Okay, look, I had more trouble than ever playing a simple pickup game this week due to an exhausting 90-message two-week debate on top of an "aww, come on" on a great completed thumber pass for not throwing it to the single most open person on the field after showing up 40 minutes early to stand alone and practice so as not to annoy anyone, showing ITs to a nine year old who threw some well and was the nicest person about it I've come across.
You're naturally a little sarcastic on a board, fine, but you can't fathom the affect 120 raters saying "you stink" has on your *life*. I believe I have not been any ruder than you; what remains is a disagreement on strategy. I think it's very unfair BUT, if you don't agree, fine, but accepting that, if there isn't a single thing I can say to earn the right to even talk to you learn from all the people I'm trying to impress which I've done by sifting through the sarcasm and taking all the points into account, the only reason I came here, I simply can't play this sport anymore.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't mark this post with "Terrible apology; this guy shouldn't be playing ultimate," because this isn't a board, this is life, and very few of you would be on a team with me and talk trash about me to my face every week. Bottom line, if someone can upset you so much that there isn't a single permutation of characters in which I can ask for the right to talk with you or not two people that can say "Alright, fine, good luck," even if you think it's silly, then you tell me, seriously, what course of action I must take over the next years to earn the right to talk to anyone else about this sport, because otherwise I can't play it.
Thanks.
Squish
If you want to check in on my little campagin to impress all you guys you can check squish7.com/frisbee
> Okay, look, I had more trouble than ever playing a simple pickup game > this week due to an exhausting 90-message two-week debate on top of an > "aww, come on" on a great completed thumber pass for not throwing it > to the single most open person on the field after showing up 40 > minutes early to stand alone and practice so as not to annoy anyone, > showing ITs to a nine year old who threw some well and was the nicest > person about it I've come across.
> You're naturally a little sarcastic on a board, fine, but you can't > fathom the affect 120 raters saying "you stink" has on your *life*. I > believe I have not been any ruder than you; what remains is a > disagreement on strategy. I think it's very unfair BUT, if you don't > agree, fine, but accepting that, if there isn't a single thing I can > say to earn the right to even talk to you learn from all the people > I'm trying to impress which I've done by sifting through the sarcasm > and taking all the points into account, the only reason I came here, I > simply can't play this sport anymore.
> I'd appreciate it if you didn't mark this post with "Terrible apology; > this guy shouldn't be playing ultimate," because this isn't a board, > this is life, and very few of you would be on a team with me and talk > trash about me to my face every week. Bottom line, if someone can > upset you so much that there isn't a single permutation of characters > in which I can ask for the right to talk with you or not two people > that can say "Alright, fine, good luck," even if you think it's silly, > then you tell me, seriously, what course of action I must take over > the next years to earn the right to talk to anyone else about this > sport, because otherwise I can't play it.
> Thanks.
> Squish
> If you want to check in on my little campagin to impress all you guys > you can check squish7.com/frisbee
I know it's really lame to post but it fit really well: "Never forget that the person on the other side is human....Because your interaction is through a computer it is easy to forget that there are people "out there."...Don't attack people if you can't persuade them with your presentation of the facts....Try not to say anything to others you would not say to them in person in a room full of people." -google netiquete
Quick further challenge. If you're gonna one-star me, please copy and paste the following:
1. I don't really think you deserve to be playing this sport
2. There's really nothing you can do or say at this point where I'm going to listen to you and offer the advice you're looking for.
1) The whole "I am so deeply, personally wounded by the responses I've gotten to the six different rec.sport.disc threads I started on the same subject" tack is not going to get you anywhere.
You can't point and laugh at people's posts, make fun of people for one-starring you, call us stubborn and hidebound, vastly distort the responses you get, and then play the victim. And playing the victim is precisely what you are doing.
2) You've been treated with more respect than you've given. Saying how you really appreciate everyone's advice, and then telling them that they don't understand and lack the experience to appreciate your point, is fundamentally insincere. The reason multiple people have said, in effect, "OK, go ahead, play the way you want" is that you have made it abundantly clear that you aren't going to listen to us anyway.
I didn't get snarky with you until it became clear that not only were you not going to be convinced, but you were essentially ignoring the arguments that had been presented to you, and instead just making fun of people.
3) You've been told over and over again why you are wrong. You refuse to recognize that taking a split second to sight your target and recover balance reduces the chance of an errant throw or a defensive play. You continue to discount the possibility that many good players can switch grips and release a forehand or backhand in such a time frame, and still release the throw before the mark has a chance to set. You refuse to acknowledge that the thumber forehand is more difficult to control and increases the chance of a turnover.
4) If you're not going to believe the above points, then really, there's no point in us responding any more, because you're not going to suddenly believe us. So, to answer your closing question ("...what course of action must I take...") the answer is simple - seek out opportunities to play at a higher level, and listen to the advice of better and more experienced players than you.
Once you actually have living experience with players who can effectively move the disc quickly without using the throws you advocate, you will have a better understanding of where the rest of us are coming from.
So, again, good luck with your playing career.
On Aug 18, 7:38 pm, SquishToGo <a...@squish7.com> wrote:
> Okay, look, I had more trouble than ever playing a simple pickup game > this week due to an exhausting 90-message two-week debate on top of an > "aww, come on" on a great completed thumber pass for not throwing it > to the single most open person on the field after showing up 40 > minutes early to stand alone and practice so as not to annoy anyone, > showing ITs to a nine year old who threw some well and was the nicest > person about it I've come across.
> You're naturally a little sarcastic on a board, fine, but you can't > fathom the affect 120 raters saying "you stink" has on your *life*. I > believe I have not been any ruder than you; what remains is a > disagreement on strategy. I think it's very unfair BUT, if you don't > agree, fine, but accepting that, if there isn't a single thing I can > say to earn the right to even talk to you learn from all the people > I'm trying to impress which I've done by sifting through the sarcasm > and taking all the points into account, the only reason I came here, I > simply can't play this sport anymore.
> I'd appreciate it if you didn't mark this post with "Terrible apology; > this guy shouldn't be playing ultimate," because this isn't a board, > this is life, and very few of you would be on a team with me and talk > trash about me to my face every week. Bottom line, if someone can > upset you so much that there isn't a single permutation of characters > in which I can ask for the right to talk with you or not two people > that can say "Alright, fine, good luck," even if you think it's silly, > then you tell me, seriously, what course of action I must take over > the next years to earn the right to talk to anyone else about this > sport, because otherwise I can't play it.
> Thanks.
> Squish
> If you want to check in on my little campagin to impress all you guys > you can check squish7.com/frisbee
Belief: Peaches are perfect. Corrections: 1) many other situations where other throws are better, 2) Restricted wrist. 3) Pros can switch grips quickly. 4) Useless below your chest and to far right, etc. Obvious Points I think I've made totally ignored: 1) b/h and f/ h useless for ITs above the chest. 2) you *can* put full contact on a peach 3) overhand does not have the peach's power. I'm the only one learning anything.
You can't quote your elite experience and say well-skilled pickup is useless. I never, ever, once asked how ITs applies to pros, because that's not what I do (yet). Also, you know a lot, but have not studied a single move for a whole summer. Your statement "you won't admit you are wrong" instead of "we disagree" is horrid non-intention to be open to the slightest idea.
> 2) You've been treated with more respect than you've given.
Me>> I feel like the entire Ultimate culture is retarded. You>> Nothing like editing the wiki page so that it supports your point. Me>> No offense but I think you've all been sniffing dirty discs or something =) You>> and we just go straight down the field throwing jump thumbers, it's unstoppable! Me>> Not to be bitchy but I think it's real mature to say "your post sticks" because you disagree You>> Frank and Toad be damned, welcome to sport progression people!
My only point in "playing victim" is this, I can't take bickering with people (my problem) I'm trying to learn from, so I just want to get along. It's infathomable to try to learn from others only willing to teach through bickering, to ask how to get along, and to have that very asking itself be called idiodic.
> Okay, look, I had more trouble than ever playing a simple pickup game > this week due to an exhausting 90-message two-week debate on top of an > "aww, come on" on a great completed thumber pass for not throwing it > to the single most open person on the field after showing up 40 > minutes early to stand alone and practice so as not to annoy anyone, > showing ITs to a nine year old who threw some well and was the nicest > person about it I've come across.
> You're naturally a little sarcastic on a board, fine, but you can't > fathom the affect 120 raters saying "you stink" has on your *life*. I > believe I have not been any ruder than you; what remains is a > disagreement on strategy. I think it's very unfair BUT, if you don't > agree, fine, but accepting that, if there isn't a single thing I can > say to earn the right to even talk to you learn from all the people > I'm trying to impress which I've done by sifting through the sarcasm > and taking all the points into account, the only reason I came here, I > simply can't play this sport anymore.
> I'd appreciate it if you didn't mark this post with "Terrible apology; > this guy shouldn't be playing ultimate," because this isn't a board, > this is life, and very few of you would be on a team with me and talk > trash about me to my face every week. Bottom line, if someone can > upset you so much that there isn't a single permutation of characters > in which I can ask for the right to talk with you or not two people > that can say "Alright, fine, good luck," even if you think it's silly, > then you tell me, seriously, what course of action I must take over > the next years to earn the right to talk to anyone else about this > sport, because otherwise I can't play it.
> Thanks.
> Squish
> If you want to check in on my little campagin to impress all you guys > you can check squish7.com/frisbee
Add it up. Insult from 30 people online (even if I'm doing the same) not to mention 180 raters, and 30 friends complaining about missing *completed* passes, in a single month after massive effort a whole summer to learn something new. You could each tolerate one call of tech help but 70 hours of it over and over would strongly affect you.
On Aug 19, 2:55 pm, SquishToGo <a...@squish7.com> wrote:
> Corrections: 1) many other situations where other throws are better,
No, the contention is that a forehand or backhand is ALWAYS more controllable. Always. They are simply easier throws to control, so the margin of error on those throws will always be higher. Not sometimes, but always.
> 3) Pros can switch grips quickly.
If pros means, "lots of people who practice it", then yes. Plenty of good club players can switch grips very quickly.
> Obvious Points I think I've made totally ignored: 1) b/h and f/h > useless for ITs above the chest.
I did not ignore this at all. I have said more than once that throwing without sighting your target and getting your balance will reduce your margin of error. Hence, the so-called instant throw (which, of course, is not instantaneous) is not very useful except in a greatest situation. So, with the exception of a greatest caught up high, this "advantage" which you cite is completely insignificant.
> 3) overhand does not have the peach's power.
Sure, but nobody is using overhands/chicken wings for anything except greatest attempts. You do have a strong argument that this throw should be used more in greatest attempts.
> I'm the only one > learning anything.
I think you've made some people consider using the thumber forehand on greatest attempts.
> You can't quote your elite experience and say well-skilled pickup is > useless.
Useless for what? I'm not sure what you mean. At any rate, I haven't, wouldn't, and don't state that pickup is "useless" in general.
> I never, ever, once asked how ITs applies to pros, because > that's not what I do (yet).
Bullshit. You have stated, and continue to state on your webpage, that conventional wisdom about "IT"s is wrong and you are right. There haven't been and aren't any caveats there where you say "I only mean at the pickup level because I don't know anything about club level ultimate".
> Your statement "you won't > admit you are wrong" instead of "we disagree" is horrid non-intention > to be open to the slightest idea.
No, it's not - I'm open to plenty of new ideas. But the idea of twisting around and whipping thumber flicks for continuation throws immediately after the catch is not one of them. I am as certain that that is a bad idea as I am about just about anything in the sport.
> Me>> I feel like the entire Ultimate culture is retarded. > You>> Nothing like editing the wiki page so that it supports your > point. > Me>> No offense but I think you've all been sniffing dirty discs or > something =) > You>> and we just go straight down the field throwing jump thumbers, > it's unstoppable! > Me>> Not to be bitchy but I think it's real mature to say "your post > sticks" because you disagree > You>> Frank and Toad be damned, welcome to sport progression people!
I didn't say any of those things.
> My only point in "playing victim" is this, I can't take bickering with > people (my problem) I'm trying to learn from, so I just want to get > along. It's infathomable to try to learn from others only willing to > teach through bickering, to ask how to get along, and to have that > very asking itself be called idiodic.
You claim to want to learn from us, but when every sane poster tells you you're wrong, providing multiple reasons why, you insist they don't understand and are mistaken. Consider the possibility that YOU are the one who is "bickering".
K, I'm seriously, literally offering you any of you a $100 bet each. We find an indifferent third party to read through the posts, and 1) ask if the ratings are basically fair and non-lopsided. 2) ask which side admits more points and is willing to learn from the other. I'm deadly serious, I'm sure there are ways to work it out. If you won't put a free $100 bill in your pocket, please explain why.
On Aug 19, 2:45 pm, SquishToGo <a...@squish7.com> wrote:
> QUICK $100 !
> K, I'm seriously, literally offering you any of you a $100 bet each. > We find an indifferent third party to read through the posts, and 1) > ask if the ratings are basically fair and non-lopsided. 2) ask which > side admits more points and is willing to learn from the other. I'm > deadly serious, I'm sure there are ways to work it out. If you won't > put a free $100 bill in your pocket, please explain why.
Why? ... something about not caring about the ass of a rat... or something like that.
The premise of this bet is completely wrong, and it's indicative of your argument as a whole.
First of all, the ratings are not pats on the back. Your posts are rated low because if somebody comes to RSD to pick up some tips on how to play the game, they will see the rankings on your posts and know that it is not a trusted opinion in the ultimate community.
Your second point is to "ask which side admits more points." I love baseball. Since high school, however, i've only been able to play it at very low levels of competition... including softball. I could post on a baseball message board that i think nobody should stop at first base on a routine single to the outfield. I've had great success with this playing against low competition. The likelihood of the fielder fielding the ball cleanly, firing a good throw into 2nd base, the 2B/ SS catching the ball cleanly, applying the tag, and the umpire making the correct call is very low... at very low levels of competition. How would that message board post be received? My guess is that any respectable high school, college, minor league, or major league baseball player would give me a very low rating. Playing pick-up is great, but it's a little bit more like beer league co-ed softball than a decent club or college tournament. Back to your argument, of course you are able to "admit more points." You have more to learn.
If your feelings have been hurt, i'll take the initiative of apologizing for everyone in RSD-land. But please stop posting about this. This discussion goes nowhere and i'm sick of seeing it in the side banner as an active thread. You seem to believe that people aren't listening to you and being callous because this is an online forum. According to your profile, you live in Massacusetts. Boston Ultimate is one of the best teams in the country. Go to one of their practices, scrimmages, etc, and ask them about using "ITs."
Maybe you'll revolutionize the game. I'm all for it. But until you put your words to action, i don't plan on revolutionizing my game because somebody else claims to have revolutionized the game but isn't able to make it work in real tournament competition.
On Aug 19, 6:09 pm, Mark -Mortakai- Moran <just_morta...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 19, 2:45 pm, SquishToGo <a...@squish7.com> wrote:
> > QUICK $100 !
> > K, I'm seriously, literally offering you any of you a $100 bet each. > > We find an indifferent third party to read through the posts, and 1) > > ask if the ratings are basically fair and non-lopsided. 2) ask which > > side admits more points and is willing to learn from the other. I'm > > deadly serious, I'm sure there are ways to work it out. If you won't > > put a free $100 bill in your pocket, please explain why.
> No, the contention is that a forehand or backhand is ALWAYS
What I'm saying is wild claims like "backhand / overhand are preferable in all ways" when I've made *a few* points shows a huge initial bias that it takes paperwork to admit you had at all, ITs or not.
> good club players can switch grips very quickly.
Yet you can't say why a quarter second in a sport--the difference in being guarded or not--doesn't light a candle to "difficult pass". You can't leap from "incerases error" and then "not useful." For that you have to say "totally destroys ability to toss from one totally open man to another"
> I think you've made some people consider using the thumber forehand on > greatest attempts.
Thank you. Now, it's very natural for me to learn a ton here obviously, and to make a small dent in the opposite direction, that's balanced, but, why is *my* huge list of admissions bull and stubborn?
> that conventional wisdom about "IT"s is wrong and you are right.
BIG Q, how do you even know that I haven't played as hard as you on a team that won a summer league tournament? Anyway, I mean conventional wisdom *about pickup*. How could I possibly tell you what pro is like? I'm asking you to think down to me, assuming you can explain why the tournament I've played in isn't in your ballpark.
> I didn't say any of those things.
Come on, "you" plural. You personally claim you've all been nicer, and I say go through the threads, that's the first five rude statements in the whole thing; it's even. Debate aside, you can't state to my face "My posts deserve medals, yours are the worst anyone could post anywhere." If there's a difference, it's delusional and egotistical to extend it to shit vs gold.
> You claim to want to learn from us, but when every sane poster tells
You cannot, cannot say you're right because there are a whole ton of you. I can easily be an atheist and walk into a Christian auditorium.
"Yet you can't say why a quarter second in a sport--the difference in being guarded or not--doesn't light a candle to "difficult pass". You can't leap from "incerases error" and then "not useful." For that you have to say "totally destroys ability to toss from one totally open man to another""
Because turnovers are so costly at the elite level (what is generally discussed here) that anything that increases the error of a pass is not useful because any turnover has a good chance of leading to a break.
Yes, punting and playing zone is highly effective in college and low- level club womens ultimate -- that doesn't mean that it's something that should be looked at as an ideal.
On Aug 19, 6:40 pm, Ryan Thompson <thomp...@stanford.edu> wrote:
> "Yet you can't say why a quarter second in a sport--the difference in > being guarded or not--doesn't light a candle to "difficult pass". You > can't leap from "incerases error" and then "not useful." For that you > have to say "totally destroys ability to toss from one totally open > man to another""
> Because turnovers are so costly at the elite level (what is generally > discussed here) that anything that increases the error of a pass is > not useful because any turnover has a good chance of leading to a > break.
> Yes, punting and playing zone is highly effective in college and low- > level club womens ultimate -- that doesn't mean that it's something > that should be looked at as an ideal.
Squish is either the best poster I've seen in a long time, or woefully inexperienced at frisbee.
> that it is not a trusted opinion in the ultimate community.
But this clause doesn't include to *every single stinking post*. You're including *every* post in which I make a single, solid point, like "a peach is more powerful than an overhand." Five stars for incorrect information, and one star for a correction. Even on sarcastic remarks (either end) that are removed from the actual debate. About your clause to begin with, if this were Rec.Sports.MassConsensus, you'd be totally right. But it's marked "Frisbee." You can't take up 98% of the auditorium and shove other people out of the seats because you're tough.
> you are able to "admit more points." You have more to learn.
1) this is even on dead facts 2) I'm not a toddler. I've helped win a tournament, it's not newbie vs wizard. 3) I have some experience you don't. I can go into Harvard and say "hey, I've collected data on this type-VII mango-daisy." 3) We DO have the same experience talking about *my level*. I don't have to be brady to understand professional football, I just have to be on the team!
> this. This discussion goes nowhere and i'm sick of seeing it in the
It doesn't, I learn, and I think you learn a tiny bit. By your policy magnified, the really big guys couldn't have achieved e=mc2 or "be nice to your neighbors." And you're not annoyed cuz of a line of text, you're annoyed because of some morbid curiosity you're arguing with me.
I've *already* gone to the field and tried stuff based on your comments. How much active stuff can I do in a month?
> discussed here) that anything that increases the error of a pass is
Having a man stand in front of you while you're trying to throw a disc while dexterous people run to do the same to everyone else *massively increases chance of error.* Maybe you're right about pro! I *don't know yet*. But IF it's just well-skilled mid-range pickup and lowly league tournaments, then why couldn't this debate simply have turned into a friendly mid-level IT strategy talk 80 posts ago?
YOU: Giving the defense time to guard you and the entire field, is not significant enough to allow use of a good-but-not-great instant pass to an already open man even one in fifty throws, a maneuver that coincidentally takes double the skill and focus to master than a regular in-game throw.
On Aug 19, 8:40 pm, SquishToGo <a...@squish7.com> wrote:
> QUICK SUMMARY OF 100 POSTS
> YOU: Giving the defense time to guard you and the entire field, is not > significant enough to allow use of a good-but-not-great instant pass > to an already open man even one in fifty throws, a maneuver that > coincidentally takes double the skill and focus to master than a > regular in-game throw.
Squish: I am going to misinterpret and twist every logical and salient point made, because I cannot be wrong. VALIDATE ME!!!
> I am going to misinterpret and twist every logical and salient point
Riiiiight, because no one in 100 messages has done that over and over and over besides me. Let's start with "jump-thumber ultimate" and go from there. I'm saying this whole thing is "throwing a tiny bit quicker to an open man with a decent pass" vs "that's never ever worth it." *You* phrase it in a way that doesn't sound absurd, because I can't.
On Aug 19, 8:40 pm, SquishToGo <a...@squish7.com> wrote:
> QUICK SUMMARY OF 100 POSTS
> YOU: Giving the defense time to guard you and the entire field, is not > significant enough to allow use of a good-but-not-great instant pass > to an already open man even one in fifty throws, a maneuver that > coincidentally takes double the skill and focus to master than a > regular in-game throw.
A) the defense is always guarding the entire field. they do not set up after each catch is made. this alone is one of the best reasons not to go spraying instant throws all over the field.
2) a forehand thumber would not be considered "good" by most players. not even just those at the elite level.
III) you should always throw to the open man. you should always focus on your throws, as well as where the defenders are, and consider how to get your throw to that open person in the most succsful way possible. unfortunately the defense also knows this and will set a "trap" or use such a open person as "bait". this can lead to turnovers. turnovers lead to losses. ironically, losses make the baby jesus cry. unless you roll a saving throw, but that takes infinite skill and focus, as well as luck and a +4 stamina. no one has that. not even someone who practiced all summer and won thier local league tournament one time.
But forget all that...us meanies on the internets just won't listen to the wiki on the wall. if you can prove your ideas are successful, you could win that summer league tourney again, and we would have to eat our humble pie. Maybe you could make a video to show us how you are right in the end, just don't be throwing all your IT's to spruces and pines, they never catch anything.
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