UltiVillage UPA Championship DVDs clarifications
Rob
going on with the women's, mixed and masters divisions. Let me try to
set this straight.
Disc 4 features the Open division. It is similar to last year's Disc 1,
but instead of College at the end, this is 104 minutes of game
highlights and interviews that tells the story of the 2005 UPA fall
series, starting at the NW Regionals and on to Sarasota. It has footage
of every open team in at least 2 games, and is all put to the beats of
DJ Un1t and Joe Carter. This DVD is scheduled to be shipped Friday,
December 9th.
UV is also in the process of releasing a UPA Championship DVD that has
Qtr, Semi and Finals highlights of the Women's division, along with the
finals of both the Masters and Mixed divisions. It is still a week away
from completion but may still be available for this holiday season.
Women's highlights are still to come on the clip of the day as well.
Just waiting to get my hands on the footage as it is currenlty being
edited off site.
Thanks for all of your support in 2005. We hope to continue expanding
our ultimate coverage in 2006 and beyond.
Rob
Fish
You rock
Fish
wiggity
Wiggity
deer....@gmail.com
There's only a -little- confusion, you're right. Because most of of us
understand right now that it's UltiVillage's goal to promote Open
ultimate first and foremost. Women's, Mixed and masters are clearly
2nd best, if that. Some might think that official nationals dvd would
actually focus on the tournament itself instead of one division that is
superior to the rest.
We have to wait for the Women's/Mixed/Masters highlights because you
are too busy with what's really important (0pen) to focus at all on the
other highlights of the sport. Send it offsite - I'm sure they'll do a
great job with the editing.
Nobody thinks for a second that any of the other less significant
footage will be available for the holiday season. The good thing is,
most people don't give a shit about non-Open ultimate, so I'm sure you
still have the support of 90% of your customers.
Reid K
directly into his mouth. i for one, rob, appreciate what you are doing
and look forward to Disc 4, as well as Disc 2. I know you're working
your ass off for us.
bobdigital33
theres really no one else putting this kind of work into ultimate DVDs
right now- so keep it up
digital
FreeRo...@gmail.com
are doing. if you want the mixed and womens footage as quick, how about
you put forth your time effort and resources into making the video. The
worst part isnt that your upset about him only showing one division,
its that your upset hes not showing what concerns you. In that case id
recomend that you dont buy it. I on the other hand will continue to pay
for quality recordings of the highest level of ultimate.
Hey Rob, great job your doing. Love the clip of the day and the footage
iv boughten from you.
-JephB
scoop
> foremost.
I sure hope so. As a fan, this is the footage i most want to see.
Rob
I'm sure that every division would love it if I put together a Disc1
type DVD of their divisions, but the fact of the matter is that this is
not feasible. As it is, putting together the Open Division DVDs is
barely feasible. The fact of the matter is that most people want to
watch the best ultimate available. This happens to be Open. There is an
interest in Women's, Masters, and Mixed but to date I have no hard
evidence that a DVD featuring these divisions will sell well. I'm
taking a risk and spending the money to produce such a DVD. If it sells
well, there will be more to come in the near future. If it doesn't, it
may be a while before I go down this road again.
I'm flattered that people think UV is this ultimate institution that is
going bring all of the ultimate imagineable to their door step. The
fact of the matter is that every ultimate tournament I now film has to
be able to help pay the bills. This isn't some selfless quest that I'm
taking on, this is an attempt to build an ultimate based business that
focusses on bringing the best ultimate in the world to your TV screen.
There will come a time when I have the resources to produce a women's,
mixed or masters DVD in the the Disc 1 genre. It may take a couple of
years to get there though.
UV has been around for just over 1 year and I'm very excited about the
future of the business, but just like any other business, it has to
grow sustainably. To try to give everybody everything they want right
now is just not possible.
Again, I want to thank everyone for your support throughtout 2005. If
things keep going at the pace they are it won't be long before I'm able
to focus on other divisions, but as for now, I know who butters my
bread.
Rob
Jay
suprised i havent broken the dvds yet from all the usage. On Disc 4, is
there any helpful clips on there like on disc 3?
Justin
According to some leftist conspiracy minded ultimate players I have
met, as a former state prosecutor, I am supposed to have lots of
experience organizing meetings and strategies to violate people's civil
rights. Clearly, if you need extra help suppressing the scourge of
mixed ultimate, I am your man.
One piece of advice I'd like to suggest is to make sure you have all of
your document destruction policies in place, and lots of shredding
capacity in advance of nationals. With digital media today, it's
simply not enough to move things off-site to delay production. You
never know when someone might make an illegal copy of mixed or women's
footage, and suddenly you'll have twenty years to plan out what not to
say in front of the grand jury next time around.
Also, I'd highly recommend moving any assets you have out of Canada
immediately. In years past I'd have recommended Argentina, but since
we've had "the Judge" Alberto Gonzales in acgtion things in the USA are
looking up. I think in a few more years we'll be ready to move mixed
Nationals to Guantanamo Bay or a secret location in Eastern Europe.
Now that will be a Disc 2 that everyone would watch.
ok, hopefully I've offended just about everyone now. Great Job with
Disc 1, looking forward to seeing this years edition.
ultimat...@gmail.com
guess my issue with it is that this was posted in another thread:
"Disc 4: The Official DVD of the 2005 UPA Club
Championships, brought to you by UltiVillage and sponsored by VC
Ultimate, Discraft and the Ultimate Players Association"
It's "the" official DVD of Club Championships, brought to you by (and I
assume approved by) the UPA and the Club Championship sponsors, but it
only features Open? Maybe putting "Open" somewhere in that title would
help with the clarification or seem like less of a snub to the other
divisions?
becky
Mortakai
saying brought to you by UV, and sponsored by the others (including
UPA), while in the third paragraph, you've changed the "sponsored" to
"brought to you by". There's a big difference between the two.
My understanding is the UPA only "sponsoring" it and it's *not* their
DVD.
Sun's Rising on a
on you for making rational decisions that take economc factors into
consideration. My only complaint is that the titles of the DVDs aren't
too exciting.
And most/all of this is from a one man operation!
d
ultimat...@gmail.com
I'm contradicting. and it wasn't necessarily intentional - I think I
just meant to paraphrase. regardless, I apologize, but that wasn't the
point anyway. my comments were mostly about the actual title of the
DVD.
however, it's my understanding (may well be wrong) that the UPA hired
VC Ultimate who in turn, teamed up with UltiVillage. so, it might not
be *their* DVD but I think they hired VC/UV to produce a dvd on behalf
of the UPA? am I turning words again? semantics...
Handy
However, the lack of Disc 2 is messing up my DVD orginization dammit.
Knappy
You're doing an awesome job. Rational people understand the concepts of
limited resources and choosing priorities. Ignore the irrational ones.
Nice work on Disc 1 & 3. Looking forward to the 2005 Nationals discs.
Knappy
Zontal
You are doing a great job. Don't let a few naysayers discourage or
annoy you. I think that the majority of the ultimate community is just
thrilled that there is someone out there willing to put their
time/money/effort into broadening the exposure our sport has.
I'll be one of those people that buys the women's/mixed/master
DVD...but first and foremost I am a loyal customer and ultimate player
and fan that will support you as much as I can.
Keep up the great work. More people appreciate you than you probably
realize
bk
My team came in 10th in the Master's division. Thus, I suspect that the
DVD you produce focusing on our rise to greatness will be available to
the ulti community shortly after Disc 4 is finished. Can we call it
"Disc 5 - A G&T Timeout Story"?
BK
WeaselU...@gmail.com
college and rich), but the chances of me even watching a DVD of womens
and mixed ultimate (even if I got it for free) are less than or equal
to the low chances of me buying Disc 4. I did watch the womens
division of the World Games DVD, though, because the Canadian and
Finnish chicks are hot, and, hey, the DVD was already in because I was
watching the Open footage.
Ducky
what...That soap box has sailed.
Instead, I'm going to touch up my make-up, put on my apron and get
dinner ready so that my man will have today's rsd print outs, a cold
pint of beer and a warm supper ready when he gets home from a hard day
of ultimate. After all, what business does the little woman have out in
the cold and mud. It might ruin my perm. Heavens-to-betsy, I could chip
a nail! Why would women even try to learn such a sport when men can
clearly play the game better then women ever could.
Gimme a freakin' break.
I'm thinking it's time to take this issue to a more legitimate arena.
E-mail me if you are interested in pursuing this: m t o s t a @ a l u m
n i . u c s d . e d u.
Ducky
Mason
together, and realizes how this most recent episode fits into the UPA's
25-year vision of revoking womens' suffrage.
Still, I can't help but think you have bigger fish to fry. There's
still no WNFL or WMLB or WNHL. Womens' college basketball is relegated
to ESPN 8: The Ocho, and with the exceptions of tennis and golf, that's
about the extent womens' sports coverage.
In case that was too finely put, I'll spell it out. This kind of
"discrimination" is not limited to womens' ultimate, and is the result
of economic pressures arising from the fact that people, on the whole,
DO NOT FIND IT INTERESTING. There is no agenda. There is only
preference, and it happens to be against you.
Also, you and reality seem to be at right angles. While it is clear
that the skill of individuals isn't necessarily determined by gender,
and that it's possible that men will not always be "better", I defy you
to show me how womens' and mens' ultimate are equal when evaluated by
the same metric. If your self-image is still based in the
I'm-just-as-good-as-you mentality, then you need to grow up because
wilful denial of the facts doesn't do you any favors. Man or woman, you
are never going to be the fastest, or the smartest, or the prettiest.
That's just the way things are.
Gabe
VAN HOLMES, PARNILLA, IDRIS, GRANT, DOBBS, CHASE...ROB, your name
belongs next to them baby...way to bring ULTIMATE HOME...MAN, How many
times do we need to get on this message board and stand up for this guy
before people leave him alone...that is what is wrong with the ULTIMATE
COMMUNITY...ALWAYS WANTING MORE, NEVER SATISFIED WITH WHAT THEY
HAVE...LIVE IN THE NOW~
CAN'T WAIT FOR DISC 4...
Gabe
UW ALUMNI...
Justin
was wrong to for Rob to make a disc of open division because the other
divisions were not included. If you don't have the money to change the
timing belt on your car do you stop changing the oil? No. If Rob
doesn't have the resources to cover all the divisions in Sarasota,
should he (a) not make a disc at all; or (b) be forced to cover games
that he feels would reduce his sales?
I would expect that he would go for the option that (a) interests him
most; or (b) provides the greatest return on investment.
If you step back and think about it, women's and mixed divisions are
benefitting from Ultivillage's coverage. The resources that are paid
for through his disc sales are also used to provide "clips of the day"
of the other divisions. The better his coverage of the open division,
the more legitimacy and interest in the sport as a whole will be
generated.
-Justin R
Ducky
> Still, I can't help but think you have bigger fish to fry. There's
> still no WNFL or WMLB or WNHL. Womens' college basketball is relegated
> to ESPN 8: The Ocho, and with the exceptions of tennis and golf, that's
> about the extent womens' sports coverage.
>
So...because there is inequality in other sports that's the bar we
should lower ourselves to? Here's the difference between us and the
NFL, MLB or NHL. We aren't trying to add a women's division to the UPA.
We already have one, and this is the first time that the UPA has put
the exclusive seal on a product that blatantly prefers one division to
another.
And you know what, the argument that others sports marginalize women,
is not going to deter me in the least from holding ultimate to the
higher standard that it has always operated at. I have standards I'm
not going to apologize for and I pay the same membership fees and
tournament dues that you do. I don't think I should expect anything
else than a working notion of equality. (Though I'm not naive enough to
think that things in life are equal, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't
be a goal to always strive for).
You can have all the opinions you want about which division you think
is "superior" but it isn't the point and it isn't the UPAs job to make
that distinction, so long as it the governing body for all of the
players. You said it yourself, other sports build separate
organizational structures to run their women's division, such as the
WNBA, and that's not how we are set up. If you want to go start up a
MUPA and a WUPA, then fine, they can have distinct agendas. But as it
is now, we all play under the same organization, and they have done a
really good job promoting the sport without choosing one division as
the marquee event in the past.
It's so sad to me that the idea of seeing men and women on equal
footing is so threatening to some people. I'm not claiming that the
men's and women's game are played the same way, but I'm also not
passing judgment on which way is better than the other. It's okay for
them to simply be different.
Say what you like, put me down, do all that nasty flamming stuff you
boys love to do. But I don't really feel like being bullied. So, you
all know what I think. I'm going to take cue from Idris and bow out
rather than repeat myself ad naseum for repeated flammings.
Thanks to all the folks who've already e-mailed about pursuing the
media coverage of the women's division. It's nice to know you are out
there :)
scoop
I'm sure the UPA will let you make the official woman's DVD next year
if you come up with the money.
Parinella
Ducky wrote:
> You can have all the opinions you want about which division you think
> is "superior" but it isn't the point and it isn't the UPAs job to make
> that distinction, so long as it the governing body for all of the
> players. You said it yourself, other sports build separate
At least two somewhat snarky replies:
1. Everyone is allowed to play Open.
2. Twice as many men belong to the UPA (i.e., have paid for any
products that the UPA is associated with) as do women. Should there be
twice as many of these products that are geared towards men?
> organizational structures to run their women's division, such as the
> WNBA, and that's not how we are set up. If you want to go start up a
> MUPA and a WUPA, then fine, they can have distinct agendas. But as it
> is now, we all play under the same organization, and they have done a
> really good job promoting the sport without choosing one division as
> the marquee event in the past.
Actually, the UPA _has_ more or less officially designated Masters as a
secondary division. They play their finals on Saturday and have only
12 teams at Nationals. Do you believe that this is fair?
The UPA has been inclusive by including first the Women's Division and
then the Mixed Division into the Sunday rotation as equals.
But Rob as a businessman believes there is no market anywhere close to
large enough to support himself by being "equal." If enough
"do-gooders" such as yourself harangue him or (God forbid) force the
UPA to require a "Disc 4" equivalent for each division or none at all,
then I suspect that the rest of us will suffer because Rob will decide
that it's not worth his time, and other potential entreprenuers will
see the same thing and decide not to enter the market.
Jim
Bones
I'll just bullet some important points:
1. Inequality in other sports or other arenas are not relevant to the
issue at hand. Equality isn't scorekeeping; it should be maintained
everywhere without regard to "standards" of other sports.
2. Nobody pays dues to Ultivillage, and Rob has no obligation to make
any DVDs at all. I hope he can get as much Ultimate to the world as
possible, and I appreciate the service he does to the Ultimate
community.
3. All three divisions of Ultimate are a lot of fun to watch. I can't
wait to see video footage of teams I competed against this summer.
I don't think we can address Disc Four's inclusion of only the Open
division as a moral issue. I do not believe Rob's operation is sexist.
My assumption is that he wanted to produce a DVD in time for
christmas, and he started with the Open division, and he did the best
job that he could. (I think this is a safe assumption because it's
essentially what he wrote on the post starting this thread.)
Rob, if you need any help with putting out Ultimate DVDs for the world
to see, I'm sure there are lots of men and women who would love to be a
part of the process, myself included. I also think that you have a
great deal of influence in the Ultimate community, and it might be fun
to showcase some underrepresented divisions to be proactive about the
concerns people have been raising on this forum. Just make sure you
put some Mischief high/lowlights on whatever you put out so I can
heckle my friends on that team.
Bones
P.S. I will post one mildly negative comment here, and that is to
mention that sarcasm is not an argument, nor does it ever advance any
meaningful discussion. On public forums it is generally provocative
and ineffective.
playul...@gmail.com
"airtime"; granted, they are all not getting equal airtime, but that is
due to economics. Whose fault is it that more people enjoy watching
Open than any of the other divisions? If there was no coverage of
Womens/Masters/Mixed, then we'd have something resembling a problem.
To Rob: your commitment to covering all divisions is admirable. Thank
you.
To those who complain: I guess I could suggest that you go out and film
whichever division captures your interest, go home, edit your 90 hours
of raw footage down to whatever will fit on a DVD, package it,
distribute it, and pray you break even on your labor of love, but let's
be realistic. Odds are overwhelming that no one is willing and/or able
to spend that kind of time producing another ultimate DVD. Honestly,
most people are complainers, not doers (myself included). Seriously,
somebody prove me wrong. Someone go out and do a DVD of Womens'
ultimate, someone go cover JUNIORS. Make your DVD's, spread around
awareness that there is more than one division of ultimate. Maybe as a
result of your work, some boy or girl will devote themselves to playing
ultimate instead of soccer/volleyball/basketball/lacrosse/whatever and
they'll love it. I don't know if it'll happen, but there's only one way
to find out....
Cam
New Trier, Wheaton College, MicroMachine #2
ultima...@hotmail.com
airtime too. We're dealing with economics here...Rob knows what ESPN
has known all along...and is making a good business decision to produce
a video focusing on what the majority of people are interested in
purchasing.
Keep up the great work Rob, your videos are awesome.
Mason
some respects it is my kneejerk response to blatantly condescending
behavior, he is right. I'm more than happy to argue this in a
reasonable way.
"So...because there is inequality in other sports that's the bar we
should lower ourselves to?"
No. You're hearing what you want to hear. The conclusion that there is
inequality may be correct, but it didn't follow from the argument that
I presented. Those arguments show that there is a clear difference in
results even when the playing field is realtively level (eg. the WNBA).
The WNBA continues to lose money, and it has never been for want of
advertising or prime airtime. People just don't watch it. Equal
starting points didn't produce parity, so the only things left to do
are a) force people to watch, or b) remove the NBA fro TV as well. I
hope neither of those sound like apealing options to you. A secondary
point, though admittedly somewhat beside the main one, is that your
implications of institutional chauvinism don't fairly represent the UPA
when measured against the rest of society.
"I don't think I should expect anything else than a working notion of
equality."
I'm glad to know your working notion of equality isn't just the
opportunity to play and excel, but also includes 1x the media coverage
and 2x the cost to third party businesses. Well, I said no sarcasm, so
I'm not glad at all.
"You can have all the opinions you want about which division you think
is "superior" but it isn't the point and it isn't the UPAs job to make
that distinction, so long as it the governing body for all of the
players."
You're hearing what you want to hear again. You're the one who implied
that people who choose not to watch women's ultimate are sexist and
repressive. No one is saying that men's ultimate is superior to
women's, but quite simply that they are self-evidently *different* and
not to be evaluated by the same standard. One standard of evaluation is
viewership. If you claim that the womens' game is
different-but-not-worse (and you are clearly correct), then why would
you unfairly hold them to the same standard? Let's draw the analogy in
reverse: Women's tennis has been getting better ratings than men's
tennis. Although the men's game may technically be more "athletic",
many people find it to be overpowered and less dramatic than the women.
By the different standards between them, I don't expect the men to be
viewed as much, and by no means does it make them worse.
"You said it yourself, other sports build separate organizational
structures to run their women's division, such as the WNBA, and that's
not how we are set up."
Really? I thought the PGA and USTA were the overarching authorities for
both men and women. I thought the NBA board of directors brought forth
the WNBA fully formed from the head of Zeus, and I was under the
distinct impression that the NCAA governs a whole shitload of both
gender's sports.
"It's so sad to me that the idea of seeing men and women on equal
footing is so threatening to some people."
No sarcasm, how about honesty? That is some condescending bullshit.
It's an ad hominem of the first order. Ooh, people don't watch, it's
because they must be threatened. It's an ugly truth, but they're not
scared, they're *bored*.
"It's okay for them to simply be different."
You're not saying that at all. You're saying they have to be the same,
even when they're clearly not.
"Say what you like, put me down, do all that nasty flamming stuff you
boys love to do. But I don't really feel like being bullied. So, you
all know what I think. I'm going to take cue from Idris and bow out
ather than repeat myself ad naseum for repeated flammings[sic]."
How much irony can you fit into one small paragraph? You post here,
dripping sarcasm, with accusations of preference and bias and sexism,
and then back out when someone calls you on it? And on the pretext of
not *lowering* yourself? You're even doing right there, with all that
"you boys" shit. I haven't attacked you. I haven't called you stupid,
or questioned the validity of your arguments because of your gender.
You're the ony one who's done that. But it must be us knuckle-dragging
guys, with our dick-measuring contests and hidden insecurities, that
are bullying you poor defenseless women into silence to protect our
place in the world. Have some fucking self-respect.
scoop
hominens. But you made the same mistake she did: Too long
Ian
"Clip of the Day" site? Are there as many hits on
women's/mixed/masters clips as open? Are there enough of each to
satisfy a claim that each has been represented by an "appropriate"
minimum number of clips?
Mason: It wasn't too long. It was perfect.
Mortakai
There's already #hits recorded and reported, and all the CotD's are
there for "anyone who wants to take the time to determine appropriate
representation themselves"... what am I missing?
Ian
if Rob knew and was using that knowledge to decide what divisions to
give priority to filming/producing for...
Also... I just download all of them, and watch them that way... So I've
clicked more than once on only a handful of clips... But on the
website, is there a way to keep someone from "padding the stats"
(clicking on the same clip a thousand times)? Meaning... for the sake
of discovering true viewer preference, is there a way to count the
number of "unique" visitors at each clip instead of total number of
hits?
Then again... being an ultivillage junky, I always watch every clip at
least once... Most people are probably the same...
Maybe if there were a way to *rate* the clips for entertainment
value?............
Fish
allowed a given user to click and watch one of them. One CotD would be
open Open, one would be Women/Masters/Mixed. See what the results are.
Fish
Michael George Lerner
> Fish
I'm not sure that would give him a good picture of the market. I, for
instance, would buy both an Open DVD and a Women/Masters/Mixed DVD.
All he has to do is release them and he'll get my money. On the other
hand, if forced to pick only one, I'll watch the Open clip of the day.
Story Problem of the Day:
If 50% of people who'll buy things are like me and the rest are split
evenly, and there are 100 people, he'd sell 75 Open DVDs and 75 W/M/M
DVDs. But, if he looked at the clips, he'd 75 downloads of the Open
clip and 25 downloads of the W/M/M clip. Oops. The downloads would
tell you something, but not the whole story.
-michael