Remember that time that you decided it would be SUPER COOL to make up a dance to perform at Centex. Remember when it was the dumbest idea you've ever had. I do.
If women's ultimate is ever going to be considered a legitimate and competitive sport, you need to stop doing this fucking shit. Honestly. The dance-off at Centex was a huge set-back for women's ultimate and it was the worst thing I've ever had to watch. While the men were playing a showcase game, women were doing the most disgusting, idiotic shit ever. HEY, LET'S GRIND ON EACH OTHER and maybe make out. Awesome.
Women's ultimate is already seen as a joke by a lot of people. When we decide that a display of how many sex positions we can throw into a Soulja Boy song is an indication of our athletic ability, we fucking lose. I couldn't believe that so many teams didn't have a problem with this showcase of what women's ultimate is about.
Yeah, women are supposed to be more "spirited", but sacrificing our dignity as athletes and memorizing some shitty, middle school moves instead of practicing our ACTUAL sport is revolting. I'm honestly appalled. It was embarrassing for me to associate myself with women's ultimate when girls wearing leotards and sports bras were touching each other's butts for an audience.
It's great that women's teams enjoy getting to know each other outside of competition in a way that is unique to women's ultimate, but the Centex dance-off was a ridiculous attempt.
Seriously. I couldn't watch. I justify my athleticism through my play and not through taking off my clothes and dancing to Destiny's Child.
> Remember that time that you decided it would be SUPER COOL to make up > a dance to perform at Centex. Remember when it was the dumbest idea > you've ever had. I do.
> If women's ultimate is ever going to be considered a legitimate and > competitive sport, you need to stop doing this fucking shit. > Honestly. The dance-off at Centex was a huge set-back for women's > ultimate and it was the worst thing I've ever had to watch. While the > men were playing a showcase game, women were doing the most > disgusting, idiotic shit ever. HEY, LET'S GRIND ON EACH OTHER and > maybe make out. Awesome.
> Women's ultimate is already seen as a joke by a lot of people. When > we decide that a display of how many sex positions we can throw into a > Soulja Boy song is an indication of our athletic ability, we fucking > lose. I couldn't believe that so many teams didn't have a problem > with this showcase of what women's ultimate is about.
> Yeah, women are supposed to be more "spirited", but sacrificing our > dignity as athletes and memorizing some shitty, middle school moves > instead of practicing our ACTUAL sport is revolting. I'm honestly > appalled. It was embarrassing for me to associate myself with women's > ultimate when girls wearing leotards and sports bras were touching > each other's butts for an audience.
> It's great that women's teams enjoy getting to know each other outside > of competition in a way that is unique to women's ultimate, but the > Centex dance-off was a ridiculous attempt.
> Seriously. I couldn't watch. I justify my athleticism through my > play and not through taking off my clothes and dancing to Destiny's > Child.
Hey let it be known, that "make out" you speak of was just a peck!
And, get over yourself, stop caring so much about what other people think, and have a good time. Ultimate isn't supposed to be intense 100% of the time, thats the beauty of it. Go play soccer if thats what you want.
On Mar 28, 10:44 pm, Earmuffs <Ultimatesmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey let it be known, that "make out" you speak of was just a peck!
> And, get over yourself, stop caring so much about what other people > think, and have a good time. Ultimate isn't supposed to be intense > 100% of the time, thats the beauty of it. Go play soccer if thats what > you want.
> -Shannon O'Malley > UW Element #11
Unsigned thread starter, when a baller on a top 5 college team and a top 2 club women's team says your assessment is crap, that hurts bad. Meanwhile, way to rep dancing, "pecking" and just plain killin it, Shannon.
I didn't happen to see said dance-off, but did hear about it and wondered about the men playing a showcase game at the same time... I think the whole idea of the 'dance-off' for only the women is questionable, I would have preferred to hear that the dance-off was open to and included men's teams while the showcase included a women's game. I don't think that this thread starter is harping on 'people wanting to have a good time' but bringing up an important issue. And I do think that when one of the most competitive college tournaments of the year decides to throw in an element such as this dance-off (in the manner it did..ie. separating the mens display of athleticism and the womens display of ?whatever you want to call it?) it IS a step backward for women's ultimate. I would propose that such an event is better suited for a tournament such as Fool's Fest or some other laid back tournament where such shenanigans ARE completely fun and the men participate too, thus eliminating a sexist perception. And I'm quite frankly appalled that I am the first person to respond to this thread in (relative) support of the original statement. Are ultimate players (men and women alike) really so uneducated about sexism as that, or just plain apathetic about the progress of women's ultimate? Either case is unfortunate.
Plain and simple. The dance-off for women being held at the same time as the showcase for men (and being sex exclusive) wasn't the best idea. IF our goal as female ultimate players is respect and growth of our division.
On Mar 29, 12:44 am, Earmuffs <Ultimatesmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey let it be known, that "make out" you speak of was just a peck!
> And, get over yourself, stop caring so much about what other people > think, and have a good time. Ultimate isn't supposed to be intense > 100% of the time, thats the beauty of it. Go play soccer if thats what > you want.
> -Shannon O'Malley > UW Element #11
If caring about what other people think was something I was concerned with, I would have forced my team to get into 80's dancewear and pretend to have sex with each other to entertain a crowd of people probably. Putting the type of constraint on ultimate is ridiculous. Way to set up a sport that will never be able to surpass a certain point. It will be awesome in the future when we can't move beyond "having a good time" because we don't want to be too intense.
> On Mar 29, 12:44 am, Earmuffs <Ultimatesmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hey let it be known, that "make out" you speak of was just a peck!
> > And, get over yourself, stop caring so much about what other people > > think, and have a good time. Ultimate isn't supposed to be intense > > 100% of the time, thats the beauty of it. Go play soccer if thats what > > you want.
> > -Shannon O'Malley > > UW Element #11
> If caring about what other people think was something I was concerned > with, I would have forced my team to get into 80's dancewear and > pretend to have sex with each other to entertain a crowd of people > probably. Putting the type of constraint on ultimate is ridiculous. > Way to set up a sport that will never be able to surpass a certain > point. It will be awesome in the future when we can't move beyond > "having a good time" because we don't want to be too intense.
ps- was this contest a 'official' tournament event scheduled by Cultimate? If so, that is quite fucked up. If it was something more spontaneous or cooked up by a few women's teams for fun, then original poster needs to take a chill pill.
> Plain and simple. The dance-off for women being held at the same time > as the showcase for men (and being sex exclusive) wasn't the best > idea. IF our goal as female ultimate players is respect and growth of > our division.
The dance-off was hilariously funny and entertaining. After a couple of minutes, there were more people watching the dancing than the actual showcase game. Full team choreography does not look easy to perform. The Hodags fully support this endeavor and will be putting together their own routine for nationals.
Women's ultimate will continue to be seen as illegitimate if we keep allowing shit like this to happen at our tournaments. You can tell me to chill out about it, but if people continue to be completely unconscious and unaware of how we're perpetuating the way our sport is perceived, nothing will ever change. Women have to work twice as hard to be taken seriously as athletes as it is and it's really fucking hard to try to defend our athleticism when you're watching girls riding each other, however "funny" or "entertaining" it is. Seriously guys, gender constructs, come on. I understand that my sarcasm may come across as slightly biting, but this is such a ridiculous thing that I'm not all that concerned. I was honestly embarrassed for women's ultimate at Centex; people need to think about what they're doing and how it affects our sport. Call me irrational, but I'm looking out for the legitimacy of women's ultimate. Dancing like middle schoolers is doing nothing but making women ultimate players look ridiculous.
On Mar 29, 12:47 pm, wiggity <wigg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ps- was this contest a 'official' tournament event scheduled by > Cultimate? If so, that is quite fucked up. If it was something more > spontaneous or cooked up by a few women's teams for fun, then original > poster needs to take a chill pill.
I apologize for speaking out of turn if I'm wrong, but I was told this was an official tournament event. That is, the women's teams were told WELL in advance that there would be a dancing competition and that they should all choreograph something. I agree with you, Wiggity: had it been something spur-of-the-moment then that'd be unoffensive but it seems at least a little strange that someone sat down and thought this out and still felt it was a good idea.
I would have posted earlier but, like Holly Czuba I only heard about this second-hand so I assumed some people that were actually there would have posted already in support of Kari's original point. And you know what that tells me? For all the shit people give Todd Leber about being sexist/bigoted, it seems like next to nobody has a problem with what appears to be pretty blatant sexism (even if it was in the spirit of "fun").
Hey Todd! Centex has dancing girls! Maybe the Cultimate/Centex guys are starting to listen to your vision of how ultimate should be.
> If you REALLY cared about this, you would have signed your name. > As it is, this seems more like an anonymous waste of time. > If you are going to tell someone else how to have fun, you better have > the guts to AT LEAST say who you are.
I am a little concerned about the motiviations that lie behind an attack on this person's post based upon her so-called anonymity, esp. when the question that she raises seems to be a good one. That the underlying issue is sexism bodes less well for all.
Why attack this thread and this poster? Esp. when, you, as a gmail user (this is an assumption), don't know whether her full name is in her email address (at least at the time that you posted). She may be using her normal email address - I don't see her full address either - but posting from a person's regular email address is hardly anonymous, I'd suggest. It's not like she created an address just to make this post. (unless she did).
Ben, since you're calling her out, could you explain yourself here - i.e. what connections do you have, if any, to the event or people involved, and what is your opinion about her question.
(here's the question I hear: Isn't this playing into a sexist system in a way that is problematic?)
Substantively - I think that her question is a good one - but I also think that she's being overly optimistic in thinking that this forum will deal with that question in a useful manner. We have trouble on rsd with outright homophobia - and it isn't clear to me that folks in the current college generation are, as a group, particularly well suited to deal with questions of gender politics.
This issue is complicated one - because part of it has to do with people thinking of themselves as self-expressing (the it's-all-in-good-fun crowd) - and implies issues of freedom to self-express, and yes, it should be ok for people to do that in a sexualized fashion if they want to. I don't want to put limits on that. On the other hand, what you call self-expression & fun can at the same time play into systems that are problematic (sexism in general).
I'll make an admittedly BAD analogy, but I hope that it clarifies the point for some. Would a member of the US women's soccer team be willing to do a dance off during half time of a US Men's team exhibition game - or would many of them find this too self-demeaning? Again - the analogy is less than perfect.
I think that a person asking whether this particular manifestation is problematic is fairly justified in doing so, _regardless of the answer_.
From the data points that I have - all limited to this thread - it sounds like, yes, it is problematic. As such, some part of the audience will find it offensive. You can still choose to support the activity (and perhaps there is some point at which the self-expression side sufficiently justifies itself), but just be aware that some people will interpret it in a different way. And where the community supports the activity as "harmless," you're going to further alienate those individuals.
> Women's ultimate will continue to be seen as illegitimate if we keep > allowing shit like this to happen at our tournaments. You can tell me > to chill out about it, but if people continue to be completely > unconscious and unaware of how we're perpetuating the way our sport is > perceived, nothing will ever change. Women have to work twice as hard > to be taken seriously as athletes as it is and it's really fucking > hard to try to defend our athleticism when you're watching girls > riding each other, however "funny" or "entertaining" it is. Seriously > guys, gender constructs, come on. I understand that my sarcasm may > come across as slightly biting, but this is such a ridiculous thing > that I'm not all that concerned. I was honestly embarrassed for > women's ultimate at Centex; people need to think about what they're > doing and how it affects our sport. Call me irrational, but I'm > looking out for the legitimacy of women's ultimate. Dancing like > middle schoolers is doing nothing but making women ultimate players > look ridiculous.
> -Kari Rongstad > #22 Wisconsin Ultimate
> I fucking love women's studies. Let's go.
As a coach to a woman's club team, I have had to deter similar situations on the team. Prior to coming on board, the team, albeit made up of different players than it is now, would spend as much time coming up with a choreographed dance as they would practice. It is hard enough to teach women players who have only played co-ed leagues to step up intensity and aggressiveness when playing only against other women. To have the leaders of the team perpetuate a lack of intensity was hard to watch, which led me to "volunteer" to be coach. I wanted the women who WANTED to get better and learn to play at a higher level to have the opportunity to do so. If my team were at a tournament that created a dance competition I would not allow them to take up their practice time to do something like that. I would have encouraged them to watch the showcase game and learn. That being said, if they chose to do the dancing on their own time I wouldn't have stopped them, since they are adults and it is up to them to decide how much they want to take the sport seriously.
1. This had nothing to do with the tournament. There was no intention to hold a women's dance competition as an equivalent extracurricular activity to the men's showcase game. The women's teams put this together by themselves and for themselves just to have some fun with other players that we only see a few times a year.
In fact, I would have preferred if the men ignored us and stuck to their own entertainment. All they did was detract from the women's fun with moronic commentary and heckling when we were just doing our own thing and having a chill time.
2. The sex moves and grinding may have gotten excessive at times, but our dance had zero shirt removal, grinding, or making out and we won. Clearly people just wanted to see cool dancing, there was no pressure to be sexual.
3. I've seen plenty of dumbshit men on Saturday nights of tournments looking like gigantic drunk, childish assholes, and I would argue that that makes one look a lot more like an illegitimate athlete and human being than putting together some friendly, innocent dancing with friends.
> 1. This had nothing to do with the tournament. There was no intention > to hold a women's dance competition as an equivalent extracurricular > activity to the men's showcase game. The women's teams put this > together by themselves and for themselves just to have some fun with > other players that we only see a few times a year.
> In fact, I would have preferred if the men ignored us and stuck to > their own entertainment. All they did was detract from the women's fun > with moronic commentary and heckling when we were just doing our own > thing and having a chill time.
> 2. The sex moves and grinding may have gotten excessive at times, but > our dance had zero shirt removal, grinding, or making out and we won. > Clearly people just wanted to see cool dancing, there was no pressure > to be sexual.
> 3. I've seen plenty of dumbshit men on Saturday nights of tournments > looking like gigantic drunk, childish assholes, and I would argue that > that makes one look a lot more like an illegitimate athlete and human > being than putting together some friendly, innocent dancing with > friends.
> I didn't happen to see said dance-off, but did hear about it and > wondered about the men playing a showcase game at the same time... I > think the whole idea of the 'dance-off' for only the women is > questionable, I would have preferred to hear that the dance-off was > open to and included men's teams while the showcase included a women's > game. I don't think that this thread starter is harping on 'people > wanting to have a good time' but bringing up an important issue. And > I do think that when one of the most competitive college tournaments > of the year decides to throw in an element such as this dance-off (in > the manner it did..ie. separating the mens display of athleticism and > the womens display of ?whatever you want to call it?) it IS a step > backward for women's ultimate. I would propose that such an event is > better suited for a tournament such as Fool's Fest or some other laid > back tournament where such shenanigans ARE completely fun and the men > participate too, thus eliminating a sexist perception. And I'm quite > frankly appalled that I am the first person to respond to this thread > in (relative) support of the original statement. Are ultimate players > (men and women alike) really so uneducated about sexism as that, or > just plain apathetic about the progress of women's ultimate? Either > case is unfortunate.
> Plain and simple. The dance-off for women being held at the same time > as the showcase for men (and being sex exclusive) wasn't the best > idea. IF our goal as female ultimate players is respect and growth of > our division.
My impression was the dance-off originated because a couple of women's teams were interested in doing it/inspired it (Melee and Pie Queens?). So what's sexist about the tournament supporting an activity that women's teams expressed interest in and not having a corresponding contest for the men's teams, who didn't express interest? Just the timing? Would it be sexist to hold it after the showcase game when the majority of teams have already gone home and the teams still there don't want to hang arounda ny longer? Is the only way to support these women's teams' interest without being sexist to push the showcase game back, forcing those teams to stick around late and reducing the showcase audience?
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