Ultimate-The First Forty-Four Skewering
kenneth44
possession of my own autographed copy (thanks tony) and ready to start
splitting hairs. but first, let's get the perfunctory pleasantries out
of the way...
tony, tool-shed, and joe "i'll have the egomania salad with the
nepotism on the" seidler deserve our thanks for taking on a thankless
task and doing a marginal job. bravo, gentlemen. done.
now, let's get down to it. first, it really is a history book, as in
"his"story. i didn't even have to read a page of it to know that.
consider this: molly goodwin and christine dunlap have twenty national
titles between them (it's a wonder they can still touch each other) but
only two photos. i haven't got half that many titles and my ugly mug
can be found more than that. and while each of them gets only a handful
of mentions, you can barely flip through a chapter without spotting
some reference to something stupid i once did or reading some asinine
thing i once said. come on. who wrote this thing? (oh yeah, a bunch of
men.)
on page 141, the raleigh llama is denigrated as "a ringer team ... put
together for tournament competition only." forgetting for a moment that
half the roster was people none of you has ever heard of, i have a
simple question: precisely what are all the other teams in ultimate put
together for? practices?
doing his best al gore imitation, paul greff is quoted as saying that
the best thing dog did was take bad calls out of ultimate. paul must
have misremembered himself. he did, after all, play for a team with
corky "if i didn't catch it i must have been fouled" corcoran, and that
won a world championship (2000) after a call that had every observer
not from boston alternately howling or looking away in embarrassment.
and let's not forget, before we allow the sanctimooneyous bostonians to
anoint themselves saviors of spirit, that courtesy of "the history" we
now know that saint steve and friar seeger started and drew the only
blood in the infamous 1993 national semifinal between ny and boston.
funny how that game, widely recognized as the "head-butt game" was
never referrred to as the "elbow in the head game" or the "two-fisted
lip split game." moons and seeger must have better pr agents than
cribber.
speaking of corky, for a laugh take a look at the photo on page 97. a
bunch of guys going for a hanging disc, and corky literally hurling
himself into the pile without even bothering to reach for the disc.
priceless.
but back to greff. while i can't agree that boston deserves credit for
bringing spirit back to ultimate, i do believe in giving credit where
credit is due. boston did succeed in making ultimate the most boring
spectator sport ever. at the end of the dog write up there's a brief
mention that boston, for all their success, got no media attention,
while new york was featured on espn, mtv, si, wsj, etc. is anyone
surprised? watching dog play was like watching paint dry. no wonder
they got no play. and don't cry "small market" either. fifteen years
earlier the rude boys were getting media attention because at least
they had some personality. dog? their name says it all, and their
legacy lives on.
watch video from nationals and what do you see? an endless stream of
bland as milk toast guys catching goals on other bland as milk toast
guys and then congratulating their futile d attempts while glancing
around to be sure their spirited actions are being noticed in case the
spirit award voters are nearby. don't all you automatons watch sports?
why do the oakland raiders still draw tv viewers even though they suck?
why doesn't anybody outside atlanta give a hoot about the braves? you
want attention? draw it by showing a little edge, a little grit, a
little personality, a little true spirit. how else is a short fat guy
ever going to get noticed? and let's face it, ultimate is the short fat
guy of team sports. let's start acting like it.
the maker's is running out, but it's good to be back.
Steinar
can be found more than that. and while each of them gets only a handful
of mentions, you can barely flip through a chapter without spotting
some reference to something stupid i once did or reading some asinine
thing i once said.
>>>you want attention? draw it by showing a little edge, a little grit, a
little personality, a little true spirit.
i think you`ve explained why you get more coverage than most in the
book. i`ve never seen you play but have certainly heard about you.
(admittedly, i play with a guy who used to captain graffiti back in the
day and has many stories about the nyny era).
apparently a bit of edge, grit and personality got noticed by tony and
crew.
Leonardo
That hurts. That really really hurts.
Leonardo
Shed". i'll refrain from commenting on that for now. I dont think that
was referring to me.
But I will address the thorny issue of Teens and Goodwin's presence in
the book
Teens and Goodwin were in my chapters (88 to 94, 94 to 05). There's
really very little you can say about how truly dominant and amazing
those women were for so long. I got to watch them play at 94 nationals,
97,98,99, 01 and 02. They absolutely deserve all the props out there
and if there is one major regret I have in this book, it's not getting
a ripping good Molly Goodwin shot. The pictures are out there, but hard
to find.
I had one in my sights that Grant Wise took when Molly was with the
maine-iacs. But he could never find it and the UPA didnt turn it up.
I knew there were others... but it wasnt until a month ago that I found
them. in an old issue of World Ultimate magazine (or was it Ultimate
Life?) there is an awesome question and answer article/interview
written by Molly's Godiva teammate Liz Phillips. I had read that
article when it came out (about the ONLY press on Molly you'll find
anywhere as far as I know) back in 1998 and from there remembered the
"middle school quarterback" thing where Molly had played quarterback
(now reading it, it sppears to have been younger than middle school
perhaps?)
I used that memory for the book because I could never find that article
anywhere (i thought it was in the UPA newsletter)
Anyway, we were having a tought time getting good shots of Goodwin all
along and basically had to settle for what we have, which hardly does
justice for how damned athletic Molly was and how often she could lay
out for a disc. But there in that old magazine I did find a good photo.
Alas, too late.
As for Teens, when I talked to her and to her teammates there was a big
emphasis on the Godiva family. I gor the impression that singling her
out wasn't quite how she preferred to be represented. But rather to
show the whole Godiva team and how close-knit they were. So we went
with one Teens shot of her getting a pretty sweet layout block.
If we ever find a way to print a second run and correct typos and
change minor things, i would try to get a better Goodwin shot in there.
And take out one of the KD pictures, natch.
Tony L.
kenneth44
don't know. molly and teens weren't exactly princesses of propriety
either, and neither ever had any difficulty getting noticed, except of
course by your friend the former captain of graffiti who seems to have
spent more time watching me.
wait a minute. do you guys play for sockeye?
Mike Gerics
thank goodness it wasn't me that had to write the first post about it.
worst writer in ultimate involved....ya knew it was gonna be wrong...
"kenneth44" <kp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135920800.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter Mc
It's sorta cold and windy in Mid Missouri today.
More hot air please.
Later,
Peter Mc
MDSC
Columbia, Mo.
http://ultimate.mu.org/mdsc/index.html
"If I end up in hell they'll know to put me on a baseball roster."
lyn...@hotmail.com
have some contact with Joe when he was writing it, hooked him up with
some people he was having a hard time tracking down. It's easy to
knock something down; how about telling us all what's good? And you
know, the vast majority of players are those of us you've never heard
of; I've been playing since 1980, made it to Nationals twice, still
playing hard. You may remember me as the woman who threw the disc on
Jeopardy! 6 years ago, but most of us don't even have that claim to
fame. We plug away, and get a little tired of hearing y'all bitch at
each other, especially when people have spent a lot of time and effort
to put together something like this book. It's like the people who
complain about something about tournaments, but haven't ever lent a
hand themselves.
Anyway THANKS JOE for writing this book--even though I haven't seen it.
Especially as I know you are not a player yourself.
Lynn Walters, Missourian on an Iowa team (SoyNuts rock!)
kenneth44
i disagree. if it were so easy, everyone would do it.
And you
> know, the vast majority of players are those of us you've never heard
> of;
if this is in response to my comment about the llamas roster, re-read
the post. if not, thank you for stating the obvious.
We plug away, and get a little tired of hearing y'all bitch at
> each other,
this sentence would have been better if you had continued with "but we
never get tired of bitching at you."
> Anyway THANKS JOE for writing this book--even though I haven't seen it.
clearly, since if you had you'd know that joe didn't write it.
> Lynn Walters, Missourian
obviously not the "read me" state.
Leonardo
tonka toy when you were 5 years old.
Leonardo
on Raleigh's 22 person roster while a few others I knew of.
jt
Leonardo wrote:
> for the record, at the time, I could say I personally knew 10 players
> on Raleigh's 22 person roster while a few others I knew of.
Was it really a "ringer" team though? I mean they were pretty much all
from the same area and not playing with the open or womens teams that
are considered top notch in the grand scheme of things.
In fact, I hope one of them (retired now) finally comes back to play
with his brother and I in the masters division this coming fall. You
ever read this shit ba?
jt
kenneth44
know and tell.
dhasbro
other i hoped never to read again.
did bruce "frisbee" johnson make the big book?
j...@seidler.com
on "the beginnings of michigan state ultimate." Page 30.
fredar...@hotmail.com
You are more then a great player, your also my rsd hero! Come back and
bash jerks who talk out of their butts!!
Fred
jord...@comcast.net
Parinella
cou...@gmail.com
why now all of a sudden?
Wagenwheel
>have misremembered himself. he did, after all, play for a team with
>corky "if i didn't catch it i must have been fouled" corcoran
Cocky..I mean Corky picked up with us at a tourney in Atlanta in 95.
When I blew him off cause he was shut down by Augie from Ring, he
thought he'd get in my face and yell at me for not throwing the disc to
him. I guess, being the silver back(hair)gorilla, he anticipated me to
back down. Instead, he almost got his ass whipped. Case and point of
a pussy who hid behind the spirit of the game only to blatantly break
it every chance he got. Cocky, what a cork.
Who will be the first to put the book on ebay? Maybe I'll get a copy.
j...@seidler.com
And you only think it's a "his" story because you only read the pages
with your name on them. Try this... go the index and mark every page
where your name occurs (I'm sure you've already done this). Then try
reading other pages. I know it will be hard.
mapler...@yahoo.com
"I play with a guy who used to captain graffiti back in the day and has
many stories about the nyny era"
Graffiti had a captain? And I had always thought they were a rudderless
ship.
"reading some asinine thing i once said"
Actually the most assinine quotes in the book were Cribber's. But then
again, an assinine quote is better than none at all.
By the way, some of the most "spirited" ultimate players I've ever
competed against or played with were on Kaboom, NYNY and Windy City (by
far). I"m proud to have played with all three.
MJ
mapler...@yahoo.com
all:
"The main thing we had going for us was our O put our D back on the
field - quickly" said Kenny Dobyns.
WORD!!!
MJ
kenneth44
j...@seidler.com wrote:
> And you only think it's a "his" story because you only read the pages
> with your name on them.
actually, i thought i made it pretty clear why i think it's a
"his"story, and i'm pretty sure i wrote that i came to that conclusion
without having to read any of the book.
are you from missouri?
>Try this... go the index and mark every page
> where your name occurs (I'm sure you've already done this).
no, i haven't. i don't have to. it was already done for me. that's why
they call it the index.
>Then try
> reading other pages. I know it will be hard.
what's hard is understanding how you could have read my post, seen the
variety of items i wrote about, and still be suggesting i've only read
about myself. and while we're on the subject of me, do you know that
one of your authors asked me to come to the raleigh event to speak to
the "crowd," sign books, and help sell books? when you guys stroke my
massive ego to suit your own ends, then criticize me for it afterwards
(when i've already served your purpose) it leaves me feeling cheap
(unlike your book). please don't do it anymore (unless, of course,
you're planning on giving me a rebate).
-kd
mapler...@yahoo.com
Parinella wrote:
> For once, I'm glad to have been left out.
Oops Jim, you spoke too soon. Best to have laid low, old rivalries die
hard.
Happy New Year!
Leonardo
behind almost everything to do with this book is decentralized, much
like most of Ultimate.
TL
Leonardo
if anyone actually bothered to read this far, for the record, i have no
idea what "a la mode" means. Especially since no pie has been served at
any book event. What I probably meant to write was "a la carte."
And no, i don't exactly know what the eff that is supposed to mean
either.
Justin
twentieth century when serving ice cream with pie was in style.
zas...@math.northwestern.edu
You created a dynasty and culture of athletic excellence by
dint of the force of your will, skill, and your considerable charisma.
Generations of ultimate players respect your personal
accomplishments and what you have done for the game.
Your voice carries the weight of decades at the height of
the sport. Your influence extends worldwide.
And THIS is how you choose to represent yourself? By a
tirade against people who have devoted years to a project
which may never break even? By initiating a spirit battle
from a long-dead rivalry? By standing up for the
disenfranchised "little people," i.e. the franchise known
as Molly and Teens? By disparaging other styles of winning
ultimate?
One is heartened that the sands of time have not dulled your
passion. One can fondly imagine that your pedantry in trying
to set the record straight is indicative of the perfectionism and
expectations you brought to your teams -- something most of
us did not experience first-hand. One can enjoy the armchair
view of a heated exchange.
But for a man of such vision on the field, your literary view
is verily myopic. In that great trove you deride is the collation
of thousands of names, pictures, facts, statistics, rosters,
stories, viewpoints and lore into ONE place. It is the first
significant
effort to record an oral history which would have died with
age and fuzzy memories. It will give legions of players a sense
of their sport and enrich their ultimate experience. It is a synthesis
of different writing styles. It is a massive editing task. It is a
rich
visual presentation. You have belittled these accomplishments
by overlooking them. The task of the writers need not have
been "thankless."
Criticism IS easy, because perfection is so hard.
Your legacy, which clearly is still of great concern to you, includes
the impressions of every person who ever played with, against,
or near you -- those who remain in the game and those who do not.
It also includes those whose introduction to a legend includes the
bitter invective you just released. Would that you could have spared
us, and yourself, that indiscretion!
-Eric Zaslow
rollinnufffatter
Mike Gerics
> Mike G, you are a mean and bitter man and I'm sorry someone stole your
> tonka toy when you were 5 years old.
>
---i still have my tonka toys.
no one stole them.
Leonardo
truck. I still like you though. secretly, I have a crush on you. I live
in the big city, and hicks are attractive in that cornhole way, you
know? You should come up and visit someday. I'll show how Brooklyn
plays with man-children like you.
Handy
comment?
Can't we just stick to either being happy that interesting people have
returned to RSD, hopefully spurring on some old school days where the
best players in the game used to talk trash over RSD before tourneys or
being disgusted that a hall-of-famer has come back just to harass those
involved in the sport?
As for me, I'm entertained... albeit still creeped out. Maybe it's the
tonka truck aspect.
-Handy-
p.s. I do like the book though. For someone with less knowledge of the
history it is very informative.
mapler...@yahoo.com
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face
is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who knows the great enthusiasms,
the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at best,
if he wins, knows the thrills of high achievement, and, if he fails, at
least fails daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those
cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
JFK is credited with these quotes but I'm doubtful on the second one.
Sounds more like Churchill to me.
I can't wait for the unauthorized history, Volume II "The Frisbee
Diaries: Drugs and Roadtrips". Might we even read some vivid
recountings of the annual Purple Valley tournament in that one, or the
Cornell roadtrips to Mardi Gras in the early 80's?
MJ
kenneth44
a bunch of unconvincing bs about my supposed greatness which, having
had the pleasure of competing against him, i know he doesn't feel
anywhere near so strongly about as his post suggests. but let's get
right down to the dirt, because there's an awful lot of it, and this
bitchhoe, i mean backhoe, is on an hourly rate.
> And THIS is how you choose to represent yourself?
please (and this is for everyone) spend a little less time concerning
yourself with my legacy. i'm a has-been in a never-was sport. 'nuff
said.
> By a
> tirade against people who have devoted years to a project
> which may never break even?
you're not the first person to call it a tirade. funny, it didn't feel
like a tirade when i wrote it. i think my bartender might be mixing a
little heavy. i'll take it up with me when i sober up.
you are also not the first person to imply that the very act of
choosing to take on a project that is time consuming and has no
definitive prospect of recouping one's investment should be some kind
of impenetrable shield against criticism for how the project turns out.
i just don't see it that way. first, i go to work every day in a public
high school, and no matter how much effort i expend or how hard i try
to be the best teacher i can be, just about every other day some parent
calls up and berates me for doing a lousy job of teaching his or her
child. where's my shield? where eric zaslow's impassioned (and utterly
over the top) protest on my behalf? second (and here's the connection),
i bought the book with my money, just as that parent "buys" a child's
education with tax dollars. if i don't like something about my
purchase, who is any one of you to say i don't have a right to speak
up? i have never (and i mean not even once) questioned a parent
advocating for a child, even if that advocacy leads them to speak to me
or categorize my efforts in a way i think is unfair. why? because it's
part of the job, and if i want another i know where the door is. nobody
forced these guys to write and publish a book. it was their choice.
once they were done they chose to sell me a copy, and now i've chosen
to point out a few things i don't like about it. you want to point out
something you like about it, be my guest. post away. but do me a favor
and get off my back.
> One is heartened that the sands of time have not dulled your
> passion. One can fondly imagine that your pedantry in trying
> to set the record straight is indicative of the perfectionism and
> expectations you brought to your teams -- something most of
> us did not experience first-hand. One can enjoy the armchair
> view of a heated exchange.
because i don't know what definition you're using for pedantry, i'll
assume you mean the overemphasis on minor details. after all, no one
who writes like you do could accuse anyone of an excessive display of
learning.
for more than twelve years the 1993 semifinal between boston and ny was
called "the head-butt" game in reference to a blow thrown by cribber
well into the second half when the damage had long been done. the game
has been held up for all these years as a symbol of how the evil empire
that was new york had tarnished the sport and bullied poor boston into
submission in the process. almost no one outside of a few people knew
that it was mooney who started it all and jeremy who threw its most
vicious and bloodiest blow. and for all those years i said nothing,
while steve was held up as the paragon of spirited ultimate day after
day on this very forum. one day, i figured, steve'll come clean. nope.
so now the truth is out and i'm pleased, and you call that pedantry?
let's just agree to disagree on that one.
that day in 1993 i vowed never to play with new york again, and i
didn't, not even at worlds the next summer. the next two years i was
involved in two of the best games it has ever been my pleasure to
compete in. both were in the semis of nationals, both were against
boston, and both were clean, spirited, intense games with precious few
calls. but paul greff actually has a massive enough ego to claim that
dog took bad calls out of ultimate all by themselves. hogwash. and this
is not a "spirit battle from a long dead rivalry." i had never heard
that before, and even now i can't believe he said something so absurd.
> But for a man of such vision on the field, your literary view
> is verily myopic. In that great trove you deride is the collation
> of thousands of names, pictures, facts, statistics, rosters,
> stories, viewpoints and lore into ONE place. It is the first
> significant
> effort to record an oral history which would have died with
> age and fuzzy memories. It will give legions of players a sense
> of their sport and enrich their ultimate experience. It is a synthesis
> of different writing styles. It is a massive editing task. It is a
> rich
> visual presentation. You have belittled these accomplishments
> by overlooking them. The task of the writers need not have
> been "thankless."
i don't think i overlooked them. i think the title of my post made it
very clear what people would find if they chose to read it. i never
purported to be writing an unbiased review, nor can anyone familiar
with my "different writing style" have been all that surprised by what
they found.
>
> Criticism IS easy, because perfection is so hard.
ok, confucius. but i still disagree. i was critical of the book, and
you've been critical of me. i'll bet you a set of legs to turn the book
into a nightstand that people have been way more amused by my criticism
than yours. it isn't easy, i just make it look that way. that's why
it's art.
>
> Your legacy, which clearly is still of great concern to you, includes
> the impressions of every person who ever played with, against,
> or near you -- those who remain in the game and those who do not.
> It also includes those whose introduction to a legend includes the
> bitter invective you just released. Would that you could have spared
> us, and yourself, that indiscretion!
again, save yourself the trouble of agonizing over my legacy. and while
you're at it, spare us all the spectacle of you sitting on your high
horse pronouncing my sharing my opinion of a book i bought and have
every right to criticize an indiscretion. you want to see an
indiscretion? take another look at this load of self-righteous,
condescending tripe you're serving up. yikes!
>
> -Eric Zaslow
would anyone else willingly sign his name?
-kd
Garrett Dyer
wrote:
>for the record, at the time, I could say I personally knew 10 players
>on Raleigh's 22 person roster while a few others I knew of.
One of those 12 that you didn't know had to be Al Paca, who was easily
the Llama's MVP, but certainly not a ringer in any sense of the word.
Few know the true story of his year with as a Llama, his only Club
season. He was from the mountains, had shaggy hair, was long-legged,
and he spit more than usual. Most who didn't know him thought he had
a rather ornery temperment. He wasn't able to make the trips to
nationals and worlds in that single magical year, but he was there
with us in spirit.
We all miss him and hope he's doing well, wherever he is.
tafin...@gmail.com
> though they suck?
The Commitment to Excellence.
tafin...@gmail.com
persimmon (I use fuyu) to the filling. And don't forget dabs of butter!
Leonardo
"to imply... that the very act of
choosing to take on a project that is time consuming and has no
definitive prospect of recouping one's investment should be some kind
of impenetrable shield against criticism for how the project turns out
....
i just don't see it that way."
and here:
" if i don't like something about my purchase, who is any one of you
to say i don't have a right to speak up?"
and here:
"nobody forced these guys to write and publish a book. it was their
choice.
once they were done they chose to sell me a copy, and now i've chosen
to point out a few things i don't like about it."
is accurate
Tony
Paul P
> p.s. I do like the book though. For someone with less knowledge of the
> history it is very informative.
I like it too, but then I wasn't there and didn't know much of this
stuff either.
Like it or not, unless Kenny or someone else writes their own book,
this is the history that is going to stick. For those of us who weren't
there and don't know the book will shape our perceptions of the origins
and history of the sport. The best part is that now a history of the
sport is now written down and is, I'd bet, more factually accurate than
not. Some may find flaws, but again, for those of us who weren't there
at least we get the big picture.
Frankly, I like reading KD's counterpoint, aggressively made though it
may be. It reminds me that the history we read about in books isn't
always the perception shared by all.
Is Kenny Dobyns the Howard Zinn of ultimate?
Paul P
(only been playing ten years)
Mike Gerics
---your writing has never been good.....and it continues on as such.
regretably....most know you as one of the only 'writers' of ultimate.
sad....
you have always had a thing for me....and i don't know why....
but your cute writing...still keeps you a pussy.
Wagenwheel
In KD's first post, he commended the writers and publishers for taking
on a thankless task and doing a mediocre job, or did you miss that
part?
My wife ordered the book, much to my shagrin. She is in it as the 1992
Collegiate Champs. I told her I have the same picture, she doesn't
ahve to pay $50 for it, but she didn't listen.
If you know Ken, which I'm sure you do, Ken could give a shit about
Legacy. Put Kenny on a Montana street corner and see if Cowboy Bill
knows of his Ultimate accomplishments. Having lost in the finals of
two collegiate national championships, I am not haunted by the losses,
because nobody, outside of the miniscule frisbee populace, cares. I
will read the book my wife bought. I will post my sophomoric review
and then have my uncle (Stewart Priddy) fire you from Northwestern's
math department for being too smart for your own good. At one point
(and still might be) he was chair of the Northwestern Math Dept, but
never felt the need to try to impress others with his expansive
knowledge of the english language.
j...@seidler.com
History Book was to stimulate discussion about the history and
traditions of the sport including the teams and people who made it. I
had never worked on a history book before (or any other type of book
for that matter), and it is clear that everyone's perspective is
different. What is one person's best played game is another's worst
spirited game. It comes with writing about history.
It is no surprise that NYNY players may have a different perspective
than DoG players; and I suspect both are a bit correct and both are a
bit off. I do think however, that the book represents what the majority
of Ultimate players would probably believe is appropriate in describing
the events from a balanced perspective (which is difficult and probably
impossible to be perfect).
I would also like to commend the writers (I was the publisher but had
nothing to do with the content) in their balanced coverage of women and
men in the book. I am proud of how much history is documented about the
women. I learned a lot and became very impressed with the
accomplishments of women over the decades. I had pretty much only
watched open games (usually watching my son's team) and had not learned
very much about the women. But as I said on the back cover of the book,
it was women who stimulated me to create the book.
zas...@math.northwestern.edu
Gadzooks! I was so flushed with emotion that my pencil-thin neck
swelled to fill the 13-inch collar of my pressed Oxford shirt!
The distention jarred my bowtie askew! Then I stubbed my toe
dismounting my high horse to reach for the thesaurus to prepare
my rejoinder. (Alas, no entry for "Tool Shed.") I scribbled
so furiously that the suede elbow patch of my corduroy jacket
became threadbare! Finally, the riposte-filled response,
laden with ad hominem attacks and unchecked emotion, was ready
for the public. Then Mooney ate it.
ABL
mapler...@yahoo.com
this was in a history book, too!!
My point (almost) seems to have came across in a less subtle fashion in
a later post anyway, when Paul P said "Like it or not, unless Kenny or
someone else writes their own book, this is the history that is going
to stick".
And another thing:
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate,
contrived and dishonest--but the myth--persistant, persuasive and
unrealistic."
mapler...@yahoo.com
bostonians to
anoint themselves saviors of spirit".
Funny, I just can't remember a game in the Boston NY series where Moons
called a plethora of fouls and then gave up in exasperation even as his
every step and pivot resulted in a mugging. But then again I only
played in most of them from 1989-1993. Maybe something suddenly changed
in 1994. I can just imagine the poor tortured Mooney soul, torn between
calling fouls and giving his team a better chance at winning the game,
or failing to call fouls and losing with his dignity (in the eyes of
his team and the UPA) and the spirit of the game intact. I'm sure Steve
didn't really care as much about winning as he did about the spirit of
the game back then, and the sport is all the better for it. (?)
However, if I were on his team and he refused to call blatant fouls in
an important game and we lost by one or two goals, I'd never forgive
him.
Or maybe he really was covered well? Maybe NY didn't beat Boston all
those years because we fouled Moons on every step and pivot and throw.
Maybe our defense was great, and took Boston's best players out of the
game? Maybe some day the history books will write about the greatest
defense ever assembled, and how it crushed and humbled the best offense
ever assembled? Maybe.....
But thanks anyway for clarifying for those younger players who weren't
there, and must read the hogwash about how the New York defense wasn't
really that great and cheated to win, that an inadvertant arm bump on
the follow-through after catching a goal was enough for two of the most
celebrated spirit-loving Bostonians ever (according to popular
mythology) to engage in retaliatory pushing and even strike blows on
the evil arm bumper.
"bc we were sick of NYNY pushing us around"
Code for we were sick of being shut down by NYNY's GREAT defense?
Cribber's headbutt was inexcusable. Joey G deserved nothing of the
sort.
MJ "Crochety Old Zontal "
Wagenwheel
Dorrance, the greatest womens soccer coach in History, said that it
wasn't that his team was that much better than all of the other teams,
but that their style of play was more aggressive while staying within
the rules of the game, and that other womens soccer teams were
ill-prepared to deal with their intensity.
Since observers were few and far between back in the day, the
subjective foul calling system in place at the time led to many
disputed calls, stoppages, and ugliness. I would definitely say that
NY's D, (with Windy City) a close second as the most intense D I ever
had the unfortunate pleasure of playing against.
Tim
made a play against them it was worth something (to me that is the heart of
spirit-they gave enough respect to the game to play hard just about all the
time). They were physical but would let you get physical with them too.
They were intense so they argued vehemently which could be a hassle. They
also weren't afraid to call the phantom break mark backhand foul, which was
also a hassle. But I liked playing them more than anyone else for the
reasons i mentioned above.
"Wagenwheel" <ewagen...@ec.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1136835713.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
kenneth44
js...@comcast.net wrote:
> Anyway, I was standing _right_ next to Mooney in 1993 during the
> incident that you are debating. I've kept quiet until now bc I pretty
> much hate this forum, but.... You Hit Him. Period.
for the record, i have no doubt you rememver it this way. more's the
pity. you should have stayed quiet.
there are only two people who know what happened, and you aren't one of
them.
after the incident, before the next pull was thrown, i stood on the
field in front of boston's o line with my lip bleeding (you wouldn't
have seen this since you play d) and refused to leave the field until
moons admitted to jeremy that he had started it by hitting me first. he
did admit it. later he told me he "thought" i was going to hit him.
your recollection of events doesn't agree with what steve and i
experienced, but i'm sure you're right and we're both wrong.
that or you're wrong. you decide.
So yeah, Jeremy
> drew first blood, but Steve did not hit you first.
ask steve. he hit me first. he admitted it then. he admitted it later.
i'm sure he'll admit it now. and jeremy didn't draw first blood; he
drew the only blood. i'll never forget his face when steve told him (on
the line before the pull) that he had hit me first and that jeremy's
"retaliation" was therefore totally out of line. it was a bad day for
everyone, but you're wrong, jeff. just plain wrong.
sorry. i guess you don't get to decide after all.
Parinella
maplerowf...@yahoo.com wrote:
> But thanks anyway for clarifying for those younger players who weren't
> there, and must read the hogwash about how the New York defense wasn't
> really that great and cheated to win, that an inadvertant arm bump on
It's certainly possible for the defense to be great and to cheat. You
yourself wrote recently about how cool your team was to foul on the
mark (I am paraphrasing only slightly).
> Cribber's headbutt was inexcusable. Joey G deserved nothing of the
> sort.
Joey was the instigator in that instance, which is perhaps why the
Boston team didn't feel compelled to rush the field and knock over
Cribber as we had in flooring poor defenseless Kenny. We were also
down by a lot, but I don't think most of us felt that the game was over
yet. A headbutt was uncalled for, but so was Joey's laughing in
Cribber's face at his having a call overturned by the Observers.
mapler...@yahoo.com
split lip" game.
Holding your ground as a marker and allowing contact which is initiated
by a thrower rather than move or yield if he tries to throw or pivot
into you to break your mark, especially down the line, is definitely
cool. Your paraphrasing of this point is quite interesting, but it does
suit your needs.
The thing that riles me most is now that we're doing this retrospective
on great ultimate teams and games (thanks to Joe Seidler) the New York
(and at times Windy City) defense is at times being portrayed, or
perhaps insinuated, as one that cheated to win, rather than being given
its due. Seems to be only the Boston players so far who are spewing
this propaganda though. Why the sour grapes after all these years? Do
you really think New York's defense had to cheat to beat Boston, or any
other top team? Should we just forfeit the UPA and World titles now?
I guess we're going to have to reassemble the teams for the 2007
Masters division and have at it.
P.S.
The game is never over when you're down by a lot.
Parinella
mapler...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Damn sorry I missed the infamous "headbutt", errr I mean the "elbow and
> split lip" game.
It is funny how a headbutt trumps a split lip.
> Holding your ground as a marker and allowing contact which is initiated
> by a thrower rather than move or yield if he tries to throw or pivot
> into you to break your mark, especially down the line, is definitely
> cool. Your paraphrasing of this point is quite interesting, but it does
> suit your needs.
Here is your quote, from the thread "Marking...point blocks":
"Some might argue we were a tad too aggressive, but we were wagubg war,
after all.
In general, the others I can think of pertaining to mark in a man to
man defense are:
1. Hold your ground and make contact if necessary.
...."
----
So, there are two things that stand out in this excerpt. "Waging war",
where all is fair in love and war, and "make contact if necessary." The
rest of your post describes honest marking, and I know you to be a fair
player, but I really don't think you were clear then at describing the
contact as something that an overaggressive thrower will initiate and
that a good marker should accept.
> The thing that riles me most is now that we're doing this retrospective
> on great ultimate teams and games (thanks to Joe Seidler) the New York
> (and at times Windy City) defense is at times being portrayed, or
> perhaps insinuated, as one that cheated to win, rather than being given
> its due.
I would say that this has been a fairly popular perception dating back
to the day of New York (and Windy City). Of course it's going to rile
you. And the criticism takes the form of "why do they feel like they
have to cheat when they're already so damn good?"
Seems to be only the Boston players so far who are spewing
> this propaganda though.
I was going to bring this up the last time you mentioned it, but what
are you talking about? Zagoria and Leonardo are hardly Boston cronies
(although Zagoria is a WesWiller with Mooney and Leonardo still has a
mancrush on Forch), and certainly not part of the inner circle of the
UPA.
> Why the sour grapes after all these years? Do
> you really think New York's defense had to cheat to beat Boston, or any
> other top team? Should we just forfeit the UPA and World titles now?
This topic has come up right now because Kenny brought it up in
response to the Ultimate History Book. I have frequently beaten the
dead horse of "there is too much contact in ultimate" over a period of
years, with many recent posts elsewhere on this subject, some brought
on by my current experiences, so it's nothing new for me. And don't
worry, my objectivism has been questioned. And one of my teammates in
2005 wrote perhaps the single most objectionable opinion piece ever
about how to play the game. So there.
I am quoted in the book saying, "We were tired of having the feeling of
being bullied around by some of the NY players and so we adopted our
own bullying tactics. That attitude blew up in our faces." As Mr.
Dobyns has suggested, anyone could have heard this opinion by getting
me a beer at any frisbee party since then, if they could manage to sit
through the dreaded strategy talk.
> I guess we're going to have to reassemble the teams for the 2007
> Masters division and have at it.
Are canes legal?
> P.S.
> The game is never over when you're down by a lot.
Well, it sure seems like it sometimes.
mapler...@yahoo.com
Objectivism is something I can't seem to accomplish either, but someone
has to come to poor defenseless Kenny's defense.
I was trying to add a flavor of realism to the no contact marking
purity that is the ideal and maybe even rationalize a bit. You're
right that I was not in line by saying "make contact" and corrected
that in a subsequent post in the same thread.
I think there were a decent amount of fair players and play on both
sides, and for the most part cooler heads prevailed in our games,
despite all the right ingredients for combustion. I always will and
still do believe that the line separating our two teams for a period of
6-7 years was razor thin and will always have the utmost respect for
Boston and the way you guys competed against us.
I'll buy you that beer this Spring at Easterns and perhaps I can learn
a bit about strategy from a Master in the process.
Cheers
Matty
P.S.
I'm just trying to goad you into joining the Masters division so you
will keep playing even when you need a cane like the rest of us over
40's.
I'll see your headbutt and raise you an infamous groin kick (sorry
Skip).
dar
"ok, confucius. but i still disagree. i was critical of the book, and
you've been critical of me. i'll bet you a set of legs to turn the book
into a nightstand that people have been way more amused by my criticism
than yours. it isn't easy, i just make it look that way. that's why
it's art."
--------------------
kenny, i'm right there with ya...i don't care about your legacy. but
what i do care about is gettin' my hands on one of these nightstands.
name a price and i'll make you an offer. hekc, with my marketing
tactics, we could fund team usa the next go-round.
dar.
Luke Smith
easterns)... or am i just imagining that i saw that. maybe there was
no punching... just... anyway, was anyone there?
so there's the headbutt, the groin kick, the split lip, the karate kick
down wilmington way, the spittle, uh... ahhh yes, the 'pummelling' of
san antonio (was that sandiego v. randalls... or something?)...
happy mlk day!
more stories! more stories!
dar
but never felt the need to try to impress others with his expansive
knowledge of the english language.
------------
cause he was a numbers guy? why not use the tools you brought tot he
game? is there naythign wrong with that? who cares if you don't
understand every word -- you likely got the point. i'm alright with
duders usin' words they know and don't figure their tryin' to be too
smart for their britches. it's their britches -- they can shit in
them, wear them to church, use big words int hem....or for fuks sake,
do all three. let me not further digress (steer off into another
direction that may be irrelevant ((or have little to do with what i was
talkin' about a minute ago))
dar.
mapler...@yahoo.com
"I really don't think you were clear then at describing the contact as
something that an overaggressive thrower will initiate and
accept"
The followup to my statement "hold your ground and make contact" is
copied below because I'm sure nobody is fact checking your statement
above but accepting it just like the story of the headbutt game wasn't
fact-checked. You can see that what I said was quite accurately
paraphrased as "my team is cool because we foul on the mark".
Admittedly, I could have been more clear in my description.
Previous rsd post unparphrased:
"I apologize. I think I should have said that the marker should "allow
contact" instead of "make contact". My bad. The point I was trying to
make was that if you establish your ground as a marker, don't move when
the offense tries to break it. Hold your ground, allow them to pivot
into you, or throw into your arm if they are going to. I see so many
defenders give up good position because they are trying to avoid
contact initiated by the offense. This will likely result in a foul
call (often incorrectly) by the offensive player but once you've held
your ground and do not let them break by throwing or pivoting directly
into you and assuming that you'll move, you have made the thrower start
to consider a strong side throw and think twice about trying to break
your mark again. As far as the no-contact utopia that you envision,
there is theory and then there is the actual game. If you are a handler
in this game, you can expect to be jostled a bit by a serious defender
at times as you run or throw, especially in an important game. I'll try
to avoid advocating the defense making contact in future posts. "
scoop
"Tip of the week #6 to follow later this week.
Here's a cute little Jon Gewirtz/Jordan Haskell tale from Boulder a
couple years ago. NYNY was still in their run at the top, but had
shown an occasional chink in their armor, and for some reason, Boston
was beginning to develop its own attitude, so we would have these
battles for the universe every few weeks or so. Anyhoo, we're at
Boulder in yet another tight game, and Jeremy Seeger gets the disc a
yard outside the goal line with Jon G. covering him. Jeremy has a
goal cutter, so Jon pretty much tackles him, wrapping up as much of
his body as possible. Somehow, Jeremy's throwing wrist can still
pivot, and he wrists off a three yard pass just before he hits the
ground, and we score the goal despite an outstanding defensive effort.
At this point, Jordan begins to scream, "You don't have to play like
this. You're the best in the game. Why do you do that stuff? That's
BS. There's no reason for you to do that." Jon replies, "Yeah, OK,
Jordan. I'll never do it again." Well, having heard that, our
sideline erupts, "Jordan! You're a hero! You've converted Jonny! Hip
hip, hooray! Hip hip, hooray!" And we rushed the field, lifted
Jordan to our shoulders, and carried him off the field.
Jim "that story was essentially true except for some slight writer's
embellishment" Parinella"
jt
Luke Smith wrote:
> could someone chime in here about 'the brawl' (ecu v. uncw,
> easterns)... or am i just imagining that i saw that. maybe there was
> no punching... just... anyway, was anyone there?
Uhm, well, there was easterns, ultimax and of course semis at natties
that year. Take your pick. I don't think there were ever any actual
punches thrown but I do recall some full body slams (at least at
ultimax). I seem to recall a couple of individuals involved but refuse
to name em here as we are going to be possible teammates in the masters
division this fall. Ah, the joys of nc ultimate. Kick each others
asses during the day and become best buds at night.
jt
Parinella
All-righty then. Let's move on.
Garrett Dyer
>I don't think there were ever any actual punches thrown
Mike G smacked Josh Poucher (?) at the WUFF War in '97. I believe
Mike described it more of a slap than a punch, though...
jt
but that wasn't ecu vs uncw. must of been in the fall as i do not
remember this.
jacob...@hotmail.com
Could we please move away from the mid-90's Carolina thread, and get
back to the old-school Boston-NY guys talking smack?
What about the time that Pat King took a shit in the disc in the
endzone at Easterns in '90 (or was it "91)?
Garrett Dyer
> Could we please move away from the mid-90's Carolina thread, and get
>back to the old-school Boston-NY guys talking smack?
Sorry to discuss topics that *you* don't want to read about.
> What about the time that Pat King took a shit in the disc in the
>endzone at Easterns in '90 (or was it "91)?
You're right, that's a *much* better topic.
What are you...a fecalpheliac?
Wagenwheel
exactly?
---------------------------
Stu is my Mom's brother in law and Forrest is my Aunt. I don't know
who Molly is unless Molly is the Dog, which I think is possible. Stu
is a North Carolina boy.
Wagenwheel
mapler...@yahoo.com
ceremonial celebration called the Swirl, perhaps invented by Mike
Nevins?, where one places the disc on the ground and squats over, with
hips undulating in a circle, as if topping of an ice cream cone at the
dairy queen.
Unless Pat took a literal crap in the disc, which if true, I'm sorry I
missed.
What are you, a fecalphobic?
Another "Crappy" Cheating New Yorker
Mike Gerics
> Mike described it more of a slap than a punch, though...
---not even smacked.
two handed forward thrust to remove him from close proxemity(sp?)
mapler...@yahoo.com
beatty
<tafin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136361339....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> why do the oakland raiders still draw tv viewers even
>> though they suck?
>
> The Commitment to Excellence.
>
mapler...@yahoo.com
successful with an orange julius.
Hey wait, wasn't their logo a devil with red horns at one time? well
then the answer is yes!
Peter Mc
later,
Peter Mc
MDSC
Columbia, Mo.
http://ultimate.mu.org/mdsc/index.html
http://www.thisisultimate.com
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:25:22 -0000
From: "jogray80910"
Subject: Symposium on Civility in Sports & Society
-----------------------
Date: Thu Jan 12 09:43:42 PST 2006
From: "Skye Arthur-Banning" <Skye.Arth...@HEALTH.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Symposium on Civility in Sports and Society
With multiple incidents involving pro athletes, young athletes and
their parents, and coaches involved in poor behavior, Clemson
University is hosting a two day International symposium on sport and
civility.
[April 11-12, 2006. Clemson is in S.Carolina http://www.clemson.edu/]
Examples of speakers include: Levon Kirkland (2 time NFL all pro
linebacker), Dan Doyle (Institute for International Sport), Ron
Stratten (NCAA Vice-President), Paul Melia (The Canadian Center for
Ethics in Sport), and Dan Olweus (University of Bergen, Norway).
We also have a few scholarships available to any graduate students who
might be interested in doing a poster presentation of their research
which would cover some costs of transportation and travel.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact the symposium
chair Kinly Sturkie at dk...@clemson.edu, or myself at
sar...@clemson.edu. We hope to see you there!
Skye Arthur-Banning, PhD
Clemson University
Parks, Recreation, and Tourism Management
864-656-2206