YA KNOW DTB......THERES ONLY ONE WAY TO GET ME TO DROP THIS ISSUE.......
ulticritic
you wanted anyways, right? avoiding the issue is kinda like labron
and nike confiscating that video of king james getting posterized by
some hs kid, isnt it?......in that youde be better off by just coming
here and taking your medicen.
Enver
very soon...
Enver
DTB related essays on the huddle. Jessica Huynh's in particular moved
me to actually try and constructively engage you on this issue. I'm
now thinking of Attorney General Eric Holder's statement that we are a
nation of cowards for not talking about race and realized that maybe,
in terms of working toward the goal that Jessica outlined of engaging
in dialogue with no-matter-who, it was worth a try to enter a
conversation with you. That no matter how ignorant and confrontational
the person, we need to challenge and push ourselves to engage in
dialogue. Before I do that, though, I'm going to touch on why I (and I
suspect many others have refused to talk to you about this).
1. Your history on RSD suggests that rather than actually trying to
engage in dialogue you are more about pumping yourself up and knocking
others down, you're not really about constructive dialogue. This is
really why I'm even writing this message against my better judgment.
2. You've made numerous personally insulting statements about the
members of DTB based on assumptions and not facts or information. Why
would people engage with someone who does that? You've called us names
and questioned our motives and sincerity based on a few essays and
assumptions you've extrapolated based on those essays (e.g. there are
no black members of DTB - I'll address this later). When Hector, in an
effort to reach out, mentioned that he would write more on his blog,
you insulted him and said he was full of shit. Do you really think
people want to engage with someone with that kind of attitude? This is
what makes me thing that you are more about blowing hot air than
actually having a substantive discussion.
3. You've expressed some understandings and attitudes about race that,
at least to me, are pretty archaic and borderline offensive, but this
is where I'm taking the words of Attorney General Holder and Jessicah
Huynh to heart and engaging you anyway.
Now, on to the discussion. I'm going to try and wade through your
offensive language and pull out as much substance from your posts as I
can in an effort to dialogue positively. I hope you prove my
reservations overblown and respond in a constructive manner. Please
prove me wrong. If you don't, well at least I know I've tried.
First off - a little about me. I'm doing this to refute this misguided
notion you have about the member of DTB. I was not at Potlatch this
year and haven't played with DTB for several years. BUT, I was on the
original DTB team that played at Fools West in 1998 or 99, and played
for several years after that. I can tell you that several members on
that team were what we would now call black or African-American. So
your notion of who is on the team is simply inaccurate.
Next your notion about where we come from. This is a pure guess on
your part based on little to no info, but I'm going to draw on my
background to prove your assumptions wrong. I grew up in Brooklyn,
right on the edge of the Flatbush section. I've had friends jumped
into gangs and arrested for dealing crack. My brother-in-law who is
now 30 has been in prison since he was 18. I have his son, my nephew,
sitting in my house as we speak, and I can see the effects of having a
parent in prison that were mentioned in a NYT article which noted that
one in four African-Americans born in the last 10-20 years will have
one parent in prison - physical aggressiveness and social isolation.
He is visiting with me in part to have a positive male role model in
his life. Why am I bringing all this up? To prove another assumption
of yours wrong, that none of us are from "downtown" or that we are all
tokens or are out of touch with the majority of poorer African-
Americans. Those "athletically superior brothas" that you keep
referring to - how many of them do you actually know, personally?
That being said, why is it that you think people have to be poor, to
be authentic members of a racial minority group? Yes there is overlap
between race and class, but they are not identical. My background
aside, I also went to Harvard and now have a Ph.D. in history. Does
that make me any less black? You seem to think so. In fact, I will be
devoting my career to examining the concept of race from a historical
perspective. No one can define an "authentic" African-American or
other minority experience, least of all you. If you really think that
all "real" black people are athletically gifted "brothas" from the
ghetto, then you are more racist than you want to admit. You sound
like one of those kids who told me I talked "white" growing up because
I spoke proper English. I hope you think about that. I fell into your
trap a bit by going into my supposed racial bona fides, but I think
you should consider, that race makes a difference, even for those out
of touch "tokens" you seem to delight in criticizing. In fact, I think
it makes more of a difference, as they are more likely to struggle
with issues of identity in their day-to-day lives. Even those "out of
touch" people in the burbs will experience racial discrimination. Race
does not simply boil down to class, as you seem to want to think. You
knock DTB for not engaging the economic dynamic of the racial makeup
of the ultimate community, but guess what, this issue would never have
come up if not for those supposed "token out-of-touch" people you are
so intent on criticizing. These "out-of-touch" people can actually
play a significant role in bringing such issues up in bridging a gap
between those poor "brothas" that you claim to love so much and the
mostly affluent whites who play ultimate.
Now - I think you might want to re-read the essays on why people play
for DTB. I did it just because I wanted to engage with people of color
while playing the sport I love. Because being the only black person,
or even person of color, on a team gets tiresome after awhile, though
I love each and every teammate I've had over the years., regardless of
race. The reasons for playing on the team are as varied as the people
who play. Then there was the appeal of discussing the experience of
being a member of a "minority" group playing ultimate that my DTB
teammates would relate to much more easily than others. I remember one
instance at a DC summer league game when the team captain (white guy)
asked me to play deep, though I had considerable throwing skills at
the time. He took me aside and had a conversation with me about it -
acknowledging that his decision could be interpreted racially (put the
black guy deep b/c he's fast) but also indicating that this is where
he thought I could best contribute. A refreshingly frank and honest
discussion. But this is the exception in ultimate - a white player
willing to actually TALK about this. And for myself, and I suspect
many - a chance to spend a weekend with others who have had similar
experiences is simply to appealing to pass up. Do we need to have any
other motivation besides that? If so, why?
And why do you think spirit of the game is some "white boy shit?" Is
it too complicated a concept for people of color to grasp - is that
it? Is it because you think people of color are naturally more
aggressive and won't buy into that? I suspect it's for the same reason
you think Sunni's and Shiites won't embrace democracy - which, by the
way, they have in countries like Egypt, Algeria and Iran (where they
just had democratic elections, btw - yes disputed, but embraced by a
vast number of shiites who put their lives on the line to make sure
that the wishes of the majority were respected).
So there you have it Toad. Hopefully, you will read and think about
the words I've written and engage in some introspection on your own
assumptions as I have tried to do. If not (which I suspect is what
will happen) well, I can say I tried and move on...
jacob
So you're more likely to drop the issue if DTB responds to you? Your
typical pattern is to respond until you get the last word, so it seems
more probable that you would drop the issue if DTB did not respond.
"that is what you wanted anyways, right?"
Based on the DTB essays in the Huddle and based on conversations I
have had with older DTB players, I think it is fair to say that while
they are hoping to hear (and sometimes resond to) a variety of
viewpoints about race and ultimate, they are not interested in
defending their team's existence or approach. What you have said here
boils down to: "You DTB guys aren't authentic people of color and even
if you were, you aren't really doing anything worthwhile- and you're
taking too long to tell me about the worthless things you did last
weekend!" Re-read the DTB essays in the Huddle and show me where they
asked to hear stuff like this. Maybe I missed it.
"avoiding the issue is kinda like labron and nike confiscating that
video of king james getting posterized by some hs kid, isnt it?"
Terrible analogy. Nike is attempting to unilateral hide an objective
truth which it fears, while DTB is trying to cooperatively find a
subjective truth which they do not fear. (As a side note, I don't
think it has been established that Lebron had a role in confiscating
the footage of him being dunked on.)
"in that youde be better off by just coming here and taking your
medicen."
Or in Enver's case, giving you your medicine.
Jim Mallon
Bravo!
Your query about why any group decides to play together put me in mind
of some of the other collections I've seen over the years... First to
mind was Matzah Balls, of course, but there have also been all lefty
teams, all short guy teams, all red-heads...the list goes on. Each of
these groups has a shared identity that they know only someone with a
similar identity will understand. You don't think lefties feel
oppressed on occasion? Why wouldn't they want to band together and
just plain have some "us-against-the-world" fun? It's "tribal" more
than it is "racial."
Knappy
is the proper place for that sort of stuff?
Nice work.
cole ingraham
although it seems he's too busy answering posts in his war on "spirit
of the game" to come and reply. Either way, well done.
b
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks Enver.
you managed to give the dignified and complete essay that many of us
wish we could but were biting our tongues so as not to fall into the
trap of taking the low road. I Appreciate that you were able to raise
the bar and show that it is possible to have thoughtful discourse in
this forum.
-Brett
DTB 1999-2001
ulticritic
> Here we go Toad - I hope you're ready. I just finished rereading the
> DTB related essays on the huddle. Jessica Huynh's in particular moved
> me to actually try and constructively engage you on this issue. I'm
> now thinking of Attorney General Eric Holder's statement that we are a
> nation of cowards for not talking about race and realized that maybe,
> in terms of working toward the goal that Jessica outlined of engaging
> in dialogue with no-matter-who, it was worth a try to enter a
> conversation with you. That no matter how ignorant and confrontational
> the person, we need to challenge and push ourselves to engage in
> dialogue. Before I do that, though, I'm going to touch on why I (and I
> suspect many others have refused to talk to you about this).
well, i hope you arent gonna deny that most people will tip toe around
the race issue IF they even put themselves into a position to even
confront it in the first place. I guess i just aint that kind of
person so i can see how youve been stigmatized into dealing with open
discussion on the topic on a much more passive and reserved level.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. Your history on RSD suggests that rather than actually trying to
> engage in dialogue you are more about pumping yourself up and knocking
> others down,
i just calls it like i sees it.....and NEVER sugar coat it. most
people might think its in bad taste whereas i feel people cant swallow
the truth without that sugar coating
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>you're not really about constructive dialogue.
sure i am.....i just have no problem callin bullshit on someone or
somthing........nor do i feel the need to tip toe around hard and
controversial issues
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is
> really why I'm even writing this message against my better judgment.
see now i think thats kind of sad. as this is a great opportunity to
get below the surface and get to the heart of the matter of ULTIMATES
EXTREEM LACK OF BOTH RACIAL AND SOCIOECONOMIC DIVERSITY.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 2. You've made numerous personally insulting statements about the
> members of DTB based on assumptions and not facts or information.
when and where. and cant i be equally offended when a latino uses the
term "whitey", even it it was a term of enderment. cause when i use
the term nigga i get crucified. how the fuck does that work?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why
> would people engage with someone who does that?
you tell me. either way it worked for me now didnt it. cause here you
are.
------------------------------------------------------------
You've called us names
> and questioned our motives and sincerity based on a few essays and
> assumptions you've extrapolated based on those essays (e.g. there are
> no black members of DTB - I'll address this later).
isnt that my right? where does it say you cant call bullshit on
someone. as for the name calling..........one word, "whitey". that
shit works both ways
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When Hector, in an
> effort to reach out, mentioned that he would write more on his blog,
> you insulted him and said he was full of shit.
so? again, that right is covered under the freedom of speech clause
in this country
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you really think
> people want to engage with someone with that kind of attitude?
if they aint pussies
-------------------------------------------------------
This is
> what makes me thing that you are more about blowing hot air than
> actually having a substantive discussion.
eh, either way. you should just be thankful that i'm taking this to a
level in which people will have to be confronted with ideals and
traditions that are uncomfortable to them and that they might
otherwise avoid. i'm a budha like that
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 3. You've expressed some understandings and attitudes about race that,
> at least to me, are pretty archaic and borderline offensive,
good, maybe you need to be offended........ not by me but by ultimates
subtle yet overt and excusionary racism (and classism).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but this
> is where I'm taking the words of Attorney General Holder and Jessicah
> Huynh to heart and engaging you anyway.
well, i'm more likely to quote dave chapell myself
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now, on to the discussion. I'm going to try and wade through your
> offensive language and pull out as much substance from your posts as I
> can in an effort to dialogue positively.
why?
-------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you prove my
> reservations overblown and respond in a constructive manner. Please
> prove me wrong. If you don't, well at least I know I've tried.
thats mighty boyscoutish of you
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> First off - a little about me. I'm doing this to refute this misguided
> notion you have about the member of DTB. I was not at Potlatch this
> year and haven't played with DTB for several years. BUT, I was on the
> original DTB team that played at Fools West in 1998 or 99, and played
> for several years after that. I can tell you that several members on
> that team were what we would now call black or African-American. So
> your notion of who is on the team is simply inaccurate.
prove it......give me the stats
--------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Next your notion about where we come from. This is a pure guess on
> your part based on little to no info,
again.....stats please (annual incomes would help to paint the picture
too). and i'm not talkin about bumbs like hector that have college
egucations but would rather live in poverty while lettin his college
egucation go to waste just to chase around a plastic toy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but I'm going to draw on my
> background to prove your assumptions wrong. I grew up in Brooklyn,
> right on the edge of the Flatbush section.
i dont know where the fuck that is
------------------------------------------------------------------
I've had friends jumped
> into gangs and arrested for dealing crack. My brother-in-law who is
> now 30 has been in prison since he was 18.
for what?
--------------------------------------------------
I have his son, my nephew,
> sitting in my house as we speak, and I can see the effects of having a
> parent in prison that were mentioned in a NYT article which noted that
> one in four African-Americans born in the last 10-20 years will have
> one parent in prison - physical aggressiveness and social isolation.
> He is visiting with me in part to have a positive male role model in
> his life.
did your brother in law not have one in his?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why am I bringing all this up? To prove another assumption
> of yours wrong, that none of us are from "downtown" or that we are all
> tokens or are out of touch
so you are from the hood.......what about the rest of dtb?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
with the majority of poorer African-
> Americans. Those "athletically superior brothas" that you keep
> referring to - how many of them do you actually know, personally?
not many now. i live in a pretty segregated town, but being in the
construction business i work with/hire quite a few latino crews and
some black guys. and i grew up(as a navy brat) in schools that were
both mostly white and equally black and white. My best friend thought
out elementay school was black and i have adopted black and korean
cousins.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> That being said, why is it that you think people have to be poor, to
> be authentic members of a racial minority group?
ask your local politicians that..... its just the system i guess.
apartide is what i think they call it........which was pretty much the
deal up to when the civil right movement took place.......and still
kinda practiced today, even if it is subtley.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes there is overlap
> between race and class, but they are not identical.
please.......its more than just an overlap.
----------------------------------------------------------
My background
> aside, I also went to Harvard and now have a Ph.D. in history. Does
> that make me any less black?
it probably does to blacks more that it does to me but didnt obama go
to harvard? but youd have to provide me with your definition of what
exactly it means to be "black" befor i make that judegment. also i'd
probably have to meet you and see how you interact with people of
various races.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>You seem to think so.
as they say, things arent always as they seem
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, I will be
> devoting my career to examining the concept of race from a historical
> perspective.
well, give me a ring whenerver you want a very uniquely unfiltered
perspective
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one can define an "authentic" African-American or
> other minority experience, least of all you.
then why did you just ask me to?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you really think that
> all "real" black people are athletically gifted "brothas" from the
> ghetto, then you are more racist than you want to admit.
well i know that most of em that make it big are
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sound
> like one of those kids who told me I talked "white" growing up because
> I spoke proper English.
and you dont think there is any truth to that? even dave chapell said
that ALL black people have two voice tones. i think he refered to the
"white" one as the "job interview" voice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you think about that. I fell into your
> trap a bit by going into my supposed racial bona fides,
yea, i'm tricky like that.......better watch out
------------------------------------------------------------------
but I think
> you should consider, that race makes a difference, even for those out
> of touch "tokens" you seem to delight in criticizing.
well its not like i just go around publicly critisizing all token
blacks.......of which, ever watched the show southpark. they got one
black kid character besides chep/chef (WHO DEFINITLY DONT TALK
"WHITE") and his name IS token........BUT, when they/YOU are on some
kind of a racial diversity trip within the white boy sport of ultimate
then you cant deny that you, as a proponent of integrating the sport,
aint doing a whole fuck of a lot towards achieveing that end by being
in the suburbs at some isolated polo field, miles from the nearest
black neighbothood, hanging with a bunch of non racists whites. I'd
say that time would be better spent going to said black neighborhoods
and promoting the sport. and to choose the latter over th former as a
effective way to reach your desired goal is rather insincere imo. in
fact, i makes me think that you are just concerned with having fun and
all this racial integration crap is just a facade.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, I think
> it makes more of a difference, as they are more likely to struggle
> with issues of identity in their day-to-day lives.
yep, sellin out IS a struggle, aint it.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Even those "out of
> touch" people in the burbs will experience racial discrimination.
well duh.
------------------------------------------------
Race
> does not simply boil down to class, as you seem to want to think.
i think it does a lot more than you are willing to admit. but fuck
race anyways. do you really think ultimate is more racially exclusive
or class ecxlusive. I'd say both, but moreso with class.
-------------------------------------------------------------
You
> knock DTB for not engaging the economic dynamic of the racial makeup
> of the ultimate community, but guess what, this issue would never have
> come up if not for those supposed "token out-of-touch" people you are
> so intent on criticizing.
and guess waht else.......this very constructive dialouge wouldnt be
happening RIGHT NOW without ME pressing the issue and holding your
feet to the fire. which again, IS part of the mission behind dtb,
no? So, your welcome dtb
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These "out-of-touch" people can actually
> play a significant role in bringing such issues up in bridging a gap
> between those poor "brothas" that you claim to love so much and the
> mostly affluent whites who play ultimate.
not by you hangin in the burbs at some upity polo fields
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now - I think you might want to re-read the essays on why people play
> for DTB. I did it just because I wanted to engage with people of color
> while playing the sport I love. Because being the only black person,
> or even person of color, on a team gets tiresome after awhile
uhmm, that wasnt what i got outa hectors prepotlatch blog post
------------------------------------------------------------------
, though
> I love each and every teammate I've had over the years., regardless of
> race. The reasons for playing on the team are as varied as the people
> who play. Then there was the appeal of discussing the experience of
> being a member of a "minority" group playing ultimate that my DTB
> teammates would relate to much more easily than others.
dont forget about the part where you encourage dialouge with people of
any and every backround..........which is where were at right now
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember one
> instance at a DC summer league game when the team captain (white guy)
> asked me to play deep, though I had considerable throwing skills at
> the time. He took me aside and had a conversation with me about it -
> acknowledging that his decision could be interpreted racially (put the
> black guy deep b/c he's fast)
uhmm, seems like your presupposed racial bias about the genetic
superiority of blacks to whites are no different than mine.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but also indicating that this is where
> he thought I could best contribute. A refreshingly frank and honest
> discussion. But this is the exception in ultimate - a white player
> willing to actually TALK about this.
so why dont you find it refreshing that i want to talk about this. is
it because i'm challanging you to confront stuff most white people
would NEVER even consider broaching?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And for myself, and I suspect
> many - a chance to spend a weekend with others who have had similar
> experiences is simply to appealing to pass up. Do we need to have any
> other motivation besides that? If so, why?
i say no......but i'm not the one that expected or asked you do bring
up the whole racial diversity/integration part of it. that was ALL
you guys. i'm just responding(at you guys request) to it. dont be a
hater just because you dont like my response
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> And why do you think spirit of the game is some "white boy shit?"
cause it is.......and because ive herd it be phrased that way from the
lips of brothahs
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is
> it too complicated a concept for people of color to grasp
nah, i'd say its too fuckin gay for most of em.....just like it is
with most hard core athletes
------------------------------------------------------------------
- is that
> it? Is it because you think people of color are naturally more
> aggressive and won't buy into that?
nope, just not as gay......in a spirity kinda way that is
--------------------------------------------------------
I suspect it's for the same reason
> you think Sunni's and Shiites won't embrace democracy - which, by the
> way, they have in countries like Egypt, Algeria and Iran (where they
> just had democratic elections, btw - yes disputed, but embraced by a
> vast number of shiites who put their lives on the line to make sure
> that the wishes of the majority were respected).
whatever
-----------------------------------------------------
>
> So there you have it Toad. Hopefully, you will read and think about
> the words I've written and engage in some introspection on your own
eh, ive done my fair share of introspection. either way, me doing
that aint gonna help ultimate become racially integrated
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> assumptions as I have tried to do. If not (which I suspect is what
> will happen) well, I can say I tried and move on...
and i do thank you for that. at least one of ya stepped up.......and
now maybe more will follow. Just remember who was the catalist here
ulticritic
> "Which is you guys coming to the table to discussing it."
>
> So you're more likely to drop the issue if DTB responds to you?
Do i studder?
------------------------------------------------
Your
> typical pattern is to respond until you get the last word,
i guess i got more time on my hand than most. Also, dont know if you
are familiar with the show "around the horn"....but the winner of the
debated topics ALWAYS gets the final word.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so it seems
> more probable that you would drop the issue if DTB did not respond.
like i told whats his face, things arent always as they seem
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "that is what you wanted anyways, right?"
>
> Based on the DTB essays in the Huddle and based on conversations I
> have had with older DTB players, I think it is fair to say that while
> they are hoping to hear (and sometimes resond to) a variety of
> viewpoints about race and ultimate, they are not interested in
> defending their team's existence or approach.
to bad. i guess they shouldnt have been so encouraging and flourished
it so.
-----------------------------------------------------
What you have said here
> boils down to: "You DTB guys aren't authentic people of color and even
> if you were, you aren't really doing anything worthwhile- and you're
> taking too long to tell me about the worthless things you did last
> weekend!"
not quite
---------------------------------------------------
Re-read the DTB essays in the Huddle and show me where they
> asked to hear stuff like this. Maybe I missed it.
then you reread it.
------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "avoiding the issue is kinda like labron and nike confiscating that
> video of king james getting posterized by some hs kid, isnt it?"
>
> Terrible analogy. Nike is attempting to unilateral hide an objective
> truth which it fears,
so is dtb......which is that there efforts are somewhat
insincere.......imo, which i have every to express, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
while DTB is trying to cooperatively find a
> subjective truth which they do not fear.
maybe they dont fear it because they havent confronted it........and
maybe they havent confronted it because noone has challenged them to
confront it
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
(As a side note, I don't
> think it has been established that Lebron had a role in confiscating
> the footage of him being dunked on.)
you dont watch near as much espn as i do
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "in that youde be better off by just coming here and taking your
> medicen."
>
> Or in Enver's case, giving you your medicine.
pfft, bring it it what i say........which he did, and i applaud him
for that. but he didnt change my mind about their superficial plight
3jane.
> you managed to give the dignified and complete essay that many of us
> wish we could but were biting our tongues so as not to fall into the
> trap of taking the low road. I Appreciate that you were able to raise
> the bar and show that it is possible to have thoughtful discourse in
> this forum.
> -Brett
> DTB 1999-2001
I'm beginning to think that Toad may actually be serving the greater
good, he did iniate this thread after all.
jermleeds
ulticritic
see here enver, this is exactly what i'm talkin about with white
people. they dont want to confront the race issue......ironically any
more than most want to confront the ref issue. so i guess this is the
other side about thats kinda disengenuious about the whole thing/
effort. now i'm all about youall "tribin" up, as jim implied and
whoppin some ass at a tourny, but i dont think the fact that 99.9% of
the people that play ultimate are white is really gonna change, nor
are they concerned with it changin. In fact most dont really want it
to change. Its almost as if its being horded. not really racially
but athletically.....which in itself is a big overlap of potential
race integration
Another ironic thing is that it will likely be the same thing that
will get ultimate to be how i want it to be that will REALLY break
down some racial barriers in this sport just as it has done in a lot
of others.....which is making the sport more official to where it gets
in the PUBLIC schools.....where the best athleats in the school
(specifically football and basketball players that dont play a spring
sport............and in my neck of the woods, most of them dudes are
black) join the team, for cross training and/or encouraged by a
teacher/coach that is/was an ulti player, or maybe even to get a
college scholarship.
wix
> is the proper place for that sort of stuff?
>
> Nice work.
>
Knappy, why not? This is exactly what RSD could use more of.
/\/\isra
>term "whitey", even it it was a term of enderment. cause when i use
>the term nigga i get crucified. how the fuck does that work?
Have any rogue Latino Rec.Sport.Disc posters been calling you this? Do
you feel comfortable using the derogatory slang against the supposed
"token" players that have gone through DTB? Are these "token" players
using offensive language towards you? Can someone be equally offended
by self made-up derogatory situations as compared reality?
ulticritic
> >when and where. and cant i be equally offended when a latino uses the
> >term "whitey", even it it was a term of enderment. cause when i use
> >the term nigga i get crucified. how the fuck does that work?
>
> Have any rogue Latino Rec.Sport.Disc posters been calling you this?
do i have to be called it to be offended by its use......by a non-
whitey? that isnt how the n-word works
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do
> you feel comfortable using the derogatory slang against the supposed
> "token" players that have gone through DTB?
what derogetory slang did i use?
-----------------------------------------------
Are these "token" players
> using offensive language towards you?
nah, but i was offended that none of em would respond to me after
publicly encouraging me to broch this whole subject with them. i
thought that was a little exclusive on their part.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can someone be equally offended
> by self made-up derogatory situations as compared reality?
??????????????????? ya lost me on that one
Enver
> On Jul 9, 3:46 pm, Enver <env...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> well, i hope you arent gonna deny that most people will tip toe around
> the race issue IF they even put themselves into a position to even
> confront it in the first place. I guess i just aint that kind of
> person so i can see how youve been stigmatized into dealing with open
> discussion on the topic on a much more passive and reserved level.
Yes, you are correct. Most people will tip-toe around the race issue.
That is because, as Mike Namkung pointed out in his essay, race is an
emotionally charged, and at times extremely difficult, topic to talk
about. My point here is that, without people like the downtown brown
crew it wouldn't get brought up in ultimate at all (or at least a lot
less frequently). You want to take credit for bringing it up, but you
never would have done had it not been for the huddle issue and DTB's
very existence. The very group you want to criticize as out of touch
is the very group that truly initiated this discussion, not you. And
please don't give me that crap about not wanting to talk about it on
RSD. DTB members have shown that they are willing to talk about it
face-to-face, a much more difficult task. I submit that just because
people don't want to engage in what you deem to be the end all of fora
(the plural of forum, btw) does not make them cowards. It could be
that they just don't want to deal with you.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> > 1. Your history on RSD suggests that rather than actually trying to
> > engage in dialogue you are more about pumping yourself up and knocking
> > others down,
> i just calls it like i sees it.....and NEVER sugar coat it. most
> people might think its in bad taste whereas i feel people cant swallow
> the truth without that sugar coating
well you might want to think about that. What you call sugar coating
is what others call civil discourse and (in my experience) is more
likely to lead to actual engagement. And if people can't swallow the
truth without sugar coating, then why not sugar coat it? Again - is
that really what you want?
> >you're not really about constructive dialogue.
>
> This is
>
> > really why I'm even writing this message against my better judgment.
>
> see now i think thats kind of sad. as this is a great opportunity to
> get below the surface and get to the heart of the matter of ULTIMATES
> EXTREEM LACK OF BOTH RACIAL AND SOCIOECONOMIC DIVERSITY.
I agree that it's kind of sad. But why would I want to get below the
surface on this issue when right off the bat you ask "who is the
huddle kidding with all this race shit?" This indicates to me that you
actually DONT want to talk about it.
> > 2. You've made numerous personally insulting statements about the
> > members of DTB based on assumptions and not facts or information.
> when and where.
When and where? Are you really asking this question? OK:
1. On July 8 at 11:08 pm you suggested we were all "uptown tokens"
based on what you yourself admitted was an assumption ("I'm willing to
bet the house" were the words you used).
2. In the same post you called us insincere without having even met
any of us. (Maybe you have met one of us, I admit here that I don't
really the fact of the matter here).
3. In the same post you said we all shun our ethnic roots. I
personally consider this insulting
4. Later that day (8:19 pm to be exact) you again called us tokens, as
well as posers - how anyone can be a "poser" black, asian or latino is
beyond me, but hey, maybe you know more about race and people of color
than I do.
5. An hour and a half later you decided Hector was only going to feed
us "bullshit" before he even said anything.
6. In that same post you stated that none of us have ever been
"downtown." Which is simply wrong. I grew up "downtown" as I'm sure
other DTB'ers have. Again this is based on an assumption, no facts
whatsoever.
7. In that same post (July 8th 9:52 pm in case anyone is keeping
track) you called the "racial diversity awareness stuff" "a crock of
shit." Again suggesting that you don't really have an interest in
actually having a substantive discussion.
>and cant i be equally offended when a latino uses the
> term "whitey", even it it was a term of enderment. cause when i use
> the term nigga i get crucified. how the fuck does that work?
Of course you can. Please point out to me when this happened in THIS
PARTICULAR DISCUSSION. That some random person called you whitey or
cracker last week or five years ago is not that relevant to this
discussion. It seems to me that here you are changing the subject a
bit. My point is that you discouraged constructive dialogue on this
topic with your language and style of discourse. Your justification is
that someone called you whitey at some point I don't know when. This
is lame from my perspective.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why
>
> > would people engage with someone who does that?
>
> you tell me. either way it worked for me now didnt it. cause here you
> are.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
Yes and no. I did it in spite of your style, not because of it. And
not a single other person has engaged with you. It could be, as I'm
sure you'll suggest because they are pussies or because your "in your
face style" is too much for them. I would encourage you to consider
other possibilities.
> You've called us names
>
> > and questioned our motives and sincerity based on a few essays and
> > assumptions you've extrapolated based on those essays (e.g. there are
> > no black members of DTB - I'll address this later).
>
> isnt that my right? where does it say you cant call bullshit on
> someone. as for the name calling..........one word, "whitey". that
> shit works both ways
Of course it's your right. But do you really think that fosters true
discussion? How is that style working for you? If you want to keep
using it of course it's your right - but I think it's highly
ineffective, which is my point here. I also think you misunderstood
me. I'm not talking racial slurs (which no one in this particular
discussion has used as far as I can tell) I'm talking about insults to
people you claim to want to have a conversation with - you seem very
attached to that mode of interacting. Best of luck with that.
> Do you really think
>
> > people want to engage with someone with that kind of attitude?
>
> if they aint pussies
Again, keep believing that, if you want, and good luck.
> eh, either way. you should just be thankful that i'm taking this to a
> level in which people will have to be confronted with ideals and
> traditions that are uncomfortable to them and that they might
> otherwise avoid. i'm a budha like that
Your not taking it to any level - on this you're really just
delusional. What ideals and traditions are you talking about anyway?
I've decided to engage you based on words from Jessica, Mike Namkung
and our Attorney General and some introspection on my part. No one
else has really even bothered. Again, I encourage you to think about
that.
> > 3. You've expressed some understandings and attitudes about race that,
> > at least to me, are pretty archaic and borderline offensive,
>
> good, maybe you need to be offended........ not by me but by ultimates
> subtle yet overt and excusionary racism (and classism).
Now you're just talking out of your ass - something simply cannot be
subtle and overt at the same time.
But enough about your style, on to the actual subject at hand.
> > First off - a little about me. I'm doing this to refute this misguided
> > notion you have about the member of DTB. I was not at Potlatch this
> > year and haven't played with DTB for several years. BUT, I was on the
> > original DTB team that played at Fools West in 1998 or 99, and played
> > for several years after that. I can tell you that several members on
> > that team were what we would now call black or African-American. So
> > your notion of who is on the team is simply inaccurate.
>
> prove it......give me the stats
Why don't you prove your assumptions to me and give me your stats? I
have way more experience with the team than you do. You claimed that
there were no African-Americans on the team. Based on that statement,
I've already proven you wrong.
> > Next your notion about where we come from. This is a pure guess on
> > your part based on little to no info,
> again.....stats please (annual incomes would help to paint the picture
> too).
Do you really think I have these stats? I don't. But that doesn't
change the fact that I have more info than you. BTW annual income now
is not necessarily a good indicator of one's background. Judge Sonia
Sotomayor is a Federal judge who I'm sure makes a comfortable living,
but she grew up in the South Bronx which, I promise you, is nowhere
near the burbs.
> > background to prove your assumptions wrong. I grew up in Brooklyn,
> > right on the edge of the Flatbush section.
>
> i dont know where the fuck that is
It sure ain't the burbs
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've had friends jumped
>
> > into gangs and arrested for dealing crack. My brother-in-law who is
> > now 30 has been in prison since he was 18.
>
> for what?
If you must know, manslaughter and armed robbery. Am I black enough
for you now?
> > That being said, why is it that you think people have to be poor, to
> > be authentic members of a racial minority group?
>
> ask your local politicians that..... its just the system i guess.
> apartide is what i think they call it........which was pretty much the
> deal up to when the civil right movement took place.......and still
> kinda practiced today, even if it is subtley.
No it's not just the system - I am asking about your understanding of
what it means to be an "authentic" member of a minority group. So any
person of color who becomes financially successful is automatically
turning their back on their race? That leaves quite a conundrum don't
you think? I can either try my best to make a comfortable living and
have a good life, or I can continue to be "really" black? What the
hell kind of choice is that?
You don't think someone can be rich and still confront racial
discrimination? Do you think when I'm followed in Macy's they ask me
what my annual income is? If I get pulled over by a cop do you think
he asks me where I went to college?
> Yes there is overlap
>
> > between race and class, but they are not identical.
>
> please.......its more than just an overlap.
I'm not really sure what you are saying here. If they were identical
though we wouldn't need different terms, we could just say class and
be done with it. There is a lot more to race than class. Here we'll
just have to agree to disagree.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> My background
>
> > aside, I also went to Harvard and now have a Ph.D. in history. Does
> > that make me any less black?
>
> it probably does to blacks more that it does to me but didnt obama go
> to harvard? but youd have to provide me with your definition of what
> exactly it means to be "black" befor i make that judegment. also i'd
> probably have to meet you and see how you interact with people of
> various races.
Why do you need my definition of black to make this judgment? What is
YOUR judgment based on YOUR own definition? My answer to that
question, is no, it doesn't. I may be far more privileged than most
blacks in this country, but that does not make me any less black, and
I still think about, and am confronted by, issues relating to race in
my daily life. As is everyone else who has played on DTB. This applies
to East and South Asians as well as blacks and Latinos.
You seem to want to boil race down to class - but there really is much
more to it than that. And you use that identity to slam DTB as a bunch
of posers who aren't really engaging race. Again, here we'll probably
have to agree to disagree.
> >You seem to think so.
>
> as they say, things arent always as they seem
OK - so tell me what things "are" and not what they "seem." Give me an
answer - engage in the dialogue that you insist want to stir up. Which
brings up a point you never addressed - why do you think spirit of the
game is "some white boy shit?" You don't believe in it - does that
make you any less white?
Now on your point about socioeconomic dynamics I think there is some
merit there. But it doesn't simply boil down to cost. Truthfully
ultimate is not that expensive to play. It takes a piece of plastic
and some open space. In fact, it's less expensive to play than
football. Yes it takes money to travel and compete at the highest
levels, but playing pickup on the regular is actually pretty cheap.
As far as reaching out to children of color from disadvantaged
backgrounds, I know for a fact that at least one DTB member has done
this; it actually came up in one of our post-tourney circles nearly a
decade ago. So again, those "out of touch token brownies" are raising
these issues that haven't been raised before. Again just because they
don't go blasting it on RSD doesn't mean they aren't dealing with it
in other ways. There's a whole world out there beyond RSD, believe it
or not. And even if we didn't address issues of class, that does not
make our desire to think about race any less authentic - though you
seem to want to believe it does.
Also I believe that children of color (regardless of socioeconomic
status) are more likely to think about playing a sport when they see
someone who looks like them playing it. Consider Tiger Woods and the
Williams sisters. I think they probably stimulate tons of interest
among African-Americans in golf and tennis without even lifting a
finger to reach out. People still identify along racial lines, and
this (from my perspective) has little to do with class.
OK I'm done here because I have a life to go live and other things to
deal with. At some level, Toad, in your own way you have opened up
space for dialogue, but I really think you could find more effective
ways to do that, both on this discussion and others. But hey that's
who you are and it's your life and you're the only one who has to live
it. Best of luck and thanks for talking with me.
Enver
seanc
well, 3jane, as much as you like to come to toad's defense, toad may
have started this thread, but dtb started the discussion in the first
place.
enver, very nicely put. i know you sought solace in simply making the
attempt, but you do the rest of us good as well.
sean
ulticritic
>
> Yes, you are correct. Most people will tip-toe around the race issue.
> That is because, as Mike Namkung pointed out in his essay, race is an
> emotionally charged, and at times extremely difficult, topic to talk
> about.
not for me
------------------------------
My point here is that, without people like the downtown brown
> crew it wouldn't get brought up in ultimate at all (or at least a lot
> less frequently). You want to take credit for bringing it up, but you
> never would have done had it not been for the huddle issue and DTB's
> very existence.
i know this, and i give both you and the huddle props for doing
so.....just dont cut me out of the loop as i think i can be very
helpful in gettin through the initial (and somewhat superficial
layers). So by ignoring me it kinda tells me that you guys would
rather keep it all on the surface.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
?The very group you want to criticize as out of touch
i never said the huddle is out of touch
--------------------------------------------------------------
> is the very group that truly initiated this discussion, not you.
great, props to them
-------------------------------------------------------
And
> please don't give me that crap about not wanting to talk about it on
> RSD. DTB members have shown that they are willing to talk about it
> face-to-face, a much more difficult task.
well it aint likely that i would ever get face time with any of ya
so.....
and also, as a budha, i feel a certian responsibility to enlighten
others that might have otherwise missed out on such a contoversial but
nessesary topic as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I submit that just because
> people don't want to engage in what you deem to be the end all of fora
> (the plural of forum, btw) does not make them cowards. It could be
> that they just don't want to deal with you.
even if dealing with me proves to be the most effective way of getting
to the heart of the matter????? thats wierd. kinda like thowing out
the baby with the bathwater imo
---------------------------------------------------------
>
> well you might want to think about that. What you call sugar coating
> is what others call civil discourse and (in my experience) is more
> likely to lead to actual engagement.
well lets find out
----------------------------------------------
And if people can't swallow the
> truth without sugar coating, then why not sugar coat it?
because one can often come accross as insincere
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Again - is
> that really what you want?
to program people into being able to take the truth straight???? FUCK
YES!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I agree that it's kind of sad. But why would I want to get below the
> surface on this issue when right off the bat you ask "who is the
> huddle kidding with all this race shit?" This indicates to me that you
> actually DONT want to talk about it.
eh, i'm an antagonist, what can i say. and as far a journalism goes i
find it to be a much more compelling and entertaining (therefore
effective) format.
--------------------------------------------------------------
>
> When and where? Are you really asking this question? OK:
>
> 1. On July 8 at 11:08 pm you suggested we were all "uptown tokens"
> based on what you yourself admitted was an assumption ("I'm willing to
> bet the house" were the words you used).
well, again that was just simple antagonism used to draw you guys out
of your shell.......which, i guess, finally worked.
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 2. In the same post you called us insincere without having even met
> any of us. (Maybe you have met one of us, I admit here that I don't
> really the fact of the matter here).
well the term "insincere" was just a word from a phrase that i took
directly out of one of the huddles articals. So i was just offering a
paradoxical twist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 3. In the same post you said we all shun our ethnic roots. I
> personally consider this insulting
well didnt you, in your initial response say somthing about how you
were usually the only person of color on many of the teams you play
on? so wouldnt you(or ANY person of color that plays ulti on a
regular basis) HAVE to shun your own kind in order to do that?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 4. Later that day (8:19 pm to be exact) you again called us tokens
well, do you feel you are a "token" black? (amoungst a sea of
whites)? isnt that pretty much the definition of a "token". I mean,
i know EXACTLY what ther term "whitey" means and i know i'm one. So
how is me using that term any different from h usning the w-word?
----------------------------------------------------------------
, as
> well as posers
c'mon now, are you really offended that i called you a poser?
--------------------------------------------------------------
- how anyone can be a "poser" black, asian or latino is
> beyond me,
you misinterpret......i was just saying your plight to bridge the
racial gag is poser-ish. You guys seem to be trying to come accross
as revolutionaries with all the posturing but in reality you aint
really doing shit to enlighten people to the gross yet subtle racial
exclusion of people of color in ultimate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
but hey, maybe you know more about race and people of color
> than I do.
or maybe i'm just more honest about it. Either way, i can offer a
very unique and unfiltered perspective that you wont likely be able to
draw out of your average ultimate player
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 5. An hour and a half later you decided Hector was only going to feed
> us "bullshit" before he even said anything.
again, just trying to creat a little urgancy. this is a great topic
and rather than wait and contimplate it i think people should just say
what comes to mind......whithout over thinking it.
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 6. In that same post you stated that none of us have ever been
> "downtown." Which is simply wrong. I grew up "downtown" as I'm sure
> other DTB'ers have. Again this is based on an assumption, no facts
> whatsoever.
well then the burden of proof is on you then isnt it. and let me clue
ya in on a little nugget. Most white people look at blacks
differently than asians, indians or latinos. Dont ask me why.....we
just do. And i'm sure other white people will deny it but it is the
case. Maybe it has somthing to do with slavery and redemption but i
think its a lot easier for those groups to integrate into white
society than blacks.......therefore, its hard for me to believe that
most of those "brownies" didnt come from a middle class suburban
origin. but hey, i could be wrong and would be more than willing to
admit that if you were to prove it to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 7. In that same post (July 8th 9:52 pm in case anyone is keeping
> track) you called the "racial diversity awareness stuff" "a crock of
> shit." Again suggesting that you don't really have an interest in
> actually having a substantive discussion.
how is that offensive? you should be appreciative that i'm being
honest and forthright? would you rather me stroke your ego, say good
job dtb but in my mind call bullshit on you.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Of course you can.
well i'm not.....cause thats what i am.....a fucking white boy,
honkey, cracka. And i anit proud, but i am what i am.
-----------------------------------------------------
Please point out to me when this happened in THIS
> PARTICULAR DISCUSSION.
why does it have to be in this discussion. cant it just have happened
in discussion about this issue? read hectors blog
--------------------------------------------------
That some random person called you whitey or
> cracker last week or five years ago is not that relevant to this
> discussion.
first off, no one called me that, but hector did call some other white
people that.
--------------------------------------------------------------
It seems to me that here you are changing the subject a
> bit. My point is that you discouraged constructive dialogue on this
> topic with your language and style of discourse.
well isnt that a matter of opinion........and isnt that based on what
one deems to be constructive OR and acceptable (or prefered) style of
discorse.
Is my approach too blatent for you. IMO thats often the most
efficient and effective way to get to the heart of the matter. and
the fact that you oppose that strategy tells me that you really dont
want to get to the heart of the matter......which is where that poser
call came in
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Your justification is
> that someone called you whitey at some point I don't know when. This
> is lame from my perspective.
actually i was called a honkey once while waiting to get a massage
from a native american woman that i frequent by a 5 year old kid next
door.......and it did make me feel a little bad. and there were no
other words exchanged, just some brief eye contact followed by the
words "you a honkey". but what could i say.....he was right.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yes and no. I did it in spite of your style, not because of it.
whatever pays the bills it what i always say
--------------------------------------------------------
And
> not a single other person has engaged with you.
no big shock there......they are all white(or at least 99.9% of em
are). they dont want to touch this issue with a ten foot pole. As
for your team mates, maybe they see some truth in what i say and dont
want to be real about it themselfs either.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
It could be, as I'm
> sure you'll suggest because they are pussies or because your "in your
> face style" is too much for them. I would encourage you to consider
> other possibilities.
like what?
------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Of course it's your right. But do you really think that fosters true
> discussion?
do you think your little post game discussion circle do? if so what
kind?
------------------------------------------------------------
>How is that style working for you?
not bad, like i said, i seem to have a pretty indepth discussion going
with you. i mean, we still need to get past your problem with "my
style", but i think we are making some headway here.
------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to keep
> using it of course it's your right
gee thanks......getting your approval is soooooooooooooooooo important
to me.
---------------------------------------------------------
- but I think it's highly
> ineffective, which is my point here.
opinion
------------------------------------------------
I also think you misunderstood
> me. I'm not talking racial slurs (which no one in this particular
> discussion has used as far as I can tell) I'm talking about insults to
> people you claim to want to have a conversation with - you seem very
> attached to that mode of interacting. Best of luck with that.
well, i find it insulting for you to ignore my efforts to respond to
your requests to engage in discussion
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Again, keep believing that, if you want, and good luck.
the thuth often hurts.......so i'm quite used to people avoiding it
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Your not taking it to any level
sure i am......which is a mcu less "sugar coated one"
- on this you're really just
> delusional. What ideals and traditions are you talking about anyway?
the ideals and traditions of a segregated society like the little
society that is ultimate. Do you really think that these fun loving
weekend wariors want their sport to be invaded by your normal
althletic black jock type of people? i dont? i think they want to
hoard it for themselfs......save the occasional token black that talks
like a white guy. And ive already explained that whites arent nearly
as threatened(or maybe just more tollerant of) by asians, indiand and
latinos. hate to break it to ya bro, but dats just the way it is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I've decided to engage you based on words from Jessica, Mike Namkung
> and our Attorney General and some introspection on my part.
well cant jesseca and mike speak for themselves.....and i dont know
what the fuck you keep talking about with this attourny general guy.
---------------------------------------------------------------
No one
> else has really even bothered. Again, I encourage you to think about
> that.
well maybe they just dont want to confron the issue. thats completely
understandable. I'm sure youll find plenty of white people that dont
really want to deal with even your watered down attempt to open the
lines of discussion. weak hearts is what i call them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now you're just talking out of your ass - something simply cannot be
> subtle and overt at the same time.
sure it can.....thats the definition of paradoxical isnt it. and come
on enver, do you really think your white ultimate breatheren have any/
many people of color in there lives that they associate with even semi
regularly? maybe you should inquire. I think you might be in a
certian state of denial with the depth of this problem.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> But enough about your style, on to the actual subject at hand.
thank god
---------------------------------------------------------------
.
>
> > prove it......give me the stats
>
> Why don't you prove your assumptions to me and give me your stats?
ok, heres a stat, ultimate is played by 99.9% white people
--------------------------------------------------------------
I
> have way more experience with the team than you do. You claimed that
> there were no African-Americans on the team. Based on that statement,
> I've already proven you wrong.
but how many (what percentage)? i saw a team picture at fools west???
and it seemed there were only 1 or 2 afro americans.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do you really think I have these stats?
just ball park it then
----------------------------------------------------------
I don't. But that doesn't
> change the fact that I have more info than you.
then share it
---------------------------------------------------
BTW annual income now
> is not necessarily a good indicator of one's background. Judge Sonia
> Sotomayor is a Federal judge who I'm sure makes a comfortable living,
> but she grew up in the South Bronx which, I promise you, is nowhere
> near the burbs.
eh, there are always exceptions to the rules. also, that just might
mean that its easier for a poor black sista to become a judge thant to
find an ultimate team to join........which again, dont say much for
ultimates racial (or class) inclusion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It sure ain't the burbs
is it the seam between the burbs and the hood
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If you must know, manslaughter and armed robbery. Am I black enough
> for you now?
i still cant make that judgement just based on you having dumbass
violent friends. is that how YOU define blackness? personally i dont
define it by doing stupid shit as much as i define it on basic
coolness
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > That being said, why is it that you think people have to be poor, to
> > > be authentic members of a racial minority group?
not saying they have to be poor.........just that most are. and you
seem to be ignoring/avoiding this fact.
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> No it's not just the system - I am asking about your understanding of
> what it means to be an "authentic" member of a minority group.
wow, that would be pretty deep......and since you aint all that
receptive to my views so far, i'll just save us both some typing
there.......but the black phrase "keepin it real" does come to mind.
-----------------------------------------------------------
So any
> person of color who becomes financially successful is automatically
> turning their back on their race?
fuck no.....but you must admit, theres a big difference between jim
brown and tiger woods
------------------------------------------------
That leaves quite a conundrum don't
> you think?
no i dont......and, from what i understand, neither does jim brown
-----------------------------------------------------
I can either try my best to make a comfortable living and
> have a good life, or I can continue to be "really" black? What the
> hell kind of choice is that?
thats the choice our society seems to give black people. and the fact
that you dont want to accept this says a lot to me about you.
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You don't think someone can be rich and still confront racial
> discrimination?
sure.....but that dosent mean there arent rich blacvks that dont want
to fight racial discrimination because it could upset there financial
status in this here white mans world (or country at least). you
surely arent gonna agrue that. and i'll point to the jim brown/tiger
woods descrepancy again.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think when I'm followed in Macy's they ask me
> what my annual income is? If I get pulled over by a cop do you think
> he asks me where I went to college?
no, you get lumped in based on ethnicity alone. and this is the
distinction i'm trying to convey between blacks as a minority and
asians.indians/latinos.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm not really sure what you are saying here.
i think you are....its that you just dont want to hear it
-------------------------------------------------------------
If they were identical
> though we wouldn't need different terms, we could just say class and
> be done with it.
eh, lota poor crackas out there too. of course i feel there are alot
of uncovered issues that go all the way back to slavery
-------------------------------------------------------
There is a lot more to race than class. Here we'll
> just have to agree to disagree.
well in ultimate, which is worse.......the racial exclusion or the
socio-economic exclusion. everyone always says how cheap it is to
start playin ulti.....but they always fail to mention how expensive it
can be to KEEP playin it. So why dosent dtb push for competitive
formats that are more condusive for poor people that, in turn would
undoubtedly attract mor blacks to the sport.......a lot more than your
little post game discussion circles anyways.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > it probably does to blacks more that it does to me but didnt obama go
> > to harvard? but youd have to provide me with your definition of what
> > exactly it means to be "black" befor i make that judegment. also i'd
> > probably have to meet you and see how you interact with people of
> > various races.
>
> Why do you need my definition of black to make this judgment?
cause you asked the question. so for me to accurately answer it i
would need to know precicely what your definition is first.
------------------------------------------------------------------
What is
> YOUR judgment based on YOUR own definition?
my judgement is that no, going to harvard dosent nessisarily make you
less black........neither does marrieing a white woman (look at chuch
barkley). this is why i'd say i'd really have to meet you and watch
you interact with both blacks and whites. BUT, if you say you talk
like a white boy and you play ultimate i'm gonna just naturally assume
that you are knda tokenish. Do you feel at all that you are (for lack
of a better term) a token black and/or that other white people in your
social circles feel you are a token black? have you ever inquired or
speculated as to how many other black friend your white ultimate
friends have/hag with......and would the be also considered "tokens"
iyo?
----------------------------------------------------------------
My answer to that
> question, is no, it doesn't. I may be far more privileged than most
> blacks in this country, but that does not make me any less black, and
> I still think about, and am confronted by, issues relating to race in
> my daily life. As is everyone else who has played on DTB. This applies
> to East and South Asians as well as blacks and Latinos.
well, from my side of the fence i can tell you that there are
differences in how blacks are percieved in comparison to those other
races. It may be subtle but there are definitely differences.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You seem to want to boil race down to class
nope, i'm just being real about the fact that thats how it is. It
definitely aint right, but it is. AND this is somthing that i hear
often from many militant black revolutionaries from bob marley to
jesse jackson
------------------------------------------------------------------
- but there really is much
> more to it than that.
dosent seem so in ultimate as its more than obvious that both of those
minorities (althought i 'd say people in poverty represent a definite
majority) are overtly absent from the playing field
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And you use that identity to slam DTB as a bunch
> of posers who aren't really engaging race. Again, here we'll probably
> have to agree to disagree.
well, show me the difference you guys are making with your present
plight......then compare it to the difference that same group would
have going to the hood and turning on poor blacks to ulti rather than
being the only team of color at an all white tourny.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OK - so tell me what things "are" and not what they "seem." Give me an
> answer
a lot of stuff......like the sincerity of dtbs mission for one.....to
me anyways
-----------------------------------------------------------
- engage in the dialogue that you insist want to stir up. Which
> brings up a point you never addressed - why do you think spirit of the
> game is "some white boy shit?"
i thought i answered this. it spirity gayness. maybe it because of
its hippy origins too......of which there werent a whole lot of blacks
that were part of that movement either. ever seen woodstock. there
were probably more black performers than audience members at that
event.
------------------------------------------------------------
You don't believe in it - does that
> make you any less white?
no, it makes me less gay
------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now on your point about socioeconomic dynamics I think there is some
> merit there.
just some???
------------------------------------------------
But it doesn't simply boil down to cost. Truthfully
> ultimate is not that expensive to play.
well when i quit playing i was astonished by all the extra coin i
seemed to have
-----------------------------------------------------------
It takes a piece of plastic
> and some open space.
who you kiddin man!!!! it take money AND TIME (and time IS money) to
travel in orer to play competitively. And how many of those people at
tournies do you think have their well to do mommies and daddies
sponsoring their ultimate excersions????
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, it's less expensive to play than
> football.Yes it takes money to travel and compete at the highest
> levels, but playing pickup on the regular is actually pretty cheap.
whats the point of joining the sport if your are reduced to simply
playing pickup.....which is usually coed, always with no refs, very
unofficial/informal and therefore completely unrewarding to a
competitive athlete.
do you really think a poor black kid will get just as much
satisfaction out of playing ultimate on a club sport level while also
being confined to playing it locally or playing football on a varsity
level while playing locally. AND do you really think there would be
that much of a cost difference in the two?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> As far as reaching out to children of color from disadvantaged
> backgrounds, I know for a fact that at least one DTB member has done
> this;
one is WEAK. those kids need to see your whole team roll up and put
on a clinic.......that is if you really want to leave an impression on
them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
it actually came up in one of our post-tourney circles nearly a
> decade ago. So again, those "out of touch token brownies" are raising
> these issues that haven't been raised before.
raising issues and action are two different things. and its
completely apparent that you guys arent willing to sacrifice your
weekend in the burbs in white-ville to REALLY go downt town
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Again just because they
> don't go blasting it on RSD doesn't mean they aren't dealing with it
> in other ways.
rsd is a great tool. dont know why you guys wouldnt want to use it to
get the word out.
-----------------------------------------------------
There's a whole world out there beyond RSD, believe it
> or not. And even if we didn't address issues of class, that does not
> make our desire to think about race any less authentic - though you
> seem to want to believe it does.
damn straight....
-----------------------------------------------
>
> Also I believe that children of color (regardless of socioeconomic
> status) are more likely to think about playing a sport when they see
> someone who looks like them playing it.
which is why being a some polo field miles from the nearsest black kid
aint gonna do much
-----------------------------------------------------
Consider Tiger Woods and the
> Williams sisters.
those sports are on tv though......and EVERYBODIES got a tv.
--------------------------------------------------------
I think they probably stimulate tons of interest
> among African-Americans in golf and tennis without even lifting a
> finger to reach out. People still identify along racial lines, and
> this (from my perspective) has little to do with class.
ultimates got a long way to go before it can achieve tha same exposure
as golf or tennis. in the mean time you guys might want to think
about sacrificing a tourny heare or there and opt to take your team to
an innercity youth program
---------------------------------------------------
>
> OK I'm done here because I have a life to go live and other things to
> deal with.
what are you implying?
---------------------------------------------------------
At some level, Toad, in your own way you have opened up
> space for dialogue, but I really think you could find more effective
> ways to do that
why is it ok for you to offer that critisism to me yet when i do the
same to you my critisisms arent valid......due to my style or
technique. And remember, i int the one gettin the huddle to promote
my plight like you guys.
-------------------------------------------------------------
, both on this discussion and others. But hey that's
> who you are and it's your life and you're the only one who has to live
> it.
then why try and convince me of otherwise? you know i'm gonna doo and
say what the fuck i want and how the fuck i want.
----------------------------------------------------
>Best of luck and thanks for talking with me.
black at ya
ulticritic
>
> enver, very nicely put. i know you sought solace in simply making the
> attempt, but you do the rest of us good as well.
am i the only person here that finds this comment a little
patronizing?
3jane.
> > good, he did iniate this thread after all.
>
> well, 3jane, as much as you like to come to toad's defense, toad may
> have started this thread, but dtb started the discussion in the first
> place.
I don't think you'll find too many examples of me defending Toad
(though I am pretty much in agreement with what I assume is his basic
premise) and the above is certainly not one of them. I was just
pointing out that he started this thread that generated some
thoughtful and well written replies, despite himself.
pooner
jermleeds
> http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/oh_no_its_making_well_reasoned
Nailed it.
pinto
Wow. Props to Toad for getting profiled in the Onion. More than most
of us have done this week.
~p
ulticritic
see here again enver......they are doing it again. i'm thinking that
we were making some headway with the whole racial issue and here come
the "diastracters". are people this rude and try to change the
subject at your post game bull sessions and avert attention from the
topic at hand?
tim e
in this thread I feel ashamed and want to openly apolgize to anyone
who read it. those are words that I swore I would never write or say
and I realize that they are words that can inspire hate.
ulticritic
you just spelled it wrong.....its nigga.....not nigger
seanc
um, yes.
jermleeds
> premise) and the above is certainly not one of them. I was just
> pointing out that he started this thread that generated some
> thoughtful and well written replies, despite himself.
Not trying to overstate your point, 3jane, but this is a bit like
giving John Hinckley Jr some of the credit for the Brady bill.
Daag Alemayehu
may not agree with HOW you get your message across, but I usually
agree with the message itself. Not this time though.
I played for DTB during our inaugural trip to Poultry Days this year.
Of the 17 people there, 7 were black (4 guys, 3 girls), myself being
one of them. We all have our own reasons for wanting to be a part of
DTB. For a lot of us there's the "bird's of a feather" aspect; that
is, we relish the opportunity to be around other ultimate players like
ourselves. In this country it's not too often that I find myself
surrounded by people with backgrounds, experiences, or life stories
similar to my own. That, for me, is why I love my DTB family.
Anything else I get from the experience is all gravy. And believe me,
there's plenty of gravy.
I think Enver has already proven your assumption about our backgrounds
to be incorrect, but I'll state a little bit about myself to echo his
point. My parents have worked extremely hard over the past several
decades to provide for extended family. My parents came to this
country with two toddlers, a suitcase, and a hundred bucks. My
household is middle class (now) but the vast majority of the rest of
my family is poor. My parents both work for a HBCU (a "black school"
for those not in the know). I went to an all-black daycare and
preschool and went to public schools practically my entire life - from
kindergarten all the way through my senior year of college. I've
lived in the burbs at times but I've lived in black or Hispanic
neighborhoods almost everywhere I've been - south Georgia, Atlanta,
St. Louis, downtown Durham, off Blvd East in Jersey, uptown
Manhattan. Oh yeah, and this one big black neighborhood called
Africa.
I'm also ambitious. And a hard worker. I got several merit
scholarships to college and a merit scholarship to a top 20 law
school. I went into the web design business for myself before I even
graduated and have been fairly successful doing that as well as other
things at varying points in my life (I was a semi-pro poker player for
awhile and have been recruited to do data analysis for financial
companies on Wall Street). And now I'm a lawyer.
You asked Enver for stats and annual incomes to "help to paint the
picture" about who we are but I can't understand why that matters. I
came up from almost nothing, but do my relative successes make me
somehow less qualified or authentic as a black man? If I'm making
$160k next year does my opinion count less than when I was making
minimum wage bagging groceries?
Maybe I'm just missing some single point in your rants on this subject
that would tie it all together for me. Or maybe you have just
completely missed the point of DTB?
ulticritic
> Toad. My friend. I agree with almost everything you say on RSD. I
> may not agree with HOW you get your message across, but I usually
> agree with the message itself. Not this time though.
not any of it?
---------------------------------------------
>
> I played for DTB during our inaugural trip to Poultry Days this year.
> Of the 17 people there, 7 were black (4 guys, 3 girls), myself being
> one of them. We all have our own reasons for wanting to be a part of
> DTB. For a lot of us there's the "bird's of a feather" aspect; that
> is, we relish the opportunity to be around other ultimate players like
> ourselves. In this country it's not too often that I find myself
> surrounded by people with backgrounds, experiences, or life stories
> similar to my own. That, for me, is why I love my DTB family.
> Anything else I get from the experience is all gravy. And believe me,
> there's plenty of gravy.
what about hectors pre potlatch take when he seemed to have the
epihiny the "his people" IS/ARE the ultimare community......maybe even
moreso than being latino???? And dont get me wrong, i'm all for
"tribin up" but once you start thowing around the notion that you are
at the same time combining that experience with some kind of mini
civil rights movement withinn the sport it becomes controversial and
we all know, where ever ther is controversy in ulti.....there is toad.
Maybe some people forgot about me when they decide to publicly promote
the issue to begin with.
as for the gravy......if theres plenty of it, shouldnt you guys
actually be going "downtown" with it.........as opposed to "up
town"(suburbs). That is IF ya REALLY want to get more people of color
to join in?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think Enver has already proven your assumption about our backgrounds
> to be incorrect, but I'll state a little bit about myself to echo his
> point. My parents have worked extremely hard over the past several
> decades to provide for extended family. My parents came to this
> country with two toddlers, a suitcase, and a hundred bucks.
from where? and fyi, my old man worked his way up from a pretty poor
backround himself, worked multiple jobs to put himself through
college, entered the navy as an officer, etc.
---------------------------------------------------------
My
> household is middle class (now) but the vast majority of the rest of
> my family is poor. My parents both work for a HBCU (a "black school"
> for those not in the know). I went to an all-black daycare and
> preschool and went to public schools practically my entire life - from
> kindergarten all the way through my senior year of college. I've
> lived in the burbs at times but I've lived in black or Hispanic
> neighborhoods almost everywhere I've been - south Georgia, Atlanta,
> St. Louis, downtown Durham, off Blvd East in Jersey, uptown
> Manhattan. Oh yeah, and this one big black neighborhood called
> Africa.
ok, you and enver have semi hoodish backrounds. what % of your team
had the same, better, worse. and how different were those backrounds
from the asian/indian faction of your team. i'm willing to bet a
lot. not saying i wouldnt possibly lose that bet, but as a risk
taking gambler.....thats a risk i would be willing to take. either
way, i am curious.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm also ambitious. And a hard worker. I got several merit
> scholarships to college and a merit scholarship to a top 20 law
> school. I went into the web design business for myself before I even
> graduated and have been fairly successful doing that as well as other
> things at varying points in my life (I was a semi-pro poker player for
> awhile and have been recruited to do data analysis for financial
> companies on Wall Street). And now I'm a lawyer.
giddy up
-----------------------------------------------------
>
> You asked Enver for stats and annual incomes to "help to paint the
> picture" about who we are but I can't understand why that matters. I
> came up from almost nothing, but do my relative successes make me
> somehow less qualified or authentic as a black man? If I'm making
> $160k next year does my opinion count less than when I was making
> minimum wage bagging groceries?
i guess that depends on how and in what way you give back to that
community.......and i guess i dont see you guys going to a sporting
event that is predomantently played by white people as "giving back"
OR helping the sport to become integrated. Now if you combined your
tournament going with going to various inner city projects and
teaching the sport(AS A TEAM) there, then i would judge that stategy
as much more effective in acheiving the end that i was lead to believe
you are trying to achieve. but i didnt read anywhere that doing such
was part of dtb's strategy. maybe thats somthing for you to think
about.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe I'm just missing some single point in your rants on this subject
> that would tie it all together for me. Or maybe you have just
> completely missed the point of DTB?
well, two things you probably know about me are that 1) i am drawn to
controversial issues like flies to shit and 2) i speak my mind. Now
let me also say that i am completely on your side with this issue and
as a nigga-loving cracka i have the unique capability to call my own
people out for being the racists that they are(however subtle it may
be) whithout catching the kinda shit that a person of color would. so
really i'm just trying to stir shit up so that 1) white people
confront the issue and take part in the dialouge (of which, i think
their obvious absence from this thread says a lot about their desire
to confront it) and 2) so that maybe you guys might consider taking
the dtb philosophy to the next level and do some things that would
make more of an impact on the lives of young black kids DIRECTLY. and
again, i just dont see how a post game dialouge amoungst white people
is gonna do all that much.......as they dont probably see the
"exclusivity" of the sport, be it race or class, as a problem much
less an issue.
AND i was really hopin that this thread would snowball to the point
that more dtbers AND more white people would take part (who knows, it
still might) for the sake of one thing.....which is more racial
diversity in the sport. I mean, dont you get the feeling that white
people are making an effort to stay away from contributing ANYTHING of
substance to this thread/issue? And i do know i often may cross the
line with some things i say. thats just my way. Maybe i'm simply
making up for all the people that stay tightlipped on the matter,
maybe i'm just trying to goat people into an instictual/natural
reaction rather that some filtered version of what they really feel.
I do the same with the ref issue. On more than one occasion i;ve
called out the apathetic ref proponents of this sport as being pussies
as they let the spiritzealots dictate to them whats what. Only
difference is with this is that its about race.......which is
obviously a more sensitive issue, but shit, how else can you really
tear down the walls without being honest and up front and even a
little aggro. I guess i'm just willing to make that sacrifice while
most arent. It aint like i'm getting anything out of this as i can
get plentty of attention for being an obnoxious asshole by just
stickin to the gay ass sotg issue.
I did have a thought the other day about your team though. As the
numbers grow is there any plan for downtownbrown to splinter off and
try and field teams of just blacks, just asians, just indians andor
just latinos???? I would assume that would be a natural progression
of the movement. i guess back in my day i coulda started a team with
just white guys with dreads......of course i would have been the only
team member. Now this was back in the eighties before most brothas
started sportin em. Of corse when the 90's rolled around and every
white boy and his brother were wearing them more as a hair style than
as a statement i cut mine. I'm still dread in my heart though.
ulticritic
i'd say its more like brady gettin the credit for the brady bill.
arent i the one takin the bullet here? i mean, how am i the killa in
this scenerio?
jacob
epihiny the "his people" IS/ARE the ultimare community......maybe even
moreso than being latino????"
What about it? let's say that Leber is a German name. Now let's
pretend that German-Americans were still discriminated against, and
were a minority in the ultimate world. Wouldn't it be OK for you to
consider the Wilmington ultimate community more your people than
German-Americans you did not know personally, yet still feel loyalty
and connection to those fellow German-Americans?
Toad: "once you start thowing around the notion that you are at the
same time combining that experience with some kind of mini civil
rights movement withinn the sport it becomes controversial"
I don't think that there is much controversy about people of color
playing together on the same ultimate team and/or promoting dialogue
about race and/or more "minorities" playing ultimate. I am a white
guy who played in the bay area of California when DTB first formed
here, and never heard a single piece of criticism of DTB even when in
all-white ultimate groups.
"Maybe some people forgot about me when they decide to publicly
promote the issue to begin with."
Or maybe they don't know you exist.
"shouldnt you guys actually be going "downtown" with it.........as
opposed to "up town"(suburbs). That is IF ya REALLY want to get more
people of color to join in?"
They don't have to choose between those two. That you or I may not
understand the nuances of racial identities within a group like DTB
does not render their exploration of those identities a bogus
endeavor, regardless of where that exploration takes place. There is
no rule that says people of color should not discuss their collective
experiences in a predominately white context. Sometimes, these
contexts are the ones where people of color can be the most visible.
If you are so obsessed with teaching inner city Black kids to play
ultimate, then you go do it yourself, and stop trying to dictate BTB's
agenda. I believe there is a black neighborhood near Wilmington.
Toad: "ok, [Daag] and enver have semi hoodish backrounds. what % of
[DTB] had the same, better, worse."
You need to explain why you are asking this before you are entitled to
a straight answer. Wealthy people of color are allowed to get
together and talk about race, whether they are playing ultimate or
not.
"how different were those backrounds from the asian/indian faction of
your team. i'm willing to bet a lot."
Yes, this is because Asians were not brought here involuntarily and
subject to hundreds of years of slavery, rape, murder, political
intimidation, and geographic segregation (yes, Asians have suffered
discrimination in the U.S., but not nearly as bad as African-
Americans). Neither one of us is original in observing the economic
disparities between African-Americans and Asian-Americans. Guess
what? They still share in the experience of being discriminated
against by White people, and they are allowed to talk about that
experience.
"either way, i am curious."
Why?
Daag: "If I'm making $160k next year does my opinion count less than
when I was making minimum wage bagging groceries?"
Toad: "i guess that depends on how and in what way you give back to
that community"
There are plenty of poor Black people who do not give back to their
community, despite having the capacity to do so, so measuring
blackness by how much someone gives back to their community is not a
yardstick which should only be used to measure the "blackness" of
wealthy African-Americans. Even if it were, do you have a formula for
this measurement?
"and i guess i dont see you guys going to a sporting event that is
predomantently played by white people as "giving back" OR helping the
sport to become integrated."
1) DTB is not obligated to achieve either of these goals
2) You can't "see" it because you lack the ability to see things from
the perspective of others, or to alter your opinion once you form it.
"Now if you combined your tournament going with going to various inner
city projects and teaching the sport(AS A TEAM) there, then i would
judge that stategy
as much more effective in acheiving the end that i was lead to believe
you are trying to achieve."
Does DTB have to do all things simultaneously? Can't they play at
Potlatch at one point, and teach ultimate to kids of color at another
point? Did you even read Enver's statement that at least one DTB
player has already done such outreach?
"two things you probably know about me are that 1) i am drawn to
controversial issues like flies to shit and 2) i speak my mind."
Again, other than your ranting, there is no real controversy here. As
to speaking your mind; I don't object to you speaking your mind- I
object to you refusing to process what others say when they speak
theirs. This is a basic skill required for a dialogue on race or
anything else.
"Now let me also say that i am completely on your side with this issue
and as a nigga-loving cracka i have the unique capability to call my
own people out for being the racists that they are whithout catching
the kinda shit that a person of color would."
Don't you mean "the racists WE are?" A white guy trying to dictate
the agenda of a "minority" organization while using the N word and
passing judgment on whether they are sell-outs is a form of racism,
Toad. You're not calling out your fellow white people; you're just
drawing attention to your own problems.
"i'm just trying to stir shit up so that 1) white people confront the
issue and take part in the dialouge (of which, i think their obvious
absence from this thread says a lot about their desire to confront
it)"
You're trying to stir shit up solely because you enjoy stirring shit
up. Period. White people are likely ignoring this "dialogue" because
they don't want to be mistaken for presuming to speak for DTB.
"and 2) so that maybe you guys might consider taking the dtb
philosophy to the next level and do some things that would make more
of an impact on the lives of young black kids DIRECTLY."
I guess you're really just an incorrigible altruist after all, huh,
Toad? Too bad people of color haven't had more of your style of
"tough love" from white people throughout our nation's history.
"i just dont see how a post game dialouge amoungst white people is
gonna do all that much"
Even if it does not do that much, DTB is still legit. At least they
are willing to give it a try. Also, again, don't put so much weight
into that which you cannot "see." I assure you, there are many
worthwhile things in this world which you cannot see.
"as they dont probably see the 'exclusivity' of the sport, be it race
or class, as a problem much less an issue.
I agree with you here, but this is something that can change,
particularly through DTB communicating with white players who know and
respect them.
"AND i was really hopin that this thread would snowball to the point
that more dtbers AND more white people would take part (who knows, it
still might) for the sake of one thing.....which is more racial
diversity in the sport."
So you think an rsd thread will accomplish more to integrate ultimate
than face to face discussions at Potlatch? Talk about being a
"zealot."
"maybe i'm just trying to goat people into an instictual/natural
reaction rather that some filtered version of what they really feel."
Not all filters are bad when it comes to communication. You can
filter what you have to say and still get your idea across, sometimes
in a more effective way. Your refusal to filter your thoughts is
borne more out of laziness and arrogance than out of honesty.
"how else can you really tear down the walls without being honest and
up front and even a little aggro."
"Aggro" white guys confronting people of color is not going tear down
any walls anytime soon. Your aggressiveness is not a strategy; it is
a symptom.
"I guess i'm just willing to make that sacrifice while most arent."
And the rest of us are nailing you to a cross, right?
"It aint like i'm getting anything out of this."
Really? I think you are using "filters" in your own mind.
"i guess back in my day i coulda started a team with just white guys
with dreads......of course i would have been the only team member.
Now this was back in the eighties before most brothas started sportin
em."
So do you get extra points in a race-related discussion in 2009 for
having dreads in 1988?
"I'm still dread in my heart though."
Yeah, I can practically hear "Positive Vibration" playing in your head
right now.
Reggie Fanelli
ulticritic
>
> What about it? let's say that Leber is a German name. Now let's
> pretend that German-Americans were still discriminated against, and
> were a minority in the ultimate world. Wouldn't it be OK for you to
> consider the Wilmington ultimate community more your people than
> German-Americans you did not know personally, yet still feel loyalty
> and connection to those fellow German-Americans?
that depends
------------------------------
>
> Toad: "once you start thowing around the notion that you are at the
> same time combining that experience with some kind of mini civil
> rights movement withinn the sport it becomes controversial"
>
> I don't think that there is much controversy about people of color
> playing together on the same ultimate team and/or promoting dialogue
> about race and/or more "minorities" playing ultimate. I am a white
> guy who played in the bay area of California when DTB first formed
> here, and never heard a single piece of criticism of DTB even when in
> all-white ultimate groups.
so.....you probably dont hear much critisism about the lack of refs in
ultimate out ther either.
-----------------------------------------
>
> "Maybe some people forgot about me when they decide to publicly
> promote the issue to begin with."
>
> Or maybe they don't know you exist.
now they do, eh?
-------------------------------------
>
> "shouldnt you guys actually be going "downtown" with it.........as
> opposed to "up town"(suburbs). That is IF ya REALLY want to get more
> people of color to join in?"
>
> They don't have to choose between those two.
i'm not sayin to choose, i'm sayin to do both
-----------------------------------------------------------
That you or I may not
> understand the nuances of racial identities within a group like DTB
> does not render their exploration of those identities a bogus
> endeavor, regardless of where that exploration takes place. There is
> no rule that says people of color should not discuss their collective
> experiences in a predominately white context. Sometimes, these
> contexts are the ones where people of color can be the most visible.
> If you are so obsessed with teaching inner city Black kids to play
> ultimate, then you go do it yourself,
maybe i will.....and challenge each member of dtb to do the same. we
could kill two birds with one stone. work towards youth ultimate,
more racial diversity AND expose it to lower class kids.......which is
three birds. Some of you honkeys can join in to if you are so
compelled.
---------------------------------------------------
? and stop trying to dictate BTB's
> agenda.
not dictating, just critizizing......ulti-CRITIC......GET IT?
------------------------------------------------
I believe there is a black neighborhood near Wilmington.
sho is. i'm on it. thanks for the motication
---------------------------------------------------
>
> Toad: "ok, [Daag] and enver have semi hoodish backrounds. what % of
> [DTB] had the same, better, worse."
>
> You need to explain why you are asking this before you are entitled to
> a straight answer. Wealthy people of color are allowed to get
> together and talk about race, whether they are playing ultimate or
> not.
and they often dont see eye to eye themselves. i know tiger woods and
jim brown dont. I just happen to side with jim brown
----------------------------------------------------------
>
> "how different were those backrounds from the asian/indian faction of
> your team. i'm willing to bet a lot."
>
> Yes, this is because Asians were not brought here involuntarily and
> subject to hundreds of years of slavery, rape, murder, political
> intimidation, and geographic segregation (yes, Asians have suffered
> discrimination in the U.S., but not nearly as bad as African-
> Americans). Neither one of us is original in observing the economic
> disparities between African-Americans and Asian-Americans. Guess
> what? They still share in the experience of being discriminated
> against by White people, and they are allowed to talk about that
> experience.
so if they want to talk about it (and encourage response) shouldnt i
be allowed to ask questions......and even be critical if i so choose?
------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "either way, i am curious."
>
> Why?
i dunno, i'm curious by nature????
--------------------------------------------------
>
> Daag: "If I'm making $160k next year does my opinion count less than
> when I was making minimum wage bagging groceries?"
>
> Toad: "i guess that depends on how and in what way you give back to
> that community"
>
> There are plenty of poor Black people who do not give back to their
> community, despite having the capacity to do so, so measuring
> blackness by how much someone gives back to their community is not a
> yardstick which should only be used to measure the "blackness" of
> wealthy African-Americans. Even if it were, do you have a formula for
> this measurement?
eh, i go by feel......like when i rent to people
-----------------------------------------------------
>
> "and i guess i dont see you guys going to a sporting event that is
> predomantently played by white people as "giving back" OR helping the
> sport to become integrated."
>
> 1) DTB is not obligated to achieve either of these goals
then why talk about em. walk it like you talk it is what i always say
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 2) You can't "see" it because you lack the ability to see things from
> the perspective of others, or to alter your opinion once you form it.
how do you figure that? ive always cried for the black man.......and
the native american indian too. whitey fucked em both
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Now if you combined your tournament going with going to various inner
> city projects and teaching the sport(AS A TEAM) there, then i would
> judge that stategy
> as much more effective in acheiving the end that i was lead to believe
> you are trying to achieve."
>
> Does DTB have to do all things simultaneously?
i dont think they CAN do them simutainiously as its not very likely
too many white people would be all that charged up about playing a
tourny in the hood. thats just a guess though
----------------------------------------------------------------
Can't they play at
> Potlatch at one point, and teach ultimate to kids of color at another
> point?
yes, and thats what they should do......while putting possibly MORE
promotional emphisis on the latter.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you even read Enver's statement that at least one DTB
> player has already done such outreach?
at least one? lats kinda weal imo. why not ALL?
--------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "two things you probably know about me are that 1) i am drawn to
> controversial issues like flies to shit and 2) i speak my mind."
>
> Again, other than your ranting, there is no real controversy here.
see dtb, white people dont see the SEVER LACK OF RACIAL DIVERSITY IN
ULTIMATE as being controversial. What is it then jacob? interesting?
puzzling? a non issue? I think when ya talk about race in ANY context
its a controvesial subject.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As
> to speaking your mind; I don't object to you speaking your mind- I
> object to you refusing to process what others say when they speak
> theirs. This is a basic skill required for a dialogue on race or
> anything else.
so you want to dicttate to me the proper way or pervicing things?
talk about censorship? i mean ive herd of censoring what someone says
but not how one thinks. and i'm pretty sure i'm presently involved in
a dialouge about race so how could i not have the proper skill do do
so.
----------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Now let me also say that i am completely on your side with this issue
> and as a nigga-loving cracka i have the unique capability to call my
> own people out for being the racists that they are whithout catching
> the kinda shit that a person of color would."
>
> Don't you mean "the racists WE are?"
i stand corrected. i'm one too to a certian extent. no arguement
there
--------------------------------------------------------
A white guy trying to dictate
> the agenda of a "minority" organization while using the N word and
> passing judgment on whether they are sell-outs is a form of racism,
but a black guy doing the same isnt?????? N word usage and all?????
if so, why?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Toad. You're not calling out your fellow white people; you're just
> drawing attention to your own problems.
no i'm drawing attention to ultimates extreem whiteness.......just in
a different way dtb is
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "i'm just trying to stir shit up so that 1) white people confront the
> issue and take part in the dialouge (of which, i think their obvious
> absence from this thread says a lot about their desire to confront
> it)"
>
> You're trying to stir shit up solely because you enjoy stirring shit
> up. Period.
you dont think i have a backround or intrest in racial integraation?
do you have any idea of what it was like for me to live in a bible
belt/semi redneck town and be the only person that wore
dreads.......and during the reagan 80's at that?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
White people are likely ignoring this "dialogue" because
> they don't want to be mistaken for presuming to speak for DTB.
speak for yourself then. i believe thats what they would prefer
anyways.
----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "and 2) so that maybe you guys might consider taking the dtb
> philosophy to the next level and do some things that would make more
> of an impact on the lives of young black kids DIRECTLY."
>
> I guess you're really just an incorrigible altruist after all, huh,
> Toad? Too bad people of color haven't had more of your style of
> "tough love" from white people throughout our nation's history.
it isnt as much tough love as it is encouragement, the way i see it.
and how can my unique perspective hurt?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "i just dont see how a post game dialouge amoungst white people is
> gonna do all that much"
>
> Even if it does not do that much, DTB is still legit.
legit how? as an ulti team or as a group thats trying to further
integrate this sport?
-------------------------------------------------------------
At least they
> are willing to give it a try. Also, again, don't put so much weight
> into that which you cannot "see." I assure you, there are many
> worthwhile things in this world which you cannot see.
well then lets hear about em? dont tell me about how your team did at
potlatch or fools west. tell me about all the success stories you
have with bringing more people of color to the sport.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "as they dont probably see the 'exclusivity' of the sport, be it race
> or class, as a problem much less an issue.
>
> I agree with you here, but this is something that can change,
> particularly through DTB communicating with white players who know and
> respect them.
eh, again, i dont see just doing that as really accomplishing
much.......largely do to the apathtic nature of ultimate
players......be it about refs or race
--------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "AND i was really hopin that this thread would snowball to the point
> that more dtbers AND more white people would take part (who knows, it
> still might) for the sake of one thing.....which is more racial
> diversity in the sport."
>
> So you think an rsd thread will accomplish more to integrate ultimate
> than face to face discussions at Potlatch?
i think people at potlatch are too wrapped up in playing and partying
to get caught up in a serious issue like this, so YES. rsd is a great
tool. its too bad that more people dont use it more often as one.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Talk about being a
> "zealot."
hey, this is the age of computers isnt it. so how is maximizing the
potential of rsd by spreading dtb's message zealotry?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "maybe i'm just trying to goat people into an instictual/natural
> reaction rather that some filtered version of what they really feel."
>
> Not all filters are bad when it comes to communication.
to me they are. one time on ultiverse they were interviewint that
chase dude and they asked him "if you could change anything about
ultimate, what would it be"? ya know what his reply was???? "no
comment". thats the kind of filters most ultimate players use to
avoid serious issues. which is pretty damn weak imo.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You can
> filter what you have to say and still get your idea across, sometimes
> in a more effective way.
well, we'll just to have to agree to disagree on that
-----------------------------------------------
Your refusal to filter your thoughts is
> borne more out of laziness and arrogance than out of honesty.
how so? discretion is the better part of valor and all that
bullshit? i guess valor aint a big deal to me.
-----------------------------------------------------
>
> "how else can you really tear down the walls without being honest and
> up front and even a little aggro."
>
> "Aggro" white guys confronting people of color is not going tear down
> any walls anytime soon. Your aggressiveness is not a strategy; it is
> a symptom.
we'll see
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> "I guess i'm just willing to make that sacrifice while most arent."
>
> And the rest of us are nailing you to a cross, right?
you sure seem to be. i mean youve been mighty critical of me(called
me a number of names) up to this point and i have yet to lash back at
you
-----------------------------------------------------------
>
> "It aint like i'm getting anything out of this."
>
> Really? I think you are using "filters" in your own mind.
i dont even know what the hell that is supposed to mean
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "i guess back in my day i coulda started a team with just white guys
> with dreads......of course i would have been the only team member.
> Now this was back in the eighties before most brothas started sportin
> em."
>
> So do you get extra points in a race-related discussion in 2009 for
> having dreads in 1988?
wher do you get 88 from?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "I'm still dread in my heart though."
>
> Yeah, I can practically hear "Positive Vibration" playing in your head
> right now.
actually i'm playing "who da cap fit"......same album though. dont
think rasta was ALL about peace and love.
ulticritic
>
> but hey, maybe youknowmore about race and people of color
>
> > than I do.
>
> or maybe i'm just more honest about it.
-------------------------------------------
HONESTY!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT A CONCEPT
so im sittin here this morning waiting for my FAVORITE espn show to
come on, which is also a radio show called "the herd" which is also
broadcasted on espnU (from 10 to 2 est) and im watching my second
favorite espn show called "outside the lines" (that i taped)
SO BEFOR I GO ANY FURTHER i need to know two things
1) does anybody else here watch that show regularly
2) did anybody catch yesterday mornings show...........if not, i urge
to to catch it later this week of find that episode on their web site.
SHOCKING ENOUGH,it was about race
Specifically race relations in south africa. I believe they are
running the story in light of south africa recieving the bid to host
the 2010 world cup soccer event. And i guess the theme of the story
was that, much like the beshing olimpics "the eyes of the world will
be upon them".......you know, because up til just recently south
africa has has an aparite system (which i think basically means
SEGREGATED and SUBJICATED???).
Now think for a moment about when the usa gets/got such bids......its
not like we need anybody to be critical of us, or "watching us",
right? i mean, arent we the MODEL for proper race relations. Youde
think as much
WELL YA BETTER THINK AGAIN....
While wathcing the story unfold, as bob ley did his magic, he was
interviewing a young southafrican black man who is a journalist and
has studied and worked in the united states and bob ley posed this
question to him (i dvr-ed this show so i'm giving you a word for word
account)
bob ley: "again, having lived in the states AND being a native south
african, which country is more honest in its conversations about
race?"
SA journalist:(a smile and nod, followed by a confident, wide eyed and
resounding......) "SOUTH AFRICA!!!!! In south africa, by far, we
fight everyday about race......and its not even polite. Whereas with
my experience in the U.S..people dont even want to touch race.....as
if it would somehow...they were very uncomfportable or akward."
SO THERE YA GOT IT. Now all you people, offended browmers as well as
sympathetic whites, can call me ignorant, belidgerant, narsisistic,
and obnoxious ALL YOU WANT.......but you CAN'T accuse me of not being
honest. So keep lieing to yourselves if you want......or simply deny
that you are lieing to begin with, but remember this......like my wise
father once told me......"90% of people lye by ommision EVERY DAY".
So are you lying today??? by omission????? because you are
uncomfortable or akward???? in facing the TRUTH ABOUT ULTIMATE and
its blatent exclusionary dynamics (BOTH RACIAL AND CLASS-WISE).
You know, sometimes i feel bad that i live in a state/region that is
so easily mocked for its lack of racial diversity and
integration.......but then i look at ultimate and see a bunch of
people that seem to fly some kind of "social conciousness" flag yet
THEY have absolutly NO RACIAL DIVERSITY EITHER...... DONT THINk THE
OBVIOUS LACK OF RACIAL DIVERSITY TO BE A PROBLEM.......AND, DONT WANT
TO BE CONFRONTED WITH IT TO BOOT.
SO EXCUUUUUUUSE ME if i take a tip from south africa and am not all
that "polite' in MY contribution to the discussion........i guess it
just dosent make me feel "uncomfortable or akward"...........as i try
to be "honest" about the matter.
jacob
Is it possible for for two honest people to disagree, or is someone
necessarily being dishonest if they disagree with your honestly held
beliefs?
ulticritic
> Is it possible to be honest and incorrect at the same time?
what am incorect about? my opinion on the matter? or am i simply
incorrect for expressing my opinion ON the matter? or was it just
incorrect to express an incorrect opinion (althought i think of it
more as, maybe "unpolite". i was gonna say "unpopular" but i dont
think its really all that unpopular.........especially as it ALL quite
obvious). and whoes to say what correct or incorrect anyways.
What crazy too is that this is soooooo parellel with th ole anti ref
spirit zealot arguements whose origins (and i should know) came right
out of that "whats correct", trasitions of the sport, idealistic
DELUSIONAL bullshit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is it possible for for two honest people to disagree,
dont overthink it jake
----------------------------------------
or is someone
> necessarily being dishonest if they disagree with your honestly held
> beliefs?
no jake......and you know this. or are you just asking on everyone
elses behalf
thefan
i'm gonna jump in late here with what i think the disconnect is.
to be sure, in this country, race is a topic that makes people
uncomfortable. you can hear it when people try to describe someone to
another person. it's nothing to say "the tall guy", "redheaded guy"
even "fat guy" but when you describe a person as "white", "black",
"indian" you hear it in their voice. a little hitch in their verbal
step that questions whether or not what they are about to say is
appropriate. we have been trained by different propoganda, teachers,
parents not so "see" race or color so much that when we are describing
the physical characteristics of someone, we hesitate the point out the
most obvious trait, like the color of their skin. so by extension, we
are unwilling to get into serious conversations about race, race
relations and the like when we don't even want to point out that that
dude is "white/black/green"
in South Africa as you mention, they are confronted with it everyday
and the memory of the discrimination is right on the forefront of
their everyday lives. they are less than one generation away from a
very real environment of open discrimination. we sort of want to
pretend it has gone away. and in a lot of ways, it has. it is
certainly no longer legal, or in most places socially acceptable to
discriminate based on race, but the remnants of it are still here. i
don't know what the exact numbers are, but in general terms blacks,
African Americans, (there i go again) are the poorer class. they are
in prison in greater numbers and don't do as well in school. this is
because of a host of issues, some social, some logistical, but also
because of the history of the two colors of people that have painted
the path of this nation. there are differences now, and some of them
are the result of the unfair discrimination that whites imposed on
people of color in the past (and in some places are still doing
today).
i think the race "exclusion" in ultimate is just an extension of the
racial divide in our country. most of us were introduced to ultimate
in college, a place that is, by the numbers, overrun with upper
classier whitier folks. most of us went out to join a team that was
pretty close to 100% white, so as white folks, we felt totally
comfortable joining in. i played in wilmington, we had no asian
players that i remember. sometimes we would play teams that had large
percentages of asian players. was it because there were no asian
students at UNCW? sort of? were there more asians at that other
school? maybe. but what really happened was that asian students at
that other school saw asians on the team and felt comfortable
joining. the asian student at UNCW didn't see anyone like him or her
on the team and was a little more apprehensive to join in. since i'm
talking to RSD, a predominately white community, how comfortable would
you be joining in to a team of all black or all asian players. some
will be honest and say, "not very." others will lie and say, "hey, no
problem." but when it comes down to it, a very small percentage of us
are some comfortable with ourselves that we would join into any group
where we are the one that sticks out with just a cursory glance.
lets look at soccer. 20 years ago, no black kids. why? soccer
wasn't as accessable. it wasn't in very many schools, my high school
which was predominately white had it's first soccer team in 1988. if
you wanted to play soccer you had to join a league, which meant on top
of getting the equipment and getting to the practice and games, you
had to shell out money just to get started. and, maybe more
importantly, you had to know someone or something. youth leagues
don't advertise on billoards right? ultimate is in the same place.
you have to be in the right place, typically college, or a small
handful of high schools, you have to know the right people or joining
the ultimate team might never even cross your mind. and then, once
those things fall into place you would have to take the step to go out
and join up with the people who were already out there on the team.
it's a social issue and a popularity issue. the social issue won't go
away for a long time, maybe ever, since we are usually afraid to get
our hands dirty talking about it. the popularity issue, as an
ultimate community we could do something about. get kids playing
ultimate in school, middle school, high school and a few years down
the road, ultimate won't be such a "white" sport. introduce it to
EVERYbody and you can overcome at least one of the 3 obstacles to
playing ultimate. at least people will have heard of it, be familiar
with it.
i guess the point is that i don't think that ultimate is exclusionary
by nature, but by circumstance. it's not a popular sport. lots of
people have never heard of it to this day. most of us had to go to
college to be exposed to it. the circumstances around the sport made
it unlikely that lots of people of color would go and try it out for
the first time at 18 or 19 years old. and when the majority of the
people who are exposed to it are middle to upper class white kids,
well, you wind up with a sport that has mostly middle to upper class
white folks playing.
what is the solution? dunno. get it into elementary schools, that
would help. if it were on TV, that would help some too. try
introducing it into several inner city youth programs, that will help
too. it's not going to happen overnight and it's not going to happen
by taking a team of all "nonwhites" to ultimate tournaments teamming
with white folks. we already know about ultimate, the trick is
getting it to new players, and making an effort to see that those new
players are more racially diverse than the ones we have now.
The Fan
Enver
is right on. This was also definitely one point on which Toad and I
were basically talking past each other.
Thanks for contributing to the discussion in a meaningful and
constructive way.
ulticritic
> Nicely put. I think your distinction of by circumstance vs. by nature
> is right on.
whats so "right on" about it? and how does pointing out that
distinction help solve ANYTHING??? isnt he just pointing out the
obvious? And, giving this distinction, what is the correct corse of
action to make change from this point forward? thats IS what dtb
wants isnt it? change? as in more racial diversity???? so whats the
plan? to wear shirts with REAL radicals and hope some of their
radicalness will rub off on you?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This was also definitely one point on which Toad and I
> were basically talking past each other.
i dont. i think we just disagree on the proper course of action that
should be used to evoke change. I like a more radical and in your
face approach (kinda like the bold olympian act that you flourish on
your shirt) and i'm thinking you want to take a more passive and less
risky approach. am i wriong?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks for contributing to the discussion in a meaningful and
> constructive way.
are you trying to stick it to me there enver..........STICKIN IT!!!!
jacob
Enver
to do, but anyways...
First off before I say anything I want to make it clear that I speak
on my behalf, no one else's. A common mistaken assumption made about
minority communities (that is often made even by some members of those
communities) is that they do (or should) all hold identical views on
relevant issues. This is simply not the case. You seem to hold this
assumption with regard to DTB. The reasons for playing and the meaning
of the team are as varied as the people who play. I'm pretty sure I
said this in my first post and I know someone stated as much on the
huddle page.
>
> > Nicely put. I think your distinction of by circumstance vs. by nature
> > is right on.
>
> whats so "right on" about it? and how does pointing out that
> distinction help solve ANYTHING??? isnt he just pointing out the
> obvious? And, giving this distinction, what is the correct corse of
> action to make change from this point forward? thats IS what dtb
> wants isnt it? change? as in more racial diversity???? so whats the
> plan? to wear shirts with REAL radicals and hope some of their
> radicalness will rub off on you?
Well, your posts suggest that there is some dark conspiracy to keep
poor people of color from playing ultimate. You talk about the overt,
racist exclusion. But if there is some sort of explicit exclusion of
people of color, I personally have yet to see evidence of that. In
fact ultimate players as a whole, in my experience, have proven to be
the most open-minded and welcoming of athletes. My interpretation of
what Jimmy is saying is that the relative "whiteness" of the ultimate
community has to do with external, what you might call structural,
factors, not any conscious or overt exclusion on the part of ultimate
players themselves. This is very different from what you were
suggesting about the lack of players of color in ultimate. I never
directly address what I perceived to be this misconception on your
part. (Mostly cause I felt like there were so many misconception to
deal with and there are only so many hours in the day). So I was glad
Jimmy was able to get to the heart of the matter.
Now on to your next question of how does that solve anything. My
response is - what is there to solve? If there were people of color
who wanted to play ultimate and were being denied that opportunity by
the UPA (like they weren't allowed to be members or couldn't play at
sectionals), well, then there would be a problem to solve. But that is
not the case. For me getting more people of color to play ultimate is
not super high on my list of priorities. For some people on DTB it may
be and that's fine. It'd be great to see more players of color. But
personally (and note the PERSONALLY) I think most poor black people
(and really communities of people of color n the U.S. in general) have
bigger fish to fry in their lives. That's not why I have played on DTB
in the past and I suspect this is the case for others. And I don't
believe anyone has ever said that this is one of DTB's goals as a
group. Yes, some team members have expressed their personal desire to
work toward that and see DTB as a way of exploring that issue. But I
don't think I've seen this explicitly stated as one of the groups
goals. You seem to think having more black players will make the game
more exciting. If that were true, that would be great for ultimate,
but for the black community in general, I don't really see why it
should be such an urgent goal.
So why have I played DTB and why does it still mean something very
special to me? I've already gone into that. To me it's empowering to
simply spend a weekend playing with other people of color. It's nice
to know I'm not the only one out there, to embrace my love for
ultimate as well as my identity as a person of color. To meet other
players of color and see what their experience is like. To bond with
them. You think that's bullshit or poserish. Great - thanks for
sharing... Other players have other reasons, again the reasons are as
varied as the players who play.
Now as far as the black power salute goes. My understanding of the
intention of the salute on the parts of the olympians was the desire
to express the fact that they were conflicted about representing a
country that had yet to guarantee their full rights as citizens. In
his classic, The Souls of Black Folk, W.E.B. DuBois talks about a
"double consciousness" that blacks have. We are Americans, but also
blacks, a group that (certainly in DuBois' time) were despised by
America. I won't be able to do the concept justice here. But this is
what the salute means to me. Yes I am American, but in many ways I'm
not quite American, not like most Americans. This country was founded
in part on the notion that I am less than human, etc. This is what the
salute in that particular context means to me.
In a way I feel the same about ultimate (the analogy is not quite
perfect). Yes I love ultimate and love the ultimate community. I've
derived tons of joy and satisfaction from playing, watching and
following the sport. But, I also, quite honestly, often feel like
something of an outsider or not quite fully part of the community,
maybe somewhat alienated if you will. And that has a lot to do with
the fact that most ultimate players are white and, like Mike Namkung
stated, whiteness is considered normal and is therefore invisible (not
just in ultimate but in American society in general) - thus I am not
normal. I will never just be an ultimate player, there is a duality to
my existence. Now this is the case for all non-whites. We know we are
not the norm - our very existence is qualified with an adjective. This
is not something that can be easily related to or explained, so to be
able to spend a weekend playing ultimate with people who understand
this without having to have it explained to them is, again, too
appealing to pass up.
Why play the game then? Why "turn my back" on my culture as you put
it? Well, one I don't see it as turning my back on anything. But that
notwithstanding, I simply love the game. To suggest that I should
"stick with my kind" and thus not play ultimate is a rather racist
notion from this perspective, don't you think?
So to me the black power symbol on the DTB shirts represents
solidarity with other ultimate players of color and an implicit
statement, of yes, sometimes it can be tough to play in this mostly
white world of frisbee, but there are others of us like you, so stay
strong and keep playing. We'll see you again in another year and you
can derive more strength from our presence and "brown love." It also
is emblematic and a reminder of of all the numerous athletes who have
come before me and struggled so that I could play whatever the hell
sport I want. A tribute to those who have come before, who had to deal
with being told that a certain sport wasn't for them or they should
just stick with their own kind. It's a reminder not to forget their
struggle and be gratefull for what it's allowed me to do.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This was also definitely one point on which Toad and I
>
> > were basically talking past each other.
>
> i dont. i think we just disagree on the proper course of action that
> should be used to evoke change. I like a more radical and in your
> face approach (kinda like the bold olympian act that you flourish on
> your shirt) and i'm thinking you want to take a more passive and less
> risky approach. am i wriong?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ulticritic
> Toad Leber you are a funny, funny man...
i try
------------------------------------
I swear I have better things
> to do, but anyways...
better things to do than break down racial barriers within ulti??????
like what.......hang with white people
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> First off before I say anything I want to make it clear that I speak
> on my behalf, no one else's.
who else would ya be speaking for?
----------------------------------------------------------
A common mistaken assumption made about
> minority communities (that is often made even by some members of those
> communities) is that they do (or should) all hold identical views on
> relevant issues.
i personally NEVER make that mistake.......and pretty much think only
an idiot would.......which is why i find such disclaimers kinda
contrite
-------------------------------------------------------------
This is simply not the case. You seem to hold this
> assumption with regard to DTB.
how do you figure that......didnt ya read my reply to hectors unsure
"soidarity" explination. i think you guys are all over the place with
this self perceived altruistic movement
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reasons for playing and the meaning
> of the team are as varied as the people who play.
well that might be your initial problem. ya might want to get on the
same page an figure your own shit out priot to flourishing such bold,
provocative and meaningful imagery on your shirts. or AM i correct in
my accusation of it being more of a fluffed up fasion than a real
statement. and i wonder if what role most of you would have taken up
back in the day when the REAL racial minority struggles were taking
place.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm pretty sure I
> said this in my first post and I know someone stated as much on the
> huddle page.
yea, yea, yea, we get it......you guys arent unified in your plight.
people of color that are tokens amongst whites usually arent. and
they usually want nothing to do with any kind of uprising
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> > > Nicely put. I think your distinction of by circumstance vs. by nature
> > > is right on.
>
> > whats so "right on" about it? and how does pointing out that
> > distinction help solve ANYTHING??? isnt he just pointing out the
> > obvious? And, giving this distinction, what is the correct corse of
> > action to make change from this point forward? thats IS what dtb
> > wants isnt it? change? as in more racial diversity???? so whats the
> > plan? to wear shirts with REAL radicals and hope some of their
> > radicalness will rub off on you?
>
> Well, your posts suggest that there is some dark conspiracy to keep
> poor people of color from playing ultimate.
bzzt wrong.......i suggested that its a very subtle(light) conspiracy
-------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about the overt,
> racist exclusion. But if there is some sort of explicit exclusion of
> people of color, I personally have yet to see evidence of that.
are you BLIND???? Seems like all one has to do is open their eyes and
look around to see it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In
> fact ultimate players as a whole, in my experience, have proven to be
> the most open-minded and welcoming of athletes.
then why the need for dtb in the first place? or the controversial
imagry on your shirts?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My interpretation of
> what Jimmy is saying is that the relative "whiteness" of the ultimate
> community has to do with external, what you might call structural,
> factors, not any conscious or overt exclusion on the part of ultimate
> players themselves.
you can justify it any way you want but segregation is
segregation.......and them guys on you shirts made great sacrfices to
fight against it.......where as you seem to not only be supporting it
but also somewhat blind to it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is very different from what you were
> suggesting about the lack of players of color in ultimate. I never
> directly address what I perceived to be this misconception on your
> part. (Mostly cause I felt like there were so many misconception to
> deal with and there are only so many hours in the day). So I was glad
> Jimmy was able to get to the heart of the matter.
all jimmy did was say the same exact thing i did but in a very non
akward, polite and comfortable way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now on to your next question of how does that solve anything. My
> response is - what is there to solve?
you tell me......its your movement. but the idea i got was that there
needs to be more racial diversity in the sport? this attitude of
yours does confirm that those sweet shirts of yours are simply a
fasion statement........which is quite sad imo.......and also quite
insincere towards those individuals that actually made that
sacrifice.......which was for your benefit.......shameful
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there were people of color
> who wanted to play ultimate and were being denied that opportunity by
> the UPA (like they weren't allowed to be members or couldn't play at
> sectionals), well, then there would be a problem to solve.
like i say, racism has become much more subtle in this time. wouldnt
all the efforts towards the youth movement in ulti tell you
that.......in that most organizational efforts take place in mostley
white (AND DEFINITELY MOSTELY RICH) private schools??????
---------------------------------------------------------------
But that is
> not the case. For me getting more people of color to play ultimate is
> not super high on my list of priorities.
thats why i see you as a poser
-------------------------------------------------------------------
For some people on DTB it may
> be and that's fine. It'd be great to see more players of color.
well that "greatness" aint gonna occur without action. and a fashion
statement is hardly an action
----------------------------------------------------------------
But
> personally (and note the PERSONALLY) I think most poor black people
> (and really communities of people of color n the U.S. in general) have
> bigger fish to fry in their lives.
than playing ultimate? like what.....playing basketball? or are you
sugesting they have more to do than break down racial barriers? And
i'm not really talking about their efforts as much as the people that
presently play ultimate and put efforts towards its growth. None of
those efforts seem to be directed towards poor black youth? and you
are ok with this???? I dont get it.....i'm not and i'm white.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not why I have played on DTB
> in the past and I suspect this is the case for others. And I don't
> believe anyone has ever said that this is one of DTB's goals as a
> group.
well ya might want to think about changing your shirt logo
then.......if for nothing else outa respect for those brave altruistic
olympians that sacrificed their medals for your sake.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, some team members have expressed their personal desire to
> work toward that and see DTB as a way of exploring that issue. But I
> don't think I've seen this explicitly stated as one of the groups
> goals.
well, i can see how the asian, indian and latino factions of your
group might feel a disconect from the black mans struggle. and i
think ive made that point already
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You seem to think having more black players will make the game
> more exciting.
look what it did for basketball
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If that were true, that would be great for ultimate,
> but for the black community in general, I don't really see why it
> should be such an urgent goal.
hey, its YOUR (DTB's) goal......or it sure seems to be from the
propaganda ive read. seem like you guys need to get together and
figure yalls shit out. Like i say, i got no problem about you guys
teaming up just to compete.....as a "tribe", but once you start
spouting about racial diversity and raising awarness you are stepping
into a whole different realm. One that i personally
appreciate......but only if its sincere. If it aint then you leave
your self open for critisism from both sides.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> So why have I played DTB and why does it still mean something very
> special to me? I've already gone into that. To me it's empowering to
> simply spend a weekend playing with other people of color.
so are you also saying it would be nice to attend an all colored
tourny???? where does the "empowerment" end? or does it?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's nice
> to know I'm not the only one out there, to embrace my love for
> ultimate as well as my identity as a person of color.
do you mean its nice to know that you arent the only token black
playing ultimate.......and that all you tokens can team up and be the
one token "brown" team at an all white event? Wouldnt it be nicer to
have a completely racially diverse sport rather than like it
is......which is 99.9% white? And as nice as the thought of that
sounds you still have no interest in exposing people of color to
ultimate......because, as you say, "they have bigger fish to fry"?
you seem kinda like a sell out to me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To meet other
> players of color and see what their experience is like. To bond with
> them. You think that's bullshit or poserish.
no, i sure dont.....that is if ya keep it at just that. once you
bring in all the rebelious imagry and start spewing "racial diversity"
propaganda you got to walk it like you talk it......or get called out
by someone like me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great - thanks for
> sharing... Other players have other reasons, again the reasons are as
> varied as the players who play.
well, like i said, ya might want to get together and figure all that
shit out prior to doing the kind of promo you did with the
huddle........OR trying to persuade anyone of anything in any kind of
post game discussions.......OR encouraging others to take part in any
kind of "open dialouge".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now as far as the black power salute goes. My understanding of the
> intention of the salute on the parts of the olympians was the desire
> to express the fact that they were conflicted about representing a
> country that had yet to guarantee their full rights as citizens.
mine too
---------------------------------------------------
In
> his classic, The Souls of Black Folk, W.E.B. DuBois talks about a
> "double consciousness" that blacks have. We are Americans, but also
> blacks, a group that (certainly in DuBois' time) were despised by
> America.
dont think you still arent by some. but like i said, todays forms of
racism are much more subtle and often come in the form of basic
exclusion. Its like bmw sang....."they take the chains from off our
arms and placed the round our minds". Places like the sport of
ultimate are direct reflections of this. And whats really wierd to me
is that for a sport that was born from such social conciousness that
the only thing ultimate has seemed to retained is this anit authority
no refs trip........sad!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I won't be able to do the concept justice here. But this is
> what the salute means to me. Yes I am American, but in many ways I'm
> not quite American, not like most Americans. This country was founded
> in part on the notion that I am less than human, etc. This is what the
> salute in that particular context means to me.
and you perpetualte this dynamic by becoming the lone black guy/team
in an all white sport? thats wierd
------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In a way I feel the same about ultimate (the analogy is not quite
> perfect). Yes I love ultimate and love the ultimate community. I've
> derived tons of joy and satisfaction from playing, watching and
> following the sport. But, I also, quite honestly, often feel like
> something of an outsider or not quite fully part of the community,
thats because you ARE. its called being a token. like the word or
not, thats what it means
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> maybe somewhat alienated if you will. And that has a lot to do with
> the fact that most ultimate players are white and, like Mike Namkung
> stated, whiteness is considered normal and is therefore invisible
but as an asian he is slightly more accepted than a black man.......so
he's got a little edge on you there
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(not
> just in ultimate but in American society in general) - thus I am not
> normal.
nor am i. how many white people do you usually encounter that are
this honest and provocitive?
----------------------------------------------------
>I will never just be an ultimate player,
sure ya will, isnt mj just a basketball player. One day ultimate will
become integrated (BUT ITS GONNA TAKE WORK)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there is a duality to
> my existence. Now this is the case for all non-whites. We know we are
> not the norm - our very existence is qualified with an adjective. This
> is not something that can be easily related to or explained,
sure it can......its just that being completely honest(even if it
means being impolite) is a prerequisite.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so to be
> able to spend a weekend playing ultimate with people who understand
> this without having to have it explained to them is, again, too
> appealing to pass up.
if ya dont have to explain it to them then why all the huddle
propaganda and controversial imagry on the shirts?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why play the game then? Why "turn my back" on my culture as you put
> it? Well, one I don't see it as turning my back on anything. But that
> notwithstanding, I simply love the game. To suggest that I should
> "stick with my kind" and thus not play ultimate is a rather racist
> notion from this perspective, don't you think?
depends....it could be perceived as an active protest to the subtle
racism yet obvious lack of racial diversity in ulti? either way, walk
it like you talk it. If its all about just "tribin" as a subset of
the larger ultimate tribe then fine, leave it at that. Just dont ask
me to get invloved in a dialoug on the matter if you aint willing to
face it, talk about it yourselves and actually initiate action.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> So to me the black power symbol on the DTB shirts represents
> solidarity with other ultimate players of color and an implicit
> statement, of yes, sometimes it can be tough to play in this mostly
> white world of frisbee, but there are others of us like you, so stay
> strong and keep playing.
so it IS a leftist movement? and what are your though on how this
movement is being percieved by the greater white faction of the
ultimate community?
---------------------------------------------------------------
We'll see you again in another year and you
> can derive more strength from our presence and "brown love."
well i'm hopin i can see you on the fields as my team of
underprivlidged black youth can play your team of color and we
together can make an even greater impact on bridging the racial divide
in this sport.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It also
> is emblematic and a reminder of of all the numerous athletes who have
> come before me and struggled so that I could play whatever the hell
> sport I want.
but the fact remains that there are many many many black youth that
cant play what ever spor they want.........ultimate being one of
them. first because it isnt activly exposed to them in any kind of
formal way (like it is to many private school kids anyways) and 2nd
because of the financial burdens in place due to the way ultimate is
structured and formated. This is where i think you are blind to the
realities of it all and become somewhat lost in the white world of
ultimate that you have gained such an affection for/with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A tribute to those who have come before, who had to deal
> with being told that a certain sport wasn't for them or they should
> just stick with their own kind. It's a reminder not to forget their
> struggle and be gratefull for what it's allowed me to do.
well what about making a tribute to those that will come after you
that might not have the same tools you had that allowed you to
encounter the sport?
this is why i am official and publically challenging you to form a
youth chapter of dtb in your town, encourage your teamates to do the
same and next summer we can meet somewhere to play in a mostly non
white event........which is really no different that you playing on a
mostly non white team, right?
pinto
> On Jul 14, 11:24 pm, Enver <env...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> A common mistaken assumption made about
>
> > minority communities (that is often made even by some members of those
> > communities) is that they do (or should) all hold identical views on
> > relevant issues.
>
> i personally NEVER make that mistake.......and pretty much think only
> an idiot would.......which is why i find such disclaimers kinda
> contrite
Didn't Mike (and you? I don't recall) trot out his gay friend who was
okay with using queer as a negative?
> This is simply not the case. You seem to hold this
>
> > assumption with regard to DTB.
>
> how do you figure that......
Well, you've addressed all of your communication to the team, not to
any individuals. And you have a nasty habit of grouping anyway. How
many times have we heard "you people" or "your types" or "typical for
a 2/spirit zealot/whatever" from you?
> yea, yea, yea, we get it......you guys arent unified in your plight.
> people of color that are tokens amongst whites usually arent. and
> they usually want nothing to do with any kind of uprising
A token is someone who gets included in a show, story, or situation as
a deliberate attempt to make things seem more diverse than they
otherwise would be.
South Park makes fun of this trend by having a character named
"token."
How does tokenism apply here? Are you saying that non-DTB teams are
accepting non-whites, not because of their skills, but because those
teams wish to have "tokens" on the roster in order to appear more
diverse?
Do you have any evidence for such a claim?
> > > action to make change from this point forward? thats IS what dtb
> > > wants isnt it?
Well, there you are again, back to your trick. You're totally down
with the fact that Enver doesn't speak for his team, but you ask him
to tell you what his team wants, even after he's told you that folks
on his team want different things.
> > Well, your posts suggest that there is some dark conspiracy to keep
> > poor people of color from playing ultimate.
>
> bzzt wrong.......i suggested that its a very subtle(light) conspiracy
Conspiracy on who's part? Conspiracy implies intention, not
circumstance or unintended consequence. Who is intentionally taking
actions with the goal of making ultimate more white? Who are the
conspirators? Do these conspirators know that they're conspiring?
> You talk about the overt,
>
> > racist exclusion. But if there is some sort of explicit exclusion of
> > people of color, I personally have yet to see evidence of that.
>
> are you BLIND???? Seems like all one has to do is open their eyes and
> look around to see it.
Explicit exclusion of people of color? I've never seen it. For the
record, that would be a clear instance where someone of color wanted
to play, but was excluded, and the excluding party explicitly noted
that the reason for exclusion was... color.
I'm pretty sure that this is another instance of reading comprehension
fail on your part, Toad.
> you can justify it any way you want but segregation is
> segregation.......
I don't think so. Imposed segregation, enforced by law is a totally
different thing than self-segregation that results from social
structure and norms. In one case you can just repeal the law. In the
other, not so much.
> no, i sure dont.....that is if ya keep it at just that. once you
> bring in all the rebelious imagry and start spewing "racial diversity"
> propaganda you got to walk it like you talk it......or get called out
> by someone like me.
Hmm... looks like someone might be confusing "Enver" with "Other dudes
who wrote shit in the Huddle" again. You've suggested that only an
idiot would make that error. Are you sure?
> I won't be able to do the concept justice here. But this is
>
> > what the salute means to me. Yes I am American, but in many ways I'm
> > not quite American, not like most Americans. This country was founded
> > in part on the notion that I am less than human, etc. This is what the
> > salute in that particular context means to me.
>
> and you perpetualte this dynamic by becoming the lone black guy/team
> in an all white sport? thats wierd
How does being the only black dude on a team perpetuate slavery or the
3/5ths rule? WTF are you talking about?
> nor am i. how many white people do you usually encounter that are
> this honest and provocitive?
I wonder how often he runs into bums on the street? I've always found
that bums are willing to tell you what they think, no matter how
controversial, irrelevant, or incoherent their views might be.
> >I will never just be an ultimate player,
> sure ya will, isnt mj just a basketball player.
Um, no? Are you of the opinion that today's generation of black
ballers didn't notice that MJ was black when they were growing up?
> > Why play the game then? Why "turn my back" on my culture as you put
> > it? Well, one I don't see it as turning my back on anything. But that
> > notwithstanding, I simply love the game. To suggest that I should
> > "stick with my kind" and thus not play ultimate is a rather racist
> > notion from this perspective, don't you think?
>
> depends....it could be perceived as an active protest to the subtle
> racism
Racism on who's part? Who's being racist here? I mean, other than
you?
> > So to me the black power symbol on the DTB shirts represents
> > solidarity with other ultimate players of color and an implicit
> > statement, of yes, sometimes it can be tough to play in this mostly
> > white world of frisbee, but there are others of us like you, so stay
> > strong and keep playing.
>
> so it IS a leftist movement?
Leftists, generally speaking, support greater state control of
economic production and the redistribution of wealth and power. What
does that have to do with race identification in ultimate?
~p
ulticritic
>
> > You talk about the overt,
>
> > > racist exclusion. But if there is some sort of explicit exclusion of
> > > people of color, I personally have yet to see evidence of that.
>
> > are you BLIND???? Seems like all one has to do is open their eyes and
> > look around to see it.
>
> Explicit exclusion of people of color? I've never seen it. For the
> record, that would be a clear instance where someone of color wanted
> to play, but was excluded, and the excluding party explicitly noted
> that the reason for exclusion was... color.
>
> I'm pretty sure that this is another instance of reading comprehension
> fail on your part, Toad.
>
> > you can justify it any way you want but segregation is
> > segregation.......
>
> I don't think so. Imposed segregation, enforced by law is a totally
> different thing than self-segregation that results from social
> structure and norms. In one case you can just repeal the law. In the
> other, not so much.
>
> > bring in all the rebelious imagry and start spewing "racial diversity"
> > propaganda you got to walk it like you talk it......or get called out
> > by someone like me.
>
> Hmm... looks like someone might be confusing "Enver" with "Other dudes
> who wrote shit in the Huddle" again. You've suggested that only an
> idiot would make that error. Are you sure?
>
> > I won't be able to do the concept justice here. But this is
>
> > > what the salute means to me. Yes I am American, but in many ways I'm
> > > not quite American, not like most Americans. This country was founded
> > > in part on the notion that I am less than human, etc. This is what the
> > > salute in that particular context means to me.
>
> > and you perpetualte this dynamic by becoming the lone black guy/team
> > in an all white sport? thats wierd
>
> How does being the only black dude on a team perpetuate slavery or the
> 3/5ths rule? WTF are you talking about?
>
> > nor am i. how many white people do you usually encounter that are
> > this honest and provocitive?
>
> I wonder how often he runs into bums on the street? I've always found
> that bums are willing to tell you what they think, no matter how
> controversial, irrelevant, or incoherent their views might be.
>
> > >I will never just be an ultimate player,
>
> Um, no? Are you of the opinion that today's generation of black
> ballers didn't notice that MJ was black when they were growing up?
>
> > > Why play the game then? Why "turn my back" on my culture as you put
> > > it? Well, one I don't see it as turning my back on anything. But that
> > > notwithstanding, I simply love the game. To suggest that I should
> > > "stick with my kind" and thus not play ultimate is a rather racist
> > > notion from this perspective, don't you think?
>
> > depends....it could be perceived as an active protest to the subtle
> > racism
>
> Racism on who's part? Who's being racist here? I mean, other than
> you?
>
> > > So to me the black power symbol on the DTB shirts represents
> > > solidarity with other ultimate players of color and an implicit
> > > statement, of yes, sometimes it can be tough to play in this mostly
> > > white world of frisbee, but there are others of us like you, so stay
> > > strong and keep playing.
>
> > so it IS a leftist movement?
>
> Leftists, generally speaking, support greater state control of
> economic production and the redistribution of wealth and power. What
> does that have to do with race identification in ultimate?
>
> ~p
punto.....this is an A B conversation........why dont you C your way
out of it.
pinto
> punto.....this is an A B conversation........why dont you C your way
> out of it.
I think you're confused. A private conversation would be where the
two of you emailed each other, in private.
A public conversation would be where you were talking things out in an
open forum on the internets.
Violating a private conversation would be where someone sent you an
email privately, and you posted it publicly without permission.
That's more of an ulticritic thing than a pinto thing.
~p
Reggie Fanelli
> okay with using queer as a negative?
---what does 'trot out' mean?
and.....NO.
no one ever said...it's ok to use queer as a negative.
my friend/coworker said that he thinks it's ok to say...'don't be
gay'...or...'that's gay'...
whether you are gay or not...he says it's ok with him.
like.....'you're gay'....or....'don't be so gay'
not negative.....just....gay....whatever un-sexual-ism you wanna make
it.....
Reggie Fanelli
> > out of it.
>
> I think you're confused. A private conversation would be where the
> two of you emailed each other, in private.
--don't be gay...he wasn't talking to you.
and...the ABC thing was nice work toad!