> here is the video...
tallpeter> http://www.ultivillage.com/Ultimate-Frisbee-Videos/Clip-of-the-Day/UCC-Masters-Day-3.html
jarm...@yahoo.com
josh
they occur. They live forever in our collective stories & memories,
especially the controversies during the biggest events. Why else do we
have a National Championship if we expect the details and results to be
forgotten the next month?
Mark LaSalle, I do appreciate your enthusiastic support for your
teammate & friend. But thus far, you seem to be the only one who is
offerring "ill will and blather." Tyler is trying to point out
something that should be corrected, and admirably so. He does not stoop
to insults nor saying that we should all just talk about something
else.
You make a valid point that without a confession, we can never be sure
of someone's motives & knowledge. But like Tyler said, putting himself
in those shoes, he thinks he'd have known full well that he was making
a false judgment. And that's also a valid point. It is, then, left up
to each individual to make a conclusion (or not). But hopefully, each
individual will be encouraged not to knowingly make a false judgment.
Big Sky was a solid team this year. 2nd best in their division. No one
is disputing that (to my knowledge). Impressive season! My hat is off
to you guys for that.
hel...@gmail.com
The quality of this video (no offense to the videographer -- but I'm
watching streaming vid on the internet in a 3x3 window) is certainly
not of high enough quality or from a good enough perspective to
overturn a call made by the player or by the observer... so we can't
fully rip this duder (but maybe the original is quality enough to tell
what's going on -- UVTV speak up). But something funky is certainly
happening with his hand placement and there was argument on the field
about it -- so this discussion has a basis.
GH
#33 HOV Violators
hel...@gmail.com
Disc never lies.
Adam Tarr
> I don't know what video you are watching but it sure isn't clear to me
> that he dropped that disc. Maybe he did but the video is not
> decisive.
>
> Thumb up..thumb down...point out the frame where that changes?
Well, it's clear that his thumb is on the dome when he catches it in
the air, and when his hand and the disc hit the ground. It's also
clear when he lifts his hand off the ground to show the disc, his thumb
is on the inside of the rim. It's almost certain that whenever the
grip changed, the disc was touching the ground.
I would also argue that it's impossible to have control of a disc
that's on the ground while changing grips. This seems to leave only
two possible interpretations:
- He lost his grip due to ground contact related to the catch, and then
re-gripped and lifted it up. Negation of posession, turnover.
- He changed his grip on the disc voluntarily after the catch and
related ground contact was complete, and the goal acknowledged.
To be honest, the first case seems like the overwhelming likelihood.
Personally, I find the second interpretation impossible to stomach,
because even if the grip change was voluntary, he was still being
carried across the ground by his momentum. Even a voluntary grip
change presupposes that the receiver is going to be able to hold onto
the disc through the rest of the catch. To put that another way - I
don't see how a clap spike could be a turnover unless this is as well.
Porter
ultimate fall league.
Daag Alemayehu
> > The nature of competition itself pushes people to do "what they can get
> > away with" it happens with observers, without observers, with refs, and
> > without them. Go wash your dreads hippy.
>
> really trying to do "what they can get away with" the game would become
> soccer with people writhing on the ground to get calls. They day where
> it is common for people to sneak offenses by just because they think
> they can is the day I start playing dischoops. Go vote republican, at
> least the hippies have some ethics with their dreads.
Very honorable of you, Handy, but I'm going to guess that you've never
played for any sort of championship. Not saying that it's right (it's
not), but it IS what happens. All the time.
Julian
the crowd.
(is that a Parinella quote?)
Parinella
Julian wrote:
> Au contraire, mon ami. The only thing that lies more than the disc is
> the crowd.
>
>
> (is that a Parinella quote?)
Um, sure, why not. I, or someone I once knew, say a lot of things. I
don't get enough credit for things around here.
I would have yelled, "Cheat to lose by 1!"
Handy
championship and I'll grant you that it does happen, but I'd like to
think that there is a difference between a sport where I once got
threatened by a guy "if you beat me you'll never make it back to your
car after the race" and a sport based on "SOTG," regardless of the
level. I know it happens but let me entertain my dreams that the sport
won't devolve into absoultely needing refs
*sigh*
Kyle_W...@brown.edu
Daag, you are just wrong here. It is not common for people "to sneak
offenses by" when they are playing for championships in Ultimate. And
it most certainly doesn't happen "all the time." I've played in 4
college championships and 5 club championships (using the term "play"
loosely in the club championships ;) in the open division and watched 2
more college and 1 more club championships and I'm speaking from that
experience. It does happen on rare occassions (I only recall seeing
one play at Nationals in the last two years where I thought someone was
knowingly cheating) and that's when observers can be helpful (as well
as when players just don't know what happened).
-Kyle
brob722
Finucane wrote:
> You can see Dennis in the background pointing down, his big head
> hollering at anyone who will listen while the cheater and his cheating
> cheats congratulate one another on their cheat.
>
Finucane,
are you really this much of an idiot? are you attempting to be funny?
regardless of whether or not the catch is legitimate, you have just
called out the entire team as cheaters. that's bullshit...not funny.
-Pat Benson
Big Sky Ultimate
danfri...@yahoo.com
brob722 wrote:
> Finucane,
>
> are you really this much of an idiot? are you attempting to be funny?
> regardless of whether or not the catch is legitimate, you have just
> called out the entire team as cheaters. that's bullshit...not funny.
>
> -Pat Benson
> Big Sky Ultimate
Agreed, it's not right to call the whole team out as cheaters. Only
the receiver need be called out here. I'd like to hear more about how
the catch could have been legitimate though. That's the part we're not
understanding.
seanc
"Cheating deserves consequences. However, as a self-officiated game,
individual honesty is relied upon. Observers do their best, and that's
all they can do. They shouldn't be faulted. So when cheating occurs and
is overlooked, there must be some other consequence. I see rsd as a
good forum to provide some social consequences to cheating"
i think we're calling this guy out way too early. what evidence do we
have that he cheated?
- his hand position changed on the disc, as viewed on a clip shown at
relatively low resolution and few frames per second, shot from pretty
far away.
- a couple eye-witnesses thought it was down (not sure where they stood
in relation to the play).
- his actions (showing the disc to the observers) may be interpreted as
an attempt to get away with something.
and based on this we're saying he not only cheated, but he did so
knowingly -- and we're attempting to publicly shame him on rsd?
as far as the video is concerned, after he catches the disc and rolls
on the ground, does anyone else see his left arm come up, along with
his right arm with the disc, just before he stands up? maybe my eyes
are giving out or i'm seeing the shadow of a passing bird or something,
but this could have provided him an opportunity to change his hand
position before he waves the disc around.
the witnesses may be the strongest evidence, at least until i order my
ultivillage dvd set, but witnesses are notoriously mistaken (no offense
-- i'm sure you're eagle-eyed and steadfast), and even they agree that
it happened very fast.
i strongly disagree that events like this should be "left on the
field." as others have pointed out, discussion on a forum like this is
beneficial for many reasons. however, i think we need better, more
explicit proof before we post someone's name online and pretend like
our claims are irrefutable.
respectfully,
sean
brob722
sure, but i can't help there. it happened very fast when it happened
and i ahven't talked with the receiver since florida. i'm sure when we
all get together there will be plenty of discussion about the play.
i can tell you that Big Sky takes a lot of pride in playing tough
honest ultimate. we don't practice, have an offense, or a defensive
scheme. we're just a bunch of snowboarders and skiers that play frisbee
in the offseason.
many of us met for the first time at nationals. we had a good time and
feel like we played well against a very tough team that has played
together for years. we brought several players that had never been to
an ultimate tourney before regionals and were able to scrap our way to
finals.
i take offense to posts that call out the team and claim that we
deserved to lose because of the play in question. we lost because the
other team played better. congrats to throwback....we enjoyed and
respected the competition and hope they were left with a similar
feeling.
regards,
Pat
Chris Van Holmes
brob722> i can tell you that Big Sky takes a lot of pride in playing
brob722> tough honest ultimate. we don't practice, have an offense,
brob722> or a defensive scheme. we're just a bunch of snowboarders
brob722> and skiers that play frisbee in the offseason.
I hear you had kegworkers as well. 11 in all in the finals on both teams?
brob722> many of us met for the first time at nationals. we had a
brob722> good time and feel like we played well against a very tough
brob722> team that has played together for years.
If you are refering to Throwback...they are as new as you are. This
fall was their first competitive season.
CVH
eaton.ch...@gmail.com
> I hear you had kegworkers as well. 11 in all in the finals on both teams?
> If you are refering to Throwback...they are as new as you are. This
> fall was their first competitive season.
>
> CVH
BigSky Masters at Nationals this year was 15 players from the Big Sky
section, 12 of which reside in Boise, Idaho. We were fortunate to have
5 Bay Area buddies on the team as well. I think they played for the
keggies in years past.
The name Throwback is new..... and is new to the Masters division, but
the players are not new to each other.
Calling someone a cheater on a public forum like this, solely based on
a grainy video that is totally unclear is absolutely disgraceful.
Luke Smith
Jim, you hack...
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: lukesmith
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:45:43 GMT
Subject: Re: why SOTG will fail outside the schoolyard
To:
>
>contest the call, give the ball back to the quarter/running back.
>do over and see what really happened... the question should be: does the ball,
>like the disc, never lie?
If it is 4th and inches, a goal, a turnover or a penalty must occur
right? A
'do-over' is a lie.
The only thing that lies more than the disc is the crowd.
hel...@gmail.com
and more than one suspect incident and better footage... but we should
definitely HECKLE him -- especially because the dude can play (freaking
hot bid)... and it's always more fun to heckle talented players.
Think of this whole thread as a bunch of guys sitting around the tube
watching an NBA or NFL game and a player in that game flops to get the
charge call or sells a catch as being in bounds or possessed. It looks
like he took a dive... but how can you be sure? Surely, someone in the
room will say -- "that's crap... replay that jonx." And then a
discussion will ensue and we'll argue about it and each individual will
make a decision on what they think the right answer is in their own
mind (marketplace of ideas). In my mind, the best response thus far is
that something funky seems to have happened, but it's too grainy to
tell (his hand position on the disc changes, but he still grips it the
same way and it's difficult to tell when exactly his hand position
changes)... This is a far different assessment than my initial reaction
of "let's filet the duder." That means that this discussion has been
beneficial. It's talked me down from ripping the guy as a cheater
because my boys sitting around the tube with me, pointed out why it's
not as black and white as my initial assessment.
At the same time, we're having a side conversation (subplot) on how you
get rid of cheating in the game. The discussion is -- well maybe using
RSD is a good way to harass cheaters and get them to mend their ways
especially if you have video proving it (not this case)... Fine by me.
If that doesn't make it okay for you.. think about it like this. If I
was on the sideline at the time of the catch (and I use the word
"catch" loosely), I would be heckling the crap out of him regardless of
whether it was actually up or down and especially if he turfed his next
throw... because the disc never lies. This is just some delayed
heckling.
DLKar...@gmail.com
finucane, (if thats even your real name), you need to apologize for
making
an awful joke that probably made no one laugh. NO ONE.
...at all
...even for a second.
Adam Tarr
> what evidence do we
> have that he cheated?
>
> - his hand position changed on the disc, as viewed on a clip shown at
> relatively low resolution and few frames per second, shot from pretty
> far away.
It is impossible to argue that his hand position didn't change, and
almost impossible to argue that the disc was not touching the ground
when this happened.
> - a couple eye-witnesses thought it was down (not sure where they stood
> in relation to the play).
> - his actions (showing the disc to the observers) may be interpreted as
> an attempt to get away with something.
Neither of these things significantly affect my thought process.
> and based on this we're saying he not only cheated, but he did so
> knowingly -- and we're attempting to publicly shame him on rsd?
>
> as far as the video is concerned, after he catches the disc and rolls
> on the ground, does anyone else see his left arm come up, along with
> his right arm with the disc, just before he stands up? maybe my eyes
> are giving out or i'm seeing the shadow of a passing bird or something,
> but this could have provided him an opportunity to change his hand
> position before he waves the disc around.
I'm not sure what you saw, but his left arm is clearly on his left side
when he lands, and as he rolls it's pinned under his body. He's lifted
the disc before his left arm is free. His left hand did not touch the
disc at any point.
> i strongly disagree that events like this should be "left on the
> field." as others have pointed out, discussion on a forum like this is
> beneficial for many reasons. however, i think we need better, more
> explicit proof before we post someone's name online and pretend like
> our claims are irrefutable.
Based on the video and the video alone, I can't see how the play could
not be a turnover. Yours is the first effort to provide an alternate
scenario where it's not a turnover, and I don't find it credible.
Luke Smith
i mean, really, drawing attention to that orange on a toothpick, that
spooootnik... i mean. show some class... now is this dennis, or danny
karlinsky. I don't know him. it is a funny coincidence, well, odd,
not ha ha, that they have the same name, went to ucsc, and play
frisbee...
brob722
yes, we had some keggies and a couple of KAVU guys. turned out to be a
great combo. had an absolute blast playing with them for a change. i
hope it's not the last time.
yeah, throwback is new...but we've been playing against those guys for
a long time in one form or another. even been fortunate enough to play
with a couple of em a while back. very talented players and they were
very respectful to us in the heat of the game.
fiftythree
> Woah... we're not out and out calling him a cheater... that takes time
> and more than one suspect incident and better footage... but we should
> definitely HECKLE him -- especially because the dude can play (freaking
> hot bid)... and it's always more fun to heckle talented players.
People were pretty insistent on calling it blatantly cheating. This is
the ultimate communitie's forum, not some NFL side chat room. We are
the players. But I agree there's no harm in a discussion. These
things should be discussed.
Is it because a goal resulted that people are so irate? Well lets talk
about some other plays since Rob has been so good as to provide us with
a means of quickly seeing the results of our efforts. Thanks Rob!
If you have downloaded the whole video of the Masters final - shortly
after minute 7 of the video - Throwback player being fouled on the mark
calls a foul and then (once he is free) throws it afterward resulting
in a swilly pass which is not completed. Turnover as stated in the
continuation rule. But he calls back for the disc. He's also about 2
yards out from the endzone when this happens. And they score on this
drive after some good defense by Big Sky.
XVI
G. Continuation Rule:
2. If the disc is not in the air and the thrower was not in the act of
throwing at the time of the call and the thrower subsequently attempts
a pass:
a) Play continues un-halted if the pass was incomplete and:
(1) the defense called the foul or violation; or
(2) the thrower called the foul or violation.
So, did the Throwback player know he was no longer being fouled when he
threw it? Would you call this cheating in the 1st degree?
Pre-meditated? As opposed to a very intense, face in dirt grab switch
of hand grip I think I scored second degree cheat?
Wanna see a flop? Check out right before minute 21. Ummm maybe a
foul, but c'mon now. Stand up and take it. I guess a long weekend of
ultimate will wanna make you lay down on the ground. Both teams look
pretty worked by the end of the game.
And while we're at it. In the Open final - travel, travel, travel.
Hate to be on the Frank bandwagon, but shit. I wonder once the
observer system has enough talent - make an active travel call. Things
are going so fast when you're playing that it is hard to know that the
travel is happening. Does this go under the same umbrella as a double
team call? Where do we draw the line for officiating. One thing for
sure, probably going to have to start at the college level and work its
way up.
Nevertheless. Great game for the Masters. Nice callahan - It looked
lovely as I watched you fly past me.
Herb Kaup
(from the Big Sky Section)
which includes the state of IDAHO, people!
p.s.
XIII A 3
If the disc is to be put into play at a spot other than where
possession was gained, the thrower must carry the disc to the
appropriate spot on the field, TOUCH THE DISC TO THE GROUND, and put
the disc into play at that spot,
cheaters! :)
jenki...@yahoo.com
grainy...shenanigans!
If you download the full game video, there is a 2nd replay from a
better angle (not shown in COTD). Specifically there is a 3 frame
sequence, with the last frame being at exactly 17:47, that shows the
following:
Frame 1: Thumb on dome, fingers curled (grip on front endzone line side
of disc)
Frame 2: Hand in middle of the disc, not gripping the disc
Frame 3: Fingers on dome, thumb curled (grip on back endzone line side
of disc)
Blatantly clear. And as others have said, there's a very small
possibility #23 actually thought he caught that disc. But I don't
believe it. I'm am still curious, however, to hear what #23 has to say.
Seamus
seanc
> It is impossible to argue that his hand position didn't change, and
> almost impossible to argue that the disc was not touching the ground
> when this happened.
> when he lands, and as he rolls it's pinned under his body. He's lifted
> the disc before his left arm is free. His left hand did not touch the
> disc at any point.
> not be a turnover. Yours is the first effort to provide an alternate
> scenario where it's not a turnover, and I don't find it credible.
adam, i think you make well-reasoned posts. as you say, it seems
pretty clear that his hand position changed. from what i can see on
the video, i agree with you that it probably should have been a
turnover.
my question is, at what point do we convict the guy and call him a
cheater?
i'm not comfortable doing that based on the clip of the day link posted
higher up the chain... sounds like there's more info on the full game
download (is the quality better? which one are you looking at?). it's
possible that would sway me, but i dunno i'd have to see it.
sean
seanc
> Woah... we're not out and out calling him a cheater... that takes time
> and more than one suspect incident and better footage... but we should
> definitely HECKLE him -- especially because the dude can play (freaking
> hot bid)... and it's always more fun to heckle talented players.
that guy from BAT wrote:
"#23, [the dude's name], cheated in the Masters Finals at Nationals in
2006."
otherwise, i agree with you completely.
oh, except where you claim "the disc never lies" is your burn. pretty
sure that was around before you were born. even if you're like 50.
"get a library card!" has always been my favorite, shouted as the guy
misreads the disc. too bad it's not mine.
s.
mui...@gmail.com
seanc wrote:
> oh, except where you claim "the disc never lies" is your burn. pretty
> sure that was around before you were born. even if you're like 50.
> "get a library card!" has always been my favorite, shouted as the guy
> misreads the disc. too bad it's not mine.
No, he definitely invented the "disc never lies" thing. And did you
know Frank Huegenard invented the high release backhand? RSD never
lies...
Adam Tarr
> as you say, it seems
> pretty clear that his hand position changed. from what i can see on
> the video, i agree with you that it probably should have been a
> turnover.
>
> my question is, at what point do we convict the guy and call him a
> cheater?
All I'm comfortable saying is that I'm very confident it should have
been a turnover. To go from that to "#23 cheated", you need to assume
two things:
- that he was aware that the disc was on the ground when he re-gripped
- that he knows the rule (loss of posession due to ground contact
negates...)
Even if we assume both of those things, there's a difference between
"he cheated" and "he's a cheater". I'll admit I've called a down disc
up before - it was a similar play (layout huck catch in the endzone,
disc came loose momentarily while skidding) about seven years ago. I
knew what had happened, but nobody had a clear view because my body was
in the way. I hope admiting to this incident doesn't label me a
cheater.
(wait for it... wait for it...)
Handy
Anyway, as for your two points
-you know
-If you're dropping the money to fly from Idaho to Florida for a few
days to play in the national championships then learn the rules, clown.
No excuses.
See you "knew what happened." Sure the excitement can make it seem
different but fundamentally, you know.
ultimatep...@gmail.com
seemed to be a fairly consistent feeling that many master's
players do not, in fact, know the 10th edition that well.
of course, that can be said of players in all divisions.
it is interesting that we play a game that requires
players to make their own calls, but that also does
not require players to know the (current) rules. one would
think that the latter would be a necessary condition
for the former. maybe an even more important condition
than matching shorts. of course, many people in many places
have said this. when will we do something about
it?
on #23. other than this call/no call, he had a freaking
great game. he was head and shoulders above everyone
else on the field, at least in the 2nd half (the part that i
saw).
in any case, i would suggest that we lay this to rest
until he comments. as things stand, it doesn't look
good for him. he'll need to respond directly to change
that... there's nothing that the rest of us can do
to right things for him.
> > (wait for it... wait for it...)- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Hotpants
You downloaded a whole game of masters? hehe.
neurodancer
ultimatep...@gmail.com wrote:
> from the comments that i heard over the weekend, there
> seemed to be a fairly consistent feeling that many master's
> players do not, in fact, know the 10th edition that well.
> of course, that can be said of players in all divisions.
>
> it is interesting that we play a game that requires
> players to make their own calls, but that also does
> not require players to know the (current) rules. one would
> think that the latter would be a necessary condition
> for the former. maybe an even more important condition
> than matching shorts. of course, many people in many places
> have said this. when will we do something about
> it?
>
>
freakin' disc (or not). WTF?
ND
rollinnufffatter
DLKar...@gmail.com wrote:
> ya, that finucane guy is a problem. everyone knows it.
>
> finucane, (if thats even your real name), you need to apologize for
> making
> an awful joke that probably made no one laugh. NO ONE.
> ...at all
> ...even for a second.
>
I laughed. then I hacked up a lung
>
kriw...@gmail.com
I reserved judgment on this until I could watch the clip on a 22" brand
new Samsung monitor. Watching frame by frame on that monitor, it is
incredibly clear that he changed his grip on the disc while the disc
was still on the ground and he was still moving from his bid. The video
angle is perfect and, notably, is much better than the angle that the
closest observer had on the other side of #23's body.
Further, it appears that his hand catches on the ground as his body
begins to slide by, he loses control, his head turns to look at his
hand still on the disc (his body's momentum may have made his head turn
in this fashion, but it looks intentional on the bigger monitor -- not
on my smaller one), he changes grip while his body is still moving and
stands up with it as if he had maintained possession.
I am 100% sure that it should have been a turnover.
As for whether or not he is a cheater, let's consult the first
definition of "cheat" in wiktionary: "To violate rules in order to gain
advantage from a situation." Ding-ding-ding.
I cannot imagine he didn't know what he'd done, and he definitely
violated the rule. The only possible "out" I've seen on this forum is
that he may not have known the rule for maintaining possession of the
disc through ground contact ("unintentional cheating", maybe?).
Therefore I cannot say with 100% certainty that he is a cheater -- only
99% certainty.
It would be nice to hear from a player who was on the field as to how
the discussion of up/down went before it went to the observer. If
someone informed him of the rule ("you have to keep control all the way
through ground contact, dude"), then the "he might not have known the
rule" defense goes away.
Ken
On Nov 9, 1:46 pm, "Adam Tarr" <ahtarrNOS...@gmail.com> wrote:
> seanc wrote:
> > what evidence do we
> > have that he cheated?
>
> > - his hand position changed on the disc, as viewed on a clip shown at
> > relatively low resolution and few frames per second, shot from pretty
> > far away.It is impossible to argue that his hand position didn't change, and
> almost impossible to argue that the disc was not touching the ground
> when this happened.
>
> > - a couple eye-witnesses thought it was down (not sure where they stood
> > in relation to the play).
> > - his actions (showing the disc to the observers) may be interpreted as
> > an attempt to get away with something.Neither of these things significantly affect my thought process.
>
> > and based on this we're saying he not only cheated, but he did so
> > knowingly -- and we're attempting to publicly shame him on rsd?
>
> > as far as the video is concerned, after he catches the disc and rolls
> > on the ground, does anyone else see his left arm come up, along with
> > his right arm with the disc, just before he stands up? maybe my eyes
> > are giving out or i'm seeing the shadow of a passing bird or something,
> > but this could have provided him an opportunity to change his hand
> > position before he waves the disc around.I'm not sure what you saw, but his left arm is clearly on his left side
> when he lands, and as he rolls it's pinned under his body. He's lifted
> the disc before his left arm is free. His left hand did not touch the
> disc at any point.
>
> > i strongly disagree that events like this should be "left on the
> > field." as others have pointed out, discussion on a forum like this is
> > beneficial for many reasons. however, i think we need better, more
> > explicit proof before we post someone's name online and pretend like
> > our claims are irrefutable.Based on the video and the video alone, I can't see how the play could