Most women ultimate players are idiots.
karla...@yahoo.com
I really, honestly think you are an idiot.
Remember that time that you decided it would be SUPER COOL to make up
a dance to perform at Centex. Remember when it was the dumbest idea
you've ever had. I do.
If women's ultimate is ever going to be considered a legitimate and
competitive sport, you need to stop doing this fucking shit.
Honestly. The dance-off at Centex was a huge set-back for women's
ultimate and it was the worst thing I've ever had to watch. While the
men were playing a showcase game, women were doing the most
disgusting, idiotic shit ever. HEY, LET'S GRIND ON EACH OTHER and
maybe make out. Awesome.
Women's ultimate is already seen as a joke by a lot of people. When
we decide that a display of how many sex positions we can throw into a
Soulja Boy song is an indication of our athletic ability, we fucking
lose. I couldn't believe that so many teams didn't have a problem
with this showcase of what women's ultimate is about.
Yeah, women are supposed to be more "spirited", but sacrificing our
dignity as athletes and memorizing some shitty, middle school moves
instead of practicing our ACTUAL sport is revolting. I'm honestly
appalled. It was embarrassing for me to associate myself with women's
ultimate when girls wearing leotards and sports bras were touching
each other's butts for an audience.
It's great that women's teams enjoy getting to know each other outside
of competition in a way that is unique to women's ultimate, but the
Centex dance-off was a ridiculous attempt.
Seriously. I couldn't watch. I justify my athleticism through my
play and not through taking off my clothes and dancing to Destiny's
Child.
Fish
i'm sorry i missed it.
RT
Captain Underpants
ultimate. Thanks!
p.s. "a huge set-back for women's ultimate and it was the worst thing
I've ever had to watch" really, though? really?
Earmuffs
And, get over yourself, stop caring so much about what other people
think, and have a good time. Ultimate isn't supposed to be intense
100% of the time, thats the beauty of it. Go play soccer if thats what
you want.
-Shannon O'Malley
UW Element #11
Ma$e
Just kidding.
Bill...@gmail.com
Fuck ultimate, lady. Play soccer and I'll appreciate you.
Veronica
ultimate than what may have been seen at Centex.
Handy
Unsigned thread starter, when a baller on a top 5 college team and a
top 2 club women's team says your assessment is crap, that hurts bad.
Meanwhile, way to rep dancing, "pecking" and just plain killin it,
Shannon.
-Handy
czuba
wondered about the men playing a showcase game at the same time... I
think the whole idea of the 'dance-off' for only the women is
questionable, I would have preferred to hear that the dance-off was
open to and included men's teams while the showcase included a women's
game. I don't think that this thread starter is harping on 'people
wanting to have a good time' but bringing up an important issue. And
I do think that when one of the most competitive college tournaments
of the year decides to throw in an element such as this dance-off (in
the manner it did..ie. separating the mens display of athleticism and
the womens display of ?whatever you want to call it?) it IS a step
backward for women's ultimate. I would propose that such an event is
better suited for a tournament such as Fool's Fest or some other laid
back tournament where such shenanigans ARE completely fun and the men
participate too, thus eliminating a sexist perception. And I'm quite
frankly appalled that I am the first person to respond to this thread
in (relative) support of the original statement. Are ultimate players
(men and women alike) really so uneducated about sexism as that, or
just plain apathetic about the progress of women's ultimate? Either
case is unfortunate.
Plain and simple. The dance-off for women being held at the same time
as the showcase for men (and being sex exclusive) wasn't the best
idea. IF our goal as female ultimate players is respect and growth of
our division.
Mike Gerics
> 100% of the time, thats the beauty of it. Go play soccer if thats what
> you want.
---that's queer as hell.
karla...@yahoo.com
If caring about what other people think was something I was concerned
with, I would have forced my team to get into 80's dancewear and
pretend to have sex with each other to entertain a crowd of people
probably. Putting the type of constraint on ultimate is ridiculous.
Way to set up a sport that will never be able to surpass a certain
point. It will be awesome in the future when we can't move beyond
"having a good time" because we don't want to be too intense.
Venga
> She's probably ugly, that's why she's so cranky about it.
>
> Just kidding.
I don't think you are
benlw...@gmail.com
If you REALLY cared about this, you would have signed your name.
As it is, this seems more like an anonymous waste of time.
If you are going to tell someone else how to have fun, you better have
the guts to AT LEAST say who you are.
blw
wiggity
http://www.pbase.com/elsinger/image/81521285
THAT'S how you get respect as a sport.
Wiggity
ps- was this contest a 'official' tournament event scheduled by
Cultimate? If so, that is quite fucked up. If it was something more
spontaneous or cooked up by a few women's teams for fun, then original
poster needs to take a chill pill.
muffin
> as the showcase for men (and being sex exclusive) wasn't the best
> idea. IF our goal as female ultimate players is respect and growth of
> our division.
The dance-off was hilariously funny and entertaining. After a couple
of minutes, there were more people watching the dancing than the
actual showcase game. Full team choreography does not look easy to
perform. The Hodags fully support this endeavor and will be putting
together their own routine for nationals.
karla...@yahoo.com
allowing shit like this to happen at our tournaments. You can tell me
to chill out about it, but if people continue to be completely
unconscious and unaware of how we're perpetuating the way our sport is
perceived, nothing will ever change. Women have to work twice as hard
to be taken seriously as athletes as it is and it's really fucking
hard to try to defend our athleticism when you're watching girls
riding each other, however "funny" or "entertaining" it is. Seriously
guys, gender constructs, come on. I understand that my sarcasm may
come across as slightly biting, but this is such a ridiculous thing
that I'm not all that concerned. I was honestly embarrassed for
women's ultimate at Centex; people need to think about what they're
doing and how it affects our sport. Call me irrational, but I'm
looking out for the legitimacy of women's ultimate. Dancing like
middle schoolers is doing nothing but making women ultimate players
look ridiculous.
-Kari Rongstad
#22 Wisconsin Ultimate
I fucking love women's studies. Let's go.
karla...@yahoo.com
Daag Alemayehu
> ps- was this contest a 'official' tournament event scheduled by
> Cultimate? If so, that is quite fucked up. If it was something more
> spontaneous or cooked up by a few women's teams for fun, then original
> poster needs to take a chill pill.
I apologize for speaking out of turn if I'm wrong, but I was told this
was an official tournament event. That is, the women's teams were
told WELL in advance that there would be a dancing competition and
that they should all choreograph something. I agree with you,
Wiggity: had it been something spur-of-the-moment then that'd be
unoffensive but it seems at least a little strange that someone sat
down and thought this out and still felt it was a good idea.
I would have posted earlier but, like Holly Czuba I only heard about
this second-hand so I assumed some people that were actually there
would have posted already in support of Kari's original point. And
you know what that tells me? For all the shit people give Todd Leber
about being sexist/bigoted, it seems like next to nobody has a problem
with what appears to be pretty blatant sexism (even if it was in the
spirit of "fun").
Hey Todd! Centex has dancing girls! Maybe the Cultimate/Centex guys
are starting to listen to your vision of how ultimate should be.
H
ultimatep...@gmail.com
> If you REALLY cared about this, you would have signed your name.
> As it is, this seems more like an anonymous waste of time.
> If you are going to tell someone else how to have fun, you better have
> the guts to AT LEAST say who you are.
I am a little concerned about the motiviations
that lie behind an attack on this person's post
based upon her so-called anonymity, esp.
when the question that she raises seems to
be a good one. That the underlying issue is
sexism bodes less well for all.
Why attack this thread and this poster?
Esp. when, you, as a gmail user (this is an
assumption), don't know whether her full
name is in her email address (at least at the time
that you posted). She may be using her normal
email address - I don't see her full address either -
but posting from a person's regular email address
is hardly anonymous, I'd suggest. It's not like
she created an address just to make this post.
(unless she did).
Ben, since you're calling her out, could you
explain yourself here - i.e. what connections
do you have, if any, to the event or people
involved, and what is your opinion about
her question.
(here's the question I hear:
Isn't this playing into a sexist system in a
way that is problematic?)
Substantively - I think that her question is a good
one - but I also think that she's being overly
optimistic in thinking that this forum will deal
with that question in a useful manner. We have
trouble on rsd with outright homophobia - and it
isn't clear to me that folks in the current college
generation are, as a group, particularly well suited
to deal with questions of gender politics.
This issue is complicated one - because part
of it has to do with people thinking of themselves
as self-expressing (the it's-all-in-good-fun crowd) -
and implies issues of freedom to self-express,
and yes, it should be ok for people to do that in a
sexualized fashion if they want to. I don't want
to put limits on that. On the other hand,
what you call self-expression & fun can at
the same time play into systems that are
problematic (sexism in general).
I'll make an admittedly BAD analogy, but
I hope that it clarifies the point for some.
Would a member of the US women's
soccer team be willing to do a dance
off during half time of a US Men's team
exhibition game - or would many of
them find this too self-demeaning?
Again - the analogy is less than perfect.
I think that a person asking whether this
particular manifestation is problematic is
fairly justified in doing so, _regardless of
the answer_.
From the data points that I have - all
limited to this thread - it sounds like,
yes, it is problematic. As such, some
part of the audience will find it offensive.
You can still choose to support the
activity (and perhaps there is some
point at which the self-expression side
sufficiently justifies itself), but just
be aware that some people will interpret
it in a different way. And where the
community supports the activity as
"harmless," you're going to further
alienate those individuals.
nro...@gmail.com
As a coach to a woman's club team, I have had to deter similar
situations on the team. Prior to coming on board, the team, albeit
made up of different players than it is now, would spend as much time
coming up with a choreographed dance as they would practice. It is
hard enough to teach women players who have only played co-ed leagues
to step up intensity and aggressiveness when playing only against
other women. To have the leaders of the team perpetuate a lack of
intensity was hard to watch, which led me to "volunteer" to be coach.
I wanted the women who WANTED to get better and learn to play at a
higher level to have the opportunity to do so. If my team were at a
tournament that created a dance competition I would not allow them to
take up their practice time to do something like that. I would have
encouraged them to watch the showcase game and learn. That being said,
if they chose to do the dancing on their own time I wouldn't have
stopped them, since they are adults and it is up to them to decide how
much they want to take the sport seriously.
surge
1. This had nothing to do with the tournament. There was no intention
to hold a women's dance competition as an equivalent extracurricular
activity to the men's showcase game. The women's teams put this
together by themselves and for themselves just to have some fun with
other players that we only see a few times a year.
In fact, I would have preferred if the men ignored us and stuck to
their own entertainment. All they did was detract from the women's fun
with moronic commentary and heckling when we were just doing our own
thing and having a chill time.
2. The sex moves and grinding may have gotten excessive at times, but
our dance had zero shirt removal, grinding, or making out and we won.
Clearly people just wanted to see cool dancing, there was no pressure
to be sexual.
3. I've seen plenty of dumbshit men on Saturday nights of tournments
looking like gigantic drunk, childish assholes, and I would argue that
that makes one look a lot more like an illegitimate athlete and human
being than putting together some friendly, innocent dancing with
friends.
eat a dick.
-surge
UM
matty j
BRING IT!
OH, IT'S BEEN BRUNG!
colinm...@gmail.com
My impression was the dance-off originated because a couple of women's
teams were interested in doing it/inspired it (Melee and Pie
Queens?). So what's sexist about the tournament supporting an
activity that women's teams expressed interest in and not having a
corresponding contest for the men's teams, who didn't express
interest? Just the timing? Would it be sexist to hold it after the
showcase game when the majority of teams have already gone home and
the teams still there don't want to hang arounda ny longer? Is the
only way to support these women's teams' interest without being sexist
to push the showcase game back, forcing those teams to stick around
late and reducing the showcase audience?
Daag Alemayehu
> looking like gigantic drunk, childish assholes, and I would argue that
> that makes one look a lot more like an illegitimate athlete and human
> being than putting together some friendly, innocent dancing with
> friends.
So getting drunk at a party makes you look worse than humping your
teammate(s) for other people's amusement during the tournament
itself? I see.
> eat a dick.
Awesome! I totally respect your points a thousand times more now!
Apparently the right way to respond to a well-thought out post by one
of your fellow women college ultimate players questioning whether
something was demeaning or sexist is to reply with lots of reverse
sexism and cursing. I wish I grew up with the intarwebs too, they
teach me so much now in my old age.
karla...@yahoo.com
Again, men are automatically seen as legitimate athletes; they never
have to prove their athleticism. Women have to work twice as hard to
be seen as competitive, serious players. Men binge drinking makes
them look ridiculous, yeah, but I'm not talking about men binge
drinking because men's athletic ability is not called into question
because of how stupid they look after drinking as many beers as
physically possible. The bottom line here is the while men played
ultimate in a showcase game, the equivalent activity for women was to
dress up and parade around and pelvic thrust. Clearly, people didn't
actually want to see "cool dancing" because every single routine (I
guess except Michigan's?) displayed the exact same crude, elementary
shit. And again, it was supposed to be friendly and innocent, but
obviously, no one thought about the repercussions. A lot of friendly
and innocent activities build up to reinforce these gender constructs
and stigma that definitely exist around women's ultimate. It's all
great and funny but, whatever. It's not good. Women will never get
beyond being seen as inferior and undeserving of respect as athletes.
That's the bottom line. Looking ridiculous shouldn't be the way women
need to maintain spirit and friendly relationships with other teams.
We could probably start by not punching people in the chest during
play, but whatever.
-Karlapanda
fucking BDL.
acs...@gmail.com
> actually want to see "cool dancing" because every single routine (I
> guess except Michigan's?) displayed the exact same crude, elementary
> shit.
Psst: don't assume...it makes an ass out of you and me...but in this
case really just you. =D not all the routines were dirty, and some
were really quite impressive!
--amy
jessica...@gmail.com
I respect your opinion, Karlapanda. But there are a few things I can't
figure out.
1) If you're trying to break down "gender constructs and stigma"
amongst the ultimate community, why would you call fellow women
ultimate players idiots?
2) The alternative to dancing was to watch the men play (or in my
case, go find a burrito because I can't dance for shit). My team made
a proactive decision to dance instead of watching guys play, and I
applaud and support their decision to have fun, socialize, and
celebrate friendly competition in the way they so choose. My team
danced proudly to a Missy Elliot song and no one (with the exception
of this post) has questioned their athleticism.
3) >Women will never get
> beyond being seen as inferior and undeserving of respect as athletes.
> That's the bottom line.
Seriously? I mean, really? If you want to persuade the RSD masses of
your opinion and make change, cynicism and divisive comments are
ineffective. But cynicism aside, everyone knows, if you're a baller,
you're a baller. Try looking beyond "proving yourself as a female
athlete" and try ballin. If you need help, ask O'Malley how.
And a shout out to Gordy, one of the Oregon captains, for droppin it
like its hot in that dance competition...sans a left ACL. That's
impressive.
JVH
Handy
> She's probably ugly, that's why she's so cranky about it.
>
> Just kidding.
I think what you meant to say is "did the dance competition also look
like it was in three feet of water?"
Oh gender as a social construct!
karla...@yahoo.com
do stupid things. I don't think I should apologize for making people
uncomfortable by calling out behavior I see as fundamentally
problematic.
2) A women's showcase game? Why can't that be something worth
striving towards? Obviously, this wasn't an option at Centex, but the
only way it will ever happen is if people get pissed and express their
opinions about things that don't sit right. Just because no one else
has questioned anyone's athleticism on a public forum besides myself
doesn't mean anything. In the crowd of people that was watching the
dance-off, I'm going to go ahead and say at least a few people were
conscious enough to recognize the ridiculousness of a men's showcase
game being equated to a women's dance-off. I guess I wasn't aware
that in order for someone's opinion to be legitimate, you have to have
everyone's support.
3) However ineffective my methods of expressing my opinion are, at
least people are thinking about something they weren't before. I
think that's important. Being a baller in women's ultimate should be
more respected than it is. I don't understand what's so wrong with
discussing how that can occur. Also: I think proving yourself as
female athlete and "balling" mean exactly the same thing? O'Malley
definitely has that down, no one's trying to debate that. But, just
because a ton of sick players decided to do something doesn't mean
there aren't problems inherent in those actions.
Sara Jacobi
It seems like the problem here is when that "having fun" culture is
linked to women's ultimate as a sport, and not treated as something
separate and off the field. Maybe there would have been a better time
to do the dance-off thing than during the men's showcase game, such as
at a post-tournament party. That way, it wouldn't have separated out
the genders and made it seem like the women's teams were off bringing
negative attention upon themselves while the real men played the real
sport.
I agree with JVH that negativism and cynicism are NOT the ways to go.
The way to go IS to "prove ourselves as athletes" BY "ballin." But I
don't think the way to go is to marginalize ourselves by feeding into
stereotypes, either, EVEN when it's fun. I bet the girls who "shake
their asses" in "rap videos" are having a great time too, but don't we
all shake our heads at those girls -- at least a little bit -- for
breaking down what others have worked so hard to achieve for women?
- Sara
ps. That was a rhetorical question. I don't need 50 guys posting on
here saying they like watching girls shake their asses, so keep that
to yourselves. thanks!
Handy
their opinions about things that don't sit right." You mean like
Frank and ulticritic? hmmm...
Daag Alemayehu
> "the only way it will ever happen is if people get pissed and express
> their opinions about things that don't sit right." You mean like
You'd be surprised how much Todd's bitching and moaning has done to
open people's minds to alternative viewpoints. It may be relatively
behind-the-scenes for now, but the wheels of change are a turnin', my
friend.
Frank, on the other hand, is just silly these days.
L.dub...@gmail.com
in order to write this.
On Mar 29, 7:32 am, karlapa...@yahoo.com wrote:
> If caring about what other people think was something I was concerned
> with, I would have forced my team to get into 80's dancewear.
Forced into 80's dancewear? Can you seriously put that phrase into a
sentence?
> Way to set up a sport that will never be able to surpass a certain
> point. It will be awesome in the future when we can't move beyond
> "having a good time".
Why would we ever want to stop having a good time? I fucking love
ultimate!
I pour thousands of dollars into ultimate. I work my ass off to be at
the top. And after winning all of our games, when my team wants to
kick it with the other womens teams in a dance off, I'll be right
there, in my spandex, dancing to Daft Punk.
Ultimate isn't serious 24/7. Get over it.
Lindsey Wilson
UW Element #2
oh, and "most women ultimate players are idiots"?? SERIOUSLY?
rollinnufffatter
ulticritic
> There's way more that contributes to the "illegitimacy" of women's
> ultimate than what may have been seen at Centex.
like what?
Bert
> Forced into 80's dancewear? Can you seriously put that phrase into a
> sentence?
>
> ultimate!
> I pour thousands of dollars into ultimate. I work my ass off to be at
> the top. And after winning all of our games, when my team wants to
> kick it with the other womens teams in a dance off, I'll be right
> there, in my spandex, dancing to Daft Punk.
> Ultimate isn't serious 24/7. Get over it.
>
> Lindsey Wilson
> UW Element #2
>
> oh, and "most women ultimate players are idiots"?? SERIOUSLY?
It's already been said but....SERIOUSLY? Way to prove your case by
showing how amazing women ultimate players are....by calling them
idiots.
Also, I'll have you know that NO ONE on Element was forced to wear 80s
dancewear. We thought of our dance and costumes, and everyone's
reaction was "Daft Punk?! Heck yes!" or "80s Dancewear?! Heck yes!",
and anyone who didn't want to dance, didn't. Besides, that stuff is so
tight it's hard to get onto a willing person, let alone force spandex
onto someone. As I heard was the same for Michigan girls, the dance
practices were done independent of ultimate practice. The dance-off
served its purpose quite well of bringing women together in a fun,
spirited way that was e-mailed about beforehand, yes, but with the
backstory of it being an originally spontaneous thing that has since
become a tradition.
I can't believe someone would say women aren't respected as athletes
and, generally, as ballers, especially in ultimate. You look at either
of the Callahan winners and you know that they're both the shit. Yes,
there are developments to be made (only 10% of NCUS Ultivillage posts
are women's, 90% men's), but why spend your time whining about it when
you could be having fun with teammates, learning to laugh at yourself,
and generally enjoying life instead? We all see the gap between men's
and women's, and we're all doing what we can. Some are proactive, like
Gwen Ambler (I love www.icultimate.com!), and some are...well...just
sour, and call other women players idiots. Don't rain on my parade,
I'm not wearing enough clothing for that kind of weather. :)
-Bert "Pocket Rocket" Abbott
UW WOMEN'S Ultimate #42
ulticritic
> For all the shit people give Todd Leber
> about being sexist/bigoted, it seems like next to nobody has a problem
> with what appears to be pretty blatant sexism (even if it was in the
> spirit of "fun").
selective shit giving.....
>
> Hey Todd! Centex has dancing girls! Maybe the Cultimate/Centex guys
> are starting to listen to your vision of how ultimate should be.
its about fuckin time. These particular girls obviously know their
roll. Speaking of which.......did anyone video tape the dance off
ulticritic
> I bet the girls who "shake
> their asses" in "rap videos" are having a great time too, but don't we
> all shake our heads at those girls -- at least a little bit -- for
> breaking down what others have worked so hard to achieve for women?
i usually shake my head and say.....damn, thats a sweet ass
>
> - Sara
> ps. That was a rhetorical question. I don't need 50 guys posting on
> here saying they like watching girls shake their asses, so keep that
> to yourselves. thanks!
how about just one
Patimus
folks (Karlapanda) should be directing your energies. If being super
intense 100% of the time and not having fun is what legitamacy is all
about, then I would prefer that ultimate maintain it's current course.
The Flywheel dance off was pretty sweet.... http://youtube.com/watch?v=9QGNd885wAs
I really don't know the details...but it seems unfair that the men got
a tournament sponsored exhibition game and their was no equivalent
activity for the women. That's pretty crappy if that's actually how
it went done.
It's something to definitely complain to the TD's about. Focus your
energies towards that end...sexist TD's.
Have sex. Don't be sexist. (That's a pretty good motto!)
:P (outsider to the matter just commenting)
melina...@gmail.com
>
> Seriously. I couldn't watch. I justify my athleticism through my
> play and not through taking off my clothes and dancing to Destiny's
>Child.
My god, what were you fed as a child? Lighter fluid??! Take the stick
out quickly (but gently- it might puncture your uterus and then you
couldn't bare any angry funless babies!!!!!!!)
The Element I knew didn't have sex to soulja boy. They made love.
-Melina
melina...@gmail.com
> ultimate and it was the worst thing I've ever had to watch.
Lucky gal! I on the other hand once had to watch a pigeon get slowly
crushed in the machinery of a drawbridge. Talk about a set-back for
women's ultimate. Let's talk about THAT!
Mike Gerics
> Ultimate isn't supposed to be intense
>> 100% of the time, thats the beauty of it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---the beauty of ultimate is NOT that it isn't supposed to be intense 100%
of the time.
the beauty of ultimate...is how the disc soars.
Mike Gerics
> situations on the team. Prior to coming on board, the team, albeit
> made up of different players than it is now, would spend as much time
> coming up with a choreographed dance as they would practice.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---WOOOOOOOWWWWWW...i've always wondered aloud if this were the case with
some teams....and now i finally know that it's true.
colinm...@gmail.com
> It's something to definitely complain to the TD's about. Focus your
> energies towards that end...sexist TD's.
Not sure it's sexist TDs. It's THE showcase game. THE game that
everyone watches while eating BBQ dinner. Adding a women's game would
mean that each showcase game was merely a game to watch. It's the TDs
responding to what players want to watch - athletic plays. So it's
not sexism. What would you call it? Athleticism? They never had a
showcase game for the shorter, slower, weaker men's players, but you
never heard me complaining. Another example. I like watching
impressive slam dunks. That's my favorite part of basketball - pretty
much the only reason I'd ever watch. As a result, I watch NBA games,
but not WNBA games. Is that sexist of me? No. I am an athleticist,
maybe a heightist.
It's silly to accuse TDs of being sexist for putting on the best
tournament of the season in a way that appeals to the vast majority of
the participants. Surely there are better things to cry about
(missing the bus, getting a bad hair cut, dropping a frisbee, etc).
Could there be a women's showcase game? Sure. Would some people
watch it? Sure. Will there likely be one if the women's teams
attending the tournament next year request it? Probably, unless there
are logistical barriers. Would it be a huge set-back for women's
ultimate if there were more drops in the women's showcase game than in
the men's? Yes - it would confirm those unfounded sexist views that
men's ultimate is more fun to watch and I expect an irate RSD post
calling the women on those teams idiots for it next year.
chrisda...@gmail.com
On Mar 29, 7:50 pm, karlapa...@yahoo.com wrote:
> 1) I don't know if anyone has noticed any of my sarcasm. But, people
> do stupid things. I don't think I should apologize for making people
> uncomfortable by calling out behavior I see as fundamentally
> problematic.
>
> 2) A women's showcase game? Why can't that be something worth
> striving towards?
i'd say the women's team fury was/is showcased in the dream games.
their presence was partially sponsored and also promoted, if i read g.
ambler's blog correctly. maybe if she reads this she will elaborate.
this suggests there are people already making strides towards your
goal.
> Just because no one else
> has questioned anyone's athleticism on a public forum besides myself
> doesn't mean anything. In the crowd of people that was watching the
> dance-off, I'm going to go ahead and say at least a few people were
> conscious enough to recognize the ridiculousness of a men's showcase
> game being equated to a women's dance-off.
it sounds like they aren't equal, if one is ridiculous and the other
watchable. hopefully men's ultimate can recover from this.
by conscious do you mean awake?
>I guess I wasn't aware
> that in order for someone's opinion to be legitimate, you have to have
> everyone's support.
come on. this place is just like any other clique. are you surprised
rec sport squealed when you kicked it?
> Being a baller in women's ultimate should be
> more respected than it is.
why? my respect for others stems from personality, not ability. unless
you care to elaborate, i'll give you the "respect is given, not taken"
response. (this is not entirely true. i respect hard workers on the
field. is this personality or ability based? whatever)
> But, just
> because a ton of sick players decided to do something doesn't mean
> there aren't problems inherent in those actions.
nothing wrong with politicizing ultimate. but what if these athletes
have moved beyond caring about the repercussions and ramifications of
their actions? could that possibly be attributed to the confidence
earned/learned from playing sports, or from the feelings of security
and safety within a tight knit community?
i know i'm an hombre, and can only theorize, not relate. but i have
seen footloose, and know what happens when dancin's outlawed. ( big
government really sells itself in these situations)
ps-any "conscious" folks out there at this hour think the gorilla
girls would make a good team name? logo?
Patimus
are calling women unathletic. As I know you personally, I don't
believe that's the case with you.
Yes, I am aware that the NBA is more popular than the WNBA...but I
also view that as an inequity that as we progress as a society will be
lessened. People should learn to value the athletism of girls just as
much as dudes. I am sure that you realize that the way something
is...is not always the way something should be...generally speaking.
My point is not that the TD's are sexist...My point is that folks in
charge generally should put thought into being sensitive to gender
issues. If something's offered for the men, something equivalent
should be offered for ladies. Or if only one showcase game can be
offered per year, alternate dudes one year, ladies the next.
Calling TD's sexist just gets more attention on RSD.
Colin, remember, Have sex...don't be sexist. I hope you don't argue
with that.
:P
MrP...@gmail.com
> also view that as an inequity that as we progress as a society will be
> lessened. People should learn to value the athletism of girls just as
> much as dudes.
How will progressive changes in attitude remedy the fact that Kobe and
LeBron can dunk from the free throw line but 99 out of 100 WNBA
players can't dunk without a trampoline?
I've heard that enlightened folk are encouraged to appreciate the
"purity" of the women's game, where the extra pass is taken in order
to secure the layup. On the other hand, who cares about layups when
we can watch LeBron start at the 3 point line, take 5 steps without
dribbling, dunk the ball, knee some dude in the face and then get to
the line for a three point play since the knee-recipient was inside
the "no defense in this circle" zone? So what if the offense was
"unpure?" That shit looked AWESOME!
I like your plan, but how is it better than suggesting that we
progress as a society to the point where spinach tastes better than
cookies?
~p
geneva...@hotmail.com
game we get Shannon O'Malley to teach a clinic on ballin'.
Geneva Locke
#71 UBC
And by next tournament I mean WA/BC sectionals.
BladingSawBladeWithBladesComingOutOfItAndStuff
BladingSawBladeWithBladesComingOutOfItAndStuff
ulticritic
> The Flywheel dance off was pretty sweet....http://youtube.com/watch?v=9QGNd885wAs
seemed pretty tame to me.......no grinding or all that much
sexuality. Just like in the sport of ultimate, they would have
benefited by havin some(better yet ALL) sistas out there.
but that display is nothing close to what i vision when i speak of
providing dancing girls as a form of downtime entertainment. I saw no
cleavege and their syncronicity was way off. It was almost as if they
were making a mockery of the "dancing girl" concept all together.
was that the team that won or that was accused of the bumping/grinding/
sucking face?
surge
hahaha. Or women's Ultimate should just sanction head butting and body
slamming, then people would have to take us seriously...and the name
"Ultimate" would need a lot less explanation.
I think this thread has made it clear that the most disgraceful aspect
of women's ultimate is the lack of quality senses of humor. I mean,
let's get real here, dancing with friends after a tournament is not a
make or break act in "legitimizing" women's ultimate.
If "athletes" in your "sport" dick around in an online forum arguing
over their own legitimacy and each others' rhetoric, there are much
larger barriers at play. Oh, but I'm sure football and basketball
players worry about these things all the time and expend a lot of
mental frustration trying to pad their egos on rec.sport.ball.
So maybe we should just stop taking ourselves and each other so
seriously, play hard, and if a few men want to satiate their own
inferiority complexes by shitting on women's ultimate the way they
imagine the grander world of sport shitting on them...I say, let's
dance, it's not going to change who tools who on the field.
-surge
Patimus
I don't think that the fact that Kobe and LeBron can dunk from the
free throw line but 99 out of 100 WNBA players can't dunk without a
trampoline needs to be remedied. It is a fact that men are generally
more athletic than women. What should and can be remedied is that you
can call out Kobe and Lebron but don't appear to be able to call out
the dunking WNBA player, who, on a female athletic scale, may be
equivalent to Kobe and Lebron. Don't worry, most folks, including
myself can't call her out either.
I don't have the answers on how to get there. But, I do think the
liberal community of Ultimate, which is generally more progressive in
my opinion than the normal public, is a good place to start and quite
capable of leading the way.
:P
Geoff S.
> Just because women support something doesn't make it un-sexist.
> Again, men are automatically seen as legitimate athletes; they never
> have to prove their athleticism. Women have to work twice as hard to
> be seen as competitive, serious players. Men binge drinking makes
> them look ridiculous, yeah, but I'm not talking about men binge
> drinking because men's athletic ability is not called into question
> because of how stupid they look after drinking as many beers as
> physically possible. The bottom line here is the while men played
> ultimate in a showcase game, the equivalent activity for women was to
> dress up and parade around and pelvic thrust. Clearly, people didn't
> actually want to see "cool dancing" because every single routine (I
> guess except Michigan's?) displayed the exact same crude, elementary
> shit. And again, it was supposed to be friendly and innocent, but
> obviously, no one thought about the repercussions. A lot of friendly
> and innocent activities build up to reinforce these gender constructs
> and stigma that definitely exist around women's ultimate. It's all
> great and funny but, whatever. It's not good. Women will never get
> beyond being seen as inferior and undeserving of respect as athletes.
> That's the bottom line. Looking ridiculous shouldn't be the way women
> need to maintain spirit and friendly relationships with other teams.
> We could probably start by not punching people in the chest during
> play, but whatever.
>
> -Karlapanda
> fucking BDL.
You can take your argument and Ram it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix081prSiNc
ulticritic
>
> The Flywheel dance off was pretty sweet....http://youtube.com/watch?v=9QGNd885wAs
pretty sweet???? more like pretty sad......that brutha on the daily
show wasnt joking when he said white people sure know how to fuck up
music and dancing
Judd
> I like your plan, but how is it better than suggesting that we
> progress as a society to the point where spinach tastes better than
> cookies?
>
> ~p
Wait a minute, I take serious issue with this. You are comparing
women to spinach and men to cookies, and clearly it is the other way
around...
Veronica
Post-game cheers ("2! 4! 6! 8! Who do we appreciate? The team who just
beat us!") and games (WAH!, donkey on a carousel, etc). If I wanted to
sing songs and dance, I'd attend Camp Firewood.
Also...I forget who said this - I might even be agreeing with Frank
here - but the backwards trucker hats and the XXXXXL shorts don't do
it for me either. A lot of players look like they just rolled out of
bed.
ulticritic
> On Mar 29, 11:58 pm, ulticritic <t...@ec.rr.com> wrote:.
damn.....i was fishin for: no refs and no scoreboards. I did say the
backwards trucker hats looked stupid but never said anything about the
long shorts.
Fish
with rounds that start at 8:30 and warm-ups beginning at 7:30 for most
teams... we DID just roll out of bed.
MrP...@gmail.com
> can call out Kobe and Lebron but don't appear to be able to call out
> the dunking WNBA player, who, on a female athletic scale, may be
> equivalent to Kobe and Lebron. Don't worry, most folks, including
> myself can't call her out either.
Lisa Leslie was the first WNBA player to dunk in-game. She, like
Kobe, represents for LA. She is a phenomenal athlete within women's
basketball, but the unfortunate fact is that pretty much any NBA scrub
can equal her most memorable achievement on any given evening. For
the record, I cannot dunk, so she's got that on me. I think that
Tenessee might have (or have had?) a player with dunking capability
once too, but I don't remember her name.
Still, I won't lie. I watch Lakers games from time to time, I can't
say that I've ever watched a Sparks game, ever.
~p
Alison
noraca...@gmail.com
the way to go, especially when you forget sunscreen and get a sweet
hat tan. And they really make XXXXXL shorts??? DUDE! Why didn't FIVE
hook me up with those? Veronica --> send me a pair of XXXXXL shorts
and I will rock those anytime. I'm serious, I will be expecting those
in the mail.
Dancers have really nice bodies and are pretty ripped, so I wouldn't
diss on them. Plus, dancing and singing is fun! Maybe try it
sometime, I don't know why people hate it so much...also, cheering, I
agree it can be pretty lame sometimes, but I am more than down for
initiating good spirit between teams...plus games are fun...try not to
grow up so fast. Or come up with better cheers.
I love my team, I love my teammates. We work very hard at this sport
and each of us has made a huge commitment to play. We also take time
outside of practice/workout times to get together and have fun (this
includes learning a sweet dance routine). This is the most amazing
group of people I have ever been on a team with and I am sure I will
never find this kind of chemistry on any other team I play on.
I have never felt like I have had to legitimize myself. If I work
hard and practice, it shows, and I think that's pretty true in
general. The people I associate with in the Ultimate Community are
very supportive and if someone wants to diss on women's ultimate,
that's fine, everyone has a right to say what they want...they just
suck ass in my opinion and have no idea what they are talking about.
I like dancing, and I am going to keep dancing, and if you don't like
it, that's fine, that's how you feel. Just please don't call me an
idiot without getting to know me first. I am sure you are a great
person with great ideas, and yeah, women could use a little more
respect sometimes, I think everyone could. The best way to do that is
not to call me an idiot or a slutty dancer. Try to present your ideas
in a more constructive way if you really want to make a difference and
gain respect. Try to bring the female Ultimate Community together
instead of dissing on your fellow female players.
Whoever started this thread, next time we are at the same tournament,
I would like to meet you. Please find UW so I can say hi and get to
know you.
-Nora Carr
UW Element #55
karla...@yahoo.com
Centex (for the most part) dancing. "Dancing", maybe. I don't hate
dancing, I really like dancing, actually. I have a problem with
dancing when it's set up to equate something more serious (a men's
showcase game) paired with the fact that the majority of the teams who
were dancing were touching their boobs and each other's boobs, etc.
making a generally very athletic activity (dancing) look ridiculous.
I feel like what I'm trying to get across has become completely
misconstrued. Nit-picking diction and sarcasm (the title of the
thread was completely sarcastic, I obviously don't think hundreds of
people I don't know are idiots; I think some decisions made weren't
the best but, mainly, I'm a disgustingly sarcastic person) was not why
I thought that this was a topic to be discussed. I was simply trying
to start dialogue about a really important issue.
I've said all of this before. It's very common knowledge that women
aren't taken as seriously as they should be as athletes. In my
opinion, things like dance-offs are not a good way to promote
legitimacy in women's ultimate, no matter how legitimate of an athlete
you actually are. You can definitely say, "who the fuck cares? I
know how hard I work, I know that women's ultimate is a serious,
competitive sport. I don't care how other people look at it." but at
the same time, we have to realize that in order to expand and develop
our community, we need others to see it as we do and in turn, support
us.
I am not dissing on women's ultimate or the incredible athletes that
make up the women's ultimate community. The dance-off at Centex had
nothing to do with ACTUAL ultimate, which is a big reason why I have
such a problem with it in the first place. But, it reflected on
women's ultimate in a way that I think is detrimental to where we want
women's ultimate to go.
-Kari Rongstad
Wisconsin
Earmuffs
case was put on by the tournament, in fact, it is a "showcase" but it
is also just a normal pool play game, now if we have a dance off
instead of a pol play game, I'd be pissed too. The dance off was
something by the players completely separate of the tournament
organizers and the actual tournament itself, it just happen to involve
every team that wished to participate and was at the same time as the
show case.
Our community is expanding every year and I think it is because of
things like the dance off, it is unique to Ultimate. If Ultimate
expands to NCAA or anything else it isn't going to be the same sport
it is today and I wont play if it isn't the same. I see your point,
I'm not hating, I'm just disagreeing.
sempe...@gmail.com
> make up the women's ultimate community. The dance-off at Centex had
> nothing to do with ACTUAL ultimate, which is a big reason why I have
> such a problem with it in the first place. But, it reflected on
> women's ultimate in a way that I think is detrimental to where we want
> women's ultimate to go.
I'm pretty sure that there are tons of things that happen in relation
to tournaments that are not ACTUAL ultimate, but that doesn't
necessarily mean they are not legitimate means of social expression
among new friends who share common interests.
Indeed, if we want to list things that happen at Cultimate tourneys
that set back ACTUAL ultimate, perhaps we can consider the so-called
"party" at Trouble in Vegas that basically consisted of the tourney
organizers throwing alcohol at college students out the back of a
truck in an abandoned lot until the police came. On a scale of stupid
to legit that seems infinitely more damaging than dirty dancing
ultimababes who need a shower.
And I say this not to diss that, but only to say diff'rent strokes for
diff'rent folks. And really, I don't think the events that happen
after play concludes has any bearing on the Legitimacy of Women's
Ultimate. You can't stop ad hoc dancing, and frankly I think I'd
rather watch my buddies dance than watch another "showcase" of men. If
it were me. And it wasn't, which prob'ly means I should shut the fuck
up. And I too, for the record, ain't hatin'.
H2AZ
ktpaulson
> I didn't happen to see said dance-off, but did hear about it and
> wondered about the men playing a showcase game at the same time... I
> think the whole idea of the 'dance-off' for only the women is
> questionable, I would have preferred to hear that the dance-off was
> open to and included men's teams while the showcase included a women's
> game. I don't think that this thread starter is harping on 'people
> wanting to have a good time' but bringing up an important issue. And
> I do think that when one of the most competitive college tournaments
> of the year decides to throw in an element such as this dance-off (in
> the manner it did..ie. separating the mens display of athleticism and
> the womens display of ?whatever you want to call it?) it IS a step
> backward for women's ultimate. I would propose that such an event is
> better suited for a tournament such as Fool's Fest or some other laid
> back tournament where such shenanigans ARE completely fun and the men
> participate too, thus eliminating a sexist perception. And I'm quite
> frankly appalled that I am the first person to respond to this thread
> in (relative) support of the original statement. Are ultimate players
> (men and women alike) really so uneducated about sexism as that, or
> just plain apathetic about the progress of women's ultimate? Either
> case is unfortunate.
>
> Plain and simple. The dance-off for women being held at the same time
> as the showcase for men (and being sex exclusive) wasn't the best
> idea. IF our goal as female ultimate players is respect and growth of
> our division.
You know what I think is a bigger issue? The fact that showcase games
are RARELY women's teams. Why don't you harp on that a little. We
were just trying to have a good time, lighten up.
jacob...@gmail.com
You got beat down by most people who responded to your post because
you came off as an angry killjoy. I don't blame you for getting angry
at sexism or for women whom you think aid and abet sexism, but you
have to pick your shots carefully when it comes to expressing anger.
Angry about men who beat their wives? Pull no punches! Angry about
women ultimate players doing a sexualized dance at a tournament? Take
a breath. Go up to them and talk to them about it. Start an rsd post
which begins with language like the this: "In my opinion, things like
dance-offs are not a good way to promote legitimacy in women's
ultimate, no matter how legitimate of an athlete you actually are.
You can definitely say, 'who the fuck cares? I know how hard I work,
I know that women's ultimate is a serious, competitive sport. I don't
care how other people look at it.' but at the same time, we have to
realize that in order to expand and develop our community, we need
others to see it as we do and in turn, support us." This is a totally
legit position, so why did you need to have a bunch of your fellow
women ultimate players rain on you before you wrote in a reasonable
manner?
"I am not dissing on dancers ... I don't hate dancing, I really like
dancing, actually. I have a problem with dancing when it's set up to
equate something more serious (a men's showcase game)"
I think you may be confusing perception and intent. Because the
womens' dancing took place during the mens' showcase game (I'm
trusting you on this; I was not there), your perception is that the
women who planned the dancing intended the dancing to somehow be a
female "equivalent" to the male ultimate. You are overlooking two key
facts: 1) Outside of the finals, a showcase game (played by either
women or men) is usually the only time during a tournament when almost
all teams have simultaneous free time while the sun is still up. This
means that if a few womens' teams decide to have a silly non-frisbee-
based competition, the showcase game is a very convenient time to
schedule such an event. 2) Lots of women players just aren't that
interested in watching the mens' showcase game, so they have an
incentive to come up with an activity during this game which is
actually fun for them.
You are imposing your narrow ideas about dance and sexuality on
others: "I wouldn't exactly call what happened at Centex (for the most
part) dancing ... 'Dancing', maybe ... the majority of the teams who
were dancing were touching their boobs and each other's boobs, etc.
making a generally very athletic activity (dancing) look ridiculous."
You're wrong on a few levels here. 1) Dancing can include boobs
touching boobs; 2) Dancing need not be athletic, although it often is;
3) Dancing is allowed to be ridiculous.
So ... you're saying that "like dancing" is kind of like a person
saying that they "like music," just as long as the music doesn't have
dirty words or humor. Stating you didn't like a dance is a legitimate
expression of opinion. Stating that it was not really dance is to
bestow upon yourself a great deal of artistic authority. Folks
generally don't want to have a "dialogue" with people who bestow false
authority upon themselves; they tend to just want to tear such people
a new one.
"I feel like what I'm trying to get across has become completely
misconstrued."
This is a risk you run when you freely vent your anger instead of
talking to people as though they are your peers and deserving of your
respect. Lesson learned?
"Nit-picking diction and sarcasm (the title of the thread was
completely sarcastic, I obviously don't think hundreds of people I
don't know are idiots"
If this were truly obvious, then why didn't the people responding to
your post realize it? Are they just dumb, or is it possible that you
just didn't make your point very well?
"I was simply trying to start dialogue about a really important
issue."
Either you are lying to yourself and you actually just started this
thread to vent, or you are not very good at starting a dialogue.
"It's very common knowledge that women aren't taken as seriously as
they should be as athletes."
This is neither common nor knowledge. It is an uncommon opinion (one
which I happen to share with you). Referring to your opinion as
'common knowledge" is not a compelling way to make your point; it
makes you sound sloppy and arrogant.
"I am not dissing on women's ultimate or the incredible athletes that
make up the women's ultimate community."
Right. You're not dissing the women ultimate players who don't make
you mad; you're just dissing the women ultimate players who do make
you mad. Thanks for the critical clarification. Also, for the record,
the womens' ultimate community, like the mens' ultimate community, is
actually made up of very few "incredible athletes," but on behalf of
my female friends who play ultimate, thanks for the factually
inaccurate complement.
"The dance-off at Centex had nothing to do with ACTUAL ultimate ... it
reflected on women's ultimate in a way that I think is detrimental to
where we want women's ultimate to go."
Pow! All sarcasm aside, this is the crux of your position, and for
what it's worth (not much), I completely agree. If I owned womens'
collegiate ultimate, I would never have allowed the Centex dancing
contest to take place. But guess what, Kari? Womens' collegiate
ultimate doesn't belong to me, and it doesn't belong to you.
And now, my young womens' studies loving friend, we come to the
dreaded deconstruction. From times prior to your birth to about when
you were in third grade (I'm assuming you are not a graduate student),
male nudity/faux sexuality was at least as big a part of the ultimate
scene as its female counterpart, even at the highest levels of the
game. For example, halftime of the women's finals of club ultimate
nationals in 1996 featured naked cartwheels by D.O.G. and Sockeye (the
teams who had just played in the mens' final). The Fall 1992 UPA
newsletter featured pictures of a naked co-ed game played in Santa
Cruz. Streaking by both sexes was known to take place back in the
day.
The conduct of your fellow female college players at Centex is an
example of how women are holding on to traditional ultimate culture
while their male counterparts choose not to. This may not be how you
or I would choose to promote ultimate, and it may in some ways
resemble representations of female sexuality in the dominant (i.e.,
outside of ultimate) culture, but this is not necessarily sexism.
Your "rap video hoe" analogy fails because the Centex dancing was
controlled by women, and more importantly, was apparently intended to
be largely FOR women.
You have unintentionally used your concerns about sexism as a Trojan
horse for concerns about ultimate in general. You may be interested
to know that there were non-Ultimate spectators watching the womens'
finals in 1996. Nationals was in Plano, Texas in 1996, and some folks
brought their children to watch. These people called the police when
they saw all the naked men doing cartwheels. At the time, I just felt
bad for the children of people who felt compelled to call the police
in response to seeing goofy, naked ultimate players. As I'm guessing
most of the people who have responded to your post would do, I paid
little mind to the uptight, judgmental parents. Now I realize that
merely ignoring or laughing at such people, while gratifying in the
short term, is not necessarily in the best interests of long-term
ultimate growth. But this is easy for me to say, since nobody (not
even my my wife) wants to see me doing naked cartwheels or dance while
wearing spandex.
chrisda...@gmail.com
franklin sure did make it her own though. you know that old dude in
the movie blade? he wrote me and bobby mcgee. son of a preacher man?
freddie mercury.
in your quest for legitimacy, will you stop humming along?
tip of the cap to anyone preventing ultimate's inclusion of seventeen
magazine readers. or maxim readers, jeezus.
stick around though. without being privy to anything, i predict
ultimate is about to blow up. maybe you'll see it was better on the
margin.
just kidding about freddie mercury. it was couple of other hombres.
check out the guerrilla girls, if you love to study women.
melina...@gmail.com
What really made me angry about your post was that it had the
potential to make girls feel really bad about themselves. Hey- another
reason for young women to feel bad, guilty, uncertain and doubtful
regarding who they are! Awesome! Just what we need!
I rarely take anything serioulsy, but this has gone way beyond
ultimate. This society is full of mixed messages. It tells us 'in
order to win you must be sexy, cool, thin, and attractive.' And so we
strive to become those things, and as soon as we acheive them, God
forbid we show them off: the same society slaps us in the face and
says 'be chaste, be modest, don't be a slut, don't be a tease.' Be
sexy, but not sexual. No matter what you do, there is a derogatory
name, title and image being attached to you. FUCK THAT. I watched the
video of the dance off: it looked like a bunch of girls getting down
with their teammates- laughter, smiles, cheering, love. Support. What
could possibly be wrong with that?? Of all the things in the world to
get down on, and you choose this?? Those women were comfortable,
confident and enthusiastic about their bodies. Can't you understand
how not only important, but rare that is? Sure, you can be all those
things without flaunting it. If that's how you roll, fantastic, and
you've got lots of company. But do not dare to have the audacity to
make others feel bad about showing off their smokin hot bodies they
spent months training for. And the way you reffer to the men's
showcase game as if it were some hallowed event- it's either trajedy
or comedy, I'm not sure which. Hey girls! Cover up your skin, sit
quietly and watch the menfolk play ultimate! What century do you live
in?? I'm not saying you should become a card-carrying member of the
kink community, but being a little more sex-positive wouldn't kill
you.
You're obviously full of fire- put it towards a more worthy cause and
let my former teammates grind in peace, would you?
Lina
I feel very strongly about this subject. Feel free to respond or email
me privately.
ulticritic
> I am not dissing on dancers; I wouldn't exactly call what happened at
> Centex (for the most part) dancing. "Dancing", maybe. I don't hate
> dancing, I really like dancing, actually. I have a problem with
> dancing when it's set up to equate something more serious (a men's
> showcase game) paired with the fact that the majority of the teams who
> were dancing were touching their boobs and each other's boobs, etc.
> making a generally very athletic activity (dancing) look ridiculous.
I for one am with ya there kari. That was not good dancing. Now in
the u tube vid i saw (blue shirt, black shorts team) i saw no "boob
touching", but as far as dancing goes.....they sucked. If i were
their coach i would have had em using the time they spent preparing
for that spent preparing for ulti instead.
But i would still be interested in checkin out the squads grinding,
grabbing and kissing each other. someone give us a link to those.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've said all of this before. It's very common knowledge that women
> aren't taken as seriously as they should be as athletes.
well first off, many "white boy" sports arent taken all that
seriously......especially when they are played by white girls. Add in
the hippy "new game" rule enforcement element and forget about it.
You and your sport are already looked at as a joke. Not that you are
a joke but in the sports world, as in the real world, perception IS
reality.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> . I don't care how other people look at it." but at
> the same time, we have to realize that in order to expand and develop
> our community, we need others to see it as we do and in turn, support
> us.
and there is the paradox of it all.......ya dont care but ya do.
There are many things that can be done to make ulti more legit than
just not having dance offs.........what is your take on all those
other missing enhancements?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am not dissing on women's ultimate or the incredible athletes that
> make up the women's ultimate community. The dance-off at Centex had
> nothing to do with ACTUAL ultimate, which is a big reason why I have
> such a problem with it in the first place. But, it reflected on
> women's ultimate in a way that I think is detrimental to where we want
> women's ultimate to go.
again, i support your disgust but in reality that dance off didnt dig
the sport of ultimate all that much further into the pit that its
already in any more than the perpetuation of allowing players to
continue to manage their games and the rule enforcement and time
contraint aspects of the games they play in.......especially the
showcased game that was going on at the same time this dance off thing
was.
Ultimate has lots of "issues", trust that.
Paul P
> I am not dissing on women's ultimate or the incredible athletes that
> make up the women's ultimate community. The dance-off at Centex had
> nothing to do with ACTUAL ultimate, which is a big reason why I have
> such a problem with it in the first place. But, it reflected on
> women's ultimate in a way that I think is detrimental to where we want
> women's ultimate to go.
>
> -Kari Rongstad
> Wisconsin
I'm pretty sure I saw Chase getting his legs shaved midfield during
halftime of the finals at Potlatch a couple years ago. I'm pretty
sure that it was meant to objectify him. It certainly didn't have
anything to do with ultimate. I think more people call him "sir" than
say he isn't a serious athelete. I think most people realized it was
meant to be fun. Or funny. Or something.
Paul P
Baer
interpreting this conversation as a cry for diginity and
professionalism in our sport at multiple levels (including the women's
series). Even though this thread has a vibe of sexism and negativity,
I rather think it further demonstrates the rift between the desire for
a more professional venue for Ultimate to be played (even for the
ladies) vs. those who do not take it as seriously or have a vision for
legitimacy of the sport.
Not that there's anything wrong with dancing and parties and such, but
I think this thread kind of goes along with some of the "Spirit"
threads that have been posted as of late.
ulticritic
> Kari-
>
> What really made me angry about your post was that it had the
> potential to make girls feel really bad about themselves. Hey- another
> reason for young women to feel bad, guilty, uncertain and doubtful
> regarding who they are! Awesome! Just what we need!
i would have thought they would just feel bad about how they
represented the sport. and then after watching themselves on u tube,
maybe felt bad about their dancing skills. of course i only saw a
tape of that one team (maybe the others were better)
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I rarely take anything serioulsy, but this has gone way beyond
> ultimate. This society is full of mixed messages. It tells us 'in
> order to win you must be sexy, cool, thin, and attractive.' And so we
> strive to become those things, and as soon as we acheive them,
hold on now....let me make a clarification here. as a homophobic red
blooded american man i saw nothing sexy, cool or attractive about that
utube dance performance........thin yes, but all that other
shit....no. not sayin the didnt hve fun doin it......just sayin it
wasnt all that fun watchin it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
God
> forbid we show them off: the same society slaps us in the face and
> says 'be chaste, be modest, don't be a slut, don't be a tease.' Be
> sexy, but not sexual.
again, nothing sexy about that one performance
--------------------------------------------------------------
No matter what you do, there is a derogatory
> name, title and image being attached to you. FUCK THAT. I watched the
> video of the dance off: it looked like a bunch of girls getting down
> with their teammates- laughter, smiles, cheering, love. Support. What
> could possibly be wrong with that??
from a players perspective their time would have been better spent
coragraphing and perfecting a 4 person play or zone defense than a
silly dance......and in the end probably a lot more rewarding too.
------------------------------------------------------------
Of all the things in the world to
> get down on, and you choose this?? Those women were comfortable,
> confident and enthusiastic about their bodies.
then why were they("their bodies") completley covered up. the loose
fitting t shirts and baggy shorts revealed nothing. again i only saw
the one blue shirt team......maybe the others were more provocetive
and less of a mockery.......still waitin to see em.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't you understand
> how not only important, but rare that is?
rare??? bitches fourishing their assets is rare??? What world do you
live in?
------------------------------------------------------
Sure, you can be all those
> things without flaunting it. If that's how you roll, fantastic, and
> you've got lots of company. But do not dare to have the audacity to
> make others feel bad about showing off their smokin hot bodies they
> spent months training for.
c'mon.......smokin hot??? even if they were somkin hot they were
hardly "showin them off" with the clothes they were wearin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
And the way you reffer to the men's
> showcase game as if it were some hallowed event- it's either trajedy
> or comedy, I'm not sure which.
well you are right there......the sport of ultimate showcased(in its
present state) is alomost as much of a mockery to sports as the dance
routine i saw was to real dancing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey girls! Cover up your skin, sit
> quietly and watch the menfolk play ultimate! What century do you live
> in?? I'm not saying you should become a card-carrying member of the
> kink community, but being a little more sex-positive wouldn't kill
> you.
nor would have been reavealin a little tah tah action. maybe nextime
just get some sexier unies. maybe some "push up bras" could help next
time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You're obviously full of fire- put it towards a more worthy cause and
> let my former teammates grind in peace, would you?
i'm still waitin to see the grinding......was that blue team the only
one that got taped???
---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Lina
> I feel very strongly about this subject. Feel free to respond or email
> me privately.
no, keep it public......nothin like a good cccccccc-cat fight
aarons...@gmail.com
discussing men was Callahan talk and the thread discussing women was
about whether or not them dancing at Centex was sexist. Thought that
was interesting enough to note concerning the content of this
thread.
Aaron Schieber
Kansas Coach
P.S. I'm on Kari's side, if you want people to take you seriously,
act seriously.
jessica...@gmail.com
I took Beau seriously during Potlatch finals when he wore a moose
horns, women's pants, and some sort of tail. ( http://www.pbase.com/elsinger/image/81678031
)
But maybe its because he's a guy. Or maybe because its certainly
possibly to not act seriously and still be a baller.
ulticritic
>
> I took Beau seriously during Potlatch finals when he wore a moose
> )
>
> But maybe its because he's a guy. Or maybe because its certainly
> possibly to not act seriously and still be a baller.
isnt that particular event geared towards acting the fool.
Daag Alemayehu
> I'm pretty sure I saw Chase getting his legs shaved midfield during
> halftime of the finals at Potlatch a couple years ago. I'm pretty
Am I the only one that can spot the differences between Chase and Beau
doing silly things during Potlatch and women doing silly things during
Centex?
(Hint #1: All I said was "Chase" and "Beau" and every single one of
you knows exactly who I'm talking about.)
(Hint #2: Potlatch isn't the premier tournament of anybody's season.)
MrP...@gmail.com
I know that no one takes Tom Brady seriously anymore!
Anyway, I agree that off-field behavior like harmless semi-
choreographed dancing is no way to elevate Ultimate to legitimacy.
"Real" athletes in "real" sports favor "real" activities like wrapping
their sportcars around trees at 120mph, crashing motorcycles, firing
pistols in the air outside of nightclubs, getting caught with a few kg
of dope in their cars, getting into fights and so on. Even at the
college level, it's all the coaches and administrators can do to keep
the men's basketball and football players from toking up or getting
arrested for drunk and disorderly the night before games. Come to
think about it, maybe the fact that women's basketball players don't
do that stuff either is the reason why no ones takes women's
basketball seriously.
Seriously dude, get over the inferiority complex. If you don't want
to get out there and have some fun, at least quit judging those that
do. Props to U-dub for standing up for the twin goals of balling and
having a good time. I've seen them a couple times this year and they
seem to practice what they preach. They're "legit" enough for my
respect anyway.
~p
Paul P
>
> P.S. I'm on Kari's side, if you want people to take you seriously,
> act seriously.
Seconded. And if you don't mind people knowing you are capable of
having a good time, go ahead and have a good time.
Maybe some of the seriousness and good timeyness will rub off on each
other and people will get a balanced look at the sport: competetive
and fun.
Lord help people if they saw the dancing and, without watching a game,
decided that was what women's ultimate was all about.
Paul P
Paul P
> isnt that particular event geared towards acting the fool.
So? Are you saying the A bracket at Potlatch isn't competative?
Paul P
ulticritic
to me coed ultimate is somewhat of a mockery of sports and competition
to begin with but to answer your question, no, its not. The emphisis
of that tourny is to have fun, act stupid, drink while you play and
wear stupid shit. Guys going at 75% so they dont injure women is
hardly competative.
The fact that you (and probably others) cant distiguish between the
two just proves that the gap between the NEW GAMERS and TRUE
GAMERS(not franks classification) is growing wider and more obvious.
sideline
> This link might be helpful for our discussion:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpbXl5Sp-Wc.
> I know that no one takes Tom Brady seriously anymore!
>
The following link might be even more helpful. Watch at your own
risk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJNC3dgreaU
The Super Bowl Shuffle was a huge set-back for men's football and it
was the worst thing I've ever had to watch.
I would take Flywheel's dance-off entry over that any day.
ulticritic
you got to remember that was done in the eighties......if a team did
it today they probably wouldnt look so ...."white". Now them fly
wheel bitches.....they looked even "whiter". That one chick that came
out there first looked like a meth head with a bad case of fleas.
Of course i'm still waiting to see the other teams???? was that team
with the blue shirts deamed the winning team (if so maybe i DONT want
to see the other teams)??? surley the rest of the comp dance off was
taped as well????
Gambler
fully support striving towards more featured games of women playing
ultimate at a high level (and since chrisdatkins asked me to elaborate
my blog post).
At the Dream Cup, the format was such that the women's final was right
before the men's final. This was a great set-up because spectators
didn't have to choose between which game to watch and many (most? all?
I'm not quite sure) teams were finished with their games by the
finals. So players were able to watch Fury play the Japanese National
team right before watching Sockeye battle it out with Buzz Bullets.
That schedule might be difficult to pull off an many tournaments in
the US since few tournaments use the straight bracket format that the
Dream Cup had in place, but staggering finals is a great idea and
could probably be arranged at more events.
Fury is also having a showcase game against Team Canada at DUI this
coming weekend. Traditionally the showcase game during the BBQ on
Saturday at DUI has been an open game, but this year, the TDs agreed
to let Fury and the Canadians play during that round since both teams
are sending split squads to the tournament (they are using it as a try-
out tournament) but wanted the chance to compete against each other at
full strength. Since Fury will be representing the US at Worlds, this
will the be first taste of an important match-up. I'm quite hopeful
that the game will be exciting and entertaining for spectators.
Additionally, Riot and the Rough Riders had a series of showcase
events in the 2006 season as part of the North American Champions
Series that also featured Sockeye and Furious George.
I think that the more opportunites there are to showcase women's
ultimate, the better, and I wish that more tournaments considered
having a women's showcase. When Fury and MUD (from Japan) played in
the showcase game at ECC in 2003, the game was a true battle that went
down to double game point. Some of the Japanese women I chatted with
during the Dream Cup still remembered the game too and cited it as a
really great experience.
On Mar 29, 11:06 pm, chrisdatkins...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 29, 7:50 pm, karlapa...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 2) A women's showcase game? Why can't that be something worth
> > striving towards?
>
> i'd say the women's team fury was/is showcased in the dream games.
> their presence was partially sponsored and also promoted, if i read g.ambler'sblog correctly. maybe if she reads this she will elaborate.
> this suggests there are people already making strides towards your
> goal.
MrP...@gmail.com
> The following link might be even more helpful. Watch at your own
> risk:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJNC3dgreaU
I'll see your Super Bowl Shuffle and raise you a Shipoopi (2:15 in).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdoBOligXjo
Incidentally, how funny is it watching Ulticritic's disappointment
when he found that the Centex dance-off didn't satisfy his softcore
porn needs? Dearest UC, it was a dance-off after a day of pool play,
not Girls Gone Wild. You've got the wrong set of expectations...
~p
Sara Jacobi
FIELD vs OFF THE FIELD.
You can be a baller on the field, i.e. take the sport seriously, and
also know when and how to have a great time off the field. I don't
think silly cheers and dancing or games belong IN or even RELATED to
games, or should be seen as something equivalent to a men's showcase
game, but it's obviously important (in ALL aspects of life) to not
take yourself too seriously and to have a good time.
However, it doesn't sound like what went down at Centex was intended
to do what it's been accused of doing (mixing the on the field vs. off
the field aspects and passing it off as equivalent to the men's
showcase game.) It sounds like a bunch of women's teams thought it
was unfair that they weren't being offered their own showcase game,
and instead of sitting around watching the men, used the opportunity
to kick back with other women's players and do something fun.
I hope everyone can see this distinction.
Now let's get a discussion going about actual Women's ultimate, not
these "issues!" I want to know more about what happened at Roll Call
last weekend and more about what's going on with different sectionals
and regionals coming up!! Who are likely all-region candidates for
each region? Who wants to get some female Callahan hype going??
- Sara
Boston University Women's team
ps. does anyone else think ulticritic sounds REALLY creepy in this
thread? just sayin'
DQT
> On Mar 31, 11:48 am, sideline <sidelineheck...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The following link might be even more helpful. Watch at your own
> > risk:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJNC3dgreaU
>
>
> Incidentally, how funny is it watching Ulticritic's disappointment
> when he found that the Centex dance-off didn't satisfy his softcore
> porn needs? Dearest UC, it was a dance-off after a day of pool play,
> not Girls Gone Wild. You've got the wrong set of expectations...
>
> ~p
It's actually kind of creepy if you ask me.
ulticritic
> On Mar 31, 11:48 am, sideline <sidelineheck...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The following link might be even more helpful. Watch at your own
> > risk:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJNC3dgreaU
>
>
> Incidentally, how funny is it watching Ulticritic's disappointment
> when he found that the Centex dance-off didn't satisfy his softcore
> porn needs? Dearest UC, it was a dance-off after a day of pool play,
> not Girls Gone Wild. You've got the wrong set of expectations...
>
> ~p
ulticritic
oh i'm creepy alright.......creepy like a man.
ulticritic
i was simply clarifying statements in other posts about these girls
displaying any kind of sexyness.......point being.....it wasnt sexy in
the least. The initial charge was that they were hoin' out and all
they really did was show how unsexy they were and how lousy of dancers
they are. Someone else said how this was somehow my idea of the
dancing girl downtime enhancement that i've always outwardly promoted
in conjunction with sports entertainment in general. Simply put....IT
WAS NOT.
Now to all those people that have attended professional sporting
events and have been distracted by real, sexy, attractive, hot and
talented women shaking there asses and tiddys(stripper style) durring
the downtime......you know what i'm talking about here. Obviously
this kind of male geared entertainment enhancement is of no intrest to
crunch getting fags like punto (actually punto, you would be a crunch
gettie fag.......you are a bottom, right?) but, like it or not women
and punto, men like hot ass sexy bitches that can provide some nice
eye candy intertwined in their(our) sports entertainment. So creepy
as it may be, thems the facts and thats just the way it is.
casey...@gmail.com
other to soulja boy... or if it's a more private situation then Keith
Sweat can be used!!
YEAAAA WOMEN GRINDING .... BOOOOO UGLY GIRLS WHO BITCH ABOUT IT!!!
Casey Boy
mkt
> > Yes, I am aware that the NBA is more popular than the WNBA...but I
> How will progressive changes in attitude remedy the fact that Kobe and
> LeBron can dunk from the free throw line but 99 out of 100 WNBA
> players can't dunk without a trampoline?
The argument about "most athletic" or "highest quality athletes" is
bogus. Yes NBA players are more athletic, can jump higher, etc. than
WNBA players. But that's neither a justification nor an emprically
correct reason for higher popularity of the NBA over the WNBA (or of
mens sports over womens sports in general).
Because the NBA players are also head and shoulders better than NCAA
basketball players.
But NCAA basketball is a very popular sport, arguably as popular as
the NBA is. But there is no Kobe Bryant in the NCAA. (There was a
Kevin Durant and a Greg Oden, but they only stayed one year, and will
do their best playing in the NBA.)
And then we get to high school basketball ... if viewing the highest
quality athletes and the highest quality competition were indeed
important, high school gyms would be deserted. Why watch high school
basketball players when they are so clearly inferior to the players in
the NBA?
The answer: viewing the "best athletes" is not why people watch
sports. If it were the reason, we'd all be watching only the NBA,
NFL, etc. and ignore NCAA sports, high school sports, soccer outside
of the World Cup, etc. etc.
MrP...@gmail.com
> gettie fag.......you are a bottom, right?)
Honestly, dude, I haven't any idea what "crunch gettie" might mean. I
think you've finally found an area where your knowledge exceeds mine.
Unfortunately for you, you're a one trick pony. Still more
unfortunately for you, your one trick is cliché gay jokes.
> but, like it or not women
> and punto, men like hot ass sexy bitches that can provide some nice
> eye candy intertwined in their(our) sports entertainment. So creepy
> as it may be, thems the facts and thats just the way it is.
My wife is an ultimate player too, so I'd at least have the decency to
keep the drooling to a minimum. Like it or not, Mr. Critic, I'd figure
that most women appreciate men who show class and restraint and don't
act like middle-aged, lecherous slimeballs. In particular, this
thread was about women getting respect as players and having fun on
their own during downtime. I'm pretty sure that satisfying your
desire for oggling jailbait was far from the point of the excercise.
Given that the internets are pretty much full of pr0n, why so glum
that you didn't find any here?
Somehow, I doubt that any of those featured in the video are crying
because their amateur goofiness did not, in your view, compare to the
performances of professional dance squads with personal trainers, 8
layers of makeup and boob jobs. That's what I meant when I said that
you had the wrong expectations.
~p
ulticritic
>
> The answer: viewing the "best athletes" is not why people watch
> sports.
college sports provides drama and the athleats are good enouph to
appeal to the skill level that we demand. There is also the idea of
having a favorite team that puts asses in the seats and eyballs on the
screens.
If it were the reason, we'd all be watching only the NBA,
> NFL, etc. and ignore NCAA sports, high school sports,
who the fuck watches highschool sports. aside from a little hs
football and the mcdonalds capitol classic hs sports gets no tv time.
And little leage baseball gets way better ratings than babe ruth, high
school and even college ball.
soccer outside
> of the World Cup, etc. etc.
uhhhh, we do ignore all soccer with the exception of world cup. from
what i understand mls is hangin on by a thread.
aqu...@gmail.com
moves, with the wonderful help of Missy Elliott, and I have to say
that the biggest set back in MY mind is not the "sexy" dancing or
whatever, but your fear of it!
God forbid a woman feels comfortable enough in her sexuality,
appearance, etc. and has a light enough spirit to let loose with the
rest of the ultimate community! I assume a woman wrote this original
post and I find it saddening and, to be frank, oppressive, that women
are still afraid of the open expression of sexuality, especially in a
sport as open as ultimate! I don think it was dumb to make it the same
time as the show case game, we were under the impression it was during
the half time of the game, but I don't think that undermines the
Centex Dance-Off much at all.
Ultimate isn't about coming up on RSD and calling people rude names
like assholes and using terms like sluts, just in the same way we
don't do it on the field. It's about having a good time, drinking if
you want on the sidelines, and shaking your shit if you feel like it!
Loosen up, and think about what YOU are saying and doing and what that
means not just for women's ultimate, but for women in general.
Alicia (aka SCRAPPY)
#17 Hodawgs- YOU KNOW! proud of it
On Mar 28, 10:27 pm, karlapa...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hey assholes.
>
> I really, honestly think you are an idiot.
>
> Remember that time that you decided it would be SUPER COOL to make up
> a dance to perform at Centex. Remember when it was the dumbest idea
> you've ever had. I do.
>
> If women's ultimate is ever going to be considered a legitimate and
> competitive sport, you need to stop doing this fucking shit.
> Honestly. The dance-off at Centex was a huge set-back for women's
> ultimate and it was the worst thing I've ever had to watch. While the
> men were playing a showcase game, women were doing the most
> disgusting, idiotic shit ever. HEY, LET'S GRIND ON EACH OTHER and
> maybe make out. Awesome.
>
> Women's ultimate is already seen as a joke by a lot of people. When
> we decide that a display of how many sex positions we can throw into a
> Soulja Boy song is an indication of our athletic ability, we fucking
> lose. I couldn't believe that so many teams didn't have a problem
> with this showcase of what women's ultimate is about.
>
> Yeah, women are supposed to be more "spirited", but sacrificing our
> dignity as athletes and memorizing some shitty, middle school moves
> instead of practicing our ACTUAL sport is revolting. I'm honestly
> appalled. It was embarrassing for me to associate myself with women's
> ultimate when girls wearing leotards and sports bras were touching
> each other's butts for an audience.
>
> It's great that women's teams enjoy getting to know each other outside
> of competition in a way that is unique to women's ultimate, but the
> Centex dance-off was a ridiculous attempt.
>
> Seriously. I couldn't watch. I justify my athleticism through my
> play and not through taking off my clothes and dancing to Destiny's
> Child.
MrP...@gmail.com
> basketball players.
1) College adds an extra element: folks root for their alma maters.
2) The NBA is hands down more popular than college BB. The NCAA
season is only 20-30 games long. NBA arenas are bigger and are filled
3 times as often throughout the year. In college basketaball, the
tourney, and a few rivalry games are the only things that blip
ratings. Every NBA game is televised.
3) Do you think that any team in the WNBA could beat a final-four NCAA
Men's squad?
> Why watch high school
> basketball players when they are so clearly inferior to the players in
> the NBA?
Why watch your kid play softball? The same reason you'd watch
ultimate or any other sport that doesn't draw with athleticism:
because you know someone on the field personally, or they represent
your school. The problem with that rationale is that it doesn't scale
to pro-level. The folks watching LeBron and Kobe are watching them
for their skills, not because they went to school together or are room
mates. That's why only the NCAA revenue sports have real success at
the next level. The rest hope for semi-pro or Olympics once every
four years.
~p
mkt
> > Why watch high school
> > basketball players when they are so clearly inferior to the players in
> > the NBA?
>
> Why watch your kid play softball? The same reason you'd watch
> ultimate or any other sport that doesn't draw with athleticism:
> because you know someone on the field personally, or they represent
> your school. The problem with that rationale is that it doesn't scale
> to pro-level. The folks watching LeBron and Kobe are watching them
Exactly. And pro-level, Kobe-LeBron-NBA-WNBA arguments do not scale
to the college level, nor to Ultimate. Hence claims about the
popularity of mens vs womens Ultimate that talk about athleticism are
bogus. Athleticism is not the reason why we watch sports (except
maybe at the NBA/NFL level). College or high school ties, knowing the
players, loving the game, etc. -- those are the reasons.
--MKT
moeller...@gmail.com
all up in arms about the original post happen to play for Element and
Flywheel, two of the nation's top contenders? I'm SURE that they were
just playing devil's advocate. Women who play for intense ultimate
teams looking to be taken seriously wouldn't have participated in a
girlie dance-off, right?
Oh wait.....
The point here wasn't whether or not is was "intended" for the dance-
off to be equated to the showcase game, it's that it could be
"perceived" to be equivalent. Guess what, folks? It could be perceived
that way. And that's gross. I'm a player, not a cheerleader.