Spirit Scores
AKB
divisions on the Score Reporter. It makes me wonder what factors into
captains ratings. My team came in last by a fair margin, but I do not
think that we were especially unspirited. What are the things that
captains take into account for spirit? My guess is that the biggest
factor is the arguing of calls. Other things I heard mentioned on the
sidelines, during one game in particular, were aggressive marks and
fast stall counts. None of these things I think are particularly
unspirited because none of them are intentional breaking of rules to
gain an advantage. Also, I was called unspirited for telling someone
that she made a bad call (a pick during a poach, but she was probably
right that I could have handled it better).
>From the spirit page on the upa website: (http://upa.org/spirit)
"Such actions as taunting opposing players, dangerous aggression,
belligerent intimidation, intentional infractions, or other 'win-at-
all-costs' behavior are contrary to the Spirit of the Game and must be
avoided by all players."
These are things that are listed as unspirited, none of which we do.
I think that our competitiveness is often seen as unspirited. We play
hard, we make close calls, we argue our point of view, but we're not
unspirited, and in our observed games, the observers agreed much more
than not.
What are the big factors in spirit or lack of spirit to you?
The spirit winner in each division (other than masters) was the 16th
seed. Coincidence?
It's also interesting that in most cases the teams that have the worst
spirit are the teams that made it to quarters or further.
7 of 8 in mixed quarters in bottom 8 for spirt
6 of 8 in open quarters in bottom 8 for spirit
4 of 8 in women's quarters in bottom 10 for spirit ( 4 way tie for
7th)
AKB
Vancer
intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage?
AKB
> How is intentionally setting up in an illegal marking position NOT
> intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage?
An aggressive marks means keeping our bodies between our mark and
where we do not want them to throw the disc. When the thrower tris to
pivot to the break side is when the foul happens most often, but there
is no illegal marking position. And I wouldn't call that bad spirit,
we're just too slow to give the additional space. There were many
aggressive marks from other teams as well and I wouldn't count that as
unspirited, it's part of the game.
faddy
it would be poor team spirit to just let the breakmark throw go off
without contesting it, which often reults in contact/foul.
is it also poor spirit for the habitual traveler to continue to do so?
Vancer
and
where we do not want them to throw the disc. When the thrower tris to
pivot to the break side is when the foul happens most often, but there
is no illegal marking position. And I wouldn't call that bad spirit,
we're just too slow to give the additional space. There were many
aggressive marks from other teams as well and I wouldn't count that as
unspirited, it's part of the game."
<Vancer> That is your understanding of the aggressive
marks. It seems that the others on the sideline didn't have the same
view. I wasn't there, so I don't know. I have, however, had enough
chest to shoulder marks to know that many many people have "aggressive
marks" that intentionally set up in illegal areas, and so I asked the
question.
<faddy> "it would be poor team spirit to just let the breakmark throw
go off
without contesting it, which often reults in contact/foul."
<Vancer> Rules "spirit" has to come before team spirit to
make sure the proper respect is paid to opponents and the rules. I
really don't want to frame it as spirit, because I think the term is
misused frequently. I enjoy aggressive, even physical play when it is
out on the field and people are jostling for position. When you have
a stationary thrower it is a LOT different. Reaching and moving to
stop the break and being too slow and accidentally clipping a hand is
one thing, putting your body in an illegal position to disallow the
pivot is quite another.
<faddy> "is it also poor spirit for the habitual traveler to continue
to do so?"
<Vancer> Absolutely.
Abbie
Spirit Ranking Guidelines
At the board meeting in January, 2007, the board was tasked with
creating spirit ranking guidelines to use at specific UPA events. The
UPA Conduct Committee (Ricky Eikstadt, Jeff Dunbar, and Patrick
Gilman) along with Peri Kurshan, Will Deaver, Kyle Weisbrod, and Eric
Zaslow, developed the following rating system to assist in ranking the
spirit of an opposing team. The rankings are ordered from 5
(indicating the highest level of spirit) thru 1 (the lowest level of
spirit)
5 - Highest level of respect shown throughout game towards opponents,
officials, and spectators. For the level of play, showed excellent
knowledge of the rules and abided by them throughout the game. Any
conflicts were resolved amicably and without incident. Opposing team's
conduct added to our enjoyment of the game. The opposing team
unfailingly played fairly and with an excellent attitude.
4 - Respect shown throughout the game towards opponents, officials,
and spectators. For the level of play, showed above average knowledge
of the rules and abided by them throughout the game. Any conflicts
were resolved favorably and without incident. Opposing team's conduct
did not detract from our enjoyment of the game. The opposing team
played fairly and with a good attitude.
3 - Generally exhibited respect towards opponents, officials, and
spectators. For the level of play, showed adequate knowledge of the
rules and abided by them during the game. Any conflicts were resolved
plainly and without incident. Opposing team's conduct generally did
not detract from our enjoyment of the game. The opposing team
generally played fairly and with a decent attitude.
2 - Exhibited a lack of respect towards opponents, officials, and/or
spectators. For the level of play, showed a lack of knowledge of or
disregard for the rules at points during the game. Any conflicts were
resolved heatedly or led to contentious incidents. Opposing team's
conduct detracted somewhat from our enjoyment of the game. The
opposing team played unfairly and/or with a poor attitude.
1 - Exhibited a major lack of respect towards opponents, officials,
and/or spectators. For the level of play, exhibited no knowledge of
the rules or blatantly disregarded them during the game. Conflicts
were resolved acrimoniously or led directly to contentious incidents.
Opposing team's conduct made the game basically unenjoyable. The
opposing team played unfairly and their attitude was abysmal.
ulticritic
and this is why spirit CANT be the overiding theme behind enforcing
the rules thru anything other than impartial third party abitration
and judgement. Being labled as poor spirited is just not enough of a
deterant (or consequence) to play "by the rules". But i would say
that counting fast (do any teams ever practice a proper
cadence......i'd bet the farm the answer is NO) and illegial marks are
a consious effort not to put forth the proper effort to abide by the
standards that the rules say you should follow on your honor to begin
with. And this is why sotg is such an illusion when flourishing it as
a morally and accuratley superior method of rule
facilitation.......there is just so much room (grey area)for
interpeting what "playing with spirit" is and there is no tangible
deterant to bending that interpretation to suit ones partialy
motivated desires.
I would assume that if an impartial party penalized you for said fast
counts, aggressive maks or obnoxious sideline behavior you would have
complied with the rules with a lot more urgancy..........which would
enevitably result in a more level playing field.
spa...@yahoo.com
different levels within those divisions.
With all the ranting about how aggregious Matty's spike was, it didn't
keep Bravo from a 2nd place spirit score.
JB
tom hunt
score after all the commotion about their spirit coming in. Congrats
to them. Even if teams that finish lower tend to get higher spirit
scores for whatever reasons, it says something when your score is that
high. Also, while the point about most of the top spirit scores going
to non-QFinalists might be right, it doesn't mean you can't do both.
In all divisions (Bravo, Riot, Surly, and Brass-tied for third) a
finalist or semi-finalist did very well in spirit.
tom hunt
to hold any water at all. 3 of the 4 semi-finalists are in the top 5
in spirit, and you could also phrase it that 5 of the 8 quarter-
finalists finished seventh or better in spirit. As you put it, 4 of
the 10 bottom spirit rankings in womens are in the quarterfinals, but
that means 6 of the 10 are non-quarterfinalists. Seems to me that the
better teams were getting better spirit rankings.
ulticritic
> I guess spirit is percieved differently in different divisions, and at
> different levels within those divisions.
which is good, bad, what. shouldnt spirit be consistant accross the
board no matter what level or division. and dosent that inconsistancy
mean that there is a need for standardization???
> With all the ranting about how aggregious Matty's spike was, it didn't
> keep Bravo from a 2nd place spirit score.
but maybe it did keep him from gettin ejected as me maybe should
have.......yet another inconsistancy.
btw.....spirit scores are the stupidist fucking thing that has ever
entered into the realm of sports and competition. Let refs judge
spirit thru their whistles.
>
> JB
Ryan Kircher
>
> - Show quoted text -
In my opinion, Spirit scores are a complete joke.
I think an most important factor in spirit scores is whether your team
wins or loses.
It's a lot easier to brush off a few bad calls, arguements and such if
you are enjoying your recent victory.
It's also really easy to dwell and hold on to a couple of questionable
situations if you lose a close game.
Of course there are teams that are just plain nice and cool like
Bashing Pinatas.
There are also teams that get 'pity' spirit points as well. You feel
bad after handing a team their ass so you give them a 5.
There are also teams that are beating so badly, that they let things
slide, and don't see the need to argue questionable calls any more,
and thus get high scores-Bravo.
The thing that REALLY pisses me off about spirit scores is the
inflation of the scores. The mean score for each division is 4 or
higher. On a scale of 1-5. Thats ridiculous. Maybe there's
something I don't know here, but shouldn't teams be getting 3's if
they had average spirit? No team had a compiled score of Less than
3. Does that mean that EVERY team at nationals had better than
average spirit? I'd hate to see all of those non-qualifying dick
teams...
If a team has bad spirit, or pisses you off, give them a 1 or 2, not a
3.
Jimmy...@gmail.com
The teams at nationals don't show a lack of respect towards each
other. They have an adequate knowledge of the rules. They resolve
their conflicts without incidents and their opponents were able to
enjoy the game.
I would hope that all teams could get a 3 or higher at any tournament.
>>>
2 - Exhibited a lack of respect towards opponents, officials, and/or
spectators. For the level of play, showed a lack of knowledge of or
disregard for the rules at points during the game. Any conflicts were
resolved heatedly or led to contentious incidents. Opposing team's
conduct detracted somewhat from our enjoyment of the game. The
opposing team played unfairly and/or with a poor attitude.
1 - Exhibited a major lack of respect towards opponents, officials,
and/or spectators. For the level of play, exhibited no knowledge of
the rules or blatantly disregarded them during the game. Conflicts
were resolved acrimoniously or led directly to contentious incidents.
Opposing team's conduct made the game basically unenjoyable. The
opposing team played unfairly and their attitude was abysmal.
Jimmy
VBB #30
ulticritic
> To get a 3 or higher means:
> The teams at nationals don't show a lack of respect towards each
> other. They have an adequate knowledge of the rules. They resolve
> their conflicts without incidents and their opponents were able to
> enjoy the game.
>
> I would hope that all teams could get a 3 or higher at any tournament.
i would hope that all teams would say fuck it and not participate in
such meaningless and trivial gay ass quire boy contests.
thom...@stanford.edu
Actually, the mean Womens score was a 3.8. Mid-Atlantic Womens teams
averaged the lowest, at 3.3333.
ultimat...@gmail.com
SPIRIT OF THE GAME - so those individual game ratings should be
available to UPA members, right?
Mike Gerics
> At the board meeting in January, 2007, the board was tasked with
> creating spirit ranking guidelines to use at specific UPA events.
---that's dumb.
what a waste of effort
doug...@hotmail.com
> quire boy
A male origami youth constructed from 1/20th of a ream of paper? What
the fuck? Say something meaningful for once.
colinm...@gmail.com
it as definitive, which it isn't. I think your responsibility is to
play fairly, not to not play egregiously unfairly.
Your view of intentional infractions seems very narrow. "I'm just
going to close my eyes and chop with my arms like this and if I happen
to foul you, it wasn't intentional." Same thing with the fast-
counting. To me, it suggests a disregard for the rules, which would
warrant low spirit scores.
If your team is playing in such a way that it is consistently
violating the rules, then the players should make a change in the way
they play. Continuing to play in a way that violates the rules is
cheating. Intentionally cheating.
As for disputing calls, one can do it respectfully or otherwise. No
smiling is required, either way. Just respect.
mapler...@gmail.com
the winning team, there is no way around it and this process is
becoming a bit of an anachronism without much relevance at Nationals,
especially if there is no consequence to spiking the disc on someone's
chest after a goal, and no consequence to repeatedly low spirit
scores. When teams evaluate the other team's spirit at truly
competitive tournaments, there is a natural competitive tendency to
feel empathy for a team you beat, and a little jealousy or animosity
towards teams that beat you even if they didn't make poor calls or rub
it in your face with spikes and over the top in your face celebrations
after every goal.
Face it, the award has always been just a way of throwing a bone to
teams that finish in the bottom of the competition so they don't feel
so bad about it.
Local President Westport, CT Chapater - Spikeaholic's Anonymous
loveofthegame
It would be interesting to have observers give spirit scores as well,
and compare.
I would have the observers score focus mainly on if teams were
consistently making bad calls or not (both on fouls and on things like
constantly calling ticky-tack travels).
IrishZag
I wish you would learn how to write at a 5th grade level.
Lara
"loveofthegame" <thr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1194235577.5...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> Face it, the award has always been just a way of throwing a bone to
>> teams that finish in the bottom of the competition so they don't feel
>> so bad about it.
>>
>> Local President Westport, CT Chapater - Spikeaholic's Anonymous
>
> It would be interesting to have observers give spirit scores as well,
> and compare.
>
> I would have the observers score focus mainly on if teams were
> consistently making bad calls or not (both on fouls and on things like
> constantly calling ticky-tack travels).
Hold up ... constantly calling travels that are travels is somehow
unspirited?
Uh...How is that bad?
Please don't give me this crap about "you can travel without gaining
advantage" and those special travels shouldn't be called.
Because we all know that throwing without travelling is harder, so if you
travel, well, you gained an advantage by having an easier throw.
If you claim that you didn't gain an advantage, then why in the world did
you have to drag your foot? My only guess is lack of practice.
Learn to throw all your throws without travelling or learn to deal with
people saying the word "travel" every time you do it.
Or, you know, have someone else on the field that will actually call the
travels objectively.
Sounds crazy I know, but wouldn't it be great to just be a player and not
have to worry about this BS?
ulticritic
>
> Or, you know, have someone else on the field that will actually call the
> travels objectively.
> Sounds crazy I know, but wouldn't it be great to just be a player and not
> have to worry about this BS?
it sounds like you are suggesting...........the R-word
BKKDB...@gmail.com
The "Spirit of the game" is a core aspect of ultimate. Without belief
in it, you aren't playing it (meaning Ultimate with refs would not be
called Ultimate). We all see the reason for it... just look at how
Soccer players and basketball players work to manipulate refs in their
favor, rather than play on the sport to find out which team is best...
they cheat. The need for a center that would safeguard the Spirit of
the game was foreseen when the UPA was first formed. I hope they
continue their efforts.
Over the past 20 years, training about "Spirit" from the various teams
and local ultimate organizations has been weak and inconsistent (in
fact its likely that some teams still teach markers to intentionally
foul, or contest known fouls)... and thus players have grown
frustrated by the inconsistent application of the Spirit and called
for refs or observers (as noted by the critic). Both are really
unnecessary... if teams can raise their standards to higher and more
consistent level (simultaneously would be ideal).
Spirit scoring is a decent way to raise awareness. I would think
further positive actions would raise the general level of "Spirit" to
a much more consistent level - and ulticritics wouldn't have as much
to criticize anymore...
David Beller
pete
wrote:
> The "Spirit of the game" is a core aspect of ultimate. Without belief
> in it, you aren't playing it (meaning Ultimate with refs would not be
> called Ultimate).
I'm sorry, but to me this argument is just plain nuts.
"SOTG" means sportsmanship and respect for your fellow players. It
means not intentionally cheating, or bending the rules to your
advantage. Its nothing more. If you're saying you can't be a good,
fair player and have respect for the other players if refs are on the
field, then there is really something wrong with your idea of
sportsmanship, and you are a basically a hypocrite.
We all see the reason for it... just look at how
> Soccer players and basketball players work to manipulate refs in their
> favor, rather than play on the sport to find out which team is best...
> they cheat.
Words for the day: correlation and causation.
Players can learn what spirit means. I'd argue they understand it just
fine but cannot practice it in all situations due to competing
incentives. Impartial officials can do both though. It would seem
pretty simple to train the officials to make calls for "bad spirit".
At the beginning of the game, the official would talk to the teams and
say, "hey, let's have a clean fair game. Poor sportsmanship is going
to get you into foul trouble". He could even use the word "spirit"and
read the definition provided by the UPA.
The need for a center that would safeguard the Spirit of
> the game was foreseen when the UPA was first formed. I hope they
> continue their efforts.
>
> Over the past 20 years, training about "Spirit" from the various teams
> and local ultimate organizations has been weak and inconsistent (in
> fact its likely that some teams still teach markers to intentionally
> foul, or contest known fouls)... and thus players have grown
> frustrated by the inconsistent application of the Spirit and called
> for refs or observers (as noted by the critic). Both are really
> unnecessary... if teams can raise their standards to higher and more
> consistent level (simultaneously would be ideal).
Might work for summer league and "fun" tournaments, but good luck with
that when a trophy is on the line.
> Spirit scoring is a decent way to raise awareness.
It would go a lot faster if officials were handing out real penalties
for violations of sportsmanship.
Handy
Fact:
If you are serious about sportsmanship and SOTG you need to punish
those who don't exhibit it. By letting Lipscomb play after spiking
the disc on another player, the UPA showed that it doesn't actually
care about SOTG (nearly as much as they suggest). This is the biggest
stage in the sport and they let one of the most egregious acts of lack
of spirit and sportsmanship go without so much as a finger wag. Want
to emphasize spirit? Want to call it the core of the game? Don't
just say it, act it. This was an embarassment.
I'm not talking about referees, I'm not talking about observers, and I
don't mind spiking, what I'm talking about is doing what you say you
will, being consistent and not backing down. If this is the way the
game is played, stop mentioning spirit, cause it has officially taken
the backseat to intense play.
-Handy
ulticritic
> in it, you aren't playing it (meaning Ultimate with refs would not be
> called Ultimate).
so says the upa admin.......and you. Thing is there a lot of upa
members that just dont see it that way. And on top of that ultimate
is already played with impartial arbitratiors that are "refered" to in
case of dispute. You cant hide from the true definition of the word.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We all see the reason for it... just look at how
> Soccer players and basketball players work to manipulate refs in their
> favor, rather than play on the sport to find out which team is best...
that is such a bogus argument.....if players in normal sports with
refs focused on what they can get away with they wouldnt be able to
execute plays and strategies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> they cheat. The need for a center that would safeguard the Spirit of
> the game was foreseen when the UPA was first formed.
do your homework pal.....the original rules provided for the inclusion
of refs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope they
> continue their efforts.
>
> Over the past 20 years, training about "Spirit" from the various teams
> and local ultimate organizations has been weak and inconsistent
isnt this the job of the administration though......to create strength
and consistancy......which is hard to achieve when one of the local,
home grown, players of upa land spikes in anger on an opponent in a
upa showcased event and it goes relitively unpunished
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(in
> fact its likely that some teams still teach markers to intentionally
> foul, or contest known fouls)...
so are you saying that in this aspect that ultimate is really no
different than soccer or b-ball.......tactic wise?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
and thus players have grown
> frustrated by the inconsistent application of the Spirit and called
> for refs or observers (as noted by the critic).
understandably so....right?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Both are really
> unnecessary... if teams can raise their standards to higher and more
> consistent level (simultaneously would be ideal).
and if you lived in a gumdrop house on marshmellow lane then everthing
would be just dandy........get real dude
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Spirit scoring is a decent way to raise awareness.
if by decent you mean gay.....i'll agree
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would think
> further positive actions would raise the general level of "Spirit" to
> a much more consistent level - and ulticritics wouldn't have as much
> to criticize anymore...
you would think.....but you'de be wrong
Joe Buck
http://www.sportingo.com/basketball/unhappy_nba_referees_lets_try/1001,5489
loveofthegame
I mean that calling lots of borderline travel calls is unspirited. Of
course if someone travels and you see it, you should call it, but some
teams or players seem to be watching for the smallest pivot foot
movement and call it, and half the time they're imagining it.
pete
> On Nov 5, 11:13 am, ulticritic <t...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
Unless I read it wrong, the author here seemed to be implying (quite
sarcastically) that the honor system would be a complete joke.
Seriously, how many times have you heard an ultimate player call a
foul or any other infraction on themselves, despite the fact that that
is exactly what you're supposed to do?
uhmmm... never?
Elizabeth D Murray
> how many times have you heard an ultimate player call a foul or any other
> infraction on themselves, despite the fact that that is exactly what you're
> supposed to do?
http://www.upa.org/ultimate/rules/11th#XVI
XVI Violations and Fouls
A. An infraction MAY ONLY BE CALLED BY A PLAYER ON THE INFRACTED TEAM who
recognizes that it has occurred, unless specified differently elsewhere.
H. Fouls:
1. A foul CAN BE CALLED ONLY BY THE FOULED PLAYER and must be announced by
loudly calling foul immediately after it occurs.
ulticritic
> On Nov 5, 2:22 pm, Joe Buck <birdf...@gmail.com> wrote:.
>
> > On Nov 5, 11:13 am, ulticritic <t...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.sportingo.com/basketball/unhappy_nba_referees_lets_try/100...
>
> Unless I read it wrong, the author here seemed to be implying (quite
> sarcastically) that the honor system would be a complete joke.
> Seriously, how many times have you heard an ultimate player call a
> foul or any other infraction on themselves, despite the fact that that
> is exactly what you're supposed to do?
>
> uhmmm... never?
no shit.....thanks for pointing out, joe, how absurd the sporting
world feels the notion of "the honor system" is in competitive
sports. And whats worse is the fact that some ultimate kooks chimed
in and said.....duh, this is how we arbitrate our sport....duh.
pete
>
> <schuhma...@uncw.edu> wrote:
> > how many times have you heard an ultimate player call a foul or any other
> > infraction on themselves, despite the fact that that is exactly what you're
> > supposed to do?
>
> Why do you think that?
>
> http://www.upa.org/ultimate/rules/11th#XVI
>
> XVI Violations and Fouls
>
> > A. An infraction MAY ONLY BE CALLED BY A PLAYER ON THE INFRACTED TEAM who
> > recognizes that it has occurred, unless specified differently elsewhere.
>
> > H. Fouls:
> >> 1. A foul CAN BE CALLED ONLY BY THE FOULED PLAYER and must be announced by
> >> loudly calling foul immediately after it occurs.
And if you keep reading you get to:
XIX. Etiquette
1. If an infraction is committed and not called, the player
committing the infraction should inform the infracted player or team
of the infraction.
which of course never happens.
ulticritic
> I mean that calling lots of borderline travel calls is unspirited. Of
> course if someone travels and you see it, you should call it,
by "someone" do you mean anyone.....or just one of the opposing teams
players? the reason i ask is that when you use the term someone (and
this touches on pete's point in the above post) you imply that ANY
player on the field should call a travel no matter who the guilty
party is and we simply know that this is not a reality in
ultimate......which supports the idea that sotg is a fantasy and an
illusion.......not to mention the fact that there was an incident at
nationals in which punches were thrown and in the semis someone
aggressively spiked a disc on an opposing player. Face it people,
your not monks. Get with the rest of the sports world and start
incorporating refs into ultimate.
but some
> teams or players seem to be watching for the smallest pivot foot
> movement and call it, and half the time they're imagining it.
and sotg implies that such techno weenie calls should be made on any
player that violates the rules.....whether they are on your team or
not.
ulticritic
> 1194296665.518550.221...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com, "pete"
>
> <schuhma...@uncw.edu> wrote:
> > how many times have you heard an ultimate player call a foul or any other
> > infraction on themselves, despite the fact that that is exactly what you're
> > supposed to do?
>
> Why do you think that?
so what you and the rules say is that it is against the sotg to call a
foul or violation on yourself (or a violation on a
teammate).......seems like that would be the highest possible way to
show spirit and an anti "win at all cost" attitude.......yet the rules
dont allow for it.....go figure.......what a fucked up arbitration
system and set of rules this sport has......which is why it will never
make it without a complete overhaul.
emu...@sful.org
Informing the infracted player or team and calling a foul on yourself
are not the same thing.
pete
Ohhhh... OK.
You keep telling yourself that.
Call it what you want, its in the rules as something to do to be a
good spirited sport, and it never happens outside of summer league.
jeremia...@gmail.com
>
> Ohhhh... OK.
> You keep telling yourself that.
> Call it what you want, its in the rules as something to do to be a
> good spirited sport, and it never happens outside of summer league.
sure it does
maybe not at nationals(i wouldn't know since i haven't been yet) but
certainly at sectionals and regionals
dusty
see...
i used to call fouls on myself all of the time. well, not all of the
time, but all of the time that i fouled someone and then they didn't
call it. Which was not that often, actually. So... some of the
time. Regardless, I kept doing it because i read the rules and that's
what the rules said. I like to play fairly even though I'm a big
jerk.
As i slowly got to higher levels of play, the response was no longer
"thanks" it was "i know." Then it became "I know, I don't want to
call the foul on you." Then it became "dusty, shut the fuck up."
Then I stopped because I didn't like being told to shut the fuck up.
So I shut the fuck up. That's kinda messed up, but that's a different
story.
Anyway, there I was, neither calling fouls on myself nor being sworn
at, and it hit me. This is much better. Why? Because EVERYONE ELSE
KNEW THE RULES. And they had the power to call that foul/infraction
themselves. I can just play. The freedom! The joy! I could have
someone else watch me and say "that was a foul" and then if they
didn't say that, it wasn't. If I disagreed, we could argue for a
while. Which was fun. It was like the game within the game. I'd
argue just for fun to see how people would respond. Not that I tried
to win the argument in terms of getting the call to go my way, but
that I tried to win the argument in terms of learning about my
opponent. You can learn a lot about someone from the way they argue/
discuss calls.
As soon as I got used to that, I started getting into more rules
arguments because, as it turned out, not everyone at that level of
play knew the rules anyway. They just assumed that they did. Then,
even without calling fouls on myself I got told to shut the fuck up.
I didn't like that this time around either. But y'know what? I'd
rather be told to shut the fuck up than to let someone else be a
stickler for rules that don't exist. That is irritating as crap.
Then again, that used to happen in high school sports too. I mean, we
had refs for soccer, but none of them had ever played soccer. They
all played football. So, we played a really rough game of soccer in
the area. 10 guys (including a keeper) who wanted nothing more than
to knock your teeth out and start a fight plus one skilled player. I
was neither skilled nor a keeper. Same with basketball. I wasn't a
keeper there either. But that's because they don't have keepers in
basketball. They did however also have all football/wrestling refs
for basketball. We often knew the rules better than they did because
we could, in fact, identify what a soccer or basketball game was
supposed to look like. If you wanted a fairly referred sport, you had
to play football or baseball or wrestle. I know. It's a fact.
FACT. Verifiable. Just ask me, I'll sign a form in triplicate as I
witness myself telling you twice just to validate myself as a credible
source.
The advantage, however, was that I rarely got told to shut the fuck
up. That was nice. I appreciated that. I did, however, get kicked
out of a game once. But the ref was my coach. Which was weird. I
think he was making an example out of me. The problem was, I didn't'
understand what I was an example of, exactly. I know for sure that my
teammates didn't figure it out. I asked them. They said that they
would rather not have to understand why our coach threw the least-
carded player on the team out of a game. Before I forget, red and
yellow cards are BY FAR the the best way to discipline people during
the game. It has some theatricality to it. You get presented with
the card for all to see. Gotta have a little shame in your game.
"Like, Hello Nasty where you been?" We should bring that out for
ultimate. Get all of the players to carry around their own red and
yellow cards to present to other players when they've committed a
cardible offense. Then we could all argue those calls too! That
could degenerate into complete and utter absurdity right quick. Which
is the whole point, right?
So, moral(s) of the story, for those of you scoring at home (It was a
6-4-3 double play, by the way):
1. Call fouls on yourself if you eventually want to be told to shut
the fuck up.
2. Call fouls on other people if you eventually want to be told to
shut the fuck up.
3. Play with refs if you don't want to be told to shut the fuck up.
4. Something else. I lost track.
Damn, those weren't even morals. They were just "things that I
mentioned." So... moral:
If you play sports, someone will tell you to shut the fuck up...
But it won't be the same person who presents you with your redcard.
music on tap: radiohead, in rainbows
dusty.rhodes
at gmail.com
(btw, pay radiohead for their recent album or feel guilty. your
choice. there are no other options.)
ulticritic
funny, in all my years of playing ultimate ive never, ever seen an
ultimate player tell his opponent "oh, by the way, i just traveled on
that throw.....you might want to keep an eye on my pivot foot next
time". and ya got to admit that for all the tick tacky travel calls
youve seen against an opponent youve never seen one called (even an
obvious one) by a team mate. As for fouls......same thing goes. Its
so rare that anyone would call a foul on themselves if it goes
uncalled by the infracted play just continues. It all just goes back
to the utter absurdity of a sport being arbitrated with a honor system
facilitation.....outside of the sandlot/pickup scenerio.
ulticritic
first off, nice post.....a little long but very objective and
entertanining
> what the rules said. I like to play fairly even though I'm a big
> jerk.
you and everybody else that plays this sport.......hence the absurdity
of spirit being the over riding theme,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Anyway, there I was, neither calling fouls on myself nor being sworn
> at, and it hit me. This is much better. Why? Because EVERYONE ELSE
> KNEW THE RULES. And they had the power to call that foul/infraction
> themselves. I can just play. The freedom! The joy!
you dont know freedom and joy in ulty untill youve played with
refs......qualified refs that is.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could have
> someone else watch me and say "that was a foul" and then if they
> didn't say that, it wasn't. If I disagreed, we could argue for a
> while. Which was fun. It was like the game within the game. I'd
> argue just for fun to see how people would respond. Not that I tried
> to win the argument in terms of getting the call to go my way, but
> that I tried to win the argument in terms of learning about my
> opponent. You can learn a lot about someone from the way they argue/
> discuss calls.
and why the sport should be called ultdebate......but really, all that
arguing just makes you look like like a prick.....and the louder and
longer the argument is the more of a prick you look like. A huge
distraction for spectators too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. But y'know what? I'd
> rather be told to shut the fuck up than to let someone else be a
> stickler for rules that don't exist.
in this case are you refering to an opponent in ulty or a ref in every
other sport?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is irritating as crap.
> Then again, that used to happen in high school sports too. I mean, we
> had refs for soccer,
dont ya mean you had A ref for soccer........ultimate should never
model its ref schemes after soccer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
but none of them had ever played soccer. They
> all played football. So, we played a really rough game of soccer in
> the area. 10 guys (including a keeper) who wanted nothing more than
> to knock your teeth out and start a fight plus one skilled player.
so there you got no. 1 prerequisite for refing ulty......have to have
played the sport.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you wanted a fairly referred sport, you had
> to play football or baseball or wrestle. I know. It's a fact.
> FACT. Verifiable. Just ask me, I'll sign a form in triplicate as I
> witness myself telling you twice just to validate myself as a credible
> source.
again, not a valid reason not to incorporate refs into ulty......if
anything a valuable lesson though. Bad experiences with refs in other
sports should teach us what not to do when implamenting them into
ulty.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The advantage, however, was that I rarely got told to shut the fuck
> up. That was nice. I appreciated that.
if i were refing and you started arguing with me the way some players
argue with each other youde get told to shut the fuck up......probably
with a whistle and a "T".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before I forget, red and
> yellow cards are BY FAR the the best way to discipline people during
> the game. It has some theatricality to it.
bzzzt, wrong. there should be fouls assesed of varing degree and a
limit enforced. cards are too arbitrary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
You get presented with
> the card for all to see. Gotta have a little shame in your game.
> "Like, Hello Nasty where you been?" We should bring that out for
> ultimate.
speaking of which, i still havent herd if the bravo "spiker" actually
got shown a yellow card (to reenforce said shame).....or if they even
carry cards on their person while observing.....i'm sure the crowd
would have gotten a kick out of seeing that.......visual enhancement
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get all of the players to carry around their own red and
> yellow cards to present to other players when they've committed a
> cardible offense. Then we could all argue those calls too! That
> could degenerate into complete and utter absurdity right quick. Which
> is the whole point, right?
isnt that where the sport is at now?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Call fouls on yourself if you eventually want to be told to shut
> the fuck up.
> 2. Call fouls on other people if you eventually want to be told to
> shut the fuck up.
> 3. Play with refs if you don't want to be told to shut the fuck up.
> 4. Something else. I lost track.
choose 3
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> If you play sports, someone will tell you to shut the fuck up...
> But it won't be the same person who presents you with your redcard.
again.....presenting a red card is just a refs way of telling to shut
the fuck up......and get the fuck out too
Joe Buck
> you and everybody else that plays this sport.......hence the absurdity
An overzealous EPA inspector, Walter Peck, arrives and starts asking
questions, concerned about the use of toxic chemicals in the
Ghostbusters' business.
> in this case are you refering to an opponent in ulty or a ref in every
> other sport?
Initially brushed off by Venkman, Peck angrily returns with a court
order to shut down the ghost containment facility, although he is
warned that it will bring dire consequences.
> dont ya mean you had A ref for soccer........ultimate should never
> model its ref schemes after soccer.
An electrician shuts the grid down, and all the captured ghosts
immediately burst forth in a fantastic explosion. A massive number of
supernatural events spark chaos throughout the city as long-dead
spirits run wild, terrorizing the populace.
> so there you got no. 1 prerequisite for refing ulty......have to have
> played the sport.
Peck accuses the Ghostbusters of causing the explosion due to their
own negligence and has them arrested.
> again, not a valid reason not to incorporate refs into ulty......if
> anything a valuable lesson though. Bad experiences with refs in other
> sports should teach us what not to do when implamenting them into
> ulty.
Meanwhile, Louis Tully/Vinz Clortho wanders off during the mayhem,
mumbling to himself that the eruption of the containment grid was the
omen he was waiting for.
dusty
> first off, nice post.....a little long but very objective and
> entertanining
Thanks? I don't remember what I wrote and I find my writing tedious.
I'll take your word for it. I think there is one explanation for
thinking anything i write is worthwhile. And it ain't legal. It does
go well with gouda and apple omelet's though. That's right. You just
wish you had made it yourself. [The general you, not you
specifically, ulticritic.]
> > what the rules said. I like to play fairly even though I'm a big
> > jerk.
>
> you and everybody else that plays this sport.......hence the absurdity
> of spirit being the over riding theme,
Funny you mention that... I've decided to define spirit for myself.
I'll always treat my opponents fairly and i don't intentionally
cheat. Ever. That's it. Show respect and don't cheat. The only
sport I intentionally cheated at was soccer. And that was because my
coach told me to cheat or ride the pine. Just like the rest of my
team. "Either the ball or the man can go past you. NEVER both."
That was our team motto. And more likely than not, since the ball was
a lot smaller and harder to hit, we would just hit our opponents and
take the penalty. Eventually they'd stop trying. Usually before
someone got red-carded. Anyway, I don't cheat unless I'm playing
against a teammate in practice. Then, I'm a cheating motherfucker.
Because other teams will do it. And no way i'm letting that garbage
work against my team.
> you dont know freedom and joy in ulty untill youve played with
> refs......qualified refs that is.
Guy, you should be careful defining what freedom and joy mean for
other people. Tell me refs are better, put on an event and I'll be
there. Do not define what freedom and joy mean for me. Really.
That's some bullshit.
> and why the sport should be called ultdebate......but really, all that
> arguing just makes you look like like a prick.....and the louder and
> longer the argument is the more of a prick you look like. A huge
> distraction for spectators too.
Who said anything about getting loud?
Besides, I think if you put a mic on me during an argument you'd be
entertained. At least back in the day when I lost my temper under my
breath. Not so much now. I'm over that. Mostly.
> dont ya mean you had A ref for soccer........ultimate should never
> model its ref schemes after soccer.
No, I don't. When I say we had football refS for soccer, that's what
I meant. We had either 2 or 3 whistle-weilding fuckers on the field
at all times for HS soccer. They modeled their system after football,
not soccer.
> again, not a valid reason not to incorporate refs into ulty......
Who is arguing against refs?
> bzzzt, wrong. there should be fouls assesed of varing degree and a
> limit enforced. cards are too arbitrary.
Whatever. Cards are still more fun.
I'm not concerned about varying degree and foul limits. I want to see
people given cards. I love that moment when you have to stand in
front of the ref and he shows you that shit. Then you have to take
the walk of shame off the field. Love it.
> speaking of which, i still havent herd if the bravo "spiker" actually
> got shown a yellow card (to reenforce said shame).....or if they even
> carry cards on their person while observing.....i'm sure the crowd
> would have gotten a kick out of seeing that.......visual enhancement
1. I'm tired of a referendum on one (two?) player's actions on this
fucking forum by people who weren't there. that's bullshit. If you
want to know what happened, talk to one of the players in question.
Otherwise? SHUT THE FUCK UP.
2. I was there. I don't remember a card. In fact, I would say that
no one near me knew exactly what was going on other than "Holy shit,
he really did spike it ON him. I can't believe no one punched that
guy in the mouth! Oh wait, the guy who got spiked on just walked
away. That's why. I think he knew."
> isnt that where the sport is at now?
all sports are orchestrated absurdity.
That's one of the reasons i love them so.
Anyway, I don't know how I got into this discussion a second time
around, but that's already done. I'll probably forget about this by
the time I get to work. Then, in a day or so, I'll read rsd again and
be like "Who's this dusty asshole and what's he blathering about?"
I'll hope it was one of the other dustys. Then I'll realize it wasn't
and hate myself for typing this crap. Then i'll have to explain
myself to myself. Which always ends poorly because I don't like
listening to myself and I don't stand up to my own questioning very
well. "[I] buckle. Like a belt."
music on tap: aesop rock, none shall pass
dusty.rhodes
at gmail.com
ulticritic
The only
> sport I intentionally cheated at was soccer.
that seems to be a norm for that sport.....and why i hate it when
people refer to ulty deteriorating into that level of sportsmanship
just because refs are introduced.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > you dont know freedom and joy in ulty untill youve played with
> > refs......qualified refs that is.
>
> Guy, you should be careful defining what freedom and joy mean for
> other people.
why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell me refs are better, put on an event and I'll be
> there.
did you make the 06 potlatch tourny? If not its not likley i will put
or help put on another event. After the demise of MLU i pretty much
took off my promoter hat and put on a critic hat. Its not that hard
to do though.....even at a simple pick up game, just need some
whistles, watches and zebra stripes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not define what freedom and joy mean for me. Really.
> That's some bullshit.
hey, its your choice, i'm just sayin. I'm sure if you search some of
the nua threads from back in the day you will get similar testimony.
Just sayin its very liberating just to be able to play and not have to
ref too.....and the pace is soooo much quicker. worth the effort for
sure. And isint it better to have first hand knowledge of somthing as
apposed to just speculation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Who said anything about getting loud?
most lengthy arguments usually get loud.....and explicit
> Besides, I think if you put a mic on me during an argument you'd be
> entertained.
you seem comical so i could see that, but most ult-debates are rather
tedious and a waste of time
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> No, I don't. When I say we had football refS for soccer, that's what
> I meant. We had either 2 or 3 whistle-weilding fuckers on the field
> at all times for HS soccer. They modeled their system after football,
> not soccer.
wierd.......i like the idea of 2 to 3 refs for soccer (they need at
least 3 plus the linesmen) but i just cant see allowing people
unfimiliar with the sport reffin it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > again, not a valid reason not to incorporate refs into ulty......
>
> Who is arguing against refs?
just assumed you were........kind of hard to tell if you were actually
making a point as to which system was better.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > bzzzt, wrong. there should be fouls assesed of varing degree and a
> > limit enforced. cards are too arbitrary.
>
> Whatever. Cards are still more fun.
> I'm not concerned about varying degree and foul limits. I want to see
> people given cards. I love that moment when you have to stand in
> front of the ref and he shows you that shit. Then you have to take
> the walk of shame off the field. Love it.
yea i like that oo.....or when someone gets "T'd" up in b-ball or
ejected in baseball. I think the refs add drama and the more creative
they are the more it enhances the entertainment value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > speaking of which, i still havent herd if the bravo "spiker" actually
> > got shown a yellow card (to reenforce said shame).....or if they even
> > carry cards on their person while observing.....i'm sure the crowd
> > would have gotten a kick out of seeing that.......visual enhancement
>
> 1. I'm tired of a referendum on one (two?) player's actions on this
> fucking forum by people who weren't there. that's bullshit. If you
> want to know what happened, talk to one of the players in question.
> Otherwise? SHUT THE FUCK UP.
easy francis.......i was just elaborating on, and aggreeing with your
"love" of the carding process.......and felt it should have been
instituted for the reasons you listed (walk of shame). And i wouldnt
get all in a bag over it.......i think mostly that chatter was
directed at the upa and their inconsistant aproach to disipline not
really at the player himself
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 2. I was there. I don't remember a card. In fact, I would say that
> no one near me knew exactly what was going on other than "Holy shit,
> he really did spike it ON him. I can't believe no one punched that
> guy in the mouth! Oh wait, the guy who got spiked on just walked
> away. That's why. I think he knew."
none the less......if the guy gets carded it should be done so that
spectators.....as well as statistitians and participants are fully
aware of what the call is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > isnt that where the sport is at now?
>
> all sports are orchestrated absurdity.
> That's one of the reasons i love them so.
well if you go back to the link joe buck provided on the notion of
incorporating "the honor system" in to the arbitration system in
sports you'll notice that the sport of ultimate was the only one that
chimed in and actually, and admitedly, showed support for that type of
system.......even though the artical was making a total mockery of it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Anyway, I don't know how I got into this discussion a second time
> around, but that's already done. I'll probably forget about this by
> the time I get to work. Then, in a day or so, I'll read rsd again and
> be like "Who's this dusty asshole and what's he blathering about?"
> I'll hope it was one of the other dustys. Then I'll realize it wasn't
> and hate myself for typing this crap. Then i'll have to explain
> myself to myself. Which always ends poorly because I don't like
> listening to myself and I don't stand up to my own questioning very
> well. "[I] buckle. Like a belt."
well at least you can take comfort in knowing that you provided all us
rsders some creative, entertaining and even insightful dialouge from
the normal drivel
throw
"Guy, you should be careful defining what freedom and joy mean for
other people. Tell me refs are better, put on an event and I'll be
there. Do not define what freedom and joy mean for me. Really.
That's some bullshit. "
You go Dusty...
Ol' ulticritic is a cream puff out here ya know. Yes, occassionally
foul mouthed and fuming but he generally sits there on his couch
watching sports sports sports tv and dreaming of Rage concerts of
days gone by.
"Man, if only Rage had recorded Dark Star. That would be a rage-uh-
liscious. Honey, where's the remote?"
Yeah, he gets up and goes into the other room to blather online now
and then, but that's about it.
A bonafide cream puffy with little wind left in his sails.
Later,
Hank
"Where ball sports are dead."
ulticritic
> Dusty responded to ulticritic:
>
> "Guy, you should be careful defining what freedom and joy mean for
> other people. Tell me refs are better, put on an event and I'll be
> there. Do not define what freedom and joy mean for me. Really.
> That's some bullshit. "
>
> You go Dusty...
oh yea, he really stuck it to me on that one
>
> Ol' ulticritic is a cream puff out here ya know. Yes, occassionally
> foul mouthed and fuming but he generally sits there on his couch
> watching sports sports sports tv and dreaming of Rage concerts of
> days gone by.
you are such a fuckn idiot throw......i reference a rage against the
machine tune one time and you just cant let it go. try and come up
with somthing new for a change. and as far as bein a cream puff,
you're one to talk with your little pussy white bread website and your
little gay hippy tie dye heart logo. More like the portal to suck ass
pussy non ultimate playin wanna be's. do yourself a favor and take
that lame site off the web.
>
> "Man, if only Rage had recorded Dark Star. That would be a rage-uh-
> liscious. Honey, where's the remote?"
fuck the grateful dead.....and fuck that tune dark star......there was
a reason they went so long without playin it......the song sucks. and
everyone knows how easily the remote goes missing.......you know the
same thing happens to you......only difference bein that when you ask
your honey where its at you are talkin to your boyfriend......you
faggot ass bitch.
>
> Yeah, he gets up and goes into the other room to blather online now
> and then, but that's about it.
hey thats my business.....dont worry about what i do
>
> A bonafide cream puffy with little wind left in his sails.
shit mutha fucka i'm just gettin started here. Think i'd back down
just when the worms gettin ready to turn. You obviously dont know me.
> "Where ball sports are dead."
what the fuck is that supposed to mean anyways....where ball sports
are dead......thats the stupidist fuckin thing i've herd. Just goes
to show how much of a chip you got on your sholder cause nobody
recognizes your sport......and ironically of all the disc sports
ultimate is still below disc golf and K9 comp.......you are a silly
boy throw........wake up and get into the real world.....where ball
sports (with refs) dominate
throw
You are such a predictable chucklehead.
Simmer down a bit and get some chores done okay?
You'll feel better inside.
Joe Buck
> shit mutha fucka i'm just gettin started here. Think i'd back down
> just when the worms gettin ready to turn. You obviously dont know me.
i thought whenever things didn't go perfectly you quit?
see NUA and MLU
or go to wikipedia and look up"yackity sax"
that's a great song.
I play that in my head when I read your posts.
throw
ulticritic,
Go ahead and put a little direct pressure on that asap... to stop the
bleeding.
Peter Mc
www.thisisultimate.com
Baer
>......but really, all that
> arguing just makes you look like like a prick.....and the louder and
> longer the argument is the more of a prick you look like. A huge
> distraction for spectators too.
>
Ah... I don't think this is the worst problem with self-officiation,
but I think it's a big deal to many players. Even though it's not
necesarily unspirited to make a call (rules are rules), the fact that
arguing a call makes you look like a prick and feel like a prick is a
problem. I don't feel good about calling fouls on my opponent, but
sometimes you have to and it sucks. When things escalate, you get mad
at each other (and I usually like having fun with my opponents on and
off the field).
I know a lot of players say self-officiation is what spirit is all
about, but it makes the game less fun and leads to bad feelings if
you're in a competetive game and their is some hacking or travleing
going on. To spectators (if there are any), it also looks terrible.
Seeing people argue about something when no one else knows what
happened seriously takes away from everyone's enjoyment of the game.
This is a major reason (to me anyway) that we should have refs. Refs
would not only improve the flow of the game but also improve spirit
(unless you are one of those that defines spirit only by self-
officiation).
ulticritic
> On Nov 6, 7:58 am, ulticritic <t...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > shit mutha fucka i'm just gettin started here. Think i'd back down
> > just when the worms gettin ready to turn. You obviously dont know me.
>
> i thought whenever things didn't go perfectly you quit?
how could that be.......there still aint to refs in ulty
and ......hello.....i'm still here
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> see NUA and MLU
NUA......the original (in the 90's) or the reemergance (in
04)........i didnt quit......the teams and players quit........same
with MLU.
ulticritic
> ouch...thats gotta smart a bit.
to all those players and teams that bailed on tryin to make ultimate a
true sport.......i'm sure it does
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Peter Mcwww.thisisultimate.com
>
> "Where ball sports are dead."
which is only in peters little sorry ass world
Joe Buck
> NUA......the original (in the 90's) or the reemergance (in
> 04)........i didnt quit......the teams and players quit........same
> with MLU.
GODDAMN THEM.
GODDAMN THAT VOCAL MINORITY THAT DIDN'T WANT TO PLAY YOUR GAME.
If only the silent majority hadn't been unfairly silenced by the
spirit zealots and had the opportunity to fulfill your dream.
jacob...@gmail.com
that Toad Leber (AKA Ulticritic) "quit" in his pursuits to change
Ultimate. I hung out with Toad at his home (if I'm not mistaken, it
was a gumdrop house on marshmallow lane) in 1994 and heard him talking
about several non-ref-related ideas which the UPA has since adopted;
such as a yardage penalty for out-of-bounds pulls and time limits in
between points. In other words, the NUA is more analogous to the ABA
(where the 3-point shot was first used, I think) than it is to the
XFL, as the dominant, longer-lasting organization (UPA) has actually
appropriated some of its seemingly radical ideas, even after the
smaller league had faded.
It's not quitting when those you attempt to influence adopt some of
your ideas while rejecting others.