Nalgenes are bad?
Halvey
looking on the web for resources, and I've found
http://www.mercola.com/2004/apr/7/nalgene_water.htm
http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/annieappleseedproject/
and a bit more looking leads to this journal article for which I don't
have a subscription. So, are people tossing their Nalgenes?
Bisphenol A Exposure Causes Meiotic Aneuploidy in the Female Mouse
Patricia A. Hunt, Kara E. Koehler, Martha Susiarjo, Craig A. Hodges,
Arlene Ilagan, Robert C. Voigt, Sally Thomas, Brian F. Thomas, and Terry
J. Hassold
Background: There is increasing concern that exposure to man-made
substances that mimic endogenous hormones may adversely affect mammalian
reproduction. Although a variety of reproductive complications have been
ascribed to compounds with androgenic or estrogenic properties, little
attention has been directed at the potential consequences of such
exposures to the genetic quality of the gamete.
Results: A sudden, spontaneous increase in meiotic disturbances,
including aneuploidy, in studies of oocytes from control female mice in
our laboratory coincided with the accidental exposure of our animals to
an environmental source of bisphenol A (BPA). BPA is an estrogenic
compound widely used in the production of polycarbonate plastics and
epoxy resins. We identified damaged caging material as the source of the
exposure, as we were able to recapitulate the meiotic abnormalities by
intentionally damaging cages and water bottles. In subsequent studies of
female mice, we administered daily oral doses of BPA to directly test
the hypothesis that low levels of BPA disrupt female meiosis. Our
results demonstrated that the meiotic effects were dose dependent and
could be induced by environmentally relevant doses of BPA.
Conclusions: Both the initial inadvertent exposure and subsequent
experimental studies suggest that BPA is a potent meiotic aneugen.
Specifically, in the female mouse, short-term, low-dose exposure during
the final stages of oocyte growth is sufficient to elicit detectable
meiotic effects. These results provide the first unequivocal link
between mammalian meiotic aneuploidy and an accidental environmental
exposure and suggest that the oocyte and its meiotic spindle will
provide a sensitive assay system for the study of reproductive toxins.
Pgoss
-p
Peter Washington
> Yeah, this report has been floating around for a while.
> The conclusion was made after observing results in an
> uncontrolled study (they weren't testing for this, they
> just noticed the correlation). There is an important
> difference, though, in the way the "nalgene-type" plastic
> was washed, which was with a very heavy, abrasive lab
> detergent. Most home-use detergents aren't harsh
> enough to release the chemicals at the levels shown to
> harm the lab mice.
I have no idea about the basis either of the initial reports, or the claims
in response -- just passing it along as something else to look into.
"Halvey" <h...@n0sp4m.bootysmack.org> wrote in message
news:caslcs$3s1$1...@pith.uoregon.edu...
Anne Marie Wissman
Here is a message I sent to my teammates last month about this issue:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I read [the articles discussed], and my interest was piqued. My
Nalgene bottle was sitting next to me on my desk, and I had been steadily
drinking from it all day. As a biologist who studies hormones, I've heard
a lot about "environmental estrogens" like BPA, and their effects on
reproduction and development, so the studies described weren't entirely
surprising. But I've also read a lot of science articles, and I have to
say that a lot of crappy research gets published in respected science
journals, particularly when it deals with a very media-friendly topic. So
I set off on a completely nerdy 5-hour quest through about 150 abstracts
and at least 20 journal articles to try to figure out how compelling the
relationship is between Nalgene bottles, BPA, and biological effects.
And now that I've spent all that time, and missed my workout and various
other things I was planning to get done tonight, I feel the need to burden
your inbox with my results. Feel free to stop reading now and delete this
(if you haven't already).
There is no question that BPA is what's called an "endocrine
disruptor," or a chemical that either mimics or interferes with (or both)
the normal action of hormones like estrogen and testosterone. In lab
animals and cultured cells, high doses of BPA have effects similar to
those of estrogen. They can disrupt reproductive develoment and possibly
contribute to cancer. These doses are on average about 1,000 times higher
than the highest reported level of leaching from any polycarbonate
plastic.
The big question is whether low doses of BPA (or other endocrine
disruptors), such as you might experience in your average daily
plasticized environment, also have significant harmful effects. The
answer is, as far as I can tell, "maybe." Several studies have shown an
effect of low doses on things like uterine weight and sperm count in mice.
Several other studies, in other labs, have failed to replicate those
results (using as close to the same methods as possible, and often using
larger sample sizes). Also, there's some evidence that BPA gets
metabolized (broken down and removed from the body) pretty quickly, so
we're not talking about a DDT-type accumulation effect. I'm not saying
that the original studies were bad or wrong, but science is all about
replication, i.e. if the effect isn't consistent, is it really meaningful?
In the end, I didn't come away convinced that there's a solid effect (but
that doesn't mean there isn't one).
The other big question is whether your Nalgene is leaching gobs of
BPA into your drinking water. The folks at ourstolenfuture do a nice job
of pointing out that the Lexan used in Nalgene bottles hasn't been
specifically tested, but there have been tests done on other polycarbonate
plastics like lab animal cages and baby bottles. All of those studies
have shown some amount of leaching under some conditions, particularly
when subject to high heat over long periods of time. However, one study
reports detectable leaching from brand-new polycarb animal cages at room
temperature, whereas another reports no leaching from baby bottles
subjected to typical use. Another study reports miniscule amounts of BPA
in water that was sitting in a polycarb container for *39 weeks*. Again,
the answer seems to be, "maybe."
To put this into perspective, If you take the highest BPA amounts
from the 39-week experiment above, and assume that you're getting that
much BPA in your water *every time* you fill up your Nalgene, and figure
you drink 2 bottles a day, you're still getting less than one-hundredth of
the lowest dose used in animal experiments. Now, since no one has
specifically studied Lexan, and I hope that someone does that test soon, I
don't know whether that's a realistic scenario. Regardless, I *can* tell
you that it's probably more likely to leach BPA if you repeatedly stick it
in the dishwasher versus gently rinsing it out with warm water.
By raising the scientific controversy, I don't mean to detract
from the concern, or from the hard work of the folks who are trying to
understand the effects of environmental estrogens. I believe that it is a
problem, and requires more research. And of course, it's easy for
regulatory agencies and industries to say that there isn't clear evidence
for [insert environmental concern], rather than trying to do something
about it.
As far as the Nalgene bottles go, it's not a bad idea to switch if
you care about this kind of thing - if nothing else, it will make you feel
safer, and there's a chance that it *might* make some difference to your
kids. It certainly won't hurt to switch to an HDPE or metal water bottle
(at least, not until someone finds something that leaches out of *them*).
Just because you're ingesting way more BPA from covering your food in
plastic wrap than you probably are from your Nalgene doesn't mean that
it's ok. But at this point I'm not going to freak out about the fact that
I've been drinking out of mine for years. In fact, all this typing is
making me thirsty...
yours in toxicity,
AM
P.S. I can provide references if anyone really wants them.
Larry D. Hols
> I read [the articles discussed], and my interest was piqued. My
> Nalgene bottle was sitting next to me on my desk, and I had been steadily
> drinking from it all day. As a biologist who studies hormones,
Got any good references on testosterone gel treatments? I've read the
info that came with my Androgel and am interested in reading more. I
figure that I should learn much more about this as the warning to avoid
inadvertantly exposing women, children, and small animals suggests it's
really potent stuff. (Outside of that, I'm quite pleased--Daddy's got
his mojo back.)
Larry
russ
University Fighting Gobies.
"The principle author, Dr. Patricia Hunt of Case Western Reserve
University in Cleveland, Ohio, has spent many years researching
developmental abnormalities leading to miscarriage and birth defects in
mice.
In 1998, her lab documented a sudden, inexplicable increase in a defect
known as aneuploidy, which is an abnormal loss or gain of chromosomes.
In humans, aneuploidy usually leads to miscarriage, or to disorders like
Down Syndrome, which occurs when an embryo ends up with three copies of
chromosome 21, instead of the normal two copies."
"http://barometer.orst.edu/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/02/17/40324e5d40a14?in_archive=1"
russ
Becca
> Here is a message I sent to my teammates last month about this issue:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I read [the articles discussed], and my interest was piqued. My
<snipped a really great thoughtful review on BPA>
> Just because you're ingesting way more BPA from covering your food in
> plastic wrap than you probably are from your Nalgene doesn't mean that
> it's ok. But at this point I'm not going to freak out about the fact that
> I've been drinking out of mine for years. In fact, all this typing is
> making me thirsty...
So after working for a quasi-environmental group, people got really
freaked out when they learned that Lexan was manufactured by GE. So
they all switched to glass bottles (like mason jars or old spaghetti
jars).
I wouldn't recommend this for rock climbers or other folks that put
gear at extreme risks. But I happily hiked, backpacked, played
ultimate and snorkeled class 3+ water with my glass spaghetti jar.
Usually I had other gear (wool sweater vest and a base layer minimum)
in my pack but glass was really not a problem for me. And I'm the
type of person who is guaranteed to squish my lunch in the bottom of
my backpack by carelessness.
just a thought...
~becca
Travis Finucane
"Becca" <Brad...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba67623.04061...@posting.google.com...
> freaked out when they learned that Lexan was manufactured by GE. So
> they all switched to glass bottles (like mason jars or old spaghetti
> jars).
>
What about the rubber seals on the mason jars? Even used spaghetti jars have
a little rubber ring around the edge of the cap. I think that material is a
by-product of DuPont's agent orange production. Plus, the acidic tomato in
spaghetti sauce tends to be reactive.
That's why I drink nothing but ditchwater.
Dave k.
cleansing detergents and your mouse babies wont have down syndrome
Adam
come with any water in it. I have owned many 32oz gatorade bottle's
for weeks even months, then i give them to my roomates dog, then i
recycle them. tripple threat. Although, you should be moe worried
about the sucrose syrup in gatorade than anything else in this silly
ass thread.
Ste10
J Dono
Nalgene makes hundreds of different types of 'plastic' containers each with
varying compositions and densities for various industrial & scientific uses.
They are designed to react (or to not react) with different substances and
chemicals and are all graded differently. Not surprisingly, many of these
containers are not suitable for storing food or water. The Nalgene bottles
you buy at EMS or REI are only one type of Nalgene bottle. It's probably
unlikely that any scientific research is done with consumer-grade Nalgene
bottles; don't panic just yet!
>>> Travis Finucane<tra...@finucane.org> 6/17/2004 7:28:02 PM >>>
rollinnufffatter
> Just a quick point of information:
> Nalgene makes hundreds of different types of 'plastic' containers each with
> varying compositions and densities for various industrial & scientific uses.
> They are designed to react (or to not react) with different substances and
> chemicals and are all graded differently. Not surprisingly, many of these
> containers are not suitable for storing food or water. The Nalgene bottles
> you buy at EMS or REI are only one type of Nalgene bottle. It's probably
> unlikely that any scientific research is done with consumer-grade Nalgene
> bottles; don't panic just yet!
>
>
Go to the office water cooler- see the blue tinted plastic? its
made of Polycarbonate. THe same type of plastic that Nalgenes are
made of. Sure it may have lower melt flow and higher impact but it
is the same composition as your nalgene bottle.
ANother quick point of reference:
Unless the writer is outright lying, the Nalgene Bottle in question in
the article written is made of Polycarbonate(PC). So are the ones that
you buy at your local outdoor store. Nalgene uses PC becuase it has
good high impact (wont break if dropped at certain heights) has a long
shelflife(wont break down as quickly over time from UV )and is
generally not as pourous as other types of plastic. Nalgene does make
other types, such as an ethylene based bottle that is almost opaque
and looks white but the one in the article and the ones that you
usually see at the fields are PC. perhaps Nalgene injection molds a
cheaper type of PC for industrial & scietific use, but I seriously
doubt that . Why? Becuase it is so tough to make a bottle made of PC
cheap. You may do that by using a blend of reground plastic by Using
a certain % of PC water bottle regrind with virgin material. .But you
have to make sure your the source is clean and have absolutely zero
contamination such as paper, black specs etc.. but if the regrind were
that clean then it would make the botlte just as good as the virgin
material and just as good for the consumer as it would be for
"scientific research". WHy do you think that the lab in the article
were using PC in the first place? becuase its supposed to be non
porous, good impact ancd clear - so that they can see whats in the
bottle
THe short of it is , dont scrub the inside of your Nalgene bottle
with brillo and strong detergents (like comet) it may open up pores
in the walls of the bottle where bacteria may want to hide. using a
mild soap and warm water should suffice. Nalgenes are dishwasher safe
too.
but as someone else said, just re-use your gatorade bottle a few times
and then recycle it. then repeat.
Misha
> That's why I drink nothing but ditchwater.
This must be the secret to your blazing speed!! AT LAST! Victory is mine!
finding a ditch,
misha