WSJ article
jim.pa...@upa.org
Group, I'll take some of the flak for this article. I spent a lot of time
talking to Ross Kerber, the author. He knows some people who people summer
league in Boston and got wind of the Observers discussions happening on rsd.
One of my tasks as a UPA Board member is to look after the Observer system,
so I was involved in discussions on the matter, and someone told Ross to call
me, and we spent a lot of time going over the situation. I told him as much
as possible about the game and the bad apples and the incidents and the good,
and invited him to Fools to see a tournament. While it's not perfect, I
think it does portray the sport as it might appear. That is all I shall say
for now. Jim Parinella
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Tom Coffin
Yeah! - after reading it - the article didn't SUCK at all!
It was awesome!
hey UPA! don't bother a rebuttal...
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 jim.pa...@upa.org wrote:
> Group,I'll take some of the flak for this article. I spent a lot of time
> talkingto Ross Kerber, the author. He knows some people who people summer
> league in Boston and got wind of the Observers discussions happeningon rsd.
> One of my tasks as a UPA Board member is to look after theObserver system,
> so I was involved in discussions on the matter,and someone told Ross to call
> me, and we spent a lot of timegoing over the situation. I told him as much
> as possible about thegame and the bad apples and the incidents and the good,
> andinvited him to Fools to see a tournament. While it's not perfect,I
> think it does portray the sport as it might appear. That is all I shallsay
> for now.Jim Parinella
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
>
---===<<<<<<<((((((([[[[[[[*]]]]]]])))))))>>>>>>>===---
Larry Amon
What does everyone think of this artical, would you say it's accurate? I
wouldn't know most of my time playing ultimate has been playing with
Intervarsity teams which is a Christian orginazation and most time it's a
pretty good game. But there have been problems even there. One of our
players was hit in the neck while jumping for a disk at a tournament at
Va. tech. while I don't think it was intentional it seemed like it was
somewhat malicious to me and he had to be taken off the field on a
stretcher to a nearby hospital. I have recently been wanting to get more
seriously involved with the sport but the article in the WSJ doesn't seem
to flattring and I wouldn't think that stopping in the middle of a game
for beer or to smoke pot would help the sport. Any thoughts?
Larry Amon
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Phil Rowe wrote:
> Here is the article as I received it from the author...please
> note...Mike Gerics coached the UNCW women in 96 not the ECU women as is
> reported.
>
> Gets Down and Dirty,
> And Some Cry Foul
> ---
> Shouting, Spitting, Spiking
> And Swearing Bring Calls
> For Referees With Teeth
> ----
> By Ross Kerber
> Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal
>
> The Wall Street Journal via Dow Jones
>
> After a score by the Port City Slickers in a big ultimate-frisbee game
> against
> the Seattle Sockeye team two seasons ago, an exultant Slicker spiked the
> disk,
> prompting angry protests from Sockeye defender Ed Avery.
>
> What happened then made frisbee history. After players including
> Slickers
> veteran Mike Gerics joined the argument, Mr. Avery emerged from the
> crowd wiping
> his forehead.
>
> "He spit on me!" a disbelieving Mr. Avery shouted, putting the finger
> on Mr.
> Gerics.
>
> Mr. Gerics later received a one-year suspension that began last
> summer. It was
> the first such ban, and to many of the sport's devotees, a disturbing
> sign of
> the times.
>
> "In the old days, teams . . . would just throw it deep and beat you
> with their
> athleticism," says Kevin Givens, an organizer at the University of
> California at
> Santa Cruz. "Now, they'll intentionally foul you, cussing the other
> players.
> That's not in the spirit of the game."
>
> Mike O'Dowd, a veteran of San Francisco's powerful Double Happiness
> team, says
> he may retire rather than play with new teammates who fight and talk
> trash. "The
> team I started with was a kinder, gentler team," says Mr. O'Dowd. These
> days, he
> says, "any big game becomes a matter of ill will."
>
> Founded in the antiauthoritarian 1960s, ultimate frisbee is having an
> identity
> crisis. Once played by a few iconoclasts at New Jersey high schools, the
> disk-hurling game patterned loosely after touch football has grown into
> a sport
> of about 65,000 competitors, with amateur leagues, a national tournament
> and a
> governing body -- the Ultimate Players Association -- that dreams of TV
> contracts and Olympic recognition.
>
> But to purists, the growth has attracted too many people who cheat,
> argue and
> hack, leading to proposals for something the sport has never had --
> full-fledged
> referees. Until now, officiating has generally been limited to top
> tournament
> games -- and only when both sides agree to it. Even then, the officials
> usually
> have no power to intervene on their own and can make calls only when
> asked by a
> player.
>
> It's time to stop "sociopathic behavior" on the playing field, says
> Jim
> Parinella, who plays for the national-champion Death or Glory team in
> Boston and
> who leads the call for more referee power.
>
> Full-on refereeing faces an uphill battle in a sport where breaks for
> beer are
> still common and teams favor names like We Smoke Weed, Lady Godiva and
> Bovine
> Intervention. The ultimate mainstream isn't ready for prime time -- and
> proud of
> it. Most people who play the game can't even bring themselves to use the
> word
> "referee." They prefer "observer."
>
> The antiref crowd also notes that the level of bad behavior is still
> far from
> that in sports where players choke coaches and bite off bits of ear.
> They also
> worry that more officiating would destroy the game's tradition of
> sportsmanship,
> which includes a strong honor code whereby players are encouraged to rat
> on
> themselves, and a rule book that officially decries a "win at all cost"
> mentality.
>
> But self-regulation doesn't always work. At last year's
> world-championship
> tournament in Vancouver, Canada, Kenny Dobyns of the Westchester County
> (N.Y.)
> Summer League All-Stars body-slammed Sockeye star Jon Gewirtz --
> supposedly in
> retaliation for obscene taunts. With Mr. Gewirtz pinned, Mr. Dobyns
> whispered in
> his ear, "Don't let this get out of hand."
>
> At the women's national championship in Sarasota, Fla., last October,
> two
> players were benched by their captains to curtail their cursing and
> pushing. A
> year earlier, as coach for East Carolina University at the Women's
> Collegiate
> Championships, Mr. Gerics, the spitter, alleged that Sarah Savage, coach
> of the
> University of California team, was instructing her players to make
> illegal
> throws. Ms. Savage says that Mr. Gerics circled her team's huddle,
> hurling
> obscenities.
>
> "He says, `No wonder you only have eight players, you're a hag and you
> chase
> everyone away,'" recalls Ms. Savage. She also says the ECU players were
> abusive
> on the field. "The women were literally screaming, blood vessels
> rupturing in
> their faces," Ms. Savage says. Mr. Gerics denies he used obscenities or
> behaved
> inappropriately.
>
> UPA head observer Vic Kahmi says more-powerful judges also might deter
> recklessness. Mr. Kahmi says he recently witnessed a game in Princeton,
> N.J.,
> where a North Carolina college player dived for a flying disk he had no
> chance
> of catching and crashed into the intended receiver, dislocating the poor
> fellow's shoulder. "Was there intent to maim? I don't think so, but he
> wasn't
> playing under control," says Mr. Kahmi.
>
> When played as designed, ultimate frisbee combines speed, grace and
> powerful
> hurling with a grueling pace. Seven-player teams try to pass the frisbee
> down
> the 70-yard field and across the opponent's goal line. Possession
> switches when
> the disk is intercepted, thrown out of bounds or touches the ground.
> Tackling,
> running with the disk or stripping it away aren't allowed during
> matches, which
> typically are played to a score of 15 or 21 and last about 90 minutes.
> Receivers
> try to break free for the overhand toss known as the "hammer" or the
> Hail Mary
> bomb called the "huck." Hurlers must pass the disk within 10 seconds
> according
> to a "stall count" called out loud by defenders.
>
> Leagues are springing up in such places as Denver and Los Angeles,
> adding to
> established groups in Silicon Valley, Washington, D.C., Boston and
> elsewhere.
> With so many talented athletes, top tournaments like one in
> Fredericksburg, Va.,
> earlier this month include more pirouetting throws than a season at Shea
> Stadium.
>
> But the lack of referees also slows games. A match between a Carnegie
> Mellon
> University alumni team and the We Smoke Weed squad from New York
> featured as
> much negotiation as scoring. A typical pause came when Carnegie Mellon's
> Calvin
> Lin stopped a stall count to suggest that a defender had stepped on his
> foot.
>
> Another delay came when New York's Mr. Dobyns, now playing for the
> Weed team,
> called timeout to pass around cans of Budweiser to his teammates. Some
> also
> shared a joint the size of a small flashlight. Afterward, the alumni
> team pulled
> away to prevail 12-5. "We're too stoned to argue!" yelled one Weed
> player after
> an opponent called a hacking foul.
>
> Some ultimate graybeards trace the rise of aggressive behavior to Mr.
> Gerics,
> who as an undergraduate at the University of North Carolina at
> Wilmington and
> later at East Carolina, helped bowl over and heckle opponents en route
> to
> collegiate ultimate titles in 1993, 1994 and 1995. The tactics toppled
> Ivy
> League frisbee dynasties because, as Mr. Gerics puts it, "most ultimate
> players
> were kind of geeky intellectuals. East Carolina, it's not the hardest
> school.
> We're bad, we're rednecks."
>
> After graduating, Mr. Gerics joined the Port City Slickers in
> Wilmington, for
> whom he played in the infamous spitting game. Mr. Gerics, who wouldn't
> admit his
> infractions at first, now apologizes. "I'm pretty embarrassed about it,"
> he
> says.
>
> But while serving out his suspension, he has found a new love-ultimate
> officiating at local college tournaments in North Carolina. Players, he
> says,
> rarely dispute his calls because "I wouldn't try to get in an argument
> with me."
>
> WSJviaNewsEDGE
> :PAGE: A1
> :SUBJECT: LIFE WSJ SPRT USA
> Copyright (c) 1998 Dow Jones and Company, Inc.
> Received by NewsEDGE/LAN: 4/24/98 2:14 AM
>
>
Larry Amon
a m o n @ u m b c . e d u
http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~amon
The truth is out there.
Tom Coffin
Totally accurate!
ultimate is an extreme sport
people get totally intense playing ultimate
-
like everything else - It's what YOU make of it!
go ho bitch and don't bogart that joint my friend...
_____________________________________
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Larry Amon wrote:
> What does everyone think of this artical, would you say it's accurate? I
> wouldn't know most of my time playing ultimate has been playing with
> Intervarsity teams which is a Christian orginazation and most time it's a
> pretty good game. But there have been problems even there. One of our
> players was hit in the neck while jumping for a disk at a tournament at
> Va. tech. while I don't think it was intentional it seemed like it was
> somewhat malicious to me and he had to be taken off the field on a
> stretcher to a nearby hospital. I have recently been wanting to get more
> seriously involved with the sport but the article in the WSJ doesn't seem
> to flattring and I wouldn't think that stopping in the middle of a game
> for beer or to smoke pot would help the sport. Any thoughts?
>
> Larry Amon
>
_______
U:(=I:)
IRONMAN
Brian Amer
jim.pa...@upa.org wrote:
>While it's not perfect, I think it does portray the sport as it might >appear. That is all I shall say for now.
>
> Jim Parinella
>
I'm sorry to see you write this, Jim.
The article got one thing right, though, Observers = Referees. Is this
where we're headed? Should it be?
Skippy Jammer
I too was used as a resource for the article (obviously) and accept
partial responsibility for the subject at hand. Ultimate has evolved far
beyond it's grass roots levels but still suffers from an identity crisis.
On the one hand you have an incredibly exciting sport that leaves first
time observer's (no pun intended) agape at the skill, athleticism and
beauty of the sport. There should be a proper arena for that and for that
reason I feel game observers are not only warranted but essential. That
does not mean that players should refrain for taking responsibility for
their actions. There should still be an underlying respect for the sport,
your team and your opponent.
On the other hand, it has been and probably always will be in alternative
sport by nature. The party hearty and run till you drop attitude is part
of the very fiber of the sport. At some point those two paradigms are
bound to collide. I think the article did a fine job all things
considered.
Kevin "Skippy" Givens
--
******** Shred or Die ********
Tom Coffin
All the more reason that teams should have 3-4 people
designated to observe games once they are ousted from
a tournament - for example semi losers will ref the final!
Mark W Brehob
Larry Amon (am...@gl.umbc.edu) wrote:
: What does everyone think of this artical, would you say it's accurate? I
: wouldn't know most of my time playing ultimate has been playing with
: Intervarsity teams which is a Christian orginazation and most time it's a
: pretty good game. But there have been problems even there. One of our
: players was hit in the neck while jumping for a disk at a tournament at
: Va. tech. while I don't think it was intentional it seemed like it was
: somewhat malicious to me and he had to be taken off the field on a
: stretcher to a nearby hospital. I have recently been wanting to get more
: seriously involved with the sport but the article in the WSJ doesn't seem
: to flattring and I wouldn't think that stopping in the middle of a game
: for beer or to smoke pot would help the sport. Any thoughts?
: Larry Amon
I've never made it beyond open regionals (and usually do not-so-well there)
however I would claim that:
- Some games are horrible.
- Most games are fine.
- Some are VERY spirited.
There are teams which just don't know/understand the rules on contact.
I've seen more than one post here where people argue "But I didn't
land on the player until _after_ I touched the disc." Or "But
it was light contact- if he can't catch after I bump his arm its
his problem". Both are fouls. While some contact is allowed that contact
may not be dangerous nor interfer with a catch. It seems like those players
who don't understand the rules can be found on the best and the worst teams.
Observers able to give yellow and red cards are fine with me.
Heck if they want to make line calls, great. But the foul-contest
rules are a huge part of ultimate. The red and yellow cards should only
be given if:
A player is highly dangerous
A player ignores spirit/basic sportsmanship.
Extended arguments about a foul or contest.
Spitting, kicking, fighting and intentional fouls would be a part of the
2nd item.
Mark
EO21
Oh no! Smoking pot and drinking beer at the April Fools Tourney. The world is
coming to an end. Lighten up people or light up people. Enjoy the spring!
YEAH WEED! -eo
Joseph Bowbeer
Tom Coffin wrote:
> Yeah! - after reading it - the article didn't SUCK at all!
>
> It was awesome!
I agree. It's the lack of refs that keeps it in under control - and enhances the
theater. I think it says a lot for the spirit of the game that one can have an
extreme, in your face, un-refereed athletic competition with displays of spitting and
cursing and taunting, and yet remain remarkably free of brawls. Things are under
control at the level that counts.
PS - Get it online from the source at
http://wsj.totalsports.net/news/980424/980424frisbee.html
--
Joe Bowbeer
Phil Rowe
Here is the article as I received it from the author...please
reported.
Gets Down and Dirty,
whom he played in the infamous spitting game. Mr. Gerics, who wouldn't
admit his
Kama Siegel
Larry Amon wrote:
> What does everyone think of this artical, would you say it's accurate? I
> wouldn't know most of my time playing ultimate has been playing with
> Intervarsity teams which is a Christian orginazation and most time it's a
> pretty good game. But there have been problems even there. One of our
> players was hit in the neck while jumping for a disk at a tournament at
> Va. tech. while I don't think it was intentional it seemed like it was
> somewhat malicious to me and he had to be taken off the field on a
> stretcher to a nearby hospital. I have recently been wanting to get more
> seriously involved with the sport but the article in the WSJ doesn't seem
> to flattring and I wouldn't think that stopping in the middle of a game
> for beer or to smoke pot would help the sport. Any thoughts?
Interestingly enough, the worst injuries I've ever [personally] seen during
ultimate play were caused by the players themselves: I myself broke my wrist
diving for a catch; Paul Fields of Albuquerque Anarchy tore a hole in his
duodenum (look it up) by trapping his fist under his abdomen while diving for
a catch; my best friend did the whole shoulder dislocation thing while diving
for a catch; and a nameless rookie who never came out again (for obvious
reasons) bashed his spleen open while diving for a catch. And this was all
during pickup!
I have never been to Nationals, but at [NW] Regionals, and even at [Big Sky]
Sectionals tempers get pretty high. This may be due to bad blood than
anything else though. However, I do think the "next generation" -- i.e. those
who are in college right now -- are learning a more aggressive game than, say,
Kenny Dobyns et al. learned.
-KamaSue
Moscow/Pullman Ultimate
Tom Coffin
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
what is this rec.joke.disc??????
NO ONE HIRED YOU TO THINK! YOU'RE FIRED!!!!!
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Kama Siegel wrote:
> However, I do think the "next generation" -- i.e. those
^^^^^
> who are in college right now -- are learning a more aggressive game than, say,
> Kenny Dobyns et al. learned.
>
> -KamaSue
> Moscow/Pullman Ultimate
>
>
>
>
Moses_...@brown.edu
In light of the recent article in the WSJ, I was pretty disturbed.
Personally, I find myself touchy about the sort of publicity that
Ultimate gets, and questions of how much it makes to sense to compromise an
accurate portrayal of the game for increased public recognition (from
corporate sponsorship to a phone call from your parents) seem to be springing
up more and more. In the case of this article, I'd definitely say that the
portrayal of Ultimate, at least to the extent that I've seen it, was pretty
inaccurate, and to have this put up on such a public stage disturbed me.
What the article fails to mention is that Ultimate isn't wholly populated
either by "greybeards" who are afraid of the word "referee" or spit/obscenity-
hurling wildmen. The dichotomy that this article sets up makes it sound like
you're on one side or the other, and that, in the process of shuffling people
to one category or another, Ultimate's tearing itself to shreds. I really
don't think it's true at all: it seems to me, instead, that the vast number
of Ultimate players lie somewhere in the middle ground, as people who play
both for the competition they find on the field _and_ the culture that they
find off it.
It's possible to perform on a high level and maintain a high level of
Spirit without getting your butt whipped every game, and many teams do just
that. Case in point: DoG won the Spirit award at Worlds '96 in Sweden,
where they wore referee jerseys, sending the message that, in Ultimate, every
player's a ref. They even dispensed mock red cards to their own players when
they made swilly calls, I'm told. The point of all this is that the middle
ground really does exist even on the very highest levels of play, and to see
such a glaring untruth about Ultimate perpetuated on the national stage really
worries me.
Just my two cents...
Moses Rifkin
Brown Ultimate
Tom logic
First, I'd like to support my colleague eo. And second, let me add my five
cents:
cent 1: Tom Coffin is a really funny cynic, although too prolific (maybe he's
at the NCSA and has nothing to do all day but watch the computers whirr)
cent 2: Ultimate can exist with diferent rules and different levels. In fact,
for practical purposes it already does. ALL top sports have different rules and
levels of conduct for Elite Play (NBA, NFL, NHL, MLBA) for College, for High
School, and for pick-up. A good example is the "Call your own foul" version of
pick-up basketball. That's never going to go anywhere. It's a staple of
basketball in all its other incarnations.
cent 3: Just in case you were wondering about the WSJ quote from Mike O'Dowd,
who should certainly not be regarded as the reactionary conservative decrying
the "kindler and gentler" Ultimate play of the past. That is clearly an inside
joke. Windy City was, by most accounts, a bunch of jerks. I think O'Dowd was
poking fun at the George Bush quote from 1990, and with it any Ultimate
supporter duped into believing such a time existed when it was all Peace and
Harmony in the top levels of Ultimate.
cent 4: The WSJ author did a lot of research and wrote a very fine article,
especially since he usually covers banks. His piece focuses on one angle of
Ultimate. There are many other angles to be covered yet. Quit kvetching, go out
there and write about the other wonderful aspects of our sport!
cent 5: Actually, I'm a poor man and only have 4 cents.
Hopeful Prognostication:: Eastern Finals: Pacers over Bulls in 7. Notre Dame
men over Wisconsin in Central Regional backdoor. Notre Dame women slips into #2
slot over Indiana in Central Region.
Stuart A Smalheiser
Phil Rowe (des...@digitaurus.com) wrote:
: Here is the article as I received it from the author...please
: note...Mike Gerics coached the UNCW women in 96 not the ECU women as is
: reported.
I think it's about time yo stop referring to yourself in the third
person, Stu doesn't like this. You are not Bob Dole...
--
Stu Smalheiser
UPenn '98