DO ULTIMATE PEOPLE HAVE THE SAME DISTAIN FOR REFS IN OTHER SPORTS THAT THEY DO FOR REFS IN ULTI????
ulticritic
bad mouth the referee system in the same way i bad mouth the sotg
system wen i watch ulti. And if so, what do any "normal folk" that
might be in ears shot say in response? or do you just comprehend that
you are completely outnumbered and keep you lip buttoned......on fear
of bein mocked and ridiculed? Of course now that the uoa is in my back
yard i can go watch a new and improved version that i find hard to bad
mouth and simply aviod being subjested to the archaic CRAP that is
traditional ultimate.
just wondering how and where the distinctions are made with ultimate
people (that buy into sotg) and how they react to other sports,
specifically when WATCHING professional presentations, and how they/
you come to terms with referees facilitating rule enforcement and game
management rather than them using sotg? do you just reject watching
and associating with it all together or is there some kind of a dual
personality thing going on?
richarda...@gmail.com
> I mean, do you people, when watching sporting events, sit there and
> bad mouth the referee system in the same way i bad mouth the sotg
Man, a little statement about spirit really threw you into full-gear
verbal diarrhea mode. Hasn't the ref question been beaten to death
already on RSD? Haven't you already alienated the silent and
invisible pro-ref majority into further silence and invisibility?
Don't you realize that sitting on your butt and shouting on the
internet all day won't get professional, refereed ultimate to displace
NBA games on the TV?
ThaddeusGolaas
hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and
still retain the ability to function."
I didn't say it, it was another native Minnesotan, F. Scott
Fitzgerald.
Why would anyone compare what is happening in professional
or high level collegiate sports on television to ultimate?
Was that your point? Do you imagine someone watching the
NFL or NBA and thinking that those guys should try playing
without referees?
I don't think the people who are against having referees in
ultimate are against referees in general for all sports. I
do think referees are going to be a part of ultimate at some
point, I know observers make the game more fun to play. I
think the most outstanding leap toward improving our game is
being made in Wilmington by a few talented if sometimes
misunderstood individuals.
Disdain? I don't think so.
--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com
ulticritic
<richardaustinw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:41 am, ulticritic <ulticri...@live.com> wrote:
>
> > I mean, do you people, when watching sporting events, sit there and
> > bad mouth the referee system in the same way i bad mouth the sotg
> > system wen i watch ulti blah blah blah blah
>
> Man, a little statement about spirit really threw you into full-gear
> verbal diarrhea mode.
why is asking a few simple questions "diarrhea mode"? sp ust answer
em and SHUT UP with all your other bullshit......or just shut up all
together.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hasn't the ref question been beaten to death
> already on RSD?
obviously not.......i mean, there are many people that have MUCH
intrest in their incorporation yet no one is, how you say, "steppin
up".
--------------------------------------
Haven't you already alienated the silent and
> invisible pro-ref majority into further silence and invisibility?
eh, thats their problem. they can be tight lipped pussies about it
and suffer the consequenses or they can step up and speak their mind.
And i'd say its the upa thats MUCH MORE responsible for their
apathy.......not me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Don't you realize that sitting on your butt and shouting on the
> internet all day won't get professional, refereed ultimate to displace
> NBA games on the TV?
who said anything about displacing nba........shit, ultimate has a
long way to go just to catch up to (MUCH LESS DISPLACE) sport
stacking. BUT SUERLY me doing this is better than me doing
NUTHIN......which is what every other ref proponent is doing.....aside
from jason w of the uoa.......i'm pretty sure hes a ref proponent. I
mean, just think if everyone that WAS a ref proponent would just voice
their opinion...........wouldnt that help more? You are in favor of
experimentation......so what are YOU doing to see that it happens?
jdb...@mail.missouri.edu
idea that ultimate should adopt refs simply because some people think
that refs will lead to ultimate on TV or "in the mainstream" or some
pie-in-the-sky B.S.
Ultimate should only institute changes that improve the game for those
who play it. At highly competative levels, this may mean some strong
observer/referee thing.
What is best for the players is the bottom line. Not potential
sponsors, not hypothetical spectators. Ulticritic doesn't just want
refs, he wants ultimate to twist in the wind of corporate whim...
Maybe dancing girls? Maybe trampolines? Maybe a big hoop you have to
throw the disc through? He wants to throw rule changes against the
wall and see what sticks.
If Ulticritic had his way, ultimate would end up like that stupid
basketball trampoline game you see on ESPN at 1:30 am. On TV, yes, but
totally gay.
ulticritic
> "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to
> hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and
> still retain the ability to function."
that sounds more like first rate hypocrasy to me?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I didn't say it, it was another native Minnesotan, F. Scott
> Fitzgerald.
so.....WHO THE FUCK IS HE.....and why is his opinion on the matter any
more valid that any old schmucks'?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why would anyone compare what is happening in professional
> or high level collegiate sports on television to ultimate?
i was actually comparing pee wee leagues to ulti too? is that a more
fair comparison? especially in light of how emotionally immature you
people are? arguing like whiney kids during even the most meanless of
games.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Was that your point? Do you imagine someone watching the
> NFL or NBA and thinking that those guys should try playing
> without referees?
yes, wasnt that painfully obvious.....i mean, they(b-ball, football
and ulti) are all catagorized as "sports" right? and officials are a
normal part of those other sports right? and one guy said he didnt
think refs would make ultimate any more entertaining? so wouldnt that
mean that they wouldnt make pro football or pro b-ball more
entertaining either? do YOU think they will add or detract from the
entertainment value of the weekends superbowl? i mean, cant you just
as easily imaging how the ABSENCE of refs would effect those sports
just as easily as you could imagine how their PRESENCE would effect
elite level ulti(presentationally speaking)..........OR, use the
comparison of how their role would work at lower levels in ulti from
examining how they work in lower(pee wee) levels of those same "other"
sports? both comparisons work.
----------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't think the people who are against having referees in
> ultimate are against referees in general for all sports.
and you dont find that inconsistant. i mean, why such opposition when
it comes to ulti (A SPORT) but not with other sports using refs. it
just dont jive. wouldnt that be like a devout christian watching
porn?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
> do think referees are going to be a part of ultimate at some
> point,
then why delay the inevitable......when we should be encouraging it?
cant you see the skism that sotg is causing with ultimate evolving
more rapidly
---------------------------------------------------------------
>I know observers make the game more fun to play.
yep.....its a good, better, best scenerio
upa observers.......good
uoa observers......better
full on refs.......best
of course you are probably completely ignorant of how "full on refs"
work in ultimate........so why not gain that knowledge so that you can
make an INFORMED decision on the matter. do you make simmilar
speculations about other things in your life? havent ya ever been
somewhat apprehensive about trying somthing new only to find that that
appreention was unfounded once you tried it......and liked it? and
dosent the fact they they are so commonplace IN the REST of the world
of sports COUNT FOR ANYTHING???????
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
> think the most outstanding leap toward improving our game is
> being made in Wilmington by a few talented if sometimes
> misunderstood individuals.
WORD TO YOUR MUTHA ON THAT......crazy how sooooooo much innovation can
come out of one smal nc hodunk town. wouldnt one think this stuff
should be originating in boulder.
on the other hand, this outstanding leap forward was achieved in a
VERY short span of time with VERY little(to no) resources......so one
could look at the whole scenerio as, "WHAT THE FUCK TOOK YOU SO LONG
TO FIGURE OUT A SYSTEM THAT IS STILL RATHER ARCHAIC IN NORMAL SPORTS
TERMS"........and why wasnt this "outstanding leap formward" initiated
by our governing body with its 500K surpluss, fancy computers and PAID
STAFF???????
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Disdain? I don't think so.
so can we count that as a vote for NO DISTAIN TOWARDS REFS IN
ULTI.......or just in all other sports?
Throw
the uoa).
Later,
Lance Marput
ulticritic
> I do not disdain refs in other sports. I wholeheartedly disdain the
> idea that ultimate should adopt refs simply because some people think
> that refs will lead to ultimate on TV or "in the mainstream" or some
> pie-in-the-sky B.S.
well what if the reasoning was just to make the game more fair, and
the added entertainment value was just an added bonus?........as i'm
sure thats the reason they are used in my kids little
leagues......cause there aint camer one in site at them games?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ultimate should only institute changes that improve the game for those
> who play it.
like the one and done sectionalists that bank role nationals for the
elite? couldnt agree more
----------------------------------------------------------------
At highly competative levels, this may mean some strong
> observer/referee thing.
why do just the high level teams get to benefit from this provilidge
though? i thought you were just preaching class/resourse equity?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> What is best for the players is the bottom line.
pffft.....and how is me as an eliminated sectionalist NOT being
afforded tiered comp facilitated by the upa for my "lower" level of
play being addressed when figuring this "bottom line"?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not potential
> sponsors, not hypothetical spectators.
how about just for the reason of conforming to sports norms? and dont
most sports actually put a good amout of concersn in both of those
things you speak of? Is it that you just dont want ultimate to become
a business? too late for that as the with the upa offering paid
positions to run their org, it alread IS a business......its just that
its a very poorly run business.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ulticritic doesn't just want
> refs, he wants ultimate to twist in the wind of corporate whim...
if that means trying to be like all other sports.......then no
argument. i think you need to read my ULTIMATE NEEDS TO SEEL OUT
thread in reference to this "corporate whim" you speak of though.
cause, remember, the country you live in IS essentially a corporation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe dancing girls? Maybe trampolines? Maybe a big hoop you have to
> throw the disc through? He wants to throw rule changes against the
> wall and see what sticks.
nope.....just refs. although i dont know anyone thats opposed to
scopin out a little eye candy during the downtime? are you REALLY
opposed to having hot, scantily dressed girls in your field of
vision? would you rather they be dancing boys......not that theres
anything wrong with that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If Ulticritic had his way, ultimate would end up like that stupid
> basketball trampoline game you see on ESPN at 1:30 am. On TV, yes, but
> totally gay.
no, it would end up like plain ole basketball. where do you get all
this trmapoline shit from?
ulticritic
wouldnt that be more like "once a farce BUT NOW A FORCE" (thanks to
the uoa......where the observers are more ref than observer)
or is it just that throw is jealous because he can never get anyone to
respond to his threads.
TJ
Someone posted a how-to earlier, but I can't seem to find it. Thanks.
ulticritic
> Could someone remind me how to block all posts from a single user?
why, does the act/power of ignoring elude you THAT MUCH? are ya
really that mentally weak?
TJ
about as much to any discussion as do the Nigerian millionaire schemes
in my junk mail. You might have great ideas for Ultimate, but none of
us will every know due to your inability to put together a coherent
thought. If I let my dog play on my computer for 5 minutes, it would
probably come up with something closer to English than anything found
in your 200 posts this week. So I'll keep looking for that user
filter.
ulticritic
> Probably for the same reason my inbox has a spam filter. You bring
> about as much to any discussion as do the Nigerian millionaire schemes
> in my junk mail.
wow, you guys must have a lot to talk about
----------------------------------------------
> You might have great ideas for Ultimate,
might?????????
-------------------------------------------
but none of
> us will every know due to your inability to put together a coherent
> thought.
so what does that say about you, having dialouge with someone that
cant think? and how can some one that cant think (the act of putting
together coherent thoughts) have such "grest ideas"? and surley it
was "coherant thoughts" that HAD TO HAVE conveyed said "great ideas"
to you in the first place.
so your gonna have to elaborate on that last statement.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I let my dog play on my computer for 5 minutes, it would
> probably come up with something closer to English than anything found
> in your 200 posts this week.
good one potsey
-------------------------------------------------
So I'll keep looking for that user
> filter.
any dumbass can do it in seconds from what the say......i dont know
whats taken you so long
TJ
On Feb 5, 12:41 pm, ulticritic <ulticri...@live.com> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 12:24 pm, TJ <dufour...@gmail.com> wrote:,
>
> > Probably for the same reason my inbox has a spam filter. You bring
> > about as much to any discussion as do the Nigerian millionaire schemes
> > in my junk mail.
>
> wow, you guys must have a lot to talk about
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> > You might have great ideas for Ultimate,
>
> might?????????
> -------------------------------------------
>
> but none of
>
> > us will every know due to your inability to put together a coherent
> > thought.
>
> so what does that say about you, having dialouge with someone that
> cant think? and how can some one that cant think (the act of putting
> together coherent thoughts) have such "grest ideas"? and surley it
> was "coherant thoughts" that HAD TO HAVE conveyed said "great ideas"
> to you in the first place.
>
> so your gonna have to elaborate on that last statement.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colin
> yard i can go watch a new and improved version that i find hard to bad
> mouth and simply aviod being subjested to the archaic CRAP that is
> traditional ultimate.
I personally think the observer program is one of the more progressive
segments of the UPA. Lots of people receptive to change, plus work
being done to bring about change. Getting input from Mike is an
example of just one of their smart moves. I anticipate improvements
coming soon.
However, this would be a great place for the UPA to throw some money
around. We know we need to train more observers. I'd throw some
money toward quickly certifying more observer trainers and then
putting on more observer clinics. Easier said than done, but not
impossible. Maybe this is another area for a proposal to the Board.
A one-time expenditure to jump-start the program. Once observers are
being paid and interested people can find an observer clinic that is
closer than 400 miles away, the clinic program can perhaps support
itself through modest fees.
The UOA has shown examples of a) players liking quality/efficient
observing and b) people being interested in becoming observers. The
UPA has its own certification process, but the big issue here is
making certification more accessible to people.
Knappy
ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same
time and still retain the ability to function."
Toad: that sounds more like first rate hypocrasy to me?
Me: First rate intelligence test: failed
RSD poster: "I didn't say it, it was another native
Minnesotan, F. Scott Fitzgerald."
Toad: so.....WHO THE FUCK IS HE.....and why is his opinion
on the matter any more valid that any old schmucks'?
Me: And, so the old schmuck beats on, boat against the
current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
Toad, I rarely read any of your posts any more, but the
excerpts above (being at the start of one of your rants)
caught my eye. Your ignorance & lack of education would be
embarrassing to most....instead, you wear it with pride.
Sad, really.
Suggestion for you: stop posting on RSD & enroll in some
continuing ed classes at the local community college. You
can even do that stuff online these days! A basic English
class will help you better communicate your mundane ideas,
as well as perhaps introduce you to the definition of the
word "hypocrisy" and maybe a decent read like Gatsby.
ulticritic
> On Feb 5, 9:41 am, ulticritic <ulticri...@live.com> wrote:
>
> > Of course now that the uoa is in my back
> > yard i can go watch a new and improved version that i find hard to bad
> > mouth and simply aviod being subjested to the archaic CRAP that is
> > traditional ultimate.
>
> I personally think the observer program is one of the more progressive
> segments of the UPA.
me too, and the fact that they are being left in the dust in that
field by an infant organization puts everything in perspective as to
how progressive THEY ARENT!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of people receptive to change, plus work
> being done to bring about change. Getting input from Mike is an
> example of just one of their smart moves.
seems to be THE smart move
-------------------------------------------------------
I anticipate improvements
> coming soon.
from who.....the upa or the uoa? or are you speaking in terms of the
upa CATCHING UP TO th uoa? maybe not in numbers but in modernizing
the process.
-----------------------------------------------------------
>
> However, this would be a great place for the UPA to throw some money
> around.
WORD.....GIVE GRANT MONEY TO THE UOA......fuck, they are essentially
doing the upas' job anyways
-------------------------------------------
> We know we need to train more observers.
then definatly DONT subscribe to the upas' WEAK ASS instructional
observer program when and if incorporating observers into rec league
play
---------------------------------------------------
I'd throw some
> money toward quickly certifying more observer trainers and then
> putting on more observer clinics. Easier said than done, but not
> impossible.
how about setting it up like other sports where you pay to get
certified so you can GET PAID to officviate. and its all self
subsidized. Of course that means standardizing officials fees along
with basic tourny fees.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Maybe this is another area for a proposal to the Board.
> A one-time expenditure to jump-start the program. Once observers are
> being paid and interested people can find an observer clinic that is
> closer than 400 miles away, the clinic program can perhaps support
> itself through modest fees.
which means more opportunities MUST exist for observers to gain
experience AND make an extra buck. so WHAT THE FUCK.....WHY NOT
STANDARDIZE THEM.
----------------------------------------------------
>
> The UOA has shown examples of a) players liking quality/efficient
> observing and b) people being interested in becoming observers.
c) the "outstnading leap" in advancing the system
d) charging teams and paying observers FROM THE GET GO
e) incorporating hand signals
f) using MUCH BETTER mechanics and posture
g) looking more official
i'm sure mike can think of others
------------------------------------------------------------------
The
> UPA has its own certification process, but the big issue here is
> making certification more accessible to people.
which wont happen unless its more aggressively and urgantly addressed.
ulticritic
> RSD poster: "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the
> ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same
> time and still retain the ability to function."
>
> Toad: that sounds more like first rate hypocrasy to me?
>
> Me: First rate intelligence test: failed
me: suck a dick knappy
--------------------------------------------------
>
> RSD poster: "I didn't say it, it was another native
> Minnesotan, F. Scott Fitzgerald."
>
> Toad: so.....WHO THE FUCK IS HE.....and why is his opinion
> on the matter any more valid that any old schmucks'?
>
> Me: And, so the old schmuck beats on, boat against the
> current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
is that gay talk?
----------------------------------------
>
> Toad, I rarely read any of your posts any more, but the
> excerpts above (being at the start of one of your rants)
> caught my eye.
dats your own godam bizness......what the fuck you want me to do about
that?
--------------------------------------
Your ignorance & lack of education would be
> embarrassing to most.
just as the sallyness and stupidity of your sport IS embarasing to
most(and soooooooooooooo often mocked by us "normal folk"). so whats
the big difference......you should be able to relate.
------------------------------------------------
...instead, you wear it with pride.
> Sad, really.
now dats MY godam bizness.......dont fucking worry about it. as bart
simpson once said..."eh, i'm comfortable with who i am"......and as i
say, eh, my moneys' green.
-------------------------------------------------
>
> Suggestion for you: stop posting on RSD & enroll in some
> continuing ed classes at the local community college.
uhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm NO!
-----------------------------------------------
You
> can even do that stuff online these days! A basic English
> class will help you better communicate your mundane ideas,
people are hearin me loud and clear.......its just that you dont like
WHAT youre hearing so you try to marginalize it because of the WAY i
say it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> as well as perhaps introduce you to the definition of the
> word "hypocrisy" and maybe a decent read like Gatsby.
more like gaysby.......and i'm fully aware of what a hypocrite is.
its that dick guy that says hes "for ref experimentation" yet rags the
idea and states "its been tried and nobody likes it". why would you
rag on and idea you are supportive of? isnt that a form of hypocracy?
ThaddeusGolaas
> RSD poster: "The test of a first-rate intelligence is
> the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the
> same time and still retain the ability to function."
>
> Toad: that sounds more like first rate hypocrasy to me?
>
> Me: First rate intelligence test: failed
>
> RSD poster: "I didn't say it, it was another native
> Minnesotan, F. Scott Fitzgerald."
>
> Toad: so.....WHO THE FUCK IS HE.....and why is his
> opinion on the matter any more valid that any old
> schmucks'?
>
> Me: And, so the old schmuck beats on, boat against the
> current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
I choose not to remain "RSD Poster." It's Tony, or if you
want to put a nickname there, Vector. I was once able to
sprint faster than most, but only in straight lines.
Knappy
good one, Toad.
I have no "distain" (sic) for refs in ulty or any sports. I
am all for training more observers, too. I have no issues
with dancing girls.
I just have a little bit of disdain for old schmucks who try
to bully others with countless posts about the same topic.
Also, your misuse of "hypocrasy" (sic) as well as not
knowing who Fitzgerald amused me.
--RSD poster
jdb...@mail.missouri.edu
> > If Ulticritic had his way, ultimate would end up like that stupid
> > basketball trampoline game you see on ESPN at 1:30 am. On TV, yes, but
> > totally gay.
>
> no, it would end up like plain ole basketball. where do you get all
> this trmapoline shit from?
Ulticritic's vision for the future of ultimate: Slamball!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL8T2IQHy8M
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slamball
ulticritic
> "me: suck a dick knappy"
>
> good one, Toad.
just trying to keep up with you
--------------------------------------------------
>
> I have no "distain" (sic) for refs in ulty or any sports.
well plenty of your jerly ultimate buddies do.......dont you have
somewhat of a problem with that.
--------------------------------------------------
I
> am all for training more observers, too. I have no issues
> with dancing girls.
again.....refer tp previous reply
----------------------------------------------------
>
> I just have a little bit of disdain for old schmucks who try
> to bully others with countless posts about the same topic.
ahhhhh whadayagonnadoaboutithough
---------------------------------------------------------------
> Also, your misuse of "hypocrasy" (sic) as well as not
> knowing who Fitzgerald amused me.
fuck some fitzgerald mf.......he dont mean shit to me. just another
dead muther fucker as far as i'm concerned
and your tolerance of ultimate being such a lame and mocked sport
amuses me.
as for my mis use of the wors hypocracy......what term would you have
me use in that instance? you know, ragging on somthing that you
support? two faced?
ulticritic
ive always been for a "full contact" version of ulti.......but you
know you guys are reaching by thinking just addin refs(and some good
ole sideline eye candy) to ultimate is no where near the variation
that slamball is to traditional b-ball. exagerate if you must
though.....if thats what you got to do
MrPinto
making Dubya seem eloquent... but it seems to me that you're
asking if folks ever rag on the refs in other sports?
Fans at actual games rag on the refs pretty much from start
to finish. Perhaps you are a little out of touch since
these days you don't go to games as much as watch people in
suits on TV talking *about* games. You can at least
remember back to the last time you were in a stadium though,
can't you? Sure, the NBA fans aren't going to support
self-officiation of the game that they're betting on, but
the question at hand was: "do folks rag on refs in other
sports?", and the answer would be.... yes.
As for everyone marveling at Toad not recognizing Gatsby,
WTF did you expect? Dude never would have found out what
happened to the Hoos in Hooville if they hadn't made a movie
out How the Grinch Stole Christmas.
~p
ulticritic
> I didn't try too hard to decipher your successful attempt at
> making Dubya seem eloquent... but it seems to me that you're
> asking if folks ever rag on the refs in other sports?
>
> Fans at actual games rag on the refs pretty much from start
> to finish.
kinda like how ultimate players heckly the player refs......likely for
the same basic reasons. only difference is most every ultimate player
at nationals(or whereever theres enough of a sideline TO heckle) isnt
a homer for either team......so they just heckle freely both
ways.......where as thats not the case at all with raggin on refs in
normal sports. and if you notice in one of my replies to one poster
flourishing the ultimate style of heckling i note basically what you
just said. try and keep up.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you are a little out of touch since
> these days you don't go to games as much as watch people in
> suits on TV talking *about* games.
nice reasoning. your basing a premis thats a veriable("perhaps") on a
conclusion("since i......") you have absolutly NO KNOWLEDGE of.
typical "reaching" sz argument
---------------------------------------------------------------
You can at least
> remember back to the last time you were in a stadium though,
> can't you?
yep......it was just the other day at a uncw basketball game.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sure, the NBA fans aren't going to support
> self-officiation of the game that they're betting on,
betting is beside the point......they/we wouldnt support it for ANY
reason.......other than it being unofficial pickup.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but
> the question at hand was: "do folks rag on refs in other
> sports?", and the answer would be.... yes.
actually that WASNT the question at hand. the question WAS......"do
people rag on the referee SYSTEM......in the same way i rag on the
sotg system. dont try and conflate the issue.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> As for everyone marveling at Toad not recognizing Gatsby,
> WTF did you expect?
word......you guys should know by now i wouldnt give a fuck about some
gay ass dead writer. as beavus onece said....."words sthhuck"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dude never would have found out what
> happened to the Hoos in Hooville if they hadn't made a movie
> out How the Grinch Stole Christmas.
ahhh your too clever for your own good there punto......aside from the
fact that YOU couldnt seem to READ what the fuck i wrote in my op
yourself (ya might want to go back and try that again).......sorry
there are no pictures to help ya thru it like these children books you
seem enamored with.
ulticritic
> I do not disdain refs in other sports. I wholeheartedly disdain the
> idea that ultimate should adopt refs
now if this isnt some kind a dual personality, i dont know what is.
ulticritic
clarification please
huckItorFUckit
1) I love how despite everyone's constant hatred and complaining about
Toad's posts, no one can seem to resist answering (including me, minus
the fact I don't complain).
2) I love how despite everyone's constant hatred and complaining about
Toad's posts, you all respond clearly and relevantly (proving that you
understand perfectly well what he is saying and the message he is
trying to get across).
Toad,
spelling errors and immaturity is common in your posts. I understand
that, you're passionate about what you're trying to say and a lot of
times that comes out (typing fast, angrily, etc) I think a lot of the
ridiculous shit you say is actually hilarious, but maybe you'd be
better leaving it out. The truth is, despite how clear you make it
that you hate where ultimate is, part of you (or most of you) loves
it. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting on RSD everyday and pushing
for change. You love it more than most of these people who are trying
to talk down to you. So why don't you make an effort to clean the
posts up, take some more time, and leave the funny shit at home? Since
its clear you actually want change to happen..maybe its time to go
about making change happen in the best way possible, and that's being
clear, concise, and *dare I say it?!?!* reasonable? You're in a
vicious cycle with yourself, screaming but not being heard, and there
is a simple solution. You just need to change the way you go about it.
I know you'll most likely answer this by saying "I won't change me,"
but you're not. You can just change the way you express who "you" is.
I'm sure plenty of people have made this plea with you..and I'm sure
like all of theirs it will be ignored, but maybe not. I like enough
about your message that it's worth asking. You could be a leader of
the movement along with guys like Mike G who are spinning the wheels
on the UOA already.
Sincerely,
A supporter
Not only that, but despite everyone's consistent attempts to call Toad
stupid, I think its pretty clear he is not.
Someone could have the literacy of a 4 year old and not be stupid (not
saying Toad's literacy is that of a 4 year old, but you get the
point). His ideas are actually really interesting, and innovative.
For instance - Asking people to consider the difference pulling refs
would have from professional sports? Think about that. Think about how
much that would effect the sport and the fan base. Now consider the
other side of that - Ultimate's side, the effect that implementing
refs could have. The truth is, its going to happen. Whether it be now
or in hundreds of years, the sport will die without it. Now don't try
and attack me on my roots to ultimate, I've been around the sport
since I was born. But the truth is people consistently violate our
"golden rule" SOTG..and with the popularity growth that is happening
now more and more people will be coming to our fields as newcomers,
and when they get there, most of them will undoubtedly have little or
no faith to SOTG.
I hate to feed the fire, but Toad, although I'm sure you don't need
the reassurance, people do agree with what you're saying. I know
plenty that do. I know plenty who say that Wilmington 8's is the best
tournament they've ever been to, and thats not cause of the
competition. Thats because observers are better than players, and
referees are better than observers. Time will only tell. Keep on
truckin (but maybe a style tweak could help your cause).
ulticritic
rather that pick this post apart line by line in my normal fashion, i
just got one thing to say.......
IN YOUR FACE SPIRIT ZEALOTS!!!!!!!!
ulticritic
love to hear some spirit replies to huckitorfuckits post.......AND
know who huckitorfuckit is???? dont be shamed to reveal yourself.
its ALLLLLL part of the healing process. Dont be a "closet critic
fan".
huckItorFUckit
My name is Isaac Saul, and I ::sniffle::....I ::wipes tear::...I
support referees in Ultimate.
ulticritic
STILL WAITING FOR A SPIRIT ZEALOT TO RESPOND TO THIS POST. PREFERABLY
ONE THAT HAS VOCALIZED THEIR DISDAIN TOWARDS ME........AND DISMISSES
ANYTHING I WRITE DUE TO IT BEING UNCOMPREHENDABLE.
> truckin (but maybe a style tweak could help your cause)..
richarda...@gmail.com
I guess I qualify as a spirit zealot even though I've always supported
experimenting with refs, so here goes...
> 1) I love how despite everyone's constant hatred and complaining about
> Toad's posts, no one can seem to resist answering (including me, minus
> the fact I don't complain).
People can't resist answering because they're irresistible topics for
Toad as well as everyone else. We complain because our carefully
written responses get 12 replies in a row calling us 'hipocrates' and
or having valid points answered with an unsupported "BZZZT WRONG".
> For instance - Asking people to consider the difference pulling refs
> would have from professional sports? Think about that. Think about how
> much that would effect the sport and the fan base. Now consider the
> other side of that - Ultimate's side, the effect that implementing
> refs could have. The truth is, its going to happen. Whether it be now
> or in hundreds of years, the sport will die without it. Now don't try
> and attack me on my roots to ultimate, I've been around the sport
> since I was born. But the truth is people consistently violate our
> "golden rule" SOTG..and with the popularity growth that is happening
> now more and more people will be coming to our fields as newcomers,
> and when they get there, most of them will undoubtedly have little or
> no faith to SOTG.
Where the idea of pulling refs from other sports does sound crazy,
Toad's implied corollary is also crazy. If we add refs to ultimate,
no one is going to look up and notice. It's possible that it will
help the sport (in the very long run) get NCAA or Olympic status.
What the sport lacks now is any public recognition, which is more a
marketing and cultural issue than a rule enforcement issue.
I do agree that the sport will have refs at some point at some level,
but I think that's going to happen with a non-UPA organization doing
it and getting momentum within the community rather than the UPA
handing it down. The free market works.
> I hate to feed the fire, but Toad, although I'm sure you don't need
> the reassurance, people do agree with what you're saying. I know
> plenty that do. I know plenty who say that Wilmington 8's is the best
> tournament they've ever been to, and thats not cause of the
> competition. Thats because observers are better than players, and
> referees are better than observers. Time will only tell. Keep on
> truckin (but maybe a style tweak could help your cause).
I do agree with most of Toad's ideas toward the goal of making the
sport more marketable, but I disagree with a lot of his proposed
methods and priorities. Also, I agree that his style is self-
defeating and alienating to even his closest followers.
ulticritic
rather than me reply to this i'm sure we'de all rather hear
huckitorfuckit reply.......so the floor it yours isaac
Peter Mc
nice post.
Later,
Peter Mc
MDSC
huckItorFUckit
>
> I guess I qualify as a spirit zealot even though I've always supported
> experimenting with refs, so here goes...
>
> > 1) I love how despite everyone's constant hatred and complaining about
> > Toad's posts, no one can seem to resist answering (including me, minus
> > the fact I don't complain).
>
> People can't resist answering because they're irresistible topics for
> Toad as well as everyone else. We complain because our carefully
> written responses get 12 replies in a row calling us 'hipocrates' and
> or having valid points answered with an unsupported "BZZZT WRONG".
Well, I can understand the distaste with that. I've seen the
aforementioned "BZZT WRONG" post before, but I'd hardly say its
'unsupported.' Most of the time it is followed up with a curseword
filled argument which gets ignored because people choose to not look
through his style. Which, was kind of the point of my post before,
that he has good points and they are ignored because of how he goes
about delivering them. As far as people not being able to resist,
thats fine - and speak for yourself, I understand that. But it is
probably not you who I'm referring to when I say that, more like the
people who come on and star their 2 page post with "Toad your post
sucks and has no validity your old get off your computer etc...." and
then dive into their argument which is a clear rebuttal to his.
> > For instance - Asking people to consider the difference pulling refs
> > would have from professional sports? Think about that. Think about how
> > much that would effect the sport and the fan base. Now consider the
> > other side of that - Ultimate's side, the effect that implementing
> > refs could have. The truth is, its going to happen. Whether it be now
> > or in hundreds of years, the sport will die without it. Now don't try
> > and attack me on my roots to ultimate, I've been around the sport
> > since I was born. But the truth is people consistently violate our
> > "golden rule" SOTG..and with the popularity growth that is happening
> > now more and more people will be coming to our fields as newcomers,
> > and when they get there, most of them will undoubtedly have little or
> > no faith to SOTG.
>
> Where the idea of pulling refs from other sports does sound crazy,
> Toad's implied corollary is also crazy. If we add refs to ultimate,
> no one is going to look up and notice. It's possible that it will
> help the sport (in the very long run) get NCAA or Olympic status.
> What the sport lacks now is any public recognition, which is more a
> marketing and cultural issue than a rule enforcement issue.
I see what your saying, but forget the effect adding refs would have
on the market, the initial effect on us would be the same. If we want
the best athletes, best competitors, and the most satisfied fans, refs
are certainly a must. And I agree with you, it is possible (and
likely) that it would help us get NCAA or Olympic recognition. It
certainly wouldn't hurt that goal, and noREFS is getting us noWHERE
(bumper sticker, anyone?), so why not?
> I do agree that the sport will have refs at some point at some level,
> but I think that's going to happen with a non-UPA organization doing
> it and getting momentum within the community rather than the UPA
> handing it down. The free market works.
possibly, although the UPA is probably our only chance at funding a
refereed league. Most people in the ultimate community do not have the
resources to pull that together, although Mike G is doing a great job.
> > I hate to feed the fire, but Toad, although I'm sure you don't need
> > the reassurance, people do agree with what you're saying. I know
> > plenty that do. I know plenty who say that Wilmington 8's is the best
> > tournament they've ever been to, and thats not cause of the
> > competition. Thats because observers are better than players, and
> > referees are better than observers. Time will only tell. Keep on
> > truckin (but maybe a style tweak could help your cause).
>
> I do agree with most of Toad's ideas toward the goal of making the
> sport more marketable, but I disagree with a lot of his proposed
> methods and priorities. Also, I agree that his style is self-
> defeating and alienating to even his closest followers.
Not much to argue here.
richarda...@gmail.com
> I see what your saying, but forget the effect adding refs would have
> on the market, the initial effect on us would be the same. If we want
> the best athletes, best competitors, and the most satisfied fans, refs
> are certainly a must. And I agree with you, it is possible (and
> likely) that it would help us get NCAA or Olympic recognition. It
> certainly wouldn't hurt that goal, and noREFS is getting us noWHERE
> (bumper sticker, anyone?), so why not?
I generally agree, but the sport has been growing enormously without
refs as well as without a big marketing effort. Putting refs in at
this point would alienate a lot of players and is unlikely to be the
magic bullet to make the sport suddenly popular, respected, and
successful. Since a top-down implementation of referees or a
professional marketing effort would be enormously costly in money and
manpower, I see marketing as a more attractive option.
> > I do agree that the sport will have refs at some point at some level,
> > but I think that's going to happen with a non-UPA organization doing
> > it and getting momentum within the community rather than the UPA
> > handing it down. The free market works.
>
> possibly, although the UPA is probably our only chance at funding a
> refereed league. Most people in the ultimate community do not have the
> resources to pull that together, although Mike G is doing a great job.
The UPA has the resources, but not the membership interest or
pressure. If the UOA builds enough momentum and pressures the UPA,
they'll pay attention, but at this point there's no reason for the UPA
to make this a top priority based on speculation.
josh murphy
thereof). Hence, I'm not sure how to completely understand his views,
but I can chime in that I concur with the opinion that having self-
officiation will limit the ways that the sport can grow. It will not
involve spectators as completely as it could otherwise, nor will it
(for that reason, not enough fan support) reach a professional &
ubiquitous level that so many other sports can/do.
However, it can reach casual players without 3rd party arbitration.
It can be popular in the way it currently is, growing from there
slightly & it can certainly increase in popularity with kids & youth
as an activity (but not as a career aspiration) & hobby, a social &
athletic outlet.
So, my personal preference is to support both pathways of growth, both
the self-officiated (even in recreational leagues or competitive
tournaments as long as interest remains) as well as the objectively
officiated (refs) to grow the sport as a spectator sport & outlet for
high-level athletic competition.
In essence, like my politics, my attitude towards officiation of
ultimate is somewhere in the middle. At this point, I see self-
officiated as established & growing while the objective arbitration
needs a LOT of work!
ulticritic
> I'm one that can't read Todd's replies, due to style (& lack
> thereof). Hence, I'm not sure how to completely understand his views,
> but I can chime in that I concur with the opinion that having self-
> officiation will limit the ways that the sport can grow. It will not
> involve spectators as completely as it could otherwise, nor will it
> (for that reason, not enough fan support) reach a professional &
> ubiquitous level that so many other sports can/do.
are you saying you dont fully understand that THIS is my basic stance
on the issue?
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> However, it can reach casual players without 3rd party arbitration.
> It can be popular in the way it currently is, growing from there
> slightly & it can certainly increase in popularity with kids & youth
> as an activity (but not as a career aspiration) & hobby, a social &
> athletic outlet.
what about the notion of "gettin out of it what you put in"?
----------------------------------------------------------
>
> So, my personal preference is to support both pathways of growth, both
> the self-officiated (even in recreational leagues or competitive
> tournaments as long as interest remains) as well as the objectively
> officiated (refs) to grow the sport as a spectator sport & outlet for
> high-level athletic competition.
too bad only one of those "options" exists........and too bad it's the
upa administrations mission to make sure the other one never comes to
be.
---------------------------------------------------------
>
> In essence, like my politics, my attitude towards officiation of
> ultimate is somewhere in the middle. At this point, I see self-
> officiated as established & growing while the objective arbitration
> needs a LOT of work!
this is why ya need to start with the basics.......of which the first
step would be to change the basic philosophy of the current upa
administration to include refed ultimate as a valid form of the sport.
huckItorFUckit
Standing ovation my friend.
josh murphy
I was actually able to read this reply, Todd, and it sounds like you &
I agree on quite a bit. Very nice reply, overall. I sure do hope
that the UPA (an organization that includes thousands of players,
coaches & ultimate enthusiasts, not just a select few at the top)
doesn't consider its mission to be to keep the 3rd party arbitration
from happening. Of course, I wouldn't be shocked to hear that it's
still not the majority's preference to pursue such as wholeheartedly
as you & I might be ready to. But I still believe that given the
clear will of the membership expressed(one of these days), that the
UPA can (& hopefully will) one day throw greater encouragement towards
increasing objectively officiated ultimate. We just gotta keep talking
about it, reasonably & objectively, listening & considering other
ideas, refining our own & understanding the best ways to make positive
change occur. At least, that's MY plan.
Bobus
That's certainly not Toad's plan. And he'll end up doing more damage
to your pro-ref cause than the staunchest spirit zealots out there -
if they even exist.
The UPA's mission is to promote and spread the game to every far
corner of the country. If you believe the statistics, they are doing
an outstanding job of that. They have found a formula that works, so
why should they change it? As a non-elite player, I love the unique
culture of our sport and I believe SOTG has a lot to do with it. I
know many, many players who feel the same way.
So Toad is screaming his agenda at the UPA, which has no incentive to
adopt his ideas. And he's screaming at the players, who largely don't
care. He might as well be banging his head against a wall, at least
that might improve the coherence of his posts.
The referees, dancing girls and TV spots, if it ever happens, will
likely come from another organization (think NBA vs USA Basketball).
If it succeeds, they won't have Toad to thank, but the efforts of the
UPA for creating and growing their fan base. The so-called spirit
zealots will happily tune in to watch the games, right after their un-
refereed league games finish. Self-officiated and officiated versions
of the sport will peacefully co-exist. And Toad's head will finally
explode.
ulticritic
>
> I was actually able to read this reply, Todd, and it sounds like you &
> I agree on quite a bit. Very nice reply, overall.
well, it wasnt all that different from any of my other
posts.......unless i got lucky and didnt spell anything(much) wrong
-----------------------------------------------------------
I sure do hope
> that the UPA (an organization that includes thousands of players,
> coaches & ultimate enthusiasts, not just a select few at the top)
> doesn't consider its mission to be to keep the 3rd party arbitration
> from happening.
hope all you want.....THATS a big part of their mission.....look it up
------------------------------------------------
Of course, I wouldn't be shocked to hear that it's
> still not the majority's preference to pursue such as wholeheartedly
> as you & I might be ready to.
i would. of course, no need to be shocked, lets simply ask the
membership. So......what would be the best most effective meathod of
gathering such info. I say by canvasing ALL sectional events with a
small staff that acn quickly poll all members with a short 3 minute
survey. isnt EVERYBODY at sectionals. no better place to corner the
membership.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I still believe that given the
> clear will of the membership expressed(one of these days),
not likely......as the upa has lulled them/us/YOU into a serious state
of apathy.......so basically, they have us right where they want us to
be able to keep the "spirit" campaign. And have ya looked at how the
administration actually DEFINES the sport. "NO REFS" is basically in
the definition.
----------------------------------------------------------
that the
> UPA can (& hopefully will) one day throw greater encouragement towards
> increasing objectively officiated ultimate.
think again. they are more likely to fight it tooth and nail. Of
course, maybe it would be prudent to simply ASK EM?!?!?
---------------------------------------------------------------
We just gotta keep talking
> about it, reasonably & objectively, listening & considering other
> ideas, refining our own & understanding the best ways to make positive
> change occur. At least, that's MY plan.
how about throwing some experimentation into the mix......ya know, so
we can see and THEN make and informed and objective decision as to
what works best. Last poll showed that 48% of the membership (or at
least 48% of the 6% that responded to that poll) were "ok with
experimentation". isnt that enough for the upa to throw some
attention at it?
ulticritic
> > At least, that's MY plan.
>
> That's certainly not Toad's plan.
your right. my plan would envolve a MUCH MORE aggressive and urgant
approcach to making said transition or being actively INclusive to
a refereed version(s). Kinda like the approach the uoa is
taking.....in comparison to the upas' anyway. Of course when the
mission over the last 40 year period has been primarily to cling
toTHAT ONE sotg mantra option, which by nature implyes an anti ref
sentiment, your gonna have quite the clash. And how can anything
really all that productive, progressive or evolutionary is gonna
happen when the focus is on that clash.
----------------------------------------------------------------
And he'll end up doing more damage
> to your pro-ref cause than the staunchest spirit zealots out there -
> if they even exist.
this is the parinoia talking......as you will plainly see as you read
this post that it is pure SZ propaganda. The spirit zealots
DEFINITELY dont want the progressives to unite.....and ESPECIALLY in
ANY kind of alighnment with me.
---------------------------------------------------
>
> The UPA's mission is to promote and spread the game to every far
> corner of the country. If you believe the statistics, they are doing
> an outstanding job of that.
but dont the upas own stats show that the 6% of the membership that
responds to them isnt all that satisfied with how the admin conducts
itself. SHIT, i got a questionare that was answered by now BoD member
GWEN AMBLER that said she, as a then member, felt "UNSUPPORTIVE" that
the upa admin did an adequate job with TRANSPARANCY, COMMUNICATION and
ACCOUNTABILITY.
YOU just buy into the idea that they are doing "outstanding jobs" of
this, that and the other because they push the lame ass sotg agenda
you support. who do you think youre trying to kid here?
--------------------------------------------------------------
They have found a formula that works, so
> why should they change it?
cause theres a better one that conforms more to the sports norms of
our countries culture.......that could be used in addition to the
present one.. and its proven to be very very successful. also it
could open other doors for the sport (like varsity hs status as per
resident youth expert tinna booth).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a non-elite player, I love the unique
> culture of our sport and I believe SOTG has a lot to do with it. I
> know many, many players who feel the same way.
and no one will be stoppin you from playing in your "spirity"
way.......even with the child like temper tantrums arguments that
offen occur.
-------------------------------------------------------------
>
> So Toad is screaming his agenda at the UPA, which has no incentive to
> adopt his ideas.
thats not altogether true.....cause history shows that many of the
things i suggest DO end up getting adopted.
-------------------------------------------------------
And he's screaming at the players, who largely don't
> care.
these dudes seem to
-------------------------------------
He might as well be banging his head against a wall, at least
> that might improve the coherence of his posts.
is that that parinoia talkin again
---------------------------------------------
>
> The referees, dancing girls and TV spots, if it ever happens, will
> likely come from another organization (think NBA vs USA Basketball).
> If it succeeds, they won't have Toad to thank, but the efforts of the
> UPA for creating and growing their fan base.
so if the upa is gonna GET all the credit, why shouldnt they initiate
the organization? ESPECIALLY when it would likely REAP the same
financial benefits that the NBA is?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The so-called spirit
> zealots will happily tune in to watch the games, right after their un-
> refereed league games finish.
and the progressives will do the same right after their REFEREED
league games finish.
------------------------------------------------------------
Self-officiated and officiated versions
> of the sport will peacefully co-exist. And Toad's head will finally
> explode.
i'm not so sure some of your typical spirit zealots see it that way.
I think that THEY really believe that ultimate will change the
landscape of the sports industry and culture.....and they invision ALL
OTHER SPORTS adopting the silly and arcaic sotg pickup version of
sports in a formalized format. WHAT KOOKS. i mean, who would EVER
play ANY sport where they attempted to do that.
richarda...@gmail.com
> this is the parinoia talking......as you will plainly see as you read
> this post that it is pure SZ propaganda. The spirit zealots
> DEFINITELY dont want the progressives to unite.....and ESPECIALLY in
> ANY kind of alighnment with me.
It's responses like this that make the discussion feel like it's not
worth having. It's responses like this that make people who largely
agree with you look like we're fighting across a wide ideological
chasm. It's responses like this that explain why you only have one
outspoken supporter, and that's only in the last few days.
ulticritic
<richardaustinw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 9:06 am, ulticritic <ulticri...@live.com> wrote:.
>
> > this is the parinoia talking......as you will plainly see as you read
> > this post that it is pure SZ propaganda. The spirit zealots
> > DEFINITELY dont want the progressives to unite.....and ESPECIALLY in
> > ANY kind of alighnment with me.
>
> It's responses like this that make the discussion feel like it's not
> worth having.
what about the response that this response was to? and if thats the
case then why even attempt to continue it? dont start nuthin and
there wont be nuthin
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's responses like this that make people who largely
> agree with you look like we're fighting across a wide ideological
> chasm.
thats because we are. not bringing light to that "deep yawning casm"
is just another way of never having to confront it......and ultimately
do somthing about it
---------------------------------------------------------
It's responses like this that explain why you only have one
> outspoken supporter, and that's only in the last few days.
but if you read carfully that one outspoken supporter says "people
agree with what youre saying. i know plenty that do." so......they
dont need to be outspoken to be supporters.......which is why "they"
are so often refered to as "the silent majority".
3Jane.
> ultimate are against referees in general for all sports. I
> do think referees are going to be a part of ultimate at some
> point, I know observers make the game more fun to play. I
> think the most outstanding leap toward improving our game is
> being made in Wilmington by a few talented if sometimes
> misunderstood individuals.
As someone who has argued plenty with one of them in the past, I
completely agree. Those guys are making a difference. I told MG I'll
volunteer to do anything but observe at any tournament he organizes
within shouting distance of DC. I'd be glad to line the fields for
those guys.
ulticritic
>
> As someone who has argued plenty with one of them in the past, I
> completely agree.
but shouldnt "the most outstanding LEAPS forward" in this, and many
other, "IMPROVEMENTS TO OUR GAME" be getting initiated and overseen by
the upa administration. I mean, whats the since in them spending all
our money on those stupid polls unless they actually respond and react
to the info they get.
Personally, as far as this whole "arbitration" issue goes, me thinks
that the upa cant really make any efforts to be at all progressive
when such a HUGE part of their trip is maintaining the preservation of
sotg. Its just too bad they let their personal preferences get in the
way of providing a more progressive and modernized
"OPTION"........like exactly what the uoa is doing.......acting
aggressively and urgantly to the OBVIOUS changing trends. SHIT, they
are not only responding to the trends, THEYRE SETTIN EM.
AND NOTE.....while it is more than evident that mike g himself
believes that the refined meathod that the uoa is now using is
sufficent, and mike himself seems to be personally opposed to full on
refs, he at least has the open mindedness to be tolerant OF such a
reffed system to the tune that he has advertised that the mission of
the uoa is to provide ANY AND ALL varieties of ultimate arbitration.
VERY SMART MOVE ON THE UOAS PART. where as the upa is hog tieing
therir own selfs by taking a very limmiting, lackidazical and
PUSSIFIED approach.
>Those guys are making a difference.
in comparison to who??? the upa? why do we give all our money to the
upa and NOT expect them to be the difference makers though? has the
upa really lowered our expectations of them THAT MUCH? personally i
dont expect them to do jack shit......other than fuck shit up/slow
shit down
-----------------------------------------------------------
I told MG I'll
> volunteer to do anything but observe at any tournament he organizes
> within shouting distance of DC. I'd be glad to line the fields for
> those guys.
would hosting an event be included in "anything"?
Paul Utesch
What is a "distain?"
ulticritic
>
> - Show quoted text -
a mispelt word