Hall of Fame honors Evans, NYNY's King, shuts out Dobyns
Al
gimp
> any UPA committee members care to explain?
>
> http://upa.org/media/2009HOFInducteeclass_release
Is he 48 yet?
3Jane.
Next to Pat King and Mooney, Kenny Dobyns was the best player I ever
played with or against. The equivalent would be Ted Williams or Willy
Mays not being in the HOF. IMO.
moremail...@yahoo.com
it oughta be clearly indicated. If not, Dobyns, Glass, LVH should
have been shoo-ins, along with those who were voted in. Dare the
committee share the procedure by which only 3 gathered enough votes
this year?
ulticritic
he probably didnt pass the "spirit" criteria. you know how spirity
them spirity types are (that are envolved in the selection process)
jacob
HOF. IMO."
Well ... maybe more like Ty Cobb. Still, this is a bad decision.
"he probably didnt pass the "spirit" criteria. you know how spirity
them spirity types are (that are envolved in the selection process)"
We know he wasn't excluded for lack of playing ability.
ckerr4
the 1999 College Championships in Boulder, CO.
Classic.
Charles
--
Posted from http://www.rsdnospam.com
corey
Shit, KD should have gone into HoF for his brilliant days of RSD posts
and blogs alone. His writing is better than 99.9999% of the crap we
read about frisbee.
The UPA establishment probably always disliked Kenny. This is just
another terrible example. I know when I lived in NY at the end of
KD's frisbee days, he was running the summer league and acting as the
regional coordinator, and still no respect, just dislike, from so many
low level losers about what a jerk and cheater he was. And all said
while DoG was making terrible call after terrible call on the way to
their titles. What a fucking joke to not put KD and Pat into the hall
together.
I've actually been off RSD for weeks, and this is the shit I come back
to? No induction for Kenny? No wonder I dislike so many frisbee
players, they make decisions like this.
And don't even get me started on that other list of "top ten moments
of the decade and best players." Not even a mention of Andrew Lugsdin
or Damien Scott? But more Sockeye homerism?
Blech. The only good thing I can take from this is knowing Kenny, he
didn't give a shit what all these idiots thought when he played the
game, and i highly doubt he gives a shit now either.
Corey
Frank
Wait.
Did you just compare dobyns to Mays?
What a joke.
Nigel
http://kenneth44.blogspot.com/2008/10/my-hall-of-fame-induction.html
Barrett
get in, if he's eligible and was submitted for consideration.
Even after looking at the UPA HoF site, I still can't tell when a player
is eligible (maybe recall hearing a certain age, or 5 years after last
playing?) Reading that old blog post from KD, it does seem like he prob.
is now eligible.
Does a potential candidate have to submit or sign off on an application?
Aside from the issues around KD, too bad if controversy prevents us from
hearing more about the careers of those who did get in. I for one would
like to read more about Pat King and get links to the old photos/video,
etc., that are out there.
> The UPA establishment probably always disliked Kenny. This is just
> another terrible example. I know when I lived in NY at the end of
> KD's frisbee days, he was running the summer league and acting as the
> regional coordinator, and still no respect, just dislike, from so many
> low level losers about what a jerk and cheater he was. And all said
> while DoG was making terrible call after terrible call on the way to
> their titles. What a fucking joke to not put KD and Pat into the hall
> together.
That's a lot of terrible calls.
Out of curiosity, I looked at the make-up of the HoF voters, and it
doesn't really seem like there's much more of a Boston presence than NYC
(maybe a little more on the women's side).
Reggie Fanelli
> played with or against.
"next to" those two?
ha ha hell.
Throw
http://www.thisisultimate.com/id2.html
Just sayin' dudes.
Lance Marput
www.thisisulimate.com
Joe Seidler
Corey,
You sound like the GOP defending Sarah Palin. Instead of rants, why
not highlight KD's accomplishments and perhaps you will get others to
consider your comments.
jim
the best part about that video was the high ten at the end...classic
celebration.
jacob
yet.
http://www.thisisultimate.com/id2.html
Just sayin' dudes."
----------------------------------------
Just saying what exactly? Yes, Dobyns is short and aggressive, like
the Mini-me character in Austin Powers 2. Very funny and original of
you to make this comparison. Is there anything specific in that clip
of the '89 finals which you would cite as reason to exclude Dobyns
from the hall of fame?
jacob
rants, why not highlight KD's accomplishments and perhaps you will get
others to consider your comments."
Joe, this is not a good analogy. There is little objective proof that
Palin is a competent politician. There is plenty of objective proof
that Dobyns was a great ultimate player. There is no need to
highlight his accomplishments, as they are well known, particularly by
the hall of fame committee.
The only issues are:
1) Should the leader of the best team of all time be excluded (even
temporarily) from the hall of fame if he demonstrated poor enough
sotg?
2) If the answer to question # 1 is "yes," then was Kenny Dobyns' sotg
poor enough to warrant exclusion?
It is unclear whether Corey would answer "no" to question # 1, but it
is clear that he would not answer "yes" to both question # 1 and
question # 2.
It is a practical reality that any hall of fame selection process will
be at least partly political. The upa is just being very upfront
about the fact that the ultimate hall of fame induction process is
somewhat of a popularity contest. Its hof questionnaire closed with a
section that essentially said: "if you think this person was a jerk,
let us know right here." OK, to be fair, it asked your opinion on the
person's character, so it was also an opening to write about how nice
the candidate was- but being nice alone won't get you into the hof
while being (thought of by some as) a jerk can get you excluded, so in
the hof selection process, this question is really more relevant for
great players who have made enemies.
I don't think there is a rational way to argue every issue. It is
largely an emotional question whether the leader of the best team of
all time be excluded (even temporarily) from the hall of fame if he
demonstrated poor enough sotg, or whether his sotg was poor enough to
warrant exclusion. Sometimes you just have to rant.
Throw
"Very funny and original of
you to make this comparison."
" Is there anything specific in that clip
of the '89 finals which you would cite as reason to exclude Dobyns
from the hall of fame? "
>>>> Good question Jacob. We haven't had time to look at it all the way through in slow motion. Not sure at this point if any classic KD "wiley veteran moves" show up in the footage.
It was the final scene of Austin Powers essentially pinching a grumpy
and sending the little fella into space which sealed it for us in the
editing room here at tiu.com
Since Austin Powers had an American flag on his space suit we of
course saw him as a very usable metaphor for the UPA.
Have a good Tues. on that end.
Later,
Wayne Humaine
webmaster emeritus
"Your disc sport entertainment custodians since 2003."
jacob
show up in the footage."
Are you saying KD was a cheater?
ulticritic
>
> Blech. The only good thing I can take from this is knowing Kenny, he
> didn't give a shit what all these idiots thought when he played the
> game, and i highly doubt he gives a shit now either.
>
i think i remember him writing somthing to the tune of, "being a has
been in a sport that never was", that kinda sums that up
ulticritic
wasnt that the most professional peice EVER done on the sport of
ultimate......that actually featured it as a real sport? seems like
that would make him MORE eligible????
J. Invencio
J. Invencio
3Jane.
> Had LIGHTS & DARKS not been invented in 1989?
Darks were lights + sweat. Hey, it was the stone age.
gimp
Stone Age!? We were using Discrafts for a couple of years. NY was
using a stack.
Pretty modern to me.
ulticritic
> Had LIGHTS & DARKS not been invented in 1989?
>
> J. Invencio
arent lights and darks just a variation of shirts and skins.......that
has been around forever.
ulticritic
and aside from some snazzy unies and the uoa it STILL IS the dark ages
with tis sport
ulticritic
oh, no doubt, NYNY was WAAAAAY ahead of there time. not only
stategically but also in the way they approached the sport.......which
was the same way most athetes approach most sports.....ASD A REAL
SPORT!!!!.....which shouldnt be confused with the spirity way a team
like DoG approached it. Of course befor NYNY split up DoG wasnt EVEN
CLOSE to approaching a national championship. all their shit is by
default
Pasquale Anthony Leonardo
> Corey,
> You sound like the GOP defending Sarah Palin. Instead of rants, why
> not highlight KD's accomplishments and perhaps you will get others to
> consider your comments.
Joe, did you not read our book?? Everyone knows KD is a HoF lock and
not having him in the hall of fame on first vote means the hall of
fame is a sham. it also means that Pat King will likely refuse his
induction. Mooney should too.
Joe Seidler
Tony,
That was not my point. I was giving Corey advice on how to make his
point. Butt out...
Pasquale Anthony Leonardo
> Tony,
> That was not my point. I was giving Corey advice on how to make his
> point. Butt out...
Well there's your mistake right there, trying to give Corey advice...
lol.
But seriously, Corey is right and he doesn't need to justify his
opinion and his convictions by trying to convince others with
evidence. If he *wanted* to convince others, then you have a point
(but a small one, since ken's exploits have been discussed in this
forum ad infinitum, and there would be no need for Corey to list,
again, for the thousandth time, ken's qualifications). But like ken
himself, i doubt Corey is too concerned with convincing others of his
opinion, i believe he merely wants to express himself.
Me, on the other hand, would like to tell anyone reading this that
without evidence of specific examples of Dobyns' wrongdoing or
transgressions (ala Pete Rose, or, in the future, Barry bonds et al.)
that his non-acceptance into the HoF immediately and unquestionably
disqualifies the HoF as a serious endeavor.
I would encourage others to read "The First Four Decades" and read
about Ken's history (and Pat King's and just about everyone mentioned
in conjunction with the (and I use quotes on purpose here) "Hall of
Fame.")) The book can be read for free on Google Books. Here is a
link:
It's really too bad that the Hall committee (apparently made up of
past inductees, a staggering percentage of them from the MidAtlantic
region, New Jersey and Boston, traditional rivals of Dobyns and New
York -- I count 10 of 30 from NJ/Boston and an additional 3 from the
MA) chose to vote against Ken. I strongly believe they did a
disservice to the sport, one even worse than the perceived disservice
perpetrated by Dobyns.
Tony
Jim Mallon
<mistermalcont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's really too bad that the Hall committee (apparently made up of
> past inductees, a staggering percentage of them from the MidAtlantic
> region, New Jersey and Boston, traditional rivals of Dobyns and New
> York -- I count 10 of 30 from NJ/Boston and an additional 3 from the
> MA) chose to vote against Ken. I strongly believe they did a
> disservice to the sport, one even worse than the perceived disservice
> perpetrated by Dobyns.
>
> Tony
Let's bottom-line this thing: Dobyns belongs in the Hall and has from
Day One. Until he's in, the HoF is pretty much a pointless exercise.
IIRC only three people even made it in this year? PK, God and Andy B?
Is that right? Because there are plenty of other folks besides Kenny
that are getting also being unfairly denied (Mike Glass, Cliff
Marhoffer, Doug the Bum, Buzz Ellsworth all come to mind). Given that
it only started just a few years ago, the Ultimate HoF is going to be
playing catch-up for a mighty long time if only 3 (or 5 or even 7)
people get in from year to year. They've got to open the doors on this
thing or lots of old school Ulti players are going to be left out in
the cold.
That said: Dobyns goes in. And I think it would be classic (and
classy) if PK declines to accept until Kenny gets the nod. They should
go in together.
3Jane.
> classy) if PK declines to accept until Kenny gets the nod. They should
> go in together.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least, I hope someone clues Pat in
about this thread, I'd like to get his take. I realize I've made the
post about Dobyns being up there with King and Mooney as the best I'd
played with or against 2 or 3 years in a row now and I agree with the
above posters, it seriously deligitimizes the HoF to have this
discussion every year.
Reggie Fanelli
---OVER RATED!
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psych!
Jim Mallon
Nicely done! You've also neatly illustrated KD's vertical (not to
scale).
Throw
Frank
> ty cobb bump
Finally, someone says it like it is.
Ty Cobb was a thug and a cheater (not to mention a murderer).
KD was also a thug and a cheater.
ulticritic
>
> Joe, did you not read our book?? Everyone knows KD is a HoF lock and
> not having him in the hall of fame on first vote means the hall of
> fame is a sham.
the mans got a point
------------------------------------------
it also means that Pat King will likely refuse his
> induction.
wow, never thought about that.
-----------------------------
>Mooney should too.
isnt he already "in". he's also one of the upa loyalist too, isnt
he? i doubt he'd take such a stand. he and ken were pretty fierce
advisaries too, no?
ulticritic
>
> That said: Dobyns goes in. And I think it would be classic (and
> classy) if PK declines to accept until Kenny gets the nod. They should
> go in together.
that would be "without precidence". NYNY wer always ones to play by
their own rules.......and pat and ken WERE NYNY, so..........
this will be interesting to watch unfold.
ulticritic
>
> Ty Cobb was a thug and a cheater (not to mention a murderer).
>
> KD was also a thug and a cheater.
was ty cobb kept out of the hall because of this???? from all i know
about him (which is nuthin) he was a glorified baseball player from
back in the day. but then again baseball dosent have some spirity,
goody two shoes theme, so i dont see a valid comp here......other than
ty cob not being kept out of the hall for being a hard core and
aggressive player. and aside from all that bullshit no one can deny
that he made all those around him better, more intense and smarter
players like no one else in the game.
Frank
No, but Pete Rose was.
The question is, did KD ever bet on NYNY games?
Jim Mallon
Ty Cobb was never kept out of the Hall of Fame. He was a badass, hard-
nosed baseball player with some less than redeeming qualities. For a
lot of reasons it's a weak comparison (one being that KD is actually a
decent human being, which Ty Cobb wasn't), but Cobb was never kept out
and Kenny shouldn't be either. In fact, I'm pretty sure Ty Cobb was a
CHARTER MEMBER of the baseball HoF. Going strictly off memory now, but
the first year (1934? maybe it was '39?), baseball inducted 9 or 10
guys who'd played long before the HoF was opened...because they needed
to be in there for it to be legit.
Regarding Frank's question: My guess would be that Kenny always bet on
NYNY to win.
Jim Mallon
>
> - Show quoted text -
To the best of my knowledge Ty Cobb never murdered anyone. He was an
unabashed racist and I think he took a bat to a disabled fan once, but
he never killed anyone.
ulticritic
>
> - Show quoted text -
did ANYONE ever bet on ANY ultimate games????
chigger
and wouldn't consider him a thug or a cheater. He was a pain in the
ass but no more so than countless other players from across the
country.
Thre worst thing that I saw Kenny do was kick over my teams water jugs
after one of our guys skied him in the endzone. It was like watching a
Godzilla movie. He apologized almost immediately and told us to help
ourselves to the legendary Mrs. Dobyns buffet.
Byron
> did ANYONE ever bet on ANY ultimate games????- Hide quoted text -
ulticritic
>
> I don't think there is a rational way to argue every issue. It is
> largely an emotional question whether the leader of the best team of
> all time be excluded (even temporarily) from the hall of fame if he
> demonstrated poor enough sotg, or whether his sotg was poor enough to
> warrant exclusion. Sometimes you just have to rant.
but isnt there a sequential order that should be adheared to......and
a matter quantifying/comparing the of degree, "of fame".......of the
competeing inductees????. I'd say without a doubt kd was the most
famous player in the game from 87 to 93, plastered all over the upa
mags and shit. defintiely more "famous" that pat. Maybe kd got more
of the sttention. SO.......based on the fact that moons "fame" came
primarily AFTER kds' shouldt kd get the nod first.......AND since the
degree of domination by kd AND pk were such that moons was a simple
afterthought then donsent that mean there is a certian degree in which
kds' and pks' domination and "fame" EXCEEDS moons?......and shouldnt
the honoring also therefore PRECEED IT??? I mean, wouldnt this be
basic sequential logic to the process that trumps any kind of
"subconcious" bias?
Frank
Yes and no. No, I never personally played against KD but all it takes
is a few minutes to watch him on the Cheap Seats video to see what
kind of player he was.
In that short clip, he demonstrated his complete lack of respect for a
pivot foot and in one sequence, he threw through the mark committing
and offensive foul and angrily called a foul on the marker. John
McEnroe's got nothing on KD.
> He was a pain in the ass but no more so than countless other players from across the country.
That's exactly my point. In a sense, I've played against countless
KDs in my 4500 games of Ultimate. I just played against one last
Sunday. Fouled the crap out of me, traveled every time he had the
disc (I never bothered to call it) and yet he had the balls to call
traveling on one of my best moves because he'd never seen the move
before.
It's been a nightmare the past 25 years or so as Uglimate emerged and
a dichotomy naturally developed within the community. In the early
80's, the culture seemed to be a little more unified as players more
or less bought into things like mutual respect and self governance but
by the end of the decade, more of a 'vigilante' mentality crept upon
the scene as frustrations regarding the lack of fair and level
competition overwhelmed many players who wanted to play the game at
the highest level. Entire teams were known for their over aggressive
and illegal play. Out here it was the Santa Barbara Condors who were
guaranteed to foul the crap out of you everytime you played. It
changed the whole standard for the game for the worse.
KD is the archetype of this player. By the mid-nineties. Ultimate
was on life-support. The majority of the players were in their
thirties as there were simply not very many young players playing the
game (in the Open division). Those players who liked the culture but
hated Uglimate, began playing coed ultimate, which further decimated
the field of quality players and teams. Decades of eroding and
varying standards led to longer and more visceral arguments on the
field whenever someone had the temerity to make a call.
To say Ultimate had no penalties is wrong. The ultimate penalty was
what you you were inflicted with by your opponent when you made a
call. Not only were you forced to suffer the indignation of being
publicly chastised on the field by these dickheads, you were certain
to be the recipient of a 'make up call' that they felt they were
entitled to at the hands of your original call. Tweak the tweaker as
one Double Happiness asshole (Brian 'Bisquit' Morris) put it. "Don't
you dare make a call against us or risk suffering our wrath".
Does any of this sound familiar Byron? It should to anyone who played
competitive Ultimate in the 90's.
I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not KD should belong in
the hall. The UPA has been a joke for so long that this slight seems
almost perfect. The UPA sat idly by in the 80's and 90's went by and
did nothing about this growing division in the sport between the
minority of fiercely competitive players and the majority of
anticompetitive players (the fox guarding the henhouse?). Anyone
amongst the UPA 'officials' were all goodie goodie and didn't see how
the KDs of the world were wrecking the game or what they could do
about it. But the game needed to be wrecked.
I mean, isn't this the reason KD was not elected? That he was a thug
and a cheater? What other possible reason could there be? It simply
wasn't an oversight, like they could have claimed last year. This had
to be deliberate.
I say that the KD archetype belongs in the hall for one simple
reason. If it weren't for the intensity of players like him and their
constant pushing of the envelope between what the could or couldn't
get away with on the field, we probably would have never had
observiators. Let him in.
The UPA fucked up back in the 80s when it had the chance to fix the
game and it continues to fuck up now, putting band aid on top of band
aid on top of band aid. As an organization, they don't even recognize
their own culpability in the creation of the thugs and cheaters that
were a natural byproduct of an artificial set of rules that were
designed specifically to discourage true competition from happening.
They wash their hands of it and say it's the competitors' fault for
not being perfect gentleman on the field and upholding spirit and
instead being guilty of conduct detrimental to the growth of the
sport. Instead of recognizing that their rules the cause of the
ensuing maliase, they offer observers.
Now you've got the worst of both worlds. Watered down ultimate
without the contention and animosity but with the same basic stupid
rules that led to the problems in the first place and the UPA none the
wiser.
You can't have one without the other. KD and the UPA complimented
each other. KD for UPA HOF!!! Peas in a pod.
Throw
i generally agree with:
I think the whole concept of "Hall of Fame" is goofy (and I'm NOT
talking about Frisbee HOF, believe it or not).
The player's records speak for themselves. What about the guy who is
the CLOSEST to being in the HOF, but isn't? Is that his fault, or a
result of the HOF standards? (There are a lot of "near" guys in
baseball, and a lot of guys IN who shouldn't be.)
Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame? Bowlers HOF?
Pete Rose hasn't been let in yet, nominally because he bet on games,
but really because he was a prick. Bonds will have the same problem;
it doesn't matter that steroid use wasn't even BANNED when he was
doing it, what matters is, he didn't give sports reporters interviews
when they wanted them. The system is bogus.
Hank out
www.thisisultimate.com
Knappy
been 2 months since anyone posted anything.
http://upa-board.blogspot.com/
would love to hear a defense of this omission
ulticritic
>
> Yes and no. No, I never personally played against KD but all it takes
> is a few minutes to watch him on the Cheap Seats video to see what
> kind of player he was.
which is what? I mean, i didnt see anything diferent/negitive said by
him that i havent har other ahtletes of other sports say. In fact, i
always found it a bit refreshing that kd and nyny didnt subscribe to
the spirity/festive aspect of ultimate but rather the "real sport"
approach.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In that short clip, he demonstrated his complete lack of respect for a
> pivot foot and in one sequence,
isnt that like saying you can but a lable on henry for the lack of
respect he displayed with is famous double hand ball. i think your
being a bet techno weenieish here. i mean, would you also negitivly
judge labron due to the crab walk he gets away with from time to time?
--------------------------------------------------------------
he threw through the mark committing
> and offensive foul and angrily called a foul on the marker. John
> McEnroe's got nothing on KD.
you got somthing against JM too?
-----------------------------------------------------------
>
> > He was a pain in the ass but no more so than countless other players from across the country.
maybe he wouldnt have been such a pain in the ass had the sport had
refs????? maybe THATS the lesson to be learned here
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> That's exactly my point. In a sense, I've played against countless
> KDs in my 4500 games of Ultimate. I just played against one last
> Sunday. Fouled the crap out of me, traveled every time he had the
> disc (I never bothered to call it)
THEN YOU ENABLED IT!!!! so its partially your own fault. as a
player, just like as a ref, ya gots to nip that shit in the bud
----------------------------------------------------------
and yet he had the balls to call
> traveling on one of my best moves because he'd never seen the move
> before.
but you knew that would likely happen before you even stepped on the
field. hate the game.....dont hate the playa
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It's been a nightmare the past 25 years or so as Uglimate emerged and
> a dichotomy naturally developed within the community.
thats not kds fault.......thats the upas fault. i think kd just did
what most intellegent humans do in that situation....which is to
adjust and take advantage of a weak rule system. Like you said, there
were a ton others that did the same.....KD was just one of the best.
He was also smart enough to surround himself with great talent.
---------------------------------------------------
In the early
> 80's, the culture seemed to be a little more unified as players more
> or less bought into things like mutual respect and self governance but
> by the end of the decade,
end of the decade?????? wasnt uglimate coined in 86......after widy
city, NOT NY NY, spiked their trophy. All the top teams wer agro back
then. nyny just emerged as the best of em.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
more of a 'vigilante' mentality crept upon
> the scene as frustrations regarding the lack of fair and level
> competition overwhelmed many players who wanted to play the game at
> the highest level.
well, after NY solidified their sport i think the only frustration was
that no one could even give em a game (save the occasional boston
battle.......even then, boston never showed up when it counted)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Entire teams were known for their over aggressive
> and illegal play. Out here it was the Santa Barbara Condors who were
> guaranteed to foul the crap out of you everytime you played.
what about tsunami???? didnt thaty have some blond haired dude that
would travel like crazy every time he pivoted???? I mean, i know the
all travel a lot out there but this guy was over the top.
-------------------------------------------------------------
It
> changed the whole standard for the game for the worse.
but its not ny ny that sets policy reguarding standards. this seems
like the doing of some kind of administrative body
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> KD is the archetype of this player. By the mid-nineties. Ultimate
> was on life-support.
it usually not as much the acetype of players that hinge on a sports
sucess as much as it is the archetype of the administration thats "in
charge" of the sport. kd and ny might have ruled the sport......but
they werent "in charge". This point you are trying to make reminds me
of charles barkleys take on him being a role model.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The majority of the players were in their
> thirties as there were simply not very many young players playing the
> game (in the Open division). Those players who liked the culture but
> hated Uglimate, began playing coed ultimate, which further decimated
> the field of quality players and teams.
and this is kds' fault?
------------------------------------------
Decades of eroding and
> varying standards led to longer and more visceral arguments on the
> field whenever someone had the temerity to make a call.
sorry jack, but what lead to that was a flawed arbitration system. If
it wasnt gonna be a guy named kd being the poster boy for bad boy
elite ulti it would have been some other smart fella.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To say Ultimate had no penalties is wrong. The ultimate penalty was
> what you you were inflicted with by your opponent when you made a
> call.
that sound like a pretty gay pentalty to me
---------------------------------------------------
Not only were you forced to suffer the indignation of being
> publicly chastised on the field by these dickheads, you were certain
> to be the recipient of a 'make up call' that they felt they were
> entitled to at the hands of your original call.
and again.....this is the fault of the system.......not those clever
enough to game it
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tweak the tweaker as
> one Double Happiness asshole (Brian 'Bisquit' Morris) put it. "Don't
> you dare make a call against us or risk suffering our wrath".
i guarantee he never said that shit when facing ny......whioch i think
those guys did back in 93 worlds finals........a game in which i'm
pretty sure they got emarassingly spanked.
again though, your frustration here stems from the system that allows
and requires players to be refs. take that dynamic away and you got a
whole new sport. or at least ya got to approach it differently
---------------------------------------------------------
>
> Does any of this sound familiar Byron? It should to anyone who played
> competitive Ultimate in the 90's.
competitive ultimate in the 90's.................yawn!
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not KD should belong in
> the hall. The UPA has been a joke for so long that this slight seems
> almost perfect.
you DO have a point here.
-----------------------------------------------------
The UPA sat idly by in the 80's and 90's went by and
> did nothing about this growing division in the sport between the
> minority of fiercely competitive players and the majority of
> anticompetitive players (the fox guarding the henhouse?). Anyone
> amongst the UPA 'officials' were all goodie goodie and didn't see how
> the KDs of the world were wrecking the game or what they could do
> about it. But the game needed to be wrecked.
you speak of it as NY wrecked it though.......where as i say it was NY
that almost SAVED IT/ took ultimate into real sport status. If the
administration then was smart they would have done things to better
feature the approach that NY was taking and capitalized on it. The
sport was wrecked from the begining from when they decided not to make
more efforts to incorporate refs and go with their spirity new games
theme.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I mean, isn't this the reason KD was not elected? That he was a thug
> and a cheater?
of course it is.......just think if he had moons carreer on boston as
a 7 time champion by default and it was moons'es ny teams that were
making minced meat out of kds boston team. Or lets say kd had the
image of team mate walter van somthing. he would have been a shoe
in. the upa LOVES a boyscout.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What other possible reason could there be?
NONE!
------------------------------------
It simply
> wasn't an oversight, like they could have claimed last year. This had
> to be deliberate.
had to be
---------------------------------------------
>
> I say that the KD archetype belongs in the hall for one simple
> reason. If it weren't for the intensity of players like him and their
> constant pushing of the envelope between what the could or couldn't
> get away with on the field, we probably would have never had
> observiators. Let him in.
but the observiator evolution didnt move at all durring his reign. i
dont se any corelation there.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The UPA fucked up back in the 80s when it had the chance to fix the
> game and it continues to fuck up now,
dont ya mean back in the 70's. didnt they have justa as good as a
chance (MAYBE BETTER) to "fix" the sport.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
putting band aid on top of band
> aid on top of band aid. As an organization, they don't even recognize
> their own culpability in the creation of the thugs and cheaters that
> were a natural byproduct of an artificial set of rules that were
> designed specifically to discourage true competition from happening.
thats because they were convinced that sotg would make angels outa all
of us........."dumb chickens"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> They wash their hands of it and say it's the competitors' fault for
> not being perfect gentleman on the field and upholding spirit and
> instead being guilty of conduct detrimental to the growth of the
> sport. Instead of recognizing that their rules the cause of the
> ensuing maliase, they offer observers.
so then you admit......its the games' fault, NOT the playas' (or, in
this case, kd)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now you've got the worst of both worlds. Watered down ultimate
> without the contention and animosity but with the same basic stupid
> rules that led to the problems in the first place and the UPA none the
> wiser.
and dont forget about the sally ass coed division that you meantioned
was another result.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You can't have one without the other.
the sad irony. must be hard to swallow for your average SZ. is that
the case there jim p? (dont act like you aint following this thread)
----------------------------------------------------
KD and the UPA complimented
> each other. KD for UPA HOF!!! Peas in a pod.
i agree in his hof inclusion......but i see him and the upa as
oppisite extreems.......hardly two peas in a pod.
ulticritic
> seems like this would be a good time for a post to the UPA blog...it's
> been 2 months since anyone posted anything.
now THAT has got to be the funniest thing ive herd on this site in
some time. i dont see the upa touching this issue (in any kind of
public forum) with a ten foot pole
ulticritic
> More later in the weekend...but this from a sports geek friend...which
> i generally agree with:
>
> I think the whole concept of "Hall of Fame" is goofy (and I'm NOT
> talking about Frisbee HOF, believe it or not).
not much of a sports geek if he cant see the relavence in honoring a
sports best athleats.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The player's records speak for themselves.
YEA!!!! but they generally do that in a SPECIFIC PLACE DIPSHIT. and
those places are know as Halls.......of fame.
----------------------------------------------------------
What about the guy who is
> the CLOSEST to being in the HOF, but isn't?
THATS THE POINT OF HOF'S DUMBASS........to seperate those that ARENT
THE CLOSEST from those that are. dont be such a tool about it
----------------------------------------------------------
Is that his fault, or a
> result of the HOF standards? (There are a lot of "near" guys in
> baseball, and a lot of guys IN who shouldn't be.)
and this is one of those situations, no? difference being that kd
isnt in the "near" category as much as he's in the "shoe in"
catigory..........and then there is the obvious gay ass spirity theme
that you traditionalists and the upa covet so thats a whole different
ball of wax.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Pete Rose hasn't been let in yet,
but it wasnt because of his grit and intensity.......where as with ken
it obviously is.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nominally because he bet on games,
> but really because he was a prick.
think again cock breath. and how was he a prick??? because he ran
your ass over if you were blocking the base path......or because he
spiked the ball after each inning when he caught the out as a first
base man.......or did he just not smile enough? How in the fuck do
you even get that he WAS a prick in the first place. did he just not
fit the boy scout image you and your SZ buddies have congered up????
------------------------------------------------------------
Bonds will have the same problem;
> it doesn't matter that steroid use wasn't even BANNED when he was
> doing it, what matters is, he didn't give sports reporters interviews
> when they wanted them. The system is bogus.
bonds is a different story altogether. and a big reason bonds catches
so much shit is because he could neve diliver in crunch time. as a
bucs fan it was hard for me to support bonds arrogant ways whan he
couldnt back it up in october. Winning has a way of making people
forget about past trangressions in THE REAL SPORTS WORLD. i guess
those guys pick hoif inductees for THIS SPORT just arent as effected
by results
ulticritic
>
> > Does any of this sound familiar Byron? It should to anyone who played
> > competitive Ultimate in the 90's.
>
> competitive ultimate in the 90's.................yawn!
maybe i should have clarified........competitive ultimate in the mid
to late 90's.............yawn
Jim Mallon
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Tweak the tweaker as one Double Happiness asshole (Brian 'Bisquit'
Morris) put it."
Just another playa whose jock Frank couldn't carry. [And PS...For
what it's worth, I have a "Spirit of the Game Award" t-shirt from '95
Nationals in Birmingham that has Bisquit's picture on it -- no lie --
good ol' #8 posterizing some poor sap.]
jacob
Frank
> Biscuit did not cheat.
Did I say he cheated?
He bragged about how good he was at upsetting players who made calls
against his team. He called it Tweak the Tweaker.
There's nothing in the rules that says you can't do this and he was
one of the best.
jacob
Frank
> Should there be a rule against this?
In a sense, there already is. It's called Spirit of the Game.
If we didn't have to rely on this rule, none of this insanity would
have ever happened.
Instead of the sort of vigilante style justice, there would be a third
party justice system.
With a third party justice system, behavior deemed inappropriate could
be kept in check.
Without it, we have the complete absence of boundaries.
Separation of church and state makes sense. When you mix your
religion with your judicial system, you muddy the waters.
ulticritic
no arguing with this logic
jacob
Frank
> Would this be like the anti-taunting rules in the NBA and NFL?
There already is an anti-taunting rule in the 11th edition. Heckling
is ok, taunting is specifically not ok.
But rather than taunting, I'd call what I'm referring to as emotional
button pushing.
I think there's a difference between trash talk/bravado and
intentionally destabilizing your opponent using the exact boundariless
system that allows you to get away with it in the first place.
That's just crazy-making. You have both a culture that is insane as
well as a group of individuals how comprise the culture who are also
insane, turning the system on its ear by literally driving each other
crazy and then laughing about it when someone goes berserk on the
field.
Who's at fault here? The person who exploits the lack of boundaries
or the system itself that was built without boundaries?
Blame is irrelevant. What's important is awakening and you can't
awaken as long as you refuse to recognize there is a problem.
When you are allowed to tweak your opponent at an emotional level
without any fear of penalization, there is something seriously
wrong.
You can defend Biscuit all you wand but anyone who played Double
Happiness knew those guys were the biggest group of dickheads on the
west coast and what they did went well beyond taunting and certainly
went well beyond cheating.
You simply can never reach a balanced equilibrium when you have the
inmates running the asylum. You need a system of checks and
balances. You can add all the observiators you want to the game,
you'll never achieve equilibrium until you blow the whole thing up and
start over from scratch.
ulticritic
>
> Who's at fault here? The person who exploits the lack of boundaries
> or the system itself that was built without boundaries?
the system.........DEFINITELY the system. as for people, its only
natural that they exploit.......hence the existance of cops, judges,
laws, jails, lawyers, LAW ENFORCEMENT SYSTEMS!!!!!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Blame is irrelevant.
thats a tough one. certianly there has to be accountability on the
part of the administrators that MAKE the system, no?
--------------------------------------------------------------
What's important is awakening and you can't
> awaken as long as you refuse to recognize there is a problem.
oh thy recognize a problem........and THAT problem to them is "players
NOT having control". they just have everything ass backwards with how
they administrate this sport.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> When you are allowed to tweak your opponent at an emotional level
> without any fear of penalization, there is something seriously
> wrong.
which means there has been somthing seriously wrong with this sport
since its inception
---------------------------------------------------------
>
> You can defend Biscuit all you wand but anyone who played Double
> Happiness knew those guys were the biggest group of dickheads on the
> west coast and what they did went well beyond taunting and certainly
> went well beyond cheating.
well, whatever they "did" it sure didnt help em when they faced NYNY
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You simply can never reach a balanced equilibrium when you have the
> inmates running the asylum. You need a system of checks and
> balances.
all SZ's think they need is sotg............"dumb chickens"
----------------------------------------------------
You can add all the observiators you want to the game,
> you'll never achieve equilibrium until you blow the whole thing up and
> start over from scratch.
but does that mean it has to become dischoops? cant a modern form of
ultimate and dischoops coexist?
Frank
>
> but does that mean it has to become dischoops? cant a modern form of
> ultimate and dischoops coexist?
Dischoops IS the modern form of Ultimate.
jacob
about ...
Refs and dischoops. At least the first of these is probably
indirectly connected to the hof blunder.
ulticritic
most definite.