Wonderful, well Wisconsin's last final exam date is the 17th. I understand the desire to partner with CSTV but how many other state schools out there are not going to be able to get out there? Sure expanding the community is a big part of the UPA, but disallowing the people who are already a part of the community to participate for the possibility of gaining some new media interest seems to go against the wishes of all the people paying membership dues.
By the way, "Feedback was gathered from UPA staff, UPA Board members, and teams that had attended the 2007 UPA College Championships." What teams are they talking about?
On Dec 1, 12:21 am, cullen <stalking...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wonderful, well Wisconsin's last final exam date is the 17th. I > understand the desire to partner with CSTV but how many other state > schools out there are not going to be able to get out there?
Why are we just concerned in state schools? Not interested in what Stanford or CUT has to say?
Anyway, the following school's final exams do not conflict: UCSB, Florida, Colorado, Oregon, Carleton, Stanford.
Some teams give up graduation, finals, and all kinds of other things every year. Pick a weekend in May. Some school is going to get the short end of the stick.
> Wonderful, well Wisconsin's last final exam date is the 17th. I > understand the desire to partner with CSTV but how many other state > schools out there are not going to be able to get out there? Sure > expanding the community is a big part of the UPA, but disallowing the > people who are already a part of the community to participate for the > possibility of gaining some new media interest seems to go against the > wishes of all the people paying membership dues.
> By the way, "Feedback was gathered from UPA staff, UPA Board members, > and teams that had attended the 2007 UPA College Championships." What > teams are they talking about?
> On Nov 30, 5:50 pm, degnanNOS...@gmail.com wrote:
This is why there contingency plans are established when conflicts arise. Colleges are not oblivious to the discrepancies in athletic competition dates and academic testing dates, and are willing to make concessions. This is why football and basketball athletes on varsity teams are allowed to miss finals to travel to play games, only to make up the exam either before or after there travel schedule. You can't have a double standard for two separate groups of students who engage in athletic competition. I'm not an expert on Wisconsin-Madison's policies and procedures regarding applications of this sort, but it seems universal that you can't have varsity athletes be allowed to reschedule testing and not recognized club sport athletes. That would be a violation of students' rights.
> On Nov 30, 11:21 pm, cullen <stalking...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Wonderful, well Wisconsin's last final exam date is the 17th. I > > understand the desire to partner with CSTV but how many other state > > schools out there are not going to be able to get out there? Sure > > expanding the community is a big part of the UPA, but disallowing the > > people who are already a part of the community to participate for the > > possibility of gaining some new media interest seems to go against the > > wishes of all the people paying membership dues.
> > By the way, "Feedback was gathered from UPA staff, UPA Board members, > > and teams that had attended the 2007 UPA College Championships." What > > teams are they talking about?
> > On Nov 30, 5:50 pm, degnanNOS...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is why there contingency plans are established when conflicts > arise. Colleges are not oblivious to the discrepancies in athletic > competition dates and academic testing dates, and are willing to make > concessions. This is why football and basketball athletes on varsity > teams are allowed to miss finals to travel to play games, only to make > up the exam either before or after there travel schedule. You can't > have a double standard for two separate groups of students who engage > in athletic competition. I'm not an expert on Wisconsin-Madison's > policies and procedures regarding applications of this sort, but it > seems universal that you can't have varsity athletes be allowed to > reschedule testing and not recognized club sport athletes. That would > be a violation of students' rights.
> Grant
Students' rights?
I am sure that the equal treatment of varsity and club sports athletes is not a universally recognized concept. In speaking from personal experience, it can be a quite a challenge dealing with a school administration in attempting to reschedule final exams for ultimate players participating in the club sports program when they conflict with college nationals, whereas varsity athletes are granted more leniency in rescheduling.
In any event, certainly every weekend in May has some type of conflict for a number of schools that compete in the UPA series. I'm pretty sure in the northeast at least, Brown (and Williams?) has had graduation on Memorial Day weekend in the past (and if Brown wasn't competing on Sunday, I think that the seniors would fly home Saturday night for commencement the next day). Other schools still have final exams taking place during the Memorial Day weekend -- though my guess is that those schools are fewer and far between.
> > On Nov 30, 11:21 pm, cullen <stalking...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Wonderful, well Wisconsin's last final exam date is the 17th. I > > > understand the desire to partner with CSTV but how many other state > > > schools out there are not going to be able to get out there? Sure > > > expanding the community is a big part of the UPA, but disallowing the > > > people who are already a part of the community to participate for the > > > possibility of gaining some new media interest seems to go against the > > > wishes of all the people paying membership dues.
> > > By the way, "Feedback was gathered from UPA staff, UPA Board members, > > > and teams that had attended the 2007 UPA College Championships." What > > > teams are they talking about?
> > > On Nov 30, 5:50 pm, degnanNOS...@gmail.com wrote:
> > This is why there contingency plans are established when conflicts > > arise. Colleges are not oblivious to the discrepancies in athletic > > competition dates and academic testing dates, and are willing to make > > concessions. This is why football and basketball athletes on varsity > > teams are allowed to miss finals to travel to play games, only to make > > up the exam either before or after there travel schedule. You can't > > have a double standard for two separate groups of students who engage > > in athletic competition. I'm not an expert on Wisconsin-Madison's > > policies and procedures regarding applications of this sort, but it > > seems universal that you can't have varsity athletes be allowed to > > reschedule testing and not recognized club sport athletes. That would > > be a violation of students' rights.
> > Grant
> Students' rights?
> I am sure that the equal treatment of varsity and club sports athletes > is not a universally recognized concept. In speaking from personal > experience, it can be a quite a challenge dealing with a school > administration in attempting to reschedule final exams for ultimate > players participating in the club sports program when they conflict > with college nationals, whereas varsity athletes are granted more > leniency in rescheduling.
> In any event, certainly every weekend in May has some type of conflict > for a number of schools that compete in the UPA series. I'm pretty > sure in the northeast at least, Brown (and Williams?) has had > graduation on Memorial Day weekend in the past (and if Brown wasn't > competing on Sunday, I think that the seniors would fly home Saturday > night for commencement the next day). Other schools still have final > exams taking place during the Memorial Day weekend -- though my guess > is that those schools are fewer and far between.
> Josh McCarthy
Without diverting too much from the original topic in this thread, I'm only making the assertion that a rescheduling of Nationals shouldn't warrant the withdrawal of several prominent teams. Obviously there are differences in club and varsity athletics as well as differences from school to school on this issue, but for the sake of cullen's argument, the depressing nature of his comments shouldn't be a cause for concern that qualifying teams like Wisconsin won't show up come May... unless carnival monkeys kidnap the team.
To get back to the original topic, I think Boulder is a fantastic choice for Nationals this upcoming year because of the likelihood of a world class operation from the UPA coinciding with the inclusion of ultimate in CSTV's Collegiate Nationals package.
On Dec 1, 12:21 am, cullen <stalking...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wonderful, well Wisconsin's last final exam date is the 17th. I > understand the desire to partner with CSTV but how many other state > schools out there are not going to be able to get out there?
Please. Student-athletes deal with conflicts like this all the time. Every school that qualifies will attend.
Exam schedules are posted at the beginning of the semester. If you have a Friday or Saturday exam, talk to your professor after the first class in January. Tell them your conflict, and offer to do whatever they want (take it early, take it late, do a project in stead, et cetera) to work around the conflict. Most professors are pretty understanding about it. If not, take it a different semester.
The date is not really what concerns me. I mean some schools are ok with athletes changing up their finals schedules and some schools are not. UCSD didn't give 2 shits about athletics and would fail you if you missed a final. But we finished in mid june so it really didn't matter. Yale babies the crap out of their students and they can miss anything for any reason.
What concerns me is the status of Rob and Ultivillage at nationals now. I dunno about you guys but I think CSTV coverage sucks ass. That guy who does the commentating does everything from disc to women's dirt biking to lax. I don't want some corporate poster boy talking about my sport, it is insulting. I think kyle is a good side man in the booth but I would rather see ben and kyle or some other better pairing.
Ok thats not really the main problem. No one can watch CSTV. i mean there are some cable networks out there that have it and maybe you catch ultimate at like 4am on a tuesday but come on, you poll any college ultimate player, where do they watch most of their ultimate footage? It's gotta be ultivillage. I'd like to think I have a pretty good grasp of the ultimate video footage available, so I think my opinion matters. If you don't agree then fine, enjoy your CSTV, but for me, ultivillage is the cream of the crop. Rob cranks his stuff out so damn fast it is insane. It is everything an ultimate player wants. Who gives a shit about CSTV? I mean more exposure? more credibility? you make our sport sound so pussy. If your sport is awesome (which ours is) you don't have to go around telling people how great it is or little brother yourself into Div III sporting events or whatever. You play your game and you play it the best you can. If folks like it they like, if not, fuck em. Rob has worked so hard and so diligently and it is a shame that the people that really like his stuff (the ultimate players and fans out there) don't get to decide this course of action. I bitched about this on my blog awhile back (http://matchdiesel.blogspot.com/2007/08/cstv-vs- ultivillage.html) and I really just wish the UPA would help Rob out more. I mean the guy sponsors so many tournaments and he brings ultimate to us in a fashion that isn't patronizing. His contribution to the game is unparalleled and to have college ultimate walk down the CSTV path is just sad. I hope you guys all have a copy of Disc 2 and maybe some UvTv footage from last year cuz if this is the way things go, you're never gonna see college nationals footage again. You won't ever be able to own it, to download it, to show it off. You are stuck with that crap ass CSTV windows media bullshit that always snags, poor resolution and lame ass commentary. How many people have seen or know about the epic Colorado/Stanford double game point pool play game from nationals in 2006? Or the Stanford/Oregon upset in quarters that year? Or the semi finals game between UCSD and Colorado in 2005? you know why you don't? Because Rob couldn't film it. He didn't even bother coming to nationals in 2006 because he couldn't film anything. Get used to it. Maybe some folks don't care. But I do. I was even there, I saw Georgia upset Colorado in Quarters in 2006, I saw Brown win nationals in 2005, but most people weren't there and most folks will never get to see it, if only on a TV. CSTV has been the UPA's broadcasting partner for the last 6 years? Where is the Stanford 2002 nationals footage? I would give my right eye to see that team play. What about the Oregon/CUT semi finals game from 2003? I have 12 ultivillage videos from college nationals from just this past year, what is CSTV's giving out?
Sorry, I am just ranting. I like Rob's stuff a lot. A lot of what I have been able to write about on my blog is because Rob has brought tournaments to my computer that I otherwise would never have been able to see. We love you Rob.
It seems to me that the UPA has fallen behind in representing what ultimate players want. Aside from a half-ass survey they put out every year to apparently garner the opinions and ideas of the membership at large, there really isn't much communication to the membership of what directions they are considering taking with our sport. We tend to find out what they are doing after they make the decisions and it's too late to change their mind. Does this make sense?
Why does the UPA sell us out to a 2-bit cable channel that no-one gets and is just about as lame as Comcast local. I could see them selling out to ESPN (even 'The Ocho") but CSTV? Rob could do a better job with 1 camera and a Wiggins than CSTV can do with how ever many they have and their lame-ass commentator.
Aside from that, decisions ranging from numbers on shorts, locations of various regional tournaments, and various other opportunities to represent the wishes of their constituents have been misguided and unfocused. I'm pretty sure it isnt the fault of the individuals representing us; the problem lies in the structure of the governing body itself. I dont know how we would be able to change the structure of the UPA, I think once Cultimate starts holding its own championship series they'll get the hint and start thinking about the quality of their decisions.
> Wonderful, well Wisconsin's last final exam date is the 17th. I > understand the desire to partner with CSTV but how many other state > schools out there are not going to be able to get out there? Sure > expanding the community is a big part of the UPA, but disallowing the > people who are already a part of the community to participate for the > possibility of gaining some new media interest seems to go against the > wishes of all the people paying membership dues.
> By the way, "Feedback was gathered from UPA staff, UPA Board members, > and teams that had attended the 2007 UPA College Championships." What > teams are they talking about?
> On Nov 30, 5:50 pm, degnanNOS...@gmail.com wrote:
May 17th is apparently the end of Finals "Week". How many people have had finals on friday? I've been in school for many years at many places, and never had a friday final.
I think the decision is consistant with the UPA's stated goal of increasing membership. Any serious ultimate player who has seen both CSTV and UV would agree that UV has better coverage. But UV can't provide the advertising and increased viewership that CSTV can. So we are stuck with mediocre coverage unless the UPA can convince CSTV to somehow: - Increase the amount of gametime filmed and distributed - Increase the knowledge of commentators and cameramen - Focus more on the games (ie less time on the origins of team names, cheers, splashing the CSTV logo all over the place, etc) - Improve editing. American football takes advantages of play stoppages all the time (instant replays, short interviews, commercials etc.) There is no reason to include all the standing about that occurs in ultimate if you have only so much time to show the game.
I'd have to say that right now, I don't believe CSTV's coverage is that effective at improving membership because the finished product represents our sport so poorly. I'm grateful that they try, but when they demand exclusive coverage and the product significantly worse then UltiVillage, I have to say that we deserve better. My hope is that because this is a big event for CSTV, they will try to improve their coverage. Or perhaps they will be receptive to new ideas.
On Dec 1, 11:53 am, michael.fied...@yale.edu wrote:
> Who gives a shit about CSTV? I mean more exposure? > more credibility? you make our sport sound so pussy.
You're right, more credibility and exposure are such pussy pursuits. Nascar and the NFL must be full of full-fledged pussies.
> He didn't even > bother coming to nationals in 2006 because he couldn't film anything. > Get used to it. Maybe some folks don't care. But I do. I was even > there, I saw Georgia upset Colorado in Quarters in 2006, I saw Brown > win nationals in 2005, but most people weren't there and most folks > will never get to see it, if only on a TV. CSTV has been the UPA's > broadcasting partner for the last 6 years? Where is the Stanford 2002 > nationals footage? I would give my right eye to see that team play. > What about the Oregon/CUT semi finals game from 2003? I have 12 > ultivillage videos from college nationals from just this past year, > what is CSTV's giving out?
Do your homework Match. - Rob WAS at college nationals last year. He taped until finals and made it available online & for purchase. - CSTV didn't cover nationals in '02. 2008 is the sixth straight year, 2003 was the first. - The UPA has repeatedly offered CSTV DVD's for sale, including the one with the Ego/CUT '03 semi.
Your criticisms of the production values of the CSTV broadcasts have some merit however.
> On Dec 1, 11:53 am, michael.fied...@yale.edu wrote:
> > Who gives a shit about CSTV? I mean more exposure? > > more credibility? you make our sport sound so pussy.
> You're right, more credibility and exposure are such pussy pursuits. > Nascar and the NFL must be full of full-fledged pussies.
> > He didn't even > > bother coming to nationals in 2006 because he couldn't film anything. > > Get used to it. Maybe some folks don't care. But I do. I was even > > there, I saw Georgia upset Colorado in Quarters in 2006, I saw Brown > > win nationals in 2005, but most people weren't there and most folks > > will never get to see it, if only on a TV. CSTV has been the UPA's > > broadcasting partner for the last 6 years? Where is the Stanford 2002 > > nationals footage? I would give my right eye to see that team play. > > What about the Oregon/CUT semi finals game from 2003? I have 12 > > ultivillage videos from college nationals from just this past year, > > what is CSTV's giving out?
> Do your homework Match. > - Rob WAS at college nationals last year. He taped until finals and > made it available online & for purchase. > - CSTV didn't cover nationals in '02. 2008 is the sixth straight year, > 2003 was the first. > - The UPA has repeatedly offered CSTV DVD's for sale, including the > one with the Ego/CUT '03 semi.
> Your criticisms of the production values of the CSTV broadcasts have > some merit however.
last college nationals would be the 2007 nationals not the 06 where rob was apparently absent
> On Dec 1, 11:53 am, michael.fied...@yale.edu wrote: > - The UPA has repeatedly offered CSTV DVD's for sale, including the > one with the Ego/CUT '03 semi.
Is it still available? If so, where can you buy the DVD with that semi?
On Dec 1, 4:25 pm, Manzell <manz...@reaxion.org> wrote:
> On Nov 30, 11:21 pm, cullen <stalking...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Wonderful, well Wisconsin's last final exam date is the 17th. I > > understand the desire to partner with CSTV but how many other state > > schools out there are not going to be able to get out there? Sure > > expanding the community is a big part of the UPA, but disallowing the > > people who are already a part of the community to participate for the > > possibility of gaining some new media interest seems to go against the > > wishes of all the people paying membership dues.
> > By the way, "Feedback was gathered from UPA staff, UPA Board members, > > and teams that had attended the 2007 UPA College Championships." What > > teams are they talking about?
Actually the 17th is a Saturday and, indeed, Wisconsin finals go all the way to Saturday. Every year.
> May 17th is apparently the end of Finals "Week". How many people have > had finals on friday? I've been in school for many years at many > places, and never had a friday final.
I also wasn't exactly sure where the 6th year came into affect so '02 stanford, '03 CUT/Oregon, I figured I would get it right with one of them.
I suppose what really bugs me is that I have tried to look up CSTV footage before. I have been really interested in seeing the performance of Stanford in each of their 4 straight semis performances and I can't find it. Good luck, if you can find it, let me know, I want to see it.
Its funny that you say do your HW, that is exactly what I am trying to do. I love researching ultimate. Every aspect of the game, weird shit that no one cares about but I do. I want to be able to find video footage of every game I am interested in and if CSTV gets control, I won't be able to do that. Go find me Cal/Brown semis when Zipp was a Junior and Watson was a 1st year grad student. Good luck.
maybe its a question of interface. CSTV offers DVDs, cable or whatever, but Rob packages his footage SO well and it is so easy for me to find exactly what I want. Truth be told, i don't care about CSTV, it is a non entity. i don't know why the UPA cares.
I suppose I am the extreme. I want every tournament game at my fingertips not unlike the way ESPN broadcasts NCAA football or whatever. I just don't think CSTV can do that or even cares to. What makes matters worse is that we don't have to depend on CSTV, we have an alternative, a better alternative and we aren't going with it. I know a lot of frisbee players and I would be hard pressed to find 1 that wants CSTV footage over ultivillage.
No animosity, I just want the game packaged the best way possible. The one thing that sucks about college nationals is that the finals footage is bogus. One reason why club is better.
> - The UPA has repeatedly offered CSTV DVD's for sale, including the > one with the Ego/CUT '03 semi.
The CSTV DVDs I got were garbage. Instead of including commercials, there is just black time. Black screen for 30 seconds. That is unforgivable. Completely unprofessional. I am insulted that CSTV would even consider selling such a raw product without a huge disclaimer accompanying it. They try to disguise it with their professional-looking DVD labels, but it would really be more appropriate if the disc were labeled in crayon.
The complaints about CSTV being difficult to get are also valid. I would strongly prefer a UPA-sponsored effort to get Nationals footage aired on public access channels across the country. This would at least increase the potential number of viewers by an order of magnitude. Also, is CSTV still getting paid by the UPA for coverage of Nationals, or has it balanced out? In my opinion, the sooner we can sever ties to CSTV, the better. But should the relationship continue, please feel free to e-mail me for an assessment of whether the CSTV DVD is total crap, in case UPA quality-control standards don't catch it.
I'm actually pleased with the efforts the UPA is putting in to improve exposure of ultimate. I just think this was a dry well and it's time to move on.
Yo Match, I just watched the entire Brown/Cal semi of which you speak on youtube. Someone posted the CSTV thing; i don't know the legality of that though.
This is not to say that I dont agree with you. Fuck CSTV, go Rob. Just thought you might wanna see it. Just search for "brown cal semi" pumba squid 71
> The CSTV DVDs I got were garbage. Instead of including commercials, > there is just black time. Black screen for 30 seconds. That is > unforgivable. Completely unprofessional. I am insulted that CSTV > would even consider selling such a raw product without a huge > disclaimer accompanying it.
This seems a bit extreme to me. I too own the CSTV package; the only year in which there were long blackouts for commercial breaks was 2003 - the '04 and '05 DVDs corrected this problem. Hardly "completely unprofessional", considering what I found to be more than decent video quality and camera work. Not perfect by any means, but when you pay $25 for 5 DVDs that cover Open and Women's semis and finals for 2003-05, your criticisms seem somewhat undeserved. And by the way, for anyone that thinks this coverage is so rare and hard to find, you should check out the "Store" link on upa.org - they may not be plastering ads for this DVD set on billboards all across America, but the UPA Store is far from out of reach of Ultimate enthusiasts.
That being said, I am also a long-time UVTV subscriber and UltiVillage patron. What Rob has done for ultimate is without compare, and I think he deserves all of our support. I would favor a UPA split from CSTV in favor of granting filming rights to Rob, but that may not be possible, at least for the time being. If this is the case, it seems that working with CSTV to improve Ultimate coverage (commentary, releases of DVDs, airtime on the CSTV network, etc.) would be in the best interest of the sport. Contrary to what some people on this board seem to think, CSTV coverage is not the end of Ultimate, but indignant ranting is no way to improve it.
aside from college attendance issues, can anyone (maybe someone on the Board?) tell us if CSTV has thoughts towards airing Nationals live? presumably not for 2008, but is it something CSTV may be considering if we hit certain targets in viewership?
> sure in the northeast at least, Brown (and Williams?) has had > graduation on Memorial Day weekend in the past (and if Brown wasn't > competing on Sunday, I think that the seniors would fly home Saturday > night for commencement the next day).
Williams' graduation is June 1st, but our finals are the 14th - 19th. What exactly was the reasoning behind the choice of date? It seems like the first consideration for the choice of date should be convenience for the college teams going to college nationals, rather than anything else. And while some colleges have graduation during Memorial Day (only Brown U. as far as I can tell from this discussion), final exams are a little bit more important than wearing a dumb gown. The UPA should take the availability of the majority of college teams into consideration over sponsorship. Looking at the academic calendars for the open teams from last year's nationals, if those same 16 teams made nationals again, five would have finals during this year's natties, including the returning national champions.
I just think that the UPA needs to think about who it's putting on these events for, and who they're willing to inconvenience (and what they're willing to sacrifice) in order to achieve these goals. The people watching CSTV (at 4am on a Tuesday) aren't seeing the best games possible if the Hodags aren't playing. The truth is, CSTV doesn't reach the people that need to be educated about ultimate (drunk frat guys already know what ultimate is). And I know that I've only been to nationals once (as a super-fan for WUFO), but thanks for letting me rant.
~Tall Williams La Wufa #30
PS: As for rescheduling ultimate players' exams, I can see the conversation right now:
ultimate player: "Hi Professor, um, I need to reschedule my final because I'm going to be playing at ultimate frisbee nationals in boulder, colorado that day." prof: "Ulti-what?" player: "Frisbee, sir. Ultimate frisbee. It's a sport." prof: "OH! Is that the one you play with the dogs?" player: "Um, no. There's teams that play against each other and actually, you could go to upa.org and learn about it." prof: "Yeah, that's gonna happen. I can't let you take the test at a different date because then I'd have to change it for everyone that needs to be in their common room at the time of the test to watch Spongebob Squarepants. You'll take the test when it's scheduled. And have fun playing with your frisbee."
Well at the major state school that I attend(ed) (Florida), teachers had to allow students to make up tests/be excused from class and whatnot if we only had a letter from our faculty sponsor...
> > not memorial weekend. nobody conflicts with a national holiday.
> Wrong -- Brown graduates Memorial Day. Every year.
Delaware graduates the Saturday before Memorial Day every year... except this year, for some screwy reason... graduation is Saturday the 31st... and I think the University plans to have finals on Memorial Day (seems that way from the school website). Shouldn't that be illegal? But regardless, finals start Friday the 23rd, so Delaware either graduates OR has finals Memorial Day weekend every year.
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