Nice short article about Ultimate in Asia
Camilo Rostoker
interesting:
http://www.cnngo.com/explorations/none/ultimate-frisbee-hardcore-527411
Heinousboy
Wow, I don't want to tell people I play ultimate anymore. Can we
please call it something else.
BANK
The main problem is that the author made it seems like mixed was like
all the rest of ultimate. I guess you could call it super awesome boys
frisbee football. I'll bet those RPI dudes are pretty down with that.
Also, wtf is up with all those stupid definitions...
jim
5 million ultimate players in the US......UMMM BULLSHIT!!!....not
anywhere even close to that number.
There is roughly 3.7 million youth soccer players in the US....and
youth soccer is everywhere.
The author of this article is just wrong about that number....maybe he
meant 5 thousand...i stopped reading the article after I saw that
number.
Frank
'you all must be verrrrrryyyy proud.
You can't BUY this kind of press.
Kyle Weisbrod
The numbers in the article are from the Sporting Good
Manufacturers Association (SGMA) who runs real surveys on
this type of stuff and are considered the authority on
sports participation in America.
That number is from 2008 and includes casual players as well
(so people that played pick-up at a picnic or played in gym
class or whatever else). Here's another article that uses
that same number: http://www.cnbc.com/id/30138012.
Certainly the "organized participation" number is far lower
(although, as I recall, they estimate that around 1 million
people play 25+ times/year).
And, yes, that article could have been much better for the
sport.
-Kyle
--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com
Frank
So, out of that 5,000,000, the UPA has had 74 rebroadcasts of their
national championship.
Please tell me again why you think that Ultimate is a legitimate
spectator sport.
Kyle Weisbrod
http://www.rsdnospam.com/index.php?t=msg&th=13964&goto=48672&#msg_48672
Let's not let facts get in the way of your delusion.
Frank
> Shhh...http://www.rsdnospam.com/index.php?t=msg&th=13964&goto=48672&#msg_48672
Really?
I got my numbers straight off the delusional UPA website then.
Frank
Actually, I stand corrected. One more person out of that 5,000,000
watched it since yesterday so we're up to 75.
wow. Maybe if there were more 'Land Sharks' and 'Land Porpoises' you
may be able to cross the century mark.
Pasquale Anthony Leonardo
> 5 million ultimate players in the US......UMMM BULLSHIT!!!....not
> anywhere even close to that number.
> There is roughly 3.7 million youth soccer players in the US....and
> youth soccer is everywhere.
> The author of this article is just wrong about that number....maybe he
> meant 5 thousand...i stopped reading the article after I saw that
> number.
Yeah -- no way 5 million. But *finally* we have some numbers (long
hidden) from Wham-O telling us how many Frisbees® are sold in the
United States and Canada.
We tried to get some of this info from WhamO for "The First Four
Decades" but they wouldn't tell us. My guess is that the SGMA (who
came up with the number) simply polled sporting good's manufacturers
and distributors and got the number 5 million from correlating
Frisbee® sales. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Ultimate. In
fact, I am willing to bet that 74 of those 5,000,000 Frisbee®s were
used to play Disc Hoops. Clearly, the numbers are skewed.
But... I wonder if Discraft is paying attention. If they get some
traction in distribution they could maybe make some serious money
going up against Wham-O....
TL
Kyle Weisbrod
You are wrong. They conduct surveys of people around the
country. I believe their sample size is somewhere between
20,000 and 50,000 people.
-Kyle
Pasquale Anthony Leonardo
Really? But they are interested in selling Sporting Goods, correct?
This group is funded by Sporting Goods Manufactuers, correct? IE, do
they receive money from Wham-O, Rawlings, Spalding etc?
you would know more than I do about SGMA -- but do you believe, in any
way, a number of 5 million? Or the number "847,000 people in north
American play ultimate 25 times or more a year" from 2007?
Pasquale Anthony Leonardo
here are the board members of the SGMA:
https://www.sgma.com/about/board/
Nike, Speedo, Wilson, Adidas, Under Armour, Prince, etc
Kyle Weisbrod
probably surveying people to figure out what sporting goods
they should manufacture.
One more click would have gotten you to the info on the
report they put out:
https://www.sgma.com/reports/249_2009-Sports-and-Fitness-Participation-Report---The-Complete-Version-
Looks like their sample size is 41,500.
A few years ago Sandie and I lobbied Wham-O to encourage
SGMA to include Ultimate on their survey because we figured
the information would be good and would help the sport's
recognition.
Do 5,000,000 play Ultimate? I don't think it's all that
unreasonable to believe that 1 out of every 75 or so people
played one game of Ultimate in 2008. I do know that they
are asking a lot more people about it than you, I, the UPA
or Jim are.
Heinousboy
> Yes, it is made up of Sporting Good Manufacturers. They are
> probably surveying people to figure out what sporting goods
> they should manufacture.
>
> One more click would have gotten you to the info on the
>
> Looks like their sample size is 41,500.
>
> A few years ago Sandie and I lobbied Wham-O to encourage
> SGMA to include Ultimate on their survey because we figured
> the information would be good and would help the sport's
> recognition.
>
> Do 5,000,000 play Ultimate? I don't think it's all that
> unreasonable to believe that 1 out of every 75 or so people
> played one game of Ultimate in 2008. I do know that they
> are asking a lot more people about it than you, I, the UPA
> or Jim are.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
How did you guys even get to that part of the article? I stopped
reading about the time the author said his inspiration for playing
ultimate was seeing a guy clutching a disc between his ass cheeks.
Pasquale Anthony Leonardo
>
> Do 5,000,000 play Ultimate? I don't think it's all that
> unreasonable to believe that 1 out of every 75 or so people
> played one game of Ultimate in 2008. I do know that they
> are asking a lot more people about it than you, I, the UPA
> or Jim are.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Kyle
I think using the SGMA numbers is smart. Having the UPA contact them
and get that in there is also very smart.
When writng the book Joe Seidler spent a great amount of time trying
to deduce the number of Ultimate players in North America. It was
quite difficult. We tallied colleges, league totals, UPA numbers and
some other factors and came up with about 200,000. This was in 2004.
Since we couldn't reasonably prove this number, we didn't use it. I'm
not walking around asking strangers if they've played ultimate and
tallying the results.
Let's remember that SGMA is not only using the polling numbers to
decide what sports products to manufacture to people, they are using
the numbers to prop up the industry. There are lobbyists involved and
the numbers reflect strength in the manufacturing and retail sections
of the economy. The numbers are also used to gauge the potential
market for their products.
But i cannot take the numbers at face value without knowing the survey
results and the survey questions. Do you know the answer or did the
SGMA tell you:
1) what is their definition of "ultimate"?
2) they based their numbers on surveys of 41,500 people. What were the
survey questions pertaining to ultimate frisbee?
3) who were these 41,500 people?
As a member of the SGMA, the UPA must be privvy to these answers?
Also -- the 5 million number represents "number of people who have
played ultimate once in the past year" -- is that correct? and 847,000
is "more than 25 times in the year"? I just want to confirm because i
do not have the data and results myself
i think those are fair, reasonable and expected questions we need to
have answered before using those numbers -- especially in light of the
fact that UPA numbers + league numbers + college teams + all evidence
we've been able to gather, suggests far different numbers.
Tony
Baer
unflattering characterizations to inaccuracy. Since some of you are
debating the participation numbers, I'll play:
On Dec 23, 3:00 pm, Kyle Weisbrod <kyle.weisb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do 5,000,000 play Ultimate? I don't think it's all that
> unreasonable to believe that 1 out of every 75 or so people
> played one game of Ultimate in 2008.
Um, yeah, I think that is unreasonable. Think about the population of
any US city and divide by 75. Are there realistically that many
Ultimate players?
Let's take some of the most active hotbeds for Ultimate at different
sized locations. Seattle has a metro population of 3.5 million. 1 out
of 75 is over 46,000 Ultimate players. Are there that many in Seattle?
I don't know, maybe, Ultimate sure is a big deal in Seattle. Madison
was a population of over 200,000, divided by 75 is over 2600 players.
That seems possible. But Seattle and Madison are not typical of the
rest of the country. Maybe someone with more facts about the Ultimate-
playing demographics of Seattle and Madison can enlighten me, but 1
out of 75 in the whole country seems far-fetched.
We can also look at the Denver/Boulder area, which Kyle and I are both
intimately familiar with. Total metro area has about 3 million.
Ultimate is somewhat popular in Denver/Boulder, but there is no way
you could find 40,000 Ultimate players. There might not be that many
people in the area who even know what Ultimate is, even in UPA HQ's
backyard.
And also, playing one game does not make someone an Ultimate player.
Having an introductory session in gym class does not count unless you
want to also say that every kid in the country is also a basketball
player, weight lifter, swimmer, and runner.
5 million Ultimate players in the US? No way. I would be honestly
surprised if 5 million people in America have heard of Ultimate and
can accurately describe the sport.
False numbers and hyperbole probably can't be good for the sport.
Neither is the insinuation in this article that all Ultimate players
get carried around naked and then get drunk (even if true, it doesn't
help our cause). Wow, I spent way too much time writing and thinking
about this.
jim
> Yes, it is made up of Sporting Good Manufacturers. They are
> probably surveying people to figure out what sporting goods
> they should manufacture.
>
> One more click would have gotten you to the info on the
>
> Looks like their sample size is 41,500.
>
> A few years ago Sandie and I lobbied Wham-O to encourage
> SGMA to include Ultimate on their survey because we figured
> the information would be good and would help the sport's
> recognition.
>
> Do 5,000,000 play Ultimate? I don't think it's all that
> unreasonable to believe that 1 out of every 75 or so people
> played one game of Ultimate in 2008. I do know that they
> are asking a lot more people about it than you, I, the UPA
> or Jim are.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
maybe 1 out of every 75 people threw a frisbee...or have played a game
of ultimate.
keep dreaming about 5 million (or even 100,000) people playing
ultimate in the US.
kinda goes to show you that statistics can be skewed to show many
things if you are trying to push something....kyle you sound like a
politician to me with those stats.
beef it up.
liar.
Kyle Weisbrod
tweak you.
All I did was point out the survey that was done that
resulted in the quote that was used in the article.
In response to Tony, my understanding is that the question
is something along the lines of:
"How many times did you play Ultimate Frisbee this year?"
So, surely some of those people threw a frisbee and thought
they were playing "Ultimate" and said "Oh, yeah, I played
that (x number of) times."
I believe that their method is calling people and asking
them the survey questions.
In other (old) news: You can count the Redskins in the 2009
survey of people who play Ultimate:
http://chriscooley47.blogspot.com/2009/04/redskins-nation.html
Kyle Weisbrod
post:
"Ultimate is somewhat popular in Denver/Boulder, but there
is no way you could find 40,000 Ultimate players. There
might not be that many people in the area who even know what
Ultimate is"
and
"False numbers and hyperbole probably can't be good for the
sport."
I don't know if you are being serious but ask any high
school kid from any suburban high school in any major city
if they know what Ultimate frisbee is and chances are they
will not only know what it is but will have played it in gym
at least once in the past year.
Ask any student who has been at a residential college in the
past 10 years and ask them if they know what Ultimate is and
they will almost certainly know.
Yes, I agree the author of the article is miscommunicating
that statistic. But I can't see how it would be bad for
people to who read CNN Global to think that Ultimate is more
popular in the US than it actually is.
Rob
but I do remember that a random sample size of 1,110ish people gave
results that were good within + or - 3%. For some reason this stuck
with me. 41,000+ people provides a very accurate sample size.
And the fact that an organization that is funded by companies that
then use that organization's data for business purposes, is not
conspiricy theory fodder, but actually how a lot of research is
funded. There is no ultimate lobby pushing for exagerated ultimate
stats. The results we see in this survey are very cause and effect.
Ultimate is fun to play. Ultimate is cheap to play. More people play
ultimate. I think this recession will be great for the sport.
Rob
Frank
In the SF south bay area (San Jose, Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Los Gatos,
Mountain View, etc.), every high school and most every middle school
has a 2 week unit on Ultimate. Do the math and that is somewhere
around 25,000 kids annually (only freshman and part of sophomores have
PE class).
Multiply that by the peninsula/SF, north bay, east bay and what not
and you may have 100,000 just in the bay area alone (out of 8 million
people). I can see that using these kinds of numbers you'd be able to
get to 5,000,000.
These kids don't play because the game is fun or cheap, they play
because they have no choice.
You take high school kids out of the UPA's inflated number of 800,000
and you're left with what, 300,000 that play 25 times a year or more
(or 0.1%)?
Probably less.
These numbers just are not real although I'm sure the SGMA's methods
were fine.
They are nothing to say that the sport is exploding in growth. They
are so ridiculous that you have to throw the number away.
Frank
I'm guessing that there are around 5,000 that play regularly (once
every two weeks?).
Hell, lets round up to 8,000 to be liberal. Anyone in the bay area
want to refute that number SF winter league, SBUL, pickup games, club
teams. college teams.
That's 0.1%
0.1% of the US population is 300,000 which sounds about right. Not
the 800,000 the UPA likes to boast about (with only what, 35,000
actual members) and certainly no where near the 5,000,000 referenced
in this research.
Sure, there may be hotbeds that are higher than 0.1%, but the Bay Area
is no slouch and there must be most of the country below those numbers.
jim
> Wow, Jim, a little defensive, huh?
defensive?...not at all.
complete disbelief in your numbers?..or the numbers of any
organization which would come up with 5million?...yes.
Sorry, didn't mean to
> tweak you.
huh?
jim
> Jim,
>
> The numbers in the article are from the Sporting Good
> Manufacturers Association (SGMA) who runs real surveys on
> this type of stuff and are considered the authority on
> sports participation in America.
an organization which puts stats together to push product???????
kyle, are you getting paid by sgma? or ultimate companies?
or are you just debating for the fun of it.....i know i am....maybe i
am being too realistic and you aren't used to it.
> That number is from 2008 and includes casual players as well
> (so people that played pick-up at a picnic or played in gym
> class or whatever else).
or, someone who has ever thrown a frisbee????
Here's another article that uses
> that same number:http://www.cnbc.com/id/30138012.
wow, another absurd article exaggerating numbers.
got any more?
> Certainly the "organized participation" number is far lower
> (although, as I recall, they estimate that around 1 million
> people play 25+ times/year).
wait, is this a toad moment when you disprove your own point?
> And, yes, that article could have been much better for the
> sport.
the sport of ultimate could be much better.....for the sport.
ulticritic
>
> 5 million ultimate players in the US......UMMM BULLSHIT!!!....not
> anywhere even close to that number.
ya got to remember though......that counts every 7 year old that
played it (or a version of it) at some camp or school recess. The
figures are definitely scewed BUT skewed in such a way that the sport
SHOULD BE able to capitolize from it.
---------------------------------------------------------
> There is roughly 3.7 million youth soccer players in the US....and
> youth soccer is everywhere.
yea, aint NO WAY there is more youth ulti goin on than youth soccer.
ulticritic
>
> The numbers in the article are from the Sporting Good
> Manufacturers Association (SGMA) who runs real surveys on
> this type of stuff and are considered the authority on
> sports participation in America.
>
> That number is from 2008 and includes casual players as well
> (so people that played pick-up at a picnic or played in gym
> class or whatever else). Here's another article that uses
> that same number:http://www.cnbc.com/id/30138012.
> Certainly the "organized participation" number is far lower
> (although, as I recall, they estimate that around 1 million
> people play 25+ times/year).
why dont you guys (the upa) try and get some ACTUAL numbers on
that.......maybe by compiling lists of leagues throughout the nation
and get find out EXACTLY how many people play 25 times a year.
Surely such info would help the upa in other areas aside from "being
real"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> And, yes, that article could have been much better for the
> sport.
maybe they should have gayed it up to a miley cyrus tune
ulticritic
these are stats that the upa donsent want to face. They prefer
focusing on the 5 million that play (at picnics and such) to propagate
their delusional perspective. kyle is not one to be talking about
anybody else being delusional.
ulticritic
>
> - Show quoted text -
no doubt!!!! between shit like that, the big oragon debacle last year
and this rpi trudge video i dont know what the fuck to think about
this sport anymore.
ulticritic
i actually called and talked to the guy at sgma so if your really want
these answers you should give em a call.
ulticritic
>
> False numbers and hyperbole probably can't be good for the sport.
> Neither is the insinuation in this article that all Ultimate players
> get carried around naked and then get drunk (even if true, it doesn't
> help our cause).
thing is, there seem to be a ton of kooks out their that think its ,
"all good", harmeless fun, etc. shit, have you seen that rpi trudge
video? talk about thsit that "cant be good for the sport". but there
were still more people that seemed to support and appreciat that
display than were appauled by it. I think that a point is comming in
the near future where you will see a distinct split in the people that
play this sport for the spirity fun aspect and those that play it as a
real sport.......and the events and competition that are managed by
each
ulticritic
that just comes along with the exessive amount of koolaid kylke etal
has drank. he actually WANTS to believe this is true so he can
flourish the fantasy that ultimate cas grow very rapidly as a "player
controled" sport. BUT, you dont see the upa doing any polling or data
collecting of their own. Fact is, they dont want to know the brutal
truth about A LOT of things related to this sport.........specifically
the tollerance of MOST of the membership for alternative options to
rule enforcement and game management THAN JUST SOTG.
ulticritic
>
> I don't know if you are being serious but ask any high
> school kid from any suburban high school in any major city
> if they know what Ultimate frisbee is and chances are they
> will not only know what it is but will have played it in gym
> at least once in the past year.
well untill you or sombody can get those kids out of a gym class and
into an organized league (refs and all) then how in the fuck can you
realistically compare yourself to soccer. I think YOU kyle, need to
admit that these numbers are scewed and that ultimate still isnt even
really a blip on the radar when it comes to SPORTS......not just
filler activities for lazy gym teachers.
--------------------------------
>
> Ask any student who has been at a residential college in the
> past 10 years and ask them if they know what Ultimate is and
> they will almost certainly know.
yea, then ask em what they think of it as a sport
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yes, I agree the author of the article is miscommunicating
> that statistic. But I can't see how it would be bad for
> people to who read CNN Global to think that Ultimate is more
> popular in the US than it actually is.
its not bad for them......ITS BAD FOR YOU (and your upa
pals).......makes you delusional, complacent, satisfied. this is why
you guys are so far behind the trends of this sport.
ulticritic
>
> There is no ultimate lobby pushing for exagerated ultimate
> stats.
but theres an ultimate lobby thats flourishing these exagerated
stats.....and when us normal joes are rufuting them as being
exagerated yet the upa loyalist arent......... it makes one go
uhmmmmmm???
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The results we see in this survey are very cause and effect.
> Ultimate is fun to play. Ultimate is cheap to play. More people play
> ultimate. I think this recession will be great for the sport.
why rely on a recession when you can just incorporate better
presentation and marketing. Someone has got to be out their pushing
ultimate as a REAL SPORT so to drownd out and trivialize articals such
as this one that flourishes the kooky gay aspect of the sport. and it
seems that should be the role of the upa.
ulticritic
>
> These kids don't play because the game is fun or cheap, they play
> because they have no choice.
thats a damn good point.......and its gotta hurt. so i guess frank is
saying that if these kids were participating in little league ulti
then maybe thes figure would be valid.
ulticritic
>
> the sport of ultimate could be much better.....for the sport.
OH MAN!!!! snapp, crackle, pop!!!!!!
i think you can go "out" on that one jim.
how cicinct!!!!
Frank
What's worse Todd?
That RPI put together this ultra gay video or that 5 Ultimate selected
it as a winner to represent their product?
ulticritic
>
> - Show quoted text -
thats a toss up.
Frank
> Shhh...http://www.rsdnospam.com/index.php?t=msg&th=13964&goto=48672&#msg_48672
>
> Let's not let facts get in the way of your delusion.
>
> --
> Posted fromhttp://www.rsdnospam.com
Hey Kyle,
where did you and your delusions go?
You were happy to quote the 5,000,000 number that the SGMA provided
but when it's unanimous that those numbers are 10 times the real
numbers you've disappeared.
Sure, go ahead and label me as delusional. That's convenient. "Pay
no attention to the man behind the curtain". Nice misdirection play.
The truth of the matter is that the real number of regular ultimate
players in this country is closer to half a million than it is to five
million. You're only off by four million five hundred thousand.
Don't let this SGMA number go to your heads UPA. It's not real.